Is it really this near impossible to get into med school?

[EngtoMedHopeful]

I feel like everyone who finds out I'm pre-med views me as this delusional little girl with 5-year-old dreams of being a doctor who has yet to figure out that she doesn't actually stand a chance of becoming a doctor. I can't tell you how many times I've been schooled on the importance of having a backup plan because "the majority of those who begin on this path don't make it to the end of this path." The thing is, I'm a post-bacc pre-med student, not a biology/chemistry/neuroscience/microbiology/whatever major who tacked "pre-medical" onto her student status because it was the cool thing to do. I don't have an alternative purpose for being at my school. My entire purpose for being there is to take these classes so that I'll be eligible to apply to med schools. If I don't get into med school, then these classes won't really be a ton of use to me in the future career-wise. Of course, I could consider using them toward a second bachelor's in dietetics or trying to get into PA school or something later, but right now, I don't really have a backup plan to give people because I re-enrolled in school with a very specific purpose.

I have a friend who was pre-med as an undergrad, and she had a ton of pre-med friends as well. She's now going back to school for accounting. I was talking to her today, and she said that the reason she never applied was that she saw every single one of her friends fail at making it to med school. Her one friend was a microbiology major with a 3.8 GPA, 30 MCAT, thousands of volunteering hours, and experience working in a hospital, and she didn't get in anywhere. Hearing stories like that makes me feel like I'm doing all of this for nothing. If a microbiology student with impressive stats and ECs can't get in, I can see why people think I'm delusional thinking I'm going to get in with my English degree and pretty unimpressive ECs (since I'm getting a late start on them and don't have much time given that I work full-time.)

Is it really as near impossible to get into med school as everyone outside of SDN seems to think? I thought I would stand a pretty fair chance with my 3.92 undergrad GPA as long as I did well in my pre-reqs, scored well on the MCAT, and got in at least some shadowing hours and 100 or 200 volunteering hours. It seems like a lot of people who are much more competitive than me don't make it, though.

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[sazerac]

It isn't impossible, but your friends-of-friends that are only turning in MCAT scores of 30 are at a disadvantage compared to their competition. But this isn't about them, it's about you.

You can get in to medical school with an interesting background (my school accepted an English PhD last year), but you still have to dominate that MCAT. The median MCAT for acceptance was 33 this year, and you'll want to beat that as well as have a compelling reason why you want to become a physician next.

The big hurdle is getting an acceptance to a medical school. You want to put everything you have into getting that first acceptance. Everything you have. Once you have an acceptance, the rest of the ride to becoming a physician has a ridiculously high success rate (like 98% or something) so your risk of failure goes way down.

There is a whole separate forum in here for "what are my chances" type questions, but it is near impossible to analyze a candidate without an MCAT score.

Good luck!

 

[EngtoMedHopeful]

Huh. I always thought a 30 was pretty competitive. Not 35+ competitive, but I thought it was enough to guarantee your acceptance somewhere if you cast a wide enough net.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Huh. I always thought a 30 was pretty competitive. Not 35+ competitive, but I thought it was enough to guarantee your acceptance somewhere if you cast a wide enough net.

It was.... 3+ years ago maybe. It's become a lot tougher recently.

 

[EngtoMedHopeful]

It was.... 3+ years ago maybe. It's become a lot tougher recently.

I see. :/ Will be interesting to see how the new MCAT changes things.

 

[cabinbuilder]

It's about applying smartly, broadly, and accepting the fact that most folks don't get into Harvard. It's about having a great essay and sticking out amongst the masses so the adcoms want to meet you. I had a friend who did not get in with a 3.9 GPA in biochem and a 35+ MCAT - she doesn't interview well. I got in with a 2.7 undergrad GPA with a 3.9 post bacc GPA and a 24 MCAT and I attribute it to a great wicked essay and having an interesting story. Just remember it's all about the TOTAL package, not just the numbers. You being an English major should work in your favor and I would hope you can write a good story plus you would be outside the norm.

 

[DrMidlife]

Is it really as near impossible to get into med school as everyone outside of SDN seems to think?

It's HARD to get in. People get subjective with what "hard" means.

I went through an app cycle before I ever heard of SDN, and knew absolutely nothing. Then when I came to SDN I at least had a larger body of info to work with, and now I'm one of those anecdotes I warn people against taking too seriously.

