Is St. James a legit med school?

[Law2Doc]

i know it's late but i'm also to applying to this school. Med school in itself is difficult but it can be done. in reality it should matter what school you get your degree from; what matters is that your interested in medical school and that's a good thing. alot of doctoors have there 4 year degree in something like english and math or something that's not related to the medical field, but they did what they had to do in order to acheive their goals. no one on this forum has said anything positive in your direction. you can go to yale and be the worst doctor in your community, but you can go to a regular medical school like brown or st. james and be a wonderful doctor. my point is your decussion is, it entirely on you. Whatever school it is you just have to make the best of it. and st james is listed in the WHO listing so that great thing.

First, St James is not in the same category as Brown. Second, every US grad is going to have an easier time landing a residency than any Caribbean grad. It's not about being the worst doctor or wonderful doctor. It's about having open doors and or choices in life. As a result, a place like St James should only be considered if every other possibility is a brick wall because odds of success are poor.

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[La Presse]

You put St. James as a regular medical school in the same sentence as Brown?

I giggled. Ridiculous, isn't it?


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.

 

[Ismet]

you can go to yale and be the worst doctor in your community, but you can go to a regular medical school like brown or st. james and be a wonderful doctor.

what.

 

[NeuroLAX]

what.

One of my all-time favorite SDN gifs!

 

[487806]

i know it's late but i'm also to applying to this school. Med school in itself is difficult but it can be done. in reality it should matter what school you get your degree from; what matters is that your interested in medical school and that's a good thing. alot of doctoors have there 4 year degree in something like english and math or something that's not related to the medical field, but they did what they had to do in order to acheive their goals. no one on this forum has said anything positive in your direction. you can go to yale and be the worst doctor in your community, but you can go to a regular medical school like brown or st. james and be a wonderful doctor. my point is your decussion is, it entirely on you. Whatever school it is you just have to make the best of it. and st james is listed in the WHO listing so that great thing.

Sweet bump man! And you also created a thread just like this! Nice!

Brown = St. James? See below

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

alot of doctoors have there 4 year degree...

Just the kind of future doctoor St. James is looking for.

 

[music2doc]

I wanted to know if anyone has heard anything good or bad about St. James School of Medicine? I am considering applying, but I am unsure. I live in New Jersey, but I know that they don't have full accredation as of yet. Should I risk it and just apply? I did really bad on my MCAT and my gpa is a 3.0, so I don't know what school would accept me. Seems like this one might, but before I apply, I wanted to know anyone's opinion.

Thank You,

Do you want to practice in the U.S.? Then no.

Do [just] you want the initials "M.D." after your name? Then sure.

 

[music2doc]

Agreed. Its not really politically correct to talk about, but having many FMG's actually turns off a lot of US MD students for some reason. This causes a downward spiral toward more and more FMG's. Therefore many programs will take make US MD's over FMG's regardless of scores/grades.

Hmm... what could that reason be I wonder...

 

[king kong bundy]

First, St James is not in the same category as Brown. Second, every US grad is going to have an easier time landing a residency than any Caribbean grad. It's not about being the worst doctor or wonderful doctor. It's about having open doors and or choices in life. As a result, a place like St James should only be considered if every other possibility is a brick wall because odds of success are poor.

okay the carribean is your last resort. but check this out, your in a operating room and you another doctor is performing your duties. after you guys were finished, you were graded on your performance. on a scale of 1-10 you were given a 7 but the other doctor was given 8.5. the other doctor went to Howard University school of Medicine and you went to johns Hopkins University. the reason for this because his reasoning skills in solving problems is better than yours. you both know what your doing. you score even higher than him in all your exams. the point is it should not matter(to you it does) were you get your medical degree, what matter is that were ever you go; you should make the best of it.

 

[911 Turbo]

okay the carribean is your last resort. but check this out, your in a operating room and you another doctor is performing your duties. after you guys were finished, you were graded on your performance. on a scale of 1-10 you were given a 7 but the other doctor was given 8.5. the other doctor went to Howard University school of Medicine and you went to johns Hopkins University. the reason for this because his reasoning skills in solving problems is better than yours. you both know what your doing. you score even higher than him in all your exams. the point is it should not matter(to you it does) were you get your medical degree, what matter is that were ever you go; you should make the best of it.

lol did you even read the comment you quoted?

