Is St. James a legit med school?

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StudyLater said:
Not necessarily. I'm just saying we should take it into account, because it is very important in determining who matches. We currently are not taking it into account, at all, which makes the analysis flimsy.



Are you saying graduate med school or graduate residency? If it's the former then....yeah, that's established. Do we have something comparing rate of graduation of carib students to US students in acgme/aoa residencies? I actually don't know.



I was under the impression we essentially have to put in the time to teach ourselves in med school or fail. Am I wrong in assuming this? I mean, this is just how it works -- UG is the same. Whatever outside support you give me I will certainly fail if I don't put the effort in to do the work, unless the tests are ridiculously easy (not in med school). Therefore outside support is kind of a....negligible factor.



Wait I thought I was giving a hypothetical. Did I write that wrong?

Man if I had a 2.9/21 I'd feel pretty f*cked right about now.
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The average US MD school has roughly just under 1% attrition per year, many of which come back in future years to finish a year late.
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StudyLater said:
My gosh, you guys....

Ok ok fine. Carib kids don't get to be in the club. Whatever. Meeting dismissed.
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I don't have it out for Carib grads- plenty of them are fine doctors. I've worked with some great Ross and SGU grads in the past. But there is the added risk that comes with taking them into a residency program. They're wildcards, not first drafts.
 
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Mad Jack said:
The average US MD school has roughly just under 1% attrition per year, many of which come back in future years to finish a year late.
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I don't think that's really a response to what I said. More like a fun fact. Ty for that. But no citation makes me sad. :(
 
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Mad Jack said:
I don't have it out for Carib grads- plenty of them are fine doctors. I've worked with some great Ross and SGU grads in the past. But there is the added risk that comes with taking them into a residency program. They're wildcards, not first drafts.
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Like how wild? And is it a cool wild like House wild or do you mean just f*cking crazy like, "Hmmm I'm tired I think I just won't show up to the 8am case today"
 
StudyLater said:
Like how wild? And is it a cool wild like House wild or do you mean just f*cking crazy like, "Hmmm I'm tired I think I just won't show up to the 8am case today"
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You can figure it out like everyone else.
There are two kinds of Caribbean students. The kind who can't do well on exams and the kind who can. The ones who can't take a test get flunked out before they are allowed to sit for the USMLE.
Why would someone who can get a good score on Step 1 go to the Caribbean?
 
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in regards to "lifestyle" pro's that people list off when discussing the caribbean; i dont think they realize just how big of a dump these islands are. aside from the hot weather, excessive pests in your apartment, and complete lack of air conditioning, all i've heard about is how generally awful of a place these towns are. food is marked up beyond belief, the power constantly goes out, hot running water is a luxury, internet service is no better than dial up... if you want to live near a beach apply to school in california or florida.
 
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Or UT -Galveston!

Or Hofstra, SUNY-SB or NYITCOM...Jones Beach and Montauk are great in the summer!


genericpremedstudent said:
in regards to "lifestyle" pro's that people list off when discussing the caribbean; i dont think they realize just how big of a dump these islands are. aside from the hot weather, excessive pests in your apartment, and complete lack of air conditioning, all i've heard about is how generally awful of a place these towns are. food is marked up beyond belief, the power constantly goes out, hot running water is a luxury, internet service is no better than dial up... if you want to live near a beach apply to school in california or florida.
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Yeah, but the Long Island sound beaches tend to be not as nice as those on the South Shore! But I always liked the beach on Cold Spring Harbor that Huntingon township has. I'd finish work in town and hit the beach for about 30 mins, and then head home.

gonnif said:
Did you know that SUNY SB used to have its own private beach open to Faculty and Grad Students

http://www.stonybrook.edu/commcms/_cse/venues/sunwood/
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I went to a meeting in Honolulu a few years ago and would drive by Burns nearly every day.


And Waikiki!!! *sigh*



gonnif said:
The last big storm on Dominica left most of the island without power for 3 months. If you go pack lots of candles and a mosquito net to sleep under.

Oh, go to the Burns Medical School in Hawaii.
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My face when I see yet another Caribbean thread
Futurama-Fry.jpg
 
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gonnif said:
The last big storm on Dominica left most of the island without power for 3 months. If you go pack lots of candles and a mosquito net to sleep under.

