Is St. James a legit med school?

[Ad2b]

4 stats - I know all of these people first hand, off the forums, in RL.

AUC matriculant - 2015; 21 MCAT first time, 23 2nd time, 24 3rd time, sGPA 3.2 -
AUC grad, Rhode Island for residency (last year of it); physician father paid ALL of it (2012 graduate)
AUG grad, Rhode Island for residency (last year of it, married to the individual above); not sure how he paid for it (2012 graduate)
AUC grad, CA plastic surgical residency in NY, 12 years in practice (I think) (2003 graduate)

Are the Caribs doable? Sure. How difficult was it to get funds to attend? Difficult. How difficult was it for those folks to get residency? Very.

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[Goro]

Also throw into the mix that many of the residencies landed by Carib grads are preliminary, not categorical and are are in the least desirable specialties and geographic locations.

I always clarify this as match rates are used as a misleading sales pitch by the schools; it says nothing about attrition, which has as much to do with a school's support structure and motivation to help you as it does with a student's abilities.

In a US MD or DO school, 94% students earn a degree in 5 years (97% in 8 years with dual degrees). Match rates are 95% (placement rates are over 99% for US -MD seniors). So, at minimum, if you start a US based school, you have a 92%-93% chance of getting a residency slot

In a "better" off shore school such as Ross (as noted below and is not contradicted by Devry either on press release or in HHS meetings)
A total of 20% to 27% students drop out in their first two years. Of those that remain, 52% do not earn a degree. Lets assume another 10%-15% graduate with an additional years (12%-14% of US students have that 5th year most notably for additional research to make themselves more competitive for the match). So lets say 65% of the remaining graduate. Ross matches 80%-85% of those who graduate (that may included placement of post-match).

So of 100 students who start, about 75 make it thru the first two years. Of that group, 65% or 49 actually earn a degree. Of that group 85% or 42 get a residency slot.
So if you start Ross University Medical School, one of the "Big 3", you have a 42% chance of getting a slot.

And no matter how motivated you are, how good you do, how hard your work, your USMLE score, your connections you make on clinical rotations in the US, the number of residency slots is almost static while the numbers of US MD/DO graduates is growing. Simply by available slots ratio being reduced, your chances will continue to diminish.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt
Many DeVry students quit, particularly in the first two semesters, taking their debt with them. While the average attrition rate at U.S. med schools was 3 percent for the class that began in the fall of 2008, according to the AAMC, DeVry says its rate ranges from 20 to 27 percent.


Of those who remained, 66 percent of AUC students and 52 percent of students at DeVry’s other Caribbean medical school, Ross University School of Medicine, finished their program -- typically two years of sciences followed by two years of clinical rotations -- on time in the academic year ended on June 30, 2012.

 

[DokterMom]

@StudyLater -- Why does a wannabe physician with strong academic aptitude go to a Caribbean medical school? Let me count the reasons...

1. They didn't know it was a bad decision
2. They wanted a school with great weather and scenery
3. That's where their SO got in
4. Wanted to get in this year versus doing the academic remediation needed to demonstrate academic credibility to US med schools
5. Wanted MD degree rather than DO
   
6. IAs or criminal records kept them out of US schools
7. Personality problems (zero affect, off-putting, arrogant, creepy vibe) kept them out of US schools
8. Poison LOR

So how would a residency selection committee likely evaluate these applicants? Let me count the ways...

1. Didn't they do any research? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
2. THIS is what they consider important? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
3. This is what they consider important? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
4. Inability to defer gratification. Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
5. Didn't they do any research? This is what they consider important? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
6. Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making - at best. High-risk applicant
   
7. Personality problems unlikely to have been cured. We probably don't want him/her either. High-risk applicant.
8. If LOR-writer didn't like him/her, we probably don't want him/her either. High-risk applicant.

Notice any patterns?

 

[Ad2b]

1. Wanted to get in this year versus doing the academic remediation needed to demonstrate academic credibility to US med schools

So how would a residency selection committee likely evaluate these applicants? Let me count the ways...

1. Inability to defer gratification. Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making

Sigh @DokterMom - whether you knew it or not, you're answering MY questions (not related to Carib) ... thank you

 

[gyngyn]

@StudyLater -- Why does a wannabe physician with strong academic aptitude go to a Caribbean medical school? Let me count the reasons...

1. They didn't know it was a bad decision
2. They wanted a school with great weather and scenery
3. That's where their SO got in
4. Wanted to get in this year versus doing the academic remediation needed to demonstrate academic credibility to US med schools
5. Wanted MD degree rather than DO
   
6. IAs or criminal records kept them out of US schools
7. Personality problems (zero affect, off-putting, arrogant, creepy vibe) kept them out of US schools
8. Poison LOR

So how would a residency selection committee likely evaluate these applicants? Let me count the ways...

1. Didn't they do any research? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
2. THIS is what they consider important? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
3. This is what they consider important? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
4. Inability to defer gratification. Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
5. Didn't they do any research? This is what they consider important? Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making
6. Yikes! Evidence of poor decision-making - at best. High-risk applicant
   
7. Personality problems unlikely to have been cured. We probably don't want him/her either. High-risk applicant.
8. If LOR-writer didn't like him/her, we probably don't want him/her either. High-risk applicant.

Notice any patterns?

Don't forget inability to stand up to parental pressure!

 

[NeuResurgens]

I always clarify this as match rates are used as a misleading sales pitch by the schools; it says nothing about attrition, which has as much to do with a school's support structure and motivation to help you as it does with a student's abilities.