You have to take EVERY opinion with a grain of salt. When you hear the SAME opinion maybe 3 times from people who aren't otherwise nuts, then pay attention.

I thought I would stand a pretty fair chance with my 3.92 undergrad GPA as long as I did well in my pre-reqs, scored well on the MCAT, and got in at least some shadowing hours and 100 or 200 volunteering hours.

You're in great shape. But your list sounds very cookie cutter. I challenge you to attack your premed career with a spirit of relentless curiosity. LEARN. Bring more to the table than the average premed. For example, start actually reading the news about healthcare every day from at least one reputable source such as NYT/WSJ.

It seems like a lot of people who are much more competitive than me don't make it, though.

Again, people get subjective with what "competitive" means, beyond stats.

You probably need to have higher standards for the people you talk to about med school admissions. If I had a dime for every cocky opinionated premed classmate who talked a great game, and then ended up nowhere, I'd have LOTS of dimes.

Dunno where people are seeing 33 as the median score you "have to beat". The trend doesn't jump like that year to year. It's still 31-32 average for matriculants. (Don't bother getting all median-vs-average with me, I don't care.) Californians and others in crowded states will need to do better than the national average. https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/2013factstable17.pdf

Best of luck to you.

 

[theseeker4]

I feel like everyone who finds out I'm pre-med views me as this delusional little girl with 5-year-old dreams of being a doctor who has yet to figure out that she doesn't actually stand a chance of becoming a doctor. I can't tell you how many times I've been schooled on the importance of having a backup plan because "the majority of those who begin on this path don't make it to the end of this path." The thing is, I'm a post-bacc pre-med student, not a biology/chemistry/neuroscience/microbiology/whatever major who tacked "pre-medical" onto her student status because it was the cool thing to do. I don't have an alternative purpose for being at my school. My entire purpose for being there is to take these classes so that I'll be eligible to apply to med schools. If I don't get into med school, then these classes won't really be a ton of use to me in the future career-wise. Of course, I could consider using them toward a second bachelor's in dietetics or trying to get into PA school or something later, but right now, I don't really have a backup plan to give people because I re-enrolled in school with a very specific purpose.

I have a friend who was pre-med as an undergrad, and she had a ton of pre-med friends as well. She's now going back to school for accounting. I was talking to her today, and she said that the reason she never applied was that she saw every single one of her friends fail at making it to med school. Her one friend was a microbiology major with a 3.8 GPA, 30 MCAT, thousands of volunteering hours, and experience working in a hospital, and she didn't get in anywhere. Hearing stories like that makes me feel like I'm doing all of this for nothing. If a microbiology student with impressive stats and ECs can't get in, I can see why people think I'm delusional thinking I'm going to get in with my English degree and pretty unimpressive ECs (since I'm getting a late start on them and don't have much time given that I work full-time.)

Is it really as near impossible to get into med school as everyone outside of SDN seems to think? I thought I would stand a pretty fair chance with my 3.92 undergrad GPA as long as I did well in my pre-reqs, scored well on the MCAT, and got in at least some shadowing hours and 100 or 200 volunteering hours. It seems like a lot of people who are much more competitive than me don't make it, though.

Your view from friends is very skewed. Not getting in with a 3.8 and a 30 MCAT means your friend's friend was doing something wrong. A 3.8 and a 30 is quite good, and unless there is some big red flag, would have garnered some acceptances. The same for every other story of people with GPAs closer to 4.0 than to 3.5 and >30 MCATs who don't get in; they all either did something wrong, or there is more to the story that you don't know. I am sure there is a very small handful of these people who truly have plain old bad luck, where they applied early, with no red flags, to a good number of schools including safeties, and weren't accepted anywhere, but for every applicant who has that type of luck, there are dozens who were rejected for a concrete reason, whether you are aware of the reason or not.

Things these people could be doing wrong include applying late, applying to schools they have low chances at admission to, applying to too few schools, etc. Things that can be wrong with their applications that you don't know include criminal records, institutional actions on their records, lack of ECs, lack of diversity in their ECs, bad LORs, and probably the most under-diagnosed; failure to perform well at interviews. Simply put, anyone like this who failed to make it to med school did something, or multiple somethings, wrong.

