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Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by coprolalia, 02.09.08.
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You guys do know who Sheridan is, right? Hello? McFly?
I'm guessing the AMC that accounts for around 25% of the ads on gaswork?
Some people would call them Satan, others may call them mentors.
A pimp by any other name still wears a big felt hat with a feather and smells like brut.
A testament to how bad Sheridan is the large number of places they have been kicked out or tried to take over and failed.
JPS Fort Worth, TX,
And dozens more.
I made the mistake of going to an interview with the Sheridan Scum, I never made the mistake of signing up but they were the among most dishonest and deceitful characters, I have had ever encountered.
I would only rank Anesthetix Management (AKA. Anthem Associates) or AmSol as more malignant AMC companies.
They're still at JPS.
And the nidus of their internet activity seems to be gaswork.
Unfortunately, Anesthetix has placed an ad for a position in my hometown area. I guess that means they've taken over the whole deal there, as my hometown is only 6,000 people with a 60 bed hospital and single OP surg center.
They place the ad as if it is an ad for a small (4 person) group in town that you're joining. Lying by omission? I should've guessed by how relatively low the pay scale is, especially for someone with a pain fellowship. http://www.gaswork.com/post/74895
I guess you really can never go home.
I'm just trying to imagine who would actually go work for them (Sheridan). They are indeed all over Gaswork (and other anesthesia job sites, like MDJobExchange) advertising for position.
Just for sh*ts and giggles, I went to their website and looked at their employment application. It reminded me of a standard job application that you'd fill out to work at WalMart. Very cold. Very impersonal.
So, in imaging who'd work for them, I can only come up with those who either 1) are desperate for a job or 2) haven't done any homework. I'd love for someone who works for Sheridan to come on here and try to defend them. I just can't imagine the caliber of the "employee" working for them being a colleague in the truest sense who would get my back and/or help me out of a crisis, if I needed help. Just smacks of "big evil corporation" type of practice who tries to squeeze as much work out of you as possible with little real incentive to "do good" by its employees.
On the other hand...
If you were a newbie gasser and just wanted to get a couple of years experience under your belt, would subsequent employers frown upon your working for them. Likewise, if you took a locums arrangement to work for them and actually didn't become officially "employed" by them, would you be able to get a better deal (not that they'd offer that).
This is a post of curiousity, not future intent to seek employment through them.
Now this is interesting.
Everyone says how evil these AMC's are....and I don't disagree, because they are very expensive due to their inherent inefficiencies of the corporature structure, etc.
Yet, in the same breath, the same folks who despise these AMC's will go and work Locums....which the AMC's use extensively....Another layer of management which cause undue expense.
You are absolutely right, Mil.
But everyone these days wants to be treated like a partner on day one. This is just another sad turn that the field is has taken.
there is a reason there are many locums... If there was not a reason then they wouldnt exist. Locums is expensive. I knew a guy who worked locums for sheridan in florida. THe dude was making like 10 large a week.. thats pretty good money amc or not.
another point to ponder.
what is the difference between working for sheridan healtcare and getting a salary and bonus.. and working for a mom and pop group and getting screwed by them.. You are getting screwed either way. at least you are not seeing the people screwing you daily when you work for sheridan. I am not endorsing sheridan just so you know. I hate all that nonsense.
Im not advocating partnership on day one. I am advocating getting paid equally for equal work.. period. why should a new anesthesiologist get paid any less for an epidural he or she placed vs a partner. its stil a billable service
so why should a CRNA get paid less than you for placing that same epidural? and the list goes on..
Treated like a partner from day one? I don't know if that's the expectation. The expectation is to get treated fairly and have a future no matter where you go. Is that unreasonable? I don't know. But, doesn't seem so to me.