 

[KnuxNole]

okay the carribean is your last resort. but check this out, your in a operating room and you another doctor is performing your duties. after you guys were finished, you were graded on your performance. on a scale of 1-10 you were given a 7 but the other doctor was given 8.5. the other doctor went to Howard University school of Medicine and you went to johns Hopkins University. the reason for this because his reasoning skills in solving problems is better than yours. you both know what your doing. you score even higher than him in all your exams. the point is it should not matter(to you it does) were you get your medical degree, what matter is that were ever you go; you should make the best of it.

What does that have ANYTHING to do with the caribbean? Howard and John Hopkins are US medical schools. St. James is like gas station hamburger meat compared to steak at a fancy restaurant. It's not even close to the same league as SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba...and if these students are feeling the squeeze in coming years, imagine how big of a squeeze the bottom feeder schools are feeling

Your point about making the best of the situation given is correct. That is why the people who succeed in Caribbean schools are well respected, and the ones who are hard working that go to foreign schools are respected as well. However, even they are able to realize the education/support system is VASTLY different between a LCME school, and a foreign school. Mainly in the 3rd/4th year.

 

[music2doc]

What does that have ANYTHING to do with the caribbean? Howard and John Hopkins are US medical schools. St. James is like gas station hamburger meat compared to steak at a fancy restaurant. It's not even close to the same league as SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba...and if these students are feeling the squeeze in coming years, imagine how big of a squeeze the bottom feeder schools are feeling

Your point about making the best of the situation given is correct. That is why the people who succeed in Caribbean schools are well respected, and the ones who are hard working that go to foreign schools are respected as well. However, even they are able to realize the education/support system is VASTLY different between a LCME school, and a foreign school. Mainly in the 3rd/4th year.

I wouldn't go that far. At least in the community of physicians I have worked with, there is a subtle -- but definitely present -- distrust of FMGs/IMGs. Sure, it might not be enough that they won't be hired on, but they definitely get more closely scrutinized when considering making an offer.

Regardless, the rest of your post I strongly agree with. OP, I would honestly advise you to go into another career field of a US MD or DO program is not going to work out for you. Even the "Big 4" will soon be a completely untenable choice. It's just not a wise place to train if you hope to be an American physician.

 

[Law2Doc]

okay the carribean is your last resort. but check this out, your in a operating room and you another doctor is performing your duties. after you guys were finished, you were graded on your performance. on a scale of 1-10 you were given a 7 but the other doctor was given 8.5. the other doctor went to Howard University school of Medicine and you went to johns Hopkins University. the reason for this because his reasoning skills in solving problems is better than yours. you both know what your doing. you score even higher than him in all your exams. the point is it should not matter(to you it does) were you get your medical degree, what matter is that were ever you go; you should make the best of it.

After residency it wouldn't matter. But if you never get to the OR to be evaluated because your offshore med school didn't open any doors to a US surgery residency then yeah, it matters a great deal. You have to realize that US med schools are in one group, and offshore schools are in another. All if the first group (whether we are talking Hopkins, Yale, Brown or Howard) end up with residencies. About 40% (and dropping) of the second group end up with residencies,(most going to the big 4), and with fewer choices of specialty.

Can you, a guy afraid to take the MCAT, tell us you are going to be in the top 40% of your offshore class and in the top percentile of Step 1, so that you get a shot at a small community IM program in a geographical undesirable region? Quite a plan.

 

[king kong bundy]

After residency it wouldn't matter. But if you never get to the OR to be evaluated because your offshore med school didn't open any doors to a US surgery residency then yeah, it matters a great deal. You have to realize that US med schools are in one group, and offshore schools are in another. All if the first group (whether we are talking Hopkins, Yale, Brown or Howard) end up with residencies. About 40% (and dropping) of the second group end up with residencies,(most going to the big 4), and with fewer choices of specialty.