It is not so much of a crap-shoot that someone with decent grades, decent MCAT, decent ECs and positive LOR's has a poor chance at admission. Your plan sounds good to me, and unless you have some aspects of your application that will give adcoms pause, you are not facing "near impossible" chances. Basically, don't let your impression of others' rejections despite your perception of their application strength keep you from pursuing this. Follow the good advice on this site from the well-established members, especially the Adcoms who post here, and you will have a better-than-average chance at acceptance.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Dunno where people are seeing 33 as the median score you "have to beat". The trend doesn't jump like that year to year. It's still 31-32 average for matriculants. (Don't bother getting all median-vs-average with me, I don't care.) Californians and others in crowded states will need to do better than the national average. https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/2013factstable17.pdf

I think people are getting it from this post which references the MSAR. Not sure what the actual info in the MSAR says though, I did not buy this year's version:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/2015-msar-released.1063767/

 

[DrMidlife]

A freakout in pre-allo? There's a shocker.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I feel like I have the opposite problem. My friends and family always tell people I am going to be a doctor and I have to constantly remind them that between 50-60% of applicants dont get in. I dont think its impossible though. If it helps, the odds are actually a bit better for non science majors.

 

[QofQuimica]

I feel like everyone who finds out I'm pre-med views me as this delusional little girl with 5-year-old dreams of being a doctor who has yet to figure out that she doesn't actually stand a chance of becoming a doctor. I can't tell you how many times I've been schooled on the importance of having a backup plan because "the majority of those who begin on this path don't make it to the end of this path." The thing is, I'm a post-bacc pre-med student, not a biology/chemistry/neuroscience/microbiology/whatever major who tacked "pre-medical" onto her student status because it was the cool thing to do. I don't have an alternative purpose for being at my school. My entire purpose for being there is to take these classes so that I'll be eligible to apply to med schools. If I don't get into med school, then these classes won't really be a ton of use to me in the future career-wise. Of course, I could consider using them toward a second bachelor's in dietetics or trying to get into PA school or something later, but right now, I don't really have a backup plan to give people because I re-enrolled in school with a very specific purpose.

Who are the people saying this to you? Do they know much about nontrads and/or have insider information based on serving as an adcom? My experience has been that most premed advisors do not know how to advise nontrad students. The more nontraditional you are, the more this is a problem. I applied at age 30 with a 4.0 GPA for my PhD, a 43 MCAT, and no UG grades/GPA/credit hours from my hippie LAC. I was teaching gen chem and organic chem; most of my students were premeds. You know what advice I got from the friendly university premed advisor? Retake the prereqs for grades. Seriously. She thought I should go from teaching chemistry classes to premeds one semester, to taking chemistry classes alongside my students the next.

I have a friend who was pre-med as an undergrad, and she had a ton of pre-med friends as well. She's now going back to school for accounting. I was talking to her today, and she said that the reason she never applied was that she saw every single one of her friends fail at making it to med school. Her one friend was a microbiology major with a 3.8 GPA, 30 MCAT, thousands of volunteering hours, and experience working in a hospital, and she didn't get in anywhere.

Well, there's only one sure way to definitely fail, and that's to never apply.

Hearing stories like that makes me feel like I'm doing all of this for nothing. If a microbiology student with impressive stats and ECs can't get in, I can see why people think I'm delusional thinking I'm going to get in with my English degree and pretty unimpressive ECs (since I'm getting a late start on them and don't have much time given that I work full-time.)

Stop right here. Comparing yourself to other people is a game that you will always lose, every time. There is nothing in this world that you are the very best at. That's ok. You can still be a competitive applicant without being perfect. Adcoms aren't looking for perfection in applicants.

Is it really as near impossible to get into med school as everyone outside of SDN seems to think? I thought I would stand a pretty fair chance with my 3.92 undergrad GPA as long as I did well in my pre-reqs, scored well on the MCAT, and got in at least some shadowing hours and 100 or 200 volunteering hours.

No, it's not near impossible. Granted, there are no guarantees with med school admissions any more than there are guarantees with anything else. But there are certainly many things you can do to greatly increase your odds of getting into medical school. The reason why most people follow certain tried and true paths is because they are more likely to work. Try to take things one step at a time instead of worrying about it all at once. Right now, you are early on in the process. Your job this semester is to ace your post bac classes (or as close to it as possible), and to get some clinical experience. That's just two things. You can do two things. Don't even think about the rest of it right now.