Here's a deal a guy who's finishing this year got (for a general-type, mixed-bag practice he's going to). They have an "open book" policy, in that any member of the group can look at the accounts anytime they want. It's a pooled-type practice where all the accounts go into a big pot, and then it's divvied-up at the end of a billing cycle. Everyone gets an equal share of pay, no matter what grade you are within the group. You get paid a fraction based on the amount you work. They look at billed time, not billed cases, and your percentage is based on how much you're actually there providing care. There's no special treatment if you are doing complex ASA 4 cases where you're sweating the whole time, or you're pushing propofol in the endo suite.
The upside to this is that everyone is treated fairly and like an equal from day one. The downside is that it's feast or famine. You have a good quarter and work hard, you make a lot of money. If you don't work, you don't get paid. If there aren't enough cases or cash coming in, everyone suffers. At least they're equitable.
To me (at least on the face of it), that seems like the fairest type of system. He actually told me to come interview with them in the fall, but I don't know if the geography suits me. Still, we'll see. By then, he'll have had a few months working with them and will know whether or not that's the type of practice he wants to be in.
So, partner from day one? I dunno. But, he's being treated fairly up front and that's a pretty cool, equitable way to run things if you ask me. I believe MilMD runs his practice this way, and to that I say: .
Slight variation, but yes...
THE group in Tucson (60+ partners) does the same thing...except non-partners are at the percentage of what partners make.......The only had 1 person not make partner in a LONG time.
That's one type and a very good one at that.
You need to decide as you interview what it is you want. Your first statement "treated fairly" is up to you. You can negotiate your deal in order to feel that you are getting a fair shake. But to expect everything that partners get right out of residency is arrogant. Pay is one thing, a spot on the board with full voting privileges and all other perks of partnership is a totally different beast. Its your choice, take the job or leave it. There are many of you out there. Trust me, we interviewed people for 3 years till we got this group where we wanted it. I even interviewed someone from this site and b/c of his posts here I had a very good idea whether we were going to offer him anything. He was bright and well trained. We did not make an offer.
Does Mil give his newly hired folks all the privileges of the people that have been there from day one? I doubt it. There is a trial period, I'm sure. They may be paid the same but if pay is the only thing you are considering then you are missing the boat.
Thanks for your valid input.
Anytime. Thanks for listening.
I would delete this if i were you. I am not certain that is legal. What, you didnt like his political views. You should hire someone based on if you feel he can do the job. if he was bright and well trained.. hire the guy. Not because he argued with militarymd.
Who's he talking about? You seem to know. I have no idea.
I never said he argued with anyone here in particular. I also didn't say anything in particular about him that I didn't like.
I did have a good idea of who he was and knew exactly what questions to ask the candidate based on the comments made here, possibly. This was a good guy and a good candidate but he just was not the candidate for our position. It was nothing person and he probably got a job better suited for him.
Be very careful what you say here. We are anonymous, mostly. Don't be afraid to speak your mind and express your beliefs but don't be upset when intelligent people figure things out either.
Not me. I'm ready for a good old fashioned beaten.'
I just want to end up at a place where I enjoy my anesthesia colleagues, do a variety of cases, and get to go home and see my wife n' kid at night.
And get to go somewhere warm n' fun for vacation.
Man, with this attitude you will be happy at least initially, but things might change if you find yourself in a situation where people are trying to take advantage of you and if you discover that the equality they promissed is nothing but an illusion.
Hope it doesn't happen to you.
Its hard to put a price on an enjoyable work atmosphere. That enjoyment is relative indeed. However, showing up to my job knowing the day is gonna suck, yet again, isn't something I wish to endure. No matter how much I get paid.
Working long hours is one thing. Learning the "group's way" of doing things is one thing. "Paying my dues," is one thing (well, I guess thats the third thing in this ramble). However, working with people I hate/have little respect for is something which I just can't stand. By people, I mean my fellow anesthesia staff. I have to start there at the very least during the job hunt.
I do realize that the only person looking out for me is me. Maybe my mom as well.
There is always academics where I can take it out on the residents and be as lazy/fastidious as I want.