Can you, a guy afraid to take the MCAT, tell us you are going to be in the top 40% of your offshore class and in the top percentile of Step 1, so that you get a shot at a small community IM program in a geographical undesirable region? Quite a plan.

not afraid the mcat, but just a little shaken up. but your right, but you cant tell someone what to do. besides it's not easy in any medical school

 

[ModernAlchemist]

not afraid the mcat, but just a little shaken up. but your right, but you cant tell someone what to do. besides it's not easy in any medical school

Not to be rude, but I take issue with the bolded statement. You keep making statements like these. While true, this statement gives no validity to your claims about a foreign medical graduate's chances at a US residency. It's like saying "Getting a job that pays half a million dollars a year is difficult for someone who didn't graduate high school, but it's difficult for everyone".

 

[Doctor Strange]

 

[Ismet]

 

[KnuxNole]

not afraid the mcat, but just a little shaken up. but your right, but you cant tell someone what to do. besides it's not easy in any medical school

then why ask if your mind is made up from the getgo?

 

[911 Turbo]

then why ask if your mind is made up from the getgo?

because he's a troll and you're falling for it

 

[king kong bundy]

then why ask if your mind is made up from the getgo?

my mind is not made up for it...

 

[king kong bundy]

because he's a troll and you're falling for it

just stop

 

[sliceofbread136]

just stop

.

 

[medlover14]

I am a current student at SJSM and yes, it is legit!
That being said, taking the Caribbean route is definitely not easy and there are a lot of hoops to jump through. I know plenty of people from my school who are now in residency spots - both in Canada and the USA. The percentage of students who make it is not crazy high, but with hard work and determination it can be done. Caribbean schools are a feasible option for people who can not get into medical school for whatever reason - and there are plenty! Everyone has their own reasons for even looking into Caribbean schools.
I have been keeping a blog of my journey so far, anyone who is considering St. James or any other Caribbean medical school is more than welcome to check it out.
www.drnicolefox44.blogspot.com

I am always happy to answer any questions people have about the process!

 

[Lawpy]

I am a current student at SJSM and yes, it is legit!
That being said, taking the Caribbean route is definitely not easy and there are a lot of hoops to jump through. I know plenty of people from my school who are now in residency spots - both in Canada and the USA. The percentage of students who make it is not crazy high, but with hard work and determination it can be done. Caribbean schools are a feasible option for people who can not get into medical school for whatever reason - and there are plenty! Everyone has their own reasons for even looking into Caribbean schools.
I have been keeping a blog of my journey so far, anyone who is considering St. James or any other Caribbean medical school is more than welcome to check it out.
www.drnicolefox44.blogspot.com

I am always happy to answer any questions people have about the process!

No need, since the Caribbean forums is the place for you to be at. And thanks for the 3 year necrobump.

For anyone interested, I leave the following.

If you are breathing and can write a tuition check, then that's all the grade replacement you'll need.

I take it that you're comfortable with the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt?

A little reading assingment for you:
https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/it-doesnt-get-better/

 

[gyngyn]

I am always happy to answer any questions people have about the process!

How many of the students who started with you are still in your class?

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

They make doctors as much as Dr. Pepper and Dr. Dre are doctors.

 

[NurWollen]

They make doctors as much as Dr. Pepper and Dr. Dre are doctors.

http://familycareatbardmoor.com/physicians/profile/Dr-Robert-Pepper-DO

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

http://familycareatbardmoor.com/physicians/profile/Dr-Robert-Pepper-DO

AND people seem to love his 23 delicious flavors... well, damn. I stand corrected.

 

[medlover14]

How many of the students who started with you are still in your class?

We started with 130 and finished the first half of the program with 60.

 

[md-2020]

We started with 130 and finished the first half of the program with 60.

....

That's a number you should probably keep secret going forward.

 

[Planes2Doc]

My friend went there after getting sick of his post-bacc program at Nova Southeastern. He was excited about the fact that he didn't need to finish it, nor take the MCAT for admission.

He started there, then eventually left because he was concerned about their loss of accreditation (with the Dutch government?). Not sure if he failed out or quit for other reasons. He never told me. He wanted to continue the post-bacc and apply DO assuming St. James would not show up on Student Clearing House records. Anyhow, he is doing real estate now. So I guess medicine didn't work out, and from what I've heard, St. James didn't sound all too promising.

 

[Goro]

As we have mentioned previously, any American medical school with numbers like these would be shut down by COCA or LCME. Educational malpractice.