Oh, go to the Burns Medical School in Hawaii.
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Only you knew what I would give to go to that school.

jabsom-campus-pic9.jpg


image.jpg

The pic above is before the cancer center was built (thus the construction in the back)
UH-Cancer-Research-Center-800x597.jpg


The new cancer center. And yes it is located right next to the beach for you mainlanders wondering....
 
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gyngyn said:
You can figure it out like everyone else.
There are two kinds of Caribbean students. The kind who can't do well on exams and the kind who can. The ones who can't take a test get flunked out before they are allowed to sit for the USMLE.
Why would someone who can get a good score on Step 1 go to the Caribbean?
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lack of ec's or the ability to stand out? I know people with good numbers and all the "checkbox" ECs who havent got in. From the pre-med student's pov the process can be kind of a crap shoot.
 
gonnif said:
It can be but then going off shore is even more so.
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Of course I would never do that, Im just saying that you would be surprised by some of the stats some people who go to the Caribbean have. I remember talking to one guy who had a 32 MCAT and around a 3.6 GPA I think, no red flags. He told me he was considering the Caribbean mostly because he didnt want to wait another year to reapply and he didnt want to go DO. It is a stupid decision but not one people necessarily make because they are bad applicants.
 
StudyLater said:
Are you saying graduate med school or graduate residency? If it's the former then....yeah, that's established. Do we have something comparing rate of graduation of carib students to US students in acgme/aoa residencies? I actually don't know.
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If they can't get to residency, they can't graduate residency, so this question probably didn't really matter much, certainly doesn't matter much in deciding to go Caribbean...
 
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Tommy, my gut tells me that this person "says" that they have those numbers, but really don't. People lie all the time.

OR, they aimed for the wrong schools, OR had a red flag that they're either not revealing or don't know about, like a poor LOR, OR have poorly written apps.

Someone saying what's in the bold is already displaying an inability to delay gratification, and/or ignore his tiger parents, who come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ethnicities.

Tommyguns89 said:
Of course I would never do that, Im just saying that you would be surprised by some of the stats some people who go to the Caribbean have. I remember talking to one guy who had a 32 MCAT and around a 3.6 GPA I think, no red flags. He told me he was considering the Caribbean mostly because he didnt want to wait another year to reapply and he didnt want to go DO. It is a stupid decision but not one people necessarily make because they are bad applicants.
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Goro said:
Tommy, my gut tells me that this person "says" that they have those numbers, but really don't. People lie all the time.

OR, they aimed for the wrong schools, OR had a red flag that they're either not revealing or don't know about, like a poor LOR, OR have poorly written apps.

Someone saying what's in the bold is already displaying an inability to delay gratification, and/or ignore his tiger parents, who come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ethnicities.
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Or they have a bigger red flag, like having been on probation for academic dishonesty, or a criminal history, or the like. There are ways to make yourself untouchable to US med schools even when you had good grades.
 
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ThoracicGuy said:
If they can't get to residency, they can't graduate residency, so this question probably didn't really matter much, certainly doesn't matter much in deciding to go Caribbean...
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But a good portion of them do. So I'm wondering if that group that is able to get a residency actually ends up doing any worse. Then I could see some evidence for the point that Carib grads (remember we are talking about grads going into residency here) are inferior.
 
Law2Doc said:
Or they have a bigger red flag, like having been on probation for academic dishonesty, or a criminal history, or the like. There are ways to make yourself untouchable to US med schools even when you had good grades.
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Oh so the caste system migrated over here? Sweet.
 
StudyLater said:
But a good portion of them do. So I'm wondering if that group that is able to get a residency actually ends up doing any worse. Then I could see some evidence for the point that Carib grads (remember we are talking about grads going into residency here) are inferior.
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What's a good portion to you? At some places over half of a freshman class won't graduate due to attrition. And overall fewer than half of offshore graduates will match. So we are talking about a 25% chance of someone starting actually making it. But yes, I agree that some portion of that tiny fraction of offshore applicants that beat the odds likely do fine. It's basically like a casino game -- there will be a handful of winners and that's enough to lure in the next batch of suckers.
 