One of the problems with money for most people is that even if you have enough, you still want more. Just ask Warren Buffett or Bill Gates.
I'm considering working for Sheridan because I'm geographically limited to an area where they are the only decent looking group. Any specific things to watch out for?
Do your self and your career a favor and find another job.
If you insist on making this big mistake, you should first talk to some former victims of Sheridan.
so is sheridan a large anesthesia group that tries to get contracts in many hospitals across the US?
Just curious....never heard of them.
Sheridan is not an Anesthesia group it is a private corporation, or an AMC (anesthesia management company) owned by Mitchell Eisenberg, MD. They claim to provides anesthesia services at more than 50 hospitals and ambulatory surgery centers in 13 states. Unlike a real anesthesia group should you decide to work for Sheridan you will never become a partner but always be a poorly paid employee of Mitchell Eisenberg, MD, working for far less than you would earn if you worked for a real Anesthesia group.
Sheridan also goes by the name of Tiva HealthCare.
Some of Sheridan's locations Currently recruiting.
Ormond Beach, FL
Fort Worth, TX
El Dorado, AR
North Miami Beach, FL
Fort Pierce, FL
West Palm Beach, FL
Lee's Summit, MO
Palm Coast, FL
Fort Lauderdale, FL
The problem is that you will NEVER have control over your practice.....sort of like being in the military....you're just a cog in the machine.
A cog that is expected to make money for the owners of the corporation.
If you are a poor performer, then it will probably be a good deal because you will probably get paid more than you are worth.
If you are a stellar performer, then you will likely get screwed because you can probably bill for and collect a lot more than you are worth.
The same situation as in the military.
It's not really getting screwed....it's just that you will never control your business.
Read my other thread about my experience when I started at my current gig.....I got the royal screwing, but because it is a TRUE mom and pop PP job, I was able to turn the table......never gonna happen with an AMC.....UNLESS the AMC looses its contract, and you're one of the stars at the hospital and the hospital is willing to give you the contract.....
but then you have to have the business sense to take the contract and negotiate terms that are fair for all.....otherwise, the hospital will screw you.
In light of this thread...
I still havent heard any specifics. If somebody got screwed by sheridan, I'd like to know what happened so I can lookout for it. I'm almost sure i'll be working for them atleast in the short term.
MMD, I know that I'll never be a shareholder and that I'll be making money for someone else. But I'm OK with that for a little while while I get the rest of my life in order.
So to summarize, other than not being partner, what am I getting screwed with? The money is decent and I dont plan on making this a permanent thing. I know about the crappy benefits and I'll deal with it. Why does everybody hate Sheridan other than the fact that they take away contracts from smaller groups.
Same reason everyone hates WalMart.
I interviewed with Sheridan for their job here in Vegas and I thought it was pretty reasonable. I know one of the people who did take the job and they are quite happy. I really don't know any of their anesthesiologists anywhere else. I have met a number of the people in their management team and they were all very nice.
I was in private practice in Reno, NV with an excellent group for two years after finishing residency and left prior to becoming a partner because my wife and I were having a hard time with the long distance relationship. If I had become a partner, the only thing it would have given me was job security. Partnership in medical practices can mean many different things. Does the practice own the building? Does it own an office for the pain clinic? Does partnership merely give you the right to collect your billing after expenses (eat what you kill.) I have found that partnership in anesthesia usually does not mean that much from a financial perspective. I am sure there are exceptions to the rule. It does give you administrative control over the group. which can mean quite a bit to your quality of life.
There are a couple of things that I like about Sheridan. They are self-insured, so if you feel you are getting a raw deal and leave, there is no malpractice tail. The one thing to check is the non-compete clause in their contract. It may limit your ability to work in the same area, despite the lack of a malpractice tail. Keep in mind that non-competes can be negotiated out of a contract if they want you bad enough. They also have part-time and non-call positions available, which is a nice deal for people who have kids or other issues.