We started with 130 and finished the first half of the program with 60.

 

[StudyLater]

The fact that it is:

1) In the Caribbean (do not let the Chicago headquarters fool you)
2) Not considered accredited in a few states

... is worrisome. I would advise against it.

But....the ad said I could be a doc in the US.

 

[StudyLater]

That is a 34% acceptance to residency match rate.

I'm not so interested in that ratio. Quite a few things can happen between acceptance and match. This doesn't take into account clinical grades, board scores, and the number of dropouts. It could be that US med students are just more capable overall and therefore receive better grades/boards and have a higher graduation rate, thereby making the ratio of acceptance to residency matches greater for them.

Even considering all these things, however, I'd assume the numbers are still not too good.

Better than 0% for that person with a 2.9/21, though.

 

[Goro]

But anyone even remotely considering a Carib diploma mill should be. Whatever those "things" are that prevent matching, they sure happen at an alarmingly higher rate for Carib students.

I'm not so interested in that ratio. Quite a few things can happen between acceptance and match. This doesn't take into account clinical grades, board scores, and the number of dropouts. It could be that US med students are just more capable overall and therefore receive better grades/boards and have a higher graduation rate, thereby making the ratio of acceptance to residency matches greater for them.

Even considering all these things, however, I'd assume the numbers are still not too good.

Better than 0% for that person with a 2.9/21, though.

 

[StudyLater]

But anyone even remotely considering a Carib diploma mill should be. Whatever those "things" are that prevent matching, they sure happen at an alarmingly higher rate for Carib students.

I don't think it's a totally useless number. Just might not give the full picture.

And who knows! I mean you are accepting students operating at a completely different academic level from those accepted in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if their academic practices throughout their education resulted in completely different results on those "things" that determine whether or not they'll match.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm not so interested in that ratio. Quite a few things can happen between acceptance and match. This doesn't take into account clinical grades, board scores, and the number of dropouts. It could be that US med students are just more capable overall and therefore receive better grades/boards and have a higher graduation rate, thereby making the ratio of acceptance to residency matches greater for them.

Even considering all these things, however, I'd assume the numbers are still not too good.

Better than 0% for that person with a 2.9/21, though.

There are a lot of factors that play into that ratio, from stigma to poor preparation to lackluster rotations and letters. Never bank on being the exception. Everyone goes into medical school believing they're special, and the majority come out average or worse. Planning to be in the top third of your class going in is a foolish idea, as most of your classmates carry the same drive, and the majority will fall to reach that level of achievement. Playing a game with the odds stacked two to one against you from the start with 200k and four years of your life on the line is a bad move. You'd be better off taking that money to Vegas.

As to the original question of whether St. James is legit- legit schools usually don't have that question asked in the first place.

 

[StudyLater]

There are a lot of factors that play into that ratio, from stigma to poor preparation to lackluster rotations and letters. Never bank on being the exception.

Right but that was my point.

Everyone goes into medical school believing they're special, and the majority come out average or worse. Planning to be in the top third of your class going in is a foolish idea, as most of your classmates carry the same drive, and the majority will fall to reach that level of achievement. Playing a game with the odds stacked two to one against you from the start with 200k and four years of your life on the line is a bad move. You'd be better off taking that money to Vegas.

Yeah but isn't this kind of a different thing? It's a Carribean school. Totally agreed for an average matriculant to US schools.

Unless you're talking about someone with really poor stats going to a Carribean. Then I could see your point that the person shouldn't count on being in that top 34% (if those people even were in the top of the class, which I don't know).

As to the original question of whether St. James is legit- legit schools usually don't have that question asked in the first place.

Don't ask, don't tell.

 

[Mad Jack]

Right but that was my point.



Yeah but isn't this kind of a different thing? It's a Carribean school. Totally agreed for an average matriculant to US schools.

Unless you're talking about someone with really poor stats going to a Carribean. Then I could see your point that the person shouldn't count on being in that top 34% (if those people even were in the top of the class, which I don't know).



Don't ask, don't tell.