It seems like a lot of people who are much more competitive than me don't make it, though.

I'm going to pretend you never even wrote this sentence. See above.

 

[Law2Doc]

..., but I thought it was enough to guarantee your acceptance somewhere if you cast a wide enough net.

There are no guarantees. There have been people with absurdly good numerical scores who didn't get into med school. Why? Because that's only part of the analysis. If you think a 3.X/30 with X00 hours of volunteering guarantees you admission into med school you will be sorely disappointed. It's a very competitive process focused as much on "good fit" and putting together an intellectually diverse, gifted class. Programs are trying to put together an interesting class with varied perspectives. The days when set numbers got you in ended 20 years ago. look at the numbers as more if a cut off than something that actually guarantees admission. You will see people who think they are entitled to admission just because they have great numbers crash and burn every year.

 

[Silent Cool]

I feel like everyone who finds out I'm pre-med views me as this delusional little girl with 5-year-old dreams of being a doctor who has yet to figure out that she doesn't actually stand a chance of becoming a doctor. I can't tell you how many times I've been schooled on the importance of having a backup plan because "the majority of those who begin on this path don't make it to the end of this path." The thing is, I'm a post-bacc pre-med student, not a biology/chemistry/neuroscience/microbiology/whatever major who tacked "pre-medical" onto her student status because it was the cool thing to do. I don't have an alternative purpose for being at my school. My entire purpose for being there is to take these classes so that I'll be eligible to apply to med schools. If I don't get into med school, then these classes won't really be a ton of use to me in the future career-wise. Of course, I could consider using them toward a second bachelor's in dietetics or trying to get into PA school or something later, but right now, I don't really have a backup plan to give people because I re-enrolled in school with a very specific purpose.

I have a friend who was pre-med as an undergrad, and she had a ton of pre-med friends as well. She's now going back to school for accounting. I was talking to her today, and she said that the reason she never applied was that she saw every single one of her friends fail at making it to med school. Her one friend was a microbiology major with a 3.8 GPA, 30 MCAT, thousands of volunteering hours, and experience working in a hospital, and she didn't get in anywhere. Hearing stories like that makes me feel like I'm doing all of this for nothing. If a microbiology student with impressive stats and ECs can't get in, I can see why people think I'm delusional thinking I'm going to get in with my English degree and pretty unimpressive ECs (since I'm getting a late start on them and don't have much time given that I work full-time.)

Is it really as near impossible to get into med school as everyone outside of SDN seems to think? I thought I would stand a pretty fair chance with my 3.92 undergrad GPA as long as I did well in my pre-reqs, scored well on the MCAT, and got in at least some shadowing hours and 100 or 200 volunteering hours. It seems like a lot of people who are much more competitive than me don't make it, though.

1) I love pre-meds. They crack me up.

2) As Q said below (above?)....you will never know unless you try. You posted your GPA. Do you really think that you won't get in? Seriously? Your GPA is OTH--Off Tha Hook. C'mon, get it together. I'm sure you can pull a ~30 MCAT. If you need help studying, PM me and I can tell you *exactly* what to do and *exactly* how to take the test. I have been through probably every test-prep material out there.

3) If you want to get in: A) apply to as many schools as possible and, B) don't stop believin'. Seriously--just re-apply if you don't get in. If your first MCAT sux well then the answer is simple...TAKE IT AGAIN! Not rocket science, here (no offense).

4) If you are in your early 20's don't fret too much--there is practically no opportunity cost during those years, so re-applying a few times ain't that big-a'-deal.

 

[CanePreMed]

I don't have a source to back this up, but I heard that this year there were 49,300 applications for 19,000 seats (allopathic). It's pretty damn hard, but nowhere near impossible.

 

[Shjanzey]

thought I would stand a pretty fair chance with my 3.92 undergrad GPA as long as I did well in my pre-reqs, scored well on the MCAT, and got in at least some shadowing hours and 100 or 200 volunteering hours.

Nice humble brags. 7/10

 

[EngtoMedHopeful]

I appreciate the input, everyone. I have certainly had the experience where I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall trying to get my advisor to get what "post-bacc" means. She keeps trying to advise me like I'm pursuing a second bachelor's in biology. I hate going against her advice, but I'll never get out of undergrad if I do everything she wants me to do! Man, advising you to retake courses you had already aced and tutored others in takes the cake, though.