The fact that they own TIVA is a good thing in my opinion. If your group loses some people, they can bring in locums to fill the gap until new people are hired.
Why didn't I take the job? I made a mistake a few years ago and went a whole year without taking call when I was doing locums. It is hard to go back to a job with heavy call after that. I have adjusted my lifestyle and accept a lower salary at the VA and only take call once a month. The Sheridan job was every fifth night call, but the money was in the top 10% for the country in anesthesia. So, the call was a problem for me.
The one other thing I didn't like about Sheridan was that they did not have much of an incentive system for taking call. At my old group in Reno, they had an incentive system which kept everybody in the group taking call, even the old guys. That is something they could possibly improve upon.
Otherwise, I did not get the impression they were "Satan." I actually thought they had a pretty reasonable deal. I have heard many more horror stories from people getting screwed by private practices. Admittedly, there are many more private practices than AMC's. As with any job, ask as many questions as you can and be sure to talk to people who have left the group. One other thing to keep in mind, is that you can do locums at the place Sheridan needs somebody through TIVA with one of your vacation weeks. If you like it, take the permanent job, if not, take your $6000 for the week and keep on looking.
Does your desire to promote your physician employment web site influence your ability to give candid answers?
Your response sound like it was delivered by a recruiter. You have nothing negative to say about Sheridan and plenty of positives statements about Sheridan. Like most recruiters if you knew something negative about Sheridan you have nothing to gain by disclosing it and plenty to lose by angering your meal ticket if you tell the truth.
Sheridan has 29 of 50 positions on the first anesthesia page of your website. While it is hard to tell exactly how much Sheridan is paying to advertise on your website 29 postings at $ 75 posting add quoted rate on your site is $2175 per month. That is not counting TIVA or Sheridan's ER management wing or their Neonatology wing. Thus you are getting a big payday from Sheridan every month.
Sheridan being an AMC which seeks the cheapest employees possible to maximize profits by its very nature will have a constant need for fresh new employees to replace the ones who are constantly leaving for better jobs.
Thus Sheridan will continue to be one of your better customers. So you have little objectivity on this issue since you are on Sheridan's payroll.
What Sheridan has paid me is far less than your calculations.
I did mention a couple things that I thought Sheridan could improve upon. I don't like egalitarian arrangements where everybody gets paid the same. I much prefer a base salary of 1/3rd the projected income and an incentive based system to make up the other 2/3rds. It keeps the old guys from screwing the new guys with the call schedule.
I still haven't heard anybody bring up an account of something bad that happened to them with Sheridan.
The purpose of my site is to be objective and give the facts. I have not heard any specific accounts other than generic complaints about low pay. I know for a fact that they are paying top dollar for anesthesiologists here in Las Vegas. I was making $425,000 at my old job in Reno and Sheridan's salary got my attention. There is the distinct possibility that they are paying people less in Miami. I've got a news flash for you.....people get paid less in more popular areas. If they are paying you peanuts, then it is an individual's decision if living in Miami, San Francisco, or Denver is worth the lower pay.
If somebody has something real to contribute, put it out there. Keep in mind that the good old USA has this thing called the First Amendment. You can say what you want so long as it is supported by something remotely resembling a fact. What I have put out are facts. Everything else on this thread is innuendo and whining.
If you want, PM me and I can do an interview with you and put it on my site. I did another interview with a disgruntled anesthesiologist and it is under the "anonymous anesthesiologist" There are many ways to change names and locations to protect identities, but people will still get the message.
The people that I know that work for Sheridan like their jobs. I have found them to be very pleasant people. Their jobs aren't perfect. If anybody has a perfect job in medicine, please call me, I'll take it. Perhaps the only paid mouth is yourself (buckhorn) and you work for a competing AMC and just want to badmouth them?
I supposes this is George Bush's modus operandi.