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Tommyguns89 said:
He told me he was considering the Caribbean mostly because he didnt want to wait another year to reapply and he didnt want to go DO. It is a stupid decision but not one people necessarily make because they are bad applicants.
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Weak judgement and haste are not qualities of good applicants.
 
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Law2Doc said:
Agreed. 99.99% of being a good doctor is making good decisions. telegraphing that you don't make them probably gives some PDs pause.
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To be fair most of the time the bad decision in this case, comes after they have already been rejected. I think some solid applicants fall through the cracks for whatever reason(I mean just look at the re-applicant forum, as a current applicant some of the posts there give me nightmares) and then make the worst decision of their lives in haste/desperation.
 
Tommyguns89 said:
lack of ec's or the ability to stand out? I know people with good numbers and all the "checkbox" ECs who havent got in. From the pre-med student's pov the process can be kind of a crap shoot.
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Law2Doc said:
Agreed. 99.99% of being a good doctor is making good decisions. telegraphing that you don't make them probably gives some PDs pause.
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From a PD's POV, the differential diagnosis for a Carib grad is: hubris (could have gotten into a DO school, but that was 'beneath" him), parental pressure (often related to status), gullibility (believes marketing from these places), behavioral problems (IA's, charges and convictions, poorly controlled medical problems including psych and substance abuse), excessive risk taking, weak investigative skills plus haste...
 
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gyngyn said:
From a PD's POV, the differential diagnosis for a Carib grad is: hubris (could have gotten into a DO school, but that was 'beneath" him), parental pressure (often related to status), gullibility (believes marketing from these places), behavioral problems (IA's, charges and convictions, poorly controlled medical problems including psych and substance abuse), excessive risk taking, weak investigative skills plus haste...
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What about - just not good/smart enough to get in the legit way. Yep, I went there. Some people are not smart enough to be doctors - sad and true fact of life.
 
caffeinemia said:
What about - just not good/smart enough to get in the legit way. Yep, I went there. Some people are not smart enough to be doctors - sad and true fact of life.
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I said grads.
In spite of their other flaws, graduates were able to pass the USMLE, at least. This identifies them as being more likely to possess one of the other problems I cited.
 
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Law2Doc said:
What's a good portion to you? At some places over half of a freshman class won't graduate due to attrition. And overall fewer than half of offshore graduates will match. So we are talking about a 25% chance of someone starting actually making it. But yes, I agree that some portion of that tiny fraction of offshore applicants that beat the odds likely do fine. It's basically like a casino game -- there will be a handful of winners and that's enough to lure in the next batch of suckers.
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A good portion was what was quoted; a little less than half.

Right. It's probably much worse than that at my UG. Attrition rates shouldn't matter unless it's due to something f*cked up about the school. Its not surprising to me people let in with poor academic records are leaving med school at that rate. I don't know if it's something special about the school being a for-profit Carribean. What happens if MD and DO schools in the US let the sort of student in that they let in? I'd bet you they'd see a massive drop-off in grad rates. But yeah they wouldn't do that of course.

As far as the underlined, again I'd love to hear more than just "grads don't match." Something like, "X% of grads with these step scores and these grades don't match" seems like it would say a lot more.

The graduation thing is actually under your control, therefore we remove that from the expected value calculation. So what casino game gives you 50% odds?


Law2Doc said:
Um the word "untouchable" exists in the English language distinct from caste systems...
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Serious resident is serious. :lame:
 
OP consider a special masters program or post-bacc instead. It's a far better investment than going to carib schools.
 
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StudyLater said:
A good portion was what was quoted; a little less than half.

Right. It's probably much worse than that at my UG. Attrition rates shouldn't matter unless it's due to something f*cked up about the school. Its not surprising to me people let in with poor academic records are leaving med school at that rate. I don't know if it's something special about the school being a for-profit Carribean. What happens if MD and DO schools in the US let the sort of student in that they let in? I'd bet you they'd see a massive drop-off in grad rates. But yeah they wouldn't do that of course.

As far as the underlined, again I'd love to hear more than just "grads don't match." Something like, "X% of grads with these step scores and these grades don't match" seems like it would say a lot more.

The graduation thing is actually under your control, therefore we remove that from the expected value calculation. So what casino game gives you 50% odds?