No, posting my GPA was not a humble brag. Literally almost anyone can earn a 3.9+ as a liberal arts major. It's not like science and math where, if you don't understand a concept, you're screwed. If you have the time to put in and are willing to invest it, a 3.9+ or even a perfect 4.0 isn't that unattainable for most English majors, in my opinion. The only way I see a high GPA being out of reach for an English major is if he or she just completely lacks any and all writing skills. People who know they can't write don't typically major in English, however.

 

[petyr_baelish]

Yes, you'll get in. There, there.

 

[milski]

I think people are getting it from this post which references the MSAR. Not sure what the actual info in the MSAR says though, I did not buy this year's version:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/2015-msar-released.1063767/

It says that the median MCAT for accepted (not matriculated) candidates is 33.

 

[DrMidlife]

Hello, future doctors? Mentioning numbers and stats and percentages with no references is beneath you. Stop it with the "I heard" or "everybody says" or linking an SDN post that has further unlinked claims. Cite your sources.

AAMC has data tables that are incredibly easy to use. If it's so darned compelling to say something numerical, then it's worth spending 30 seconds verifying your claim.

1. www.aamc.org
2. data and analysis
3. FACTS

 

[petyr_baelish]

It says that the median MCAT for accepted (not matriculated) candidates is 33.

Yep.

And there is some debate in that thread whether or not the people with 40 MCATs who have 10+ acceptances are being counted 10 times.

 

[68PGunner]

I love horror stories from pre-med kids. I will tell you one thing. You know yourself best. Don't let others tell you what you can or can't do.

As for the nonsense spewing from failures out there, I would just advise you to close your ears and focus on your endpoints. Failures tend to exxagerate their accomplishment to excuse for their undoings. Don't listen to them. I just giggle when So-So exaggerates about how he/she fails to do this while having these stats in the stratosphere. It's just for laugh. If you want a realistic gauge, I would advise you to look up the average matriculated GPA and MCAT for schools that you are interested in. The averages for allo schools are about 3.6 cgpa, 3.6 sgpa, and 30-31 MCAT. These numbers are just to get you through the door for II. Your ECs are going to make a huge difference for that final acceptance letter.

It's the same bs for kids exxagerating the difficulties of certain classes. At the end of the day, it's all about your intellectual aptitude, time management, and the amount of work you put into. Non-trads have an advantage over trads in that we have to juggle other priorities in life, such as job and family, while performing well in school. Nowadays, I just chuckle when kids in pre-med classes complain about having a two-hour lecture with a 2-hour lab afterward in the evening. That's just one prime example. That's the difference in mentality between us and them: they are soft.

That's the end of my rant.

 

[Frostbite22]

Its hard to judge based on others stories without hard evidence. If you listened to my one friend she would tell you up and down how unfair the process is and blah blah blah. When really she applied to only top tier schools with very sub par stats. What would you expect her outcome to be?

Same with your friends they may have had 3.8's and a 30 MCAT but where did they apply? Only Harvard? Hopkins? Because I can pick out 20 schools to apply to this cycle and could probably guarantee I'd get an auto reject because I'm just not competitive enough or don't have close ties with the state.

 

[milski]

Hello, future doctors? Mentioning numbers and stats and percentages with no references is beneath you. Stop it with the "I heard" or "everybody says" or linking an SDN post that has further unlinked claims. Cite your sources.

AAMC has data tables that are incredibly easy to use. If it's so darned compelling to say something numerical, then it's worth spending 30 seconds verifying your claim.

1. www.aamc.org
2. data and analysis
3. FACTS

What are you claiming? The current edition of MSAR does show 33 as median value for accepted candidates. Feel free to get an account and verify it.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

It says that the median MCAT for accepted (not matriculated) candidates is 33.

Yep.

And there is some debate in that thread whether or not the people with 40 MCATs who have 10+ acceptances are being counted 10 times.

The data in the MSAR is for accepted students. If high MCAT applicants were accepted to 10 different places, they were accepted 10 times, then they were used for all 10 places where the numbers were reported.