Everyone who is at a Carib school is there for a reason. They have some failing that led them down to the islands, else they wouldn't be there in the first place. When you're comparing one flawed applicant against another, it becomes more difficult to determine which will succeed, not less, because their flaws are varied and hard to directly compare. Behavioral issues might be more or less obstructive than a low GPA, for instance, depending on the reason for and degree of past issues and the reason for said GPA. Few people (if any) go to a school like St. James with solid stats and no red flags, so no one is on stable enough ground to believe themselves to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[StudyLater]

At what cost? What do you do with significant loans and significantly reduced chance in getting a residency slot and no job?

And what does that say about a medical school that has every motivation to increase profits by taking almost any student who has the most important admissions factor, which is the ability to pay?

That is one damn economically viable educational institution.

What does it say that the chairman on the board of trustees is known for high growth business model consulting business model and nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with education, medicine, or anything else other than making money?

Awesome choice of executive officers.

And what do you call someone who, despite their desire to be a doctor, is shown these facts?

Oh we're talking about education and actually learning how to practice medicine. Yeah no I mean there's probably no way I'd go there unless I were desperate.

My acceptance to residency slot takes in all those factors, hence why I use it.

Still confused on this point, since the factors you mentioned didn't seem to have much to do with the student at all. I mean, student performance is the main factor in determining the match. That's why I'd rather take into account those things that actually determine who matches.

On a side note, it's not like it's totally unheard of for US MD and DO students to feel under-prepared to take on the PGY1 learning curve, despite doing well on shelfs/boards.

For a US MD school, 97% of students who start medical school earn their degree using 8 year time span (accounts for those doing dual degrees), showing very few fail out. The match rate for those who graduate in any given year is about 95% (placement rate is over 99%). So that is at least 92%-93% who start medical school, will get a residency slot

Compare that SJSM. Of 130 students who start, 60 earn a degree (as reported in this thread). The school reports 45 residency matches. More than half the class doesnt finish? About a third who start get a residency slot, thus can actually practice medicine.

Oh well then there we go! The data was in fact skewed by not considering who actually graduates. This is again not to mention boards/grades, which we have yet to look at here.

I don't even know why this is that surprising, by the way. Again, we're dealing with a totally different tier of student here. Heck, compare it to the UG situation and you get the same deal.

Six-year graduation rates for first-time, full-time students who began seeking a bachelor's degree in fall 2007 varied according to institutions' level of selectivity. In particular, graduation rates were highest at postsecondary degree-granting institutions that were the most selective (i.e., had the lowest admissions acceptance rates), and graduation rates were lowest at institutions that were the least selective (i.e., had open admissions policies). For example, at 4-year institutions with open admissions policies, 34 percent of students completed a bachelor's degree within 6 years. At 4-year institutions where the acceptance rate was less than 25 percent of applicants, the 6-year graduation rate was 89 percent.
ref: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

Do you think I am going on about this because I have some vendetta?

Not really. It's just a discussion, after all. Stats are the most important things, here.

I am likely one of the few people on SDN who has been a fan of some off-shore schools over my long career in both premedical advising and medical admissions. Up until about a decade ago, off shore was a reasonable path. However, the rapid growth in US MD and DO graduates with little growth in residency slots since 2005 has made an ever diminishing opportunity for IMGs.

You would be much better off in spending time, money and effort in MCAT prep classes to improve grades and postbacc, even if informal DIY, to get into a US based school. Really kid, I am trying to give some useful advice. It may be a slap in face and ice water on your dreams but it is accurate

Well I just want the full story, is all. If we're going to look at data, let's analyze it properly so it actually applies to what we're talking about.

 

[StudyLater]

Everyone who is at a Carib school is there for a reason. They have some failing that led them down to the islands, else they wouldn't be there in the first place. When you're comparing one flawed applicant against another, it becomes more difficult to determine which will succeed, not less, because their flaws are varied and hard to directly compare. Behavioral issues might be more or less obstructive than a low GPA, for instance, depending on the reason for and degree of past issues and the reason for said GPA. Few people (if any) go to a school like St. James with solid stats and no red flags, so no one is on stable enough ground to believe themselves to be the exception rather than the rule.

Well I guess that depends: Do past (past being UG) behavioral issues bleed into the match? I don't know, personally.

 

[gyngyn]

Well I guess that depends: Do past (past being UG) behavioral issues bleed into the match? I don't know, personally.