:
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Um, either you aren't getting what's being said here, or you are being intentionally oblivious. An offshore schools whole reason to exist is to make money off people who have no other avenues to a US med school. They maximize profits by accepting hundreds more people than they realistically could accommodate during the clinical years and then just failing out everyone beyond that number. It doesn't really matter how everyone performs, they have to fail out X number or get them stuck on internal hurdles and the like because they simply couldn't accommodate more people if they wanted to. So the difference between the guy who makes the cut and the guy who doesn't are pretty insignificant. So yeah, we are saying that there's something F$&@k3d about these schools. And attrition is huge in the equation because at US allo schools its pretty nominal -- a couple of percent in a really bad year, while at an offshore school it's going to be more than half your study group. And that's after having made a six digit investment toward a useless degree. As US schools have increased their enrollment over the past five years, they have, in fact, been taking more people who in previous years would have taken these other paths. But attrition in the US hasn't increased, because frankly that's not an integral part of the business model here. So no, the "graduation thing isn't under your control", that's bogus. You have a lot of people at offshore schools trying to make the most of their second chances, but the schools already know at the onset that regardless of how all if them perform, even if they are all diamonds in the rough, only so many are getting clinical spots.

Second, you seem focused on statistics you can't get. All you get to know that's verified is what gets published by NRMP/ACGME each year. There is no resource which says X % of people with these grades and these step scores don't match. (FWIW "grades" are an undergrad thing anyhow -- in most cases they won't matter if you passed everything (some med schools are P/F) and most of the weight turns on your evaluations, which are essentially abbreviated LORs). And frankly the bigger problem is that the system is not that binary. When I matched I can guaranty that I was selected over many many many people with better numbers. Numbers mattered insofar as they telegraphed how one might do on inservice tests and boards but have little correlation with how you'll be as a resident. Those from offshore schools with much better numbers were screened out from the onset. A lot of my residency's selection process each year turned on the interview and LORs. More nebulous things like eg "leadership" matter -- a common theme in the post-interview discussions was "could you picture this person as chief resident?", never "but this guy has better Step scores". And so that's why you wont get the statistics you seek, nor are they as useful as you'd think. Lots and lots of offshore people had better numbers then me but most programs saw them as offshore grads first, numbers more like third or fourth. They have to be amazing applicants -- in many ways much better than their US counterparts -- just to get to the bottom of the same pile. And that's the real reason more than 50% of those who survive attrition don't match -- the system is stacked against them, regardless of how they do.

It's VERY MUCH like a casino game --about a quarter of those who play have a chance at winning. Sure some of the first 50% separated from their money were bad players, but that's generally the case in every casino, isn't it?
 
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Law2Doc said:
Um, either you aren't getting what's being said here, or you are being intentionally oblivious. An offshore schools whole reason to exist is to make money off people who have no other avenues to a US med school. They maximize profits by accepting hundreds more people than they realistically could accommodate during the clinical years and then just failing out everyone beyond that number. It doesn't really matter how everyone performs, they have to fail out X number or get them stuck on internal hurdles and the like because they simply couldn't accommodate more people if they wanted to. So the difference between the guy who makes the cut and the guy who doesn't are pretty insignificant. So yeah, we are saying that there's something F$&@k3d about these schools. And attrition is huge in the equation because at US allo schools its pretty nominal -- a couple of percent in a really bad year, while at an offshore school it's going to be more than half your study group. And that's after having made a six digit investment toward a useless degree. As US schools have increased their enrollment over the past five years, they have, in fact, been taking more people who in previous years would have taken these other paths. But attrition in the US hasn't increased, because frankly that's not an integral part of the business model here. So no, the "graduation thing isn't under your control", that's bogus. You have a lot of people at offshore schools trying to make the most of their second chances, but the schools already know at the onset that regardless of how all if them perform, even if they are all diamonds in the rough, only so many are getting clinical spots.