Something I want to point out is that I only provided the link as to where I think the idea is coming from. I think I said I do not know what it says, so I am not agreeing or disagreeing with it and I made no mention of mean or median. BUT, DrMidLife is correct that better sources need to be used in general and not haphazardly displayed. I checked and I still have access to the MSAR online edition (2014) so here is what it has for Harvard:

OP, the take away message from this thread is:
1. score as high as possible on the mcat
2. nothing is a guarantee, not a 30, a 35, nor a 40.
3. dont compare yourself to others, this is a valuable lesson the earlier learned the better (seriously it's an action you think you have learned but find yourself doing the opposite anyways).
4. you have to believe you can get in if you want the adcoms to believe it too

 

[CanePreMed]

Hello, future doctors? Mentioning numbers and stats and percentages with no references is beneath you. Stop it with the "I heard" or "everybody says" or linking an SDN post that has further unlinked claims. Cite your sources.

AAMC has data tables that are incredibly easy to use. If it's so darned compelling to say something numerical, then it's worth spending 30 seconds verifying your claim.

1. www.aamc.org
2. data and analysis
3. FACTS

Jesus, I didn't realize that SDN was a journal that required citations. Please reach behind you and remove the stick from your rear end. If you absolutely must know where I got those numbers from, I saw them on the Wake Forest thread.

"Wake Forest just posted this on their Facebook page:

FACTOID FRIDAY - 8,091 MD applications received for entering 2014. Only 541 interviewed for the 120 places in the class. The class is full presently and we are waiting for those with multiple acceptances to make decisions which is encouraged by May 15. Nationally there are 49,232 applications for 19,000 places! Insanely, crazy times!"

 

[milski]

The data in the MSAR is for accepted students. If high MCAT applicants were accepted to 10 different places, they were accepted 10 times, then they were used for all 10 places where the numbers were reported.

There is a contact on the MSAR "Contact us" page, I emailed them, asking about how the median is calculated. Maybe we'll get a definitive answer.

 

[68PGunner]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think a 40% acceptance rate is ridiculous. It sounds reasonable.

 

[Stoptheclot]

I don't have a source to back this up, but I heard that this year there were 49,300 applications for 19,000 seats (allopathic). It's pretty damn hard, but nowhere near impossible.

Here's the MD stats from October: 20,055 accepted out of 48,014 applying. ~42% applicants are accepted.

And yes, as stats become more competitive, applicants are having to find ways to stand out even more than usual. "I am fascinated by medicine!" and "I love helping people!" with competitive stats simply don't cut it anymore. It seems the trend is that med schools are seeking applicants who understand how life sucks: the need to experience pain, struggle and perseverance.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

There is a contact on the MSAR "Contact us" page, I emailed them, asking about how the median is calculated. Maybe we'll get a definitive answer.

OHHH I think I understand what people are suggesting. For the national median, I believe that a single test taker's score would be used ONCE. I thought that was kind of obvious Not that every place a person would be accepted would then count an additional time for calculating the national median.. hmm. that can't be what is being suggested eh?

 

[milski]

OHHH I think I understand what people are suggesting. For the national median, I believe that a single test taker's score would be used ONCE. I thought that was kind of obvious Not that every place a person would be accepted would then count an additional time for calculating the national median.. hmm. that can't be what is being suggested eh?

What else could it be? It seems wrong but anything else I can think of is even more wrong.

 

[LupaCupcake]

It is your life, not your friends. If everyone had it in them to be a doctor, then we would have a lot more physicians running around.... My advice is as follows; stop focusing on the negative, who cares what your friends think that failed or gave up? Remember that, they FAILED or GAVE UP. They could have improved scores or did more EC or tried to make themselves a better candidate, instead they gave up. Do not accept no as an answer, just keep at it and don't let haters pull you down. All you need is a one percent chance to get in, that is enough to give you hope and a reason to fight.

 

[mavric1298]

What else could it be? It seems wrong but anything else I can think of is even more wrong.

It's more rational to think that every acceptance handed out counts, so a 40 applying to 10 schools with 8 being accepted would be 8 40's. Think about it, each school is reporting the numbers on who they accepted. Do you really think AMCAS is going to vlookup, cross reference, and remove all the duplicates? If they did, that wouldn't be accurately representing the data. They always chose to show acceptance data, not matriculation data. Matriculation would only show it once.