PD's know that behavioral problems are a significant characteristic of the Caribbean pool.

 

[StudyLater]

PD's know that behavioral problems are a significant characteristic of the Caribbean pool.

Weird. I thought they just did bad in UG, mostly. Seems like a weird thing to assume just because a school is easy to get into everyone has six DUIs and abandoned three illegitimate children after having to skip bail on a charge for trafficking in crack cocaine.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well I guess that depends: Do past (past being UG) behavioral issues bleed into the match? I don't know, personally.

They factor heavily into whether one reaches the match, and what their evaluations look like, as such issues do not just magically go away when one enters medical school. Wherever you go, there you are, as the saying goes.

 

[StudyLater]

They factor heavily into whether one reaches the match, and what their evaluations look like, as such issues do not just magically go away when one enters medical school. Wherever you go, there you are, as the saying goes.

Ohhh I see I thought....yeah, I thought you were talking about an individual that "did something" in UG which med schools couldn't forgive, so they go to a Carribean. I was wondering if that sort of thing would bleed into the match.

I wasn't talking about what I now know you're talking about, which is an individual that just has consistent behavioral problems. I thought we were more talking about like a discrete probem that happened in the past e.g. spending 3 weeks in jail for assaulting a bus driver. But then after that you're a model citizen etc.

 

[Mad Jack]

Weird. I thought they just did bad in UG, mostly. Seems like a weird thing to assume just because a school is easy to get into everyone has six DUIs and abandoned three illegitimate children after having to skip bail on a charge for trafficking in crack cocaine.

It's not that extreme. It's just that PDs know they are taking a chance with many Carib grads, particularly those that don't come from the big four. They come with baggage and history that one simply doesn't have to take a chance with in regard to many other candidates.

 

[StudyLater]

It's not that extreme. It's just that PDs know they are taking a chance with many Carib grads, particularly those that don't come from the big four. They come with baggage and history that one simply doesn't have to take a chance with in regard to many other candidates.

Fair enough. But apparently some programs still want them so....they're lucky I guess. Either that or they proved themselves academically like the others that match.

 

[StudyLater]

So your point is the match is solely based on the student's performance and has nothing to do with the quality of the medical school, placement in rotations, or any of the other 20 factors or so that residency directors list for both who they invite for interviews and who they select for programs. And that indirectly assumes that all medical education at all schools is about the same.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Charting-Outcomes-2014-Final.pdf

Not necessarily. I'm just saying we should take it into account, because it is very important in determining who matches. We currently are not taking it into account, at all, which makes the analysis flimsy.

Yeah, and still graduate and pass at rates of 97%

Are you saying graduate med school or graduate residency? If it's the former then....yeah, that's established. Do we have something comparing rate of graduation of carib students to US students in acgme/aoa residencies? I actually don't know.

Perhaps the students dont graduate because they dont get the kind of support, education and other factors outside of the inherent abilities of the individual

I was under the impression we essentially have to put in the time to teach ourselves in med school or fail. Am I wrong in assuming this? I mean, this is just how it works -- UG is the same. Whatever outside support you give me I will certainly fail if I don't put the effort in to do the work, unless the tests are ridiculously easy (not in med school). Therefore outside support is kind of a....negligible factor.

So if want to risk time, money, effort with a gamble take the USMLE and hope you get a spot on the unrealistic expectations that your own reported academics of a 2.9/21 MCAT because you are too self absorbed to at least put in the work to try improving your odds here in the USA , be my guest.

Wait I thought I was giving a hypothetical. Did I write that wrong?

Man if I had a 2.9/21 I'd feel pretty f*cked right about now.

 

[DokterMom]

PD's know that behavioral problems are a significant characteristic of the Caribbean pool.

From which one could reasonably infer that the more successful the Caribbean grad was academically and STEP-wise, the higher the probability of significant behavior issues and/or character flaws.

 

[StudyLater]

From which one could reasonably infer that the more successful the Caribbean grad was academically and STEP-wise, the higher the probability of significant behavior issues and/or character flaws.

My gosh, you guys....

Ok ok fine. Carib kids don't get to be in the club. Whatever. Meeting dismissed.