Second, you seem focused on statistics you can't get. All you get to know that's verified is what gets published by NRMP/ACGME each year. There is no resource which says X % of people with these grades and these step scores don't match. (FWIW "grades" are an undergrad thing anyhow -- in most cases they won't matter if you passed everything (some med schools are P/F) and most of the weight turns on your evaluations, which are essentially abbreviated LORs). And frankly the bigger problem is that the system is not that binary. When I matched I can guaranty that I was selected over many many many people with better numbers. Numbers mattered insofar as they telegraphed how one might do on inservice tests and boards but have little correlation with how you'll be as a resident. Those from offshore schools with much better numbers were screened out from the onset. A lot of my residency's selection process each year turned on the interview and LORs. More nebulous things like eg "leadership" matter -- a common theme in the post-interview discussions was "could you picture this person as chief resident?", never "but this guy has better Step scores". And so that's why you wont get the statistics you seek, nor are they as useful as you'd think. Lots and lots of offshore people had better numbers then me but most programs saw them as offshore grads first, numbers more like third or fourth. They have to be amazing applicants -- in many ways much better than their US counterparts -- just to get to the bottom of the same pile. And that's the real reason more than 50% of those who survive attrition don't match -- the system is stacked against them, regardless of how they do.

It's VERY MUCH like a casino game --about a quarter of those who play have a chance at winning. Sure some of the first 50% separated from their money were bad players, but that's generally the case in every casino, isn't it?
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Oh no @Law2Doc you are spot on. I'm totally oblivious when it comes to these schools.

So two main things then:
1. They don't get rotations and therefore de facto fail out? I'm just wondering how this works. Is it just end of second year and they say, "Yeah sorry so we don't have any spots for you, and we can't give you the MD unless you actually do clinical rotations so.....kthxbye." I mean what actually ends up happening to precipitate attrition?
2. Stats may matter less than the....other qualities of a resident. Apparently Carib grads are just denied before they even have a chance to possibly display these qualities to the program? Either that or they just generally don't get nice evaluations and don't have a lot of leadership. Hard to imagine one becoming a real "leader" in anything outside of research as a med student, though. I mean, by the time you actually start understanding the work flow, it's on to the next rotation, no? Maybe you can shed some more light on how one can stand out in the way you describe, clinically.
 
Oh, they may get rotations, the Carib schools have so much cash that they can bribe, er, buy clinical rotation sites.

However, they can't buy residencies. So what my learned colleague is describing is a Carb graduate, holding an MD degree, and being unemployed.

And deep in debt, too.

Cue for Argus to come in sputtering "but, but...NRMP!!"

StudyLater said:
Oh no @Law2Doc you are spot on. I'm totally oblivious when it comes to these schools.

So two main things then:
1. They don't get rotations and therefore de facto fail out? I'm just wondering how this works. Is it just end of second year and they say, "Yeah sorry so we don't have any spots for you, and we can't give you the MD unless you actually do clinical rotations so.....kthxbye." I mean what actually ends up happening to precipitate attrition?
2. Stats may matter less than the....other qualities of a resident. Apparently Carib grads are just denied before they even have a chance to possibly display these qualities to the program? Either that or they just generally don't get nice evaluations and don't have a lot of leadership. Hard to imagine one becoming a real "leader" in anything outside of research as a med student, though. I mean, by the time you actually start understanding the work flow, it's on to the next rotation, no? Maybe you can shed some more light on how one can stand out in the way you describe, clinically.
Click to expand...
 
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StudyLater said:
Apparently Carib grads are just denied before they even have a chance to possibly display these qualities to the program? Either that or they just generally don't get nice evaluations and don't have a lot of leadership. Hard to imagine one becoming a real "leader" in anything outside of research as a med student, though. I mean, by the time you actually start understanding the work flow, it's on to the next rotation, no? Maybe you can shed some more light on how one can stand out in the way you describe, clinically.
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The PD's I know set their screening filter to eliminate Caribbean grads. That way they never see the application.
 
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StudyLater said:
Oh no @Law2Doc you are spot on. I'm totally oblivious when it comes to these schools.

So two main things then:
1. They don't get rotations and therefore de facto fail out? I'm just wondering how this works. Is it just end of second year and they say, "Yeah sorry so we don't have any spots for you, and we can't give you the MD unless you actually do clinical rotations so.....kthxbye." I mean what actually ends up happening to precipitate attrition?
2. Stats may matter less than the....other qualities of a resident. Apparently Carib grads are just denied before they even have a chance to possibly display these qualities to the program? Either that or they just generally don't get nice evaluations and don't have a lot of leadership. Hard to imagine one becoming a real "leader" in anything outside of research as a med student, though. I mean, by the time you actually start understanding the work flow, it's on to the next rotation, no? Maybe you can shed some more light on how one can stand out in the way you describe, clinically.
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1. Basically yes. Some places let people get hung up on internal hurdles, mostly so the offshore schools can bleed an extra year of income out of them and let them try to make the cut in a subsequent year. But yeah, they'll just make heavy handed cuts because, as mentioned, they have to. Unlike US schools they don't look at you as an investment so much as as a mark.