Secondly, the 42% doesn't distinguish re-applicants. Some schools have very large rates of acceptance for reapplicants, having almost or more then the same number of first time applicants. So that does change how you should view that number as well. Sometimes metadata isn't the best to look at, just as viewing each schools acceptance rates of 2-3% ins't representative of your actual changes of getting in.

 

[milski]

I received an answer from AAMC. The national median is calculated by counting applicants only once, regardless of how many acceptances they have.

 

[milski]

It's more rational to think that every acceptance handed out counts, so a 40 applying to 10 schools with 8 being accepted would be 8 40's. Think about it, each school is reporting the numbers on who they accepted. Do you really think AMCAS is going to vlookup, cross reference, and remove all the duplicates? If they did, that wouldn't be accurately representing the data. They always chose to show acceptance data, not matriculation data. Matriculation would only show it once.

Secondly, the 42% doesn't distinguish re-applicants. Some schools have very large rates of acceptance for reapplicants, having almost or more then the same number of first time applicants. So that does change how you should view that number as well. Sometimes metadata isn't the best to look at, just as viewing each schools acceptance rates of 2-3% ins't representative of your actual changes of getting in.

More rational or not, according to AAMC, that is not the case. A 40 with 8 acceptances is still counted as one 40. They don't need to do too much to remove the duplicates - it's enough to pull the list of accepted candidates from the list of all candidates.

 

[DrMidlife]

Here are a couple of other AAMC sources to add some context to the "33 median" discussion. Fair warning, this means you'll have to hold multiple competing stories in your head at once, so you may want a helmet.

The 2013 MCAT total histogram: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/361080/data/combined13.pdf.pdf

• This shows that fewer than 10k people broke 33 in 2013. If you look at the prior years, it's also less than 10k per year. But there are more than 25k new US MD students per year.
• Point being, regardless of the shape of the MCAT score curve for matriculants, and regardless of how you choose to interpret median vs. mean, at least 60% of the US MD Class of 2017 did not break 33.

MCAT trends vary greatly by state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/2012factstable21.pdf

• New England has a bunch of states with matriculant composite MCAT averages over 33.
• Lots of states have matriculant composite MCAT averages below 30.

As a previous poster said, the highest MCAT score you can get is what you should aim for.

Best of luck to you.

 

[milski]

Here are a couple of other AAMC sources to add some context to the "33 median" discussion. Fair warning, this means you'll have to hold multiple competing stories in your head at once, so you may want a helmet.

The 2013 MCAT total histogram: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/361080/data/combined13.pdf.pdf

• This shows that fewer than 10k people broke 33 in 2013. If you look at the prior years, it's also less than 10k per year. But there are more than 25k new US MD students per year.
• Point being, regardless of the shape of the MCAT score curve for matriculants, and regardless of how you choose to interpret median vs. mean, at least 60% of the US MD Class of 2017 did not break 33.

MCAT trends vary greatly by state: https://www.aamc.org/download/321502/data/2012factstable21.pdf

• New England has a bunch of states with matriculant composite MCAT averages over 33.
• Lots of states have matriculant composite MCAT averages below 30.

As a previous poster said, the highest MCAT score you can get is what you should aim for.

Best of luck to you.

None of these changes the fact that half of all the people who were offered acceptances by MD schools this year had an MCAT of 33 or more.

How many broke 33 in 2013 is irrelevant, since it does not account for applicants from previous years. We are not discussing what scores people got during administrations this year, we are discussing the scores of the people accepted this year.

Interpretation of median vs. mean is not a matter of choice, both are very well defined terms.

There is nothing in the data that you have posted which can support the claim of "at least 605 of the US MD Class of 2017 did not break 33."

 

[QofQuimica]

Yep.

And there is some debate in that thread whether or not the people with 40 MCATs who have 10+ acceptances are being counted 10 times.

They are multiply counted for *acceptances,* but not for *matriculations,* because each person with multiple acceptances can obviously only attend one school.

 

[milski]

They are multiply counted for acceptances, but not for matriculations, because each person with multiple acceptances can obviously only attend one school.

According to AAMC, they are counted only once.

 

[QofQuimica]

According to AAMC, they are counted only once.