Some information that I'm sure the anti-Sheridan crowd on this list will attack. Sheridan isn't a partnership model. You don't get the partnership meetings to decide what health insurance you are going to elect or how much Betty Sue in billing is going to make nor do you have the liability as an owner. For Florida, you are employed by a group. You have a standard contract that allows either party to get in and out easily. YOu have no tail insurance cost when you leave. You are promised, and mostly delivered, a job that has a reasonable call schedule that is roughly the same as everyone else in your group. Your compensation is published, and the same as everyone else in your group. You can volunteer for extra shifts at area hospitals for a published rate that is similar to what locums get. You don't have to do extra shifts as they have a big enough group that they can usually find someone interested in picking up that shift.
Sheridan does tend to manage the groups, which usually translates into the lazy or incompetent being asked to leave. A couple of those are on an anti-Sheridan mission, and I suspect perhaps posting on this listserve.
Yes, I am with Sheridan and yes am satisfied. NO, I'm not a recruiter for them. Sheridan isn't perfect, as no group is perfect. I would happy to answer your questions with as much as I know about the group.
Would you rather own your own hardware store or work for Home Depot?
I think that about sums it up. It's all about the hassle:reward ratio.
Each situation has it's positives and negatives.
Owning your own business can be a financial disaster if you don't know how to run a business and in this case you would be better working for the big boys.
Many private practice groups (More than 50 %) are built to serve one purpose: The older guys making money while the younger ones working and any management company is better than these groups.
Well, if they're still at JPS, that makes sense as Dirty Peter Smith has always been considered an inner circle of hell...Man, I miss that place.
i have heard that AMC companies that "own their own maplractice insurance company" often have them overseas, like the caymans (a la NAPA). sometimes this is well hidden
if you aren't happy with them, ie whether or not they choose to defend you/influence your decision to settle/fight a case, you have little to no recourse, as they are barely regulated by the state or federal govt
so their "tail" may or may not be secure
again, this is hearsay, i can't really back this up with specifics
So, let's say you are even remotely considering working for such a company... do you think it would be extra-ballsy to interview, get down to the job offer stage, and then say you want to be paid $425K to start? Would they laugh you out of the office, or do you think this would be the way to say f-you to such companies? What if EVERY qualified anesthesiologist asked them to pay them that much? Maybe we should start a movement right here and right now.
Or, maybe such companies are just relegated to taking the bottom of residency class at low-tier residencies and/or those who have some kind of "geographic hardship" and are willing to take whatever they can get?
Ok ... I was looking into what looked like a great job opportunity on gasworks in which I recognized the name anesthetix. I remember reading that name on SDN and while I was returning a call to the recruiter, I did a quick google search:
Anesthetix court document
Hung up the phone before they could pick up. Can't believe what that poor guy went through. Don't know the details of course, but in addition to trying to rip him off, seems like they really worked hard to tarnish his name when he tried to get them to pay him. I can see why alot of folks just walk away quietly in these situations.
SDN may have potentially saved me from a nightmare situation.
I have lots of doubts about the fact that your contract is disclosed to everyone else (within your working group). I would like to see proof of that. I know that they have one year contracts that have automatic renewals, unless the employee decides on giving his/her ninety days notice. But having your salary disclosed to everyone you work with? I call that factual BS.
Did you read the whole docket? It was a pretty fascinating read.
Anesthetix tried the "smear campaign" tactic on this dude. They tried to impugn his character, made allegations that he was an incompetent practitioner, and tried to even question his hygiene. Pretty pathetic.
He tried to sue under Title VII, in part, alleging that there was discrimination based on the fact that he is a U.S. citizen (that they only hire J-1 and H-1B visa docs), but that was summarily dismissed by the court. That would've been a federal lawsuit.
What was (or will be) litigated was the possibility that Anesthetix misrepresented the contract to him, and that they didn't pay him.
Interesting read, full of caselaw, for anyone willing to take the time. Thanks for posting!
post the document please
Kinda hard to post a 30pg PDF file.
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