2. Yes, I'm saying offshore grads are already at a bad starting place before they even get to the application process. That should have been obvious from all of the above posts. The best offshore grad is going to be lucky to compete with some of the weaker US grads for spots -- life isnt fair, and where you went to med school matters more than how you did there. As for leadership, you won't necessarily show that from your rotations. You'll show it in your personality in interviews, your experiences (not necessarily in school), your LORs. I've written on various posts on SDN about the "wow" factors and "hooks" some US allo applicants need to have to avoid med school waitlists, and I think the analysis carries to residency applications as well. You need to be more than numbers.
 
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caffeinemia said:
What about - just not good/smart enough to get in the legit way. Yep, I went there. Some people are not smart enough to be doctors - sad and true fact of life.
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What about the doctors who got in years ago who wouldnt be able to get in today(I have shadowed doctors who have admitted this to me)? Are they not smart enough to be doctors? I believe the studies indicate that it is only once you get to below around a 26 on the MCAT is when you have problems making it through. There are plenty of people that get higher than that and cant make it into MD/DO for whatever reason. Just saying, that I think smart enough to be a good doctor(if hypothetically given the chance) and smart enough to get into an American med school today are two different things.

Even big 4 Caribbean used to be a viable option back in the day. I think the problem is less about the applicants and more about the various external pressures making every stage of the process more competitive each year.
 
What about them? That was then and this is now. And nowadays, people are more willing to put in the extra effect to either repair their app by doing a post-bac/SMP and/or retake the MCAT and try again at MD schools, or simply go to DO schools.

It has nothing to do with being smart...it has everything to do with being wise, and having a good work ethic.

Tommyguns89 said:
What about the doctors who got in years ago who wouldnt be able to get in today(I have shadowed doctors who have admitted this to me)? Are they not smart enough to be doctors? I believe the studies indicate that it is only once you get to below around a 26 on the MCAT is when you have problems making it through. There are plenty of people that get higher than that and cant make it into MD/DO for whatever reason. Just saying, that I think smart enough to be a good doctor(if hypothetically given the chance) and smart enough to get into an American med school today are two different things.

Even big 4 Caribbean used to be a viable option back in the day. I think the problem is less about the applicants and more about the various external pressures making every stage of the process more competitive each year.
Click to expand...
 
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Goro said:
What about them? That was then and this is now. And nowadays, people are more willing to put in the extra effect to either repair their app by doing a post-bac/SMP and/or retake the MCAT and try again at MD schools, or simply go to DO schools.

It has nothing to do with being smart...it has everything to do with being wise, and having a good work ethic.
Click to expand...

The poster that I quoted was implying(well more outright stating) anyone who cant get into a US med school today isnt smart enough to be a doctor. I was merely disagreeing with him. Of course it is a different environment today, and that was my point really.
 
Goro said:
Oh, they may get rotations, the Carib schools have so much cash that they can bribe, er, buy clinical rotation sites...]"
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Sort of. They use $ to line up as many "rotation" spots at community hospitals as they can. Frequently very "lite" versions of what youd see at US allo schools, and generally pretty cushy because they want positive reviews from students to keep the gravy train going. But there's only so many of these community hospitals that want to play host to offshore grads, and all the offshore schools are trying to get these spots, so you see people having a tough time finding certain specialty rotations when they need them. And the more clinical spots they have, the more matriculants they'll take (because rotations cost $) so there's always about a 50% shortfall.
 
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Oh, and then there's the whole loan situation- for many Carib schools, you need private loans, which require you to start repaying from day 1, have absurd interest rates, and still can't be forgiven.
 
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Guys, can't we just agree that there are many career options that are better than going to the Caribbean for medical school?

$300,000 debt + match rates in the 60's% (at best) = not a good risk:reward ratio
 
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