We are talking about two different things. I'd argue that the aamc number is irrelevant. If I'm an applicant to x, y, and z schools, what do I care what the national average is? I care about the averages at the schools where I'm applying, which is what you see on each individual school entry in the msar. As someone already pointed out, the msar shows averages for accepted students, not matriculated students. Each school averages all students it accepts, meaning people with multiple acceptances get counted in the averages of multiple schools.

 

[milski]

We are talking about two different things. I'd argue that the aamc number is irrelevant. If I'm an applicant to x, y, and z schools, what do I care what the national average is? I care about the averages at the schools where I'm applying, which is what you see on each individual school entry in the msar. As someone already pointed out, the msar shows averages for accepted students, not matriculated students. Each school averages all students it accepts, meaning people with multiple acceptances get counted in the averages of multiple schools.

Yes, we must be, since I agree with everything you wrote here. The argument about double counting was about how the national average was calculated and I did misread your post.

 

[petyr_baelish]

So to sum it up:

If we look at a school's median or average MCAT for accepted students, it's inflated.

If we look at the national median or average MCAT for accepted students, it's accurate because AAMC does not double count.


?

 

[milski]

So to sum it up:

If we look at a school's median or average MCAT for accepted students, it's inflated.

If we look at the national median or average MCAT for accepted students, it's accurate because AAMC does not double count.


?

Sort of... The school MCAT statistics should be still more useful, since they could give you a fairly good idea if you are competitive for that school or not. The nationwide data can tell you that things have become more competitive in general but you have to be a real outlier for the nationwide statistics to be meaningful for your application. (See the post of QoQ above).

 

[mspeedwagon]

100% of the people I know in the last several year that wanted to go to medical school have gotten in somewhere and gone on to become physicians (or are still med students/residents). Most went to MD programs, several went DO schools, a few went to the Caribbean, and a number went to Australia, Israel and Poland (you get the picture).

I don't believe it's impossible to go to med school, especially if you are willing to make some sacrifices along the way (living apart from a significant other, moving to a new region, etc.). Now, getting into a top tier school, that's a whole different story (I remember when I was an undergrad people's list of med schools read Harvard, UPenn, Hopkins, Yale, Cornell, Brown and they were then SHOCKED that they didn't get in anywhere). Can't even begin to tell you how many people were forced to re-apply because of this.

 

[68PGunner]

If 60% of the applicants didnt break 33, the median can't simply be 33. That's the bottom line.

 

[milski]

If 60% of the applicants didnt break 33, the median can't simply be 33. That's the bottom line.

Not everyone taking the test is applying. Not everyone applying has taken the test that year.
Alternatively, you can assume that AAMC does not know how to calculate the media or has wrong data.

 

[68PGunner]

Honestly, I think the main reason that MCAT scores have gone up in recent years has been the willingness of applicants to shell out $$$ for those MCAT preparation courses along with better resources available online. If you look at the average for top tiers MDs, the median has been hovering around 36 for the past couple of years.

For the middle tier MDs, the average MCAT score is about 30-33 depending on locations, with the average being closer to 33 when the school is close to a major metropolitan area.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Not everyone taking the test is applying. Not everyone applying has taken the test that year.
Alternatively, you can assume that AAMC does not know how to calculate the media or has wrong data.

There are 2 different things being discussed here.

1)The national averages in the MSAR
2)The information that the AAMC provides for matriculated students

Is it possible that when you contacted them you asked them(or they assumed you were asking about) number 2? Because in that case you would both be right.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Honestly, I think the main reason that MCAT scores have gone up in recent years has been the willingness of applicants to shell out $$$ for those MCAT preparation courses along with better resources available online. If you look at the average for top tiers MDs, the median has been hovering around 36 for the past couple of years.

For the middle tier MDs, the average MCAT score is about 30-33 depending on locations, with the average being closer to 33 when the school is close to a major metropolitan area.

But shouldnt there be the same percentage of people(or very close?) with each possible MCAT each year? I think there is simply more people taking the test because the economy is still pretty brutal for young people.

 

[EngtoMedHopeful]

Not that I'm representative of most young people or even any young people since I am 25, but there's no way in hell I could afford to shell out tons of cash for MCAT preparation. I do worry that this will disadvantage me greatly. Maybe my financial situation will have improved once I get closer to taking the MCAT, but right now, I wouldn't even be able to afford applying to med schools if I were to start doing so today.