In a US MD or DO school, 94% students earn a degree in 5 years (97% in 8 years with dual degrees). Match rates are 95% (placement rates are over 99% for US -MD seniors). So, at minimum, if you start a US based school, you have a 92%-93% chance of getting a residency slot

In a "better" off shore school such as Ross (as noted below and is not contradicted by Devry either on press release or in HHS meetings)
A total of 20% to 27% students drop out in their first two years. Of those that remain, 52% do not earn a degree. Lets assume another 10%-15% graduate with an additional years (12%-14% of US students have that 5th year most notably for additional research to make themselves more competitive for the match). So lets say 65% of the remaining graduate. Ross matches 80%-85% of those who graduate (that may included placement of post-match).

So of 100 students who start, about 75 make it thru the first two years. Of that group, 65% or 49 actually earn a degree. Of that group 85% or 42 get a residency slot.
So if you start Ross University Medical School, one of the "Big 3", you have a 42% chance of getting a slot.

And no matter how motivated you are, how good you do, how hard your work, your USMLE score, your connections you make on clinical rotations in the US, the number of residency slots is almost static while the numbers of US MD/DO graduates is growing. Simply by available slots ratio being reduced, your chances will continue to diminish.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt
Many DeVry students quit, particularly in the first two semesters, taking their debt with them. While the average attrition rate at U.S. med schools was 3 percent for the class that began in the fall of 2008, according to the AAMC, DeVry says its rate ranges from 20 to 27 percent.


Of those who remained, 66 percent of AUC students and 52 percent of students at DeVry’s other Caribbean medical school, Ross University School of Medicine, finished their program -- typically two years of sciences followed by two years of clinical rotations -- on time in the academic year ended on June 30, 2012.

Wait, DeVry owns some of these Caribbean schools?! Suddenly it makes a bit more sense..

 

[Law2Doc]

I always clarify this as match rates are used as a misleading sales pitch by the schools; it says nothing about attrition, which has as much to do with a school's support structure and motivation to help you as it does with a student's abilities.

In a US MD or DO school, 94% students earn a degree in 5 years (97% in 8 years with dual degrees). Match rates are 95% (placement rates are over 99% for US -MD seniors). So, at minimum, if you start a US based school, you have a 92%-93% chance of getting a residency slot

In a "better" off shore school such as Ross (as noted below and is not contradicted by Devry either on press release or in HHS meetings)
A total of 20% to 27% students drop out in their first two years. Of those that remain, 52% do not earn a degree. Lets assume another 10%-15% graduate with an additional years (12%-14% of US students have that 5th year most notably for additional research to make themselves more competitive for the match). So lets say 65% of the remaining graduate. Ross matches 80%-85% of those who graduate (that may included placement of post-match).

So of 100 students who start, about 75 make it thru the first two years. Of that group, 65% or 49 actually earn a degree. Of that group 85% or 42 get a residency slot.
So if you start Ross University Medical School, one of the "Big 3", you have a 42% chance of getting a slot.

And no matter how motivated you are, how good you do, how hard your work, your USMLE score, your connections you make on clinical rotations in the US, the number of residency slots is almost static while the numbers of US MD/DO graduates is growing. Simply by available slots ratio being reduced, your chances will continue to diminish.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...medical-school-rejects-as-taxpayers-fund-debt
Many DeVry students quit, particularly in the first two semesters, taking their debt with them. While the average attrition rate at U.S. med schools was 3 percent for the class that began in the fall of 2008, according to the AAMC, DeVry says its rate ranges from 20 to 27 percent.


Of those who remained, 66 percent of AUC students and 52 percent of students at DeVry’s other Caribbean medical school, Ross University School of Medicine, finished their program -- typically two years of sciences followed by two years of clinical rotations -- on time in the academic year ended on June 30, 2012.

I would also suggest that any data coming directly from offshore schools themselves cannot always be trusted. As a lawyer I did enough business with companies located on some of these islands to know that many of the consumer protection and truth in advertising rules we take for granted here simply don't exist or aren't enforced on some of these islands. so when they say X % who survive attrition match, odds are good that X is a fuzzy and unreliable number.

 

[getdown]

DeVry owns AUC and Ross
Prairie Capital created a wholly subsidiary called R3 Education after buying Saba, St. Matthew, and MUA
Ownership of many other "lesser" known schools can be traced to small group of investors. Often these investors will be part of the administration or on the board of trustees.

Oh wow, seriously? And these are the same people responsible for the student loan bubble that's been going on right now.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/1374/text

Current bill in the congress that would require off shore schools to schools to have 60% graduation rate and 75% USMLE pass rate in order to be eligible for Federal loans

That still wouldn't fix the SGU/Ross schools out there that have high USMLE pass rates. Without any truth in advertising, I doubt they could get hit with the graduation rate either...

 

[RustBeltOnc]

getting back to the OP: St James is not a legit med school?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

getting back to the OP: St James is not a legit med school?

 

[StudyLater]

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/1374/text

Current bill in the congress that would require off shore schools to schools to have 60% graduation rate and 75% USMLE pass rate in order to be eligible for Federal loans

With the kind of tuition they have? I don't think fed loans are needed.

Is there some kind of recourse for students that can't get the rotations?

Also, is it that bad to have to be in the top third of a Carib school to get those rotations? Seems doable for a decent student.

 

[StudyLater]

getting back to the OP: St James is not a legit med school?

Well....apparently they slaughter more than half the litter. With that said, they do get people into US residencies, so....yeah?

 

[RustBeltOnc]

I think SDN does a great service to promulgate this information.
With that said --- colleges need to improve their advising services.
"Back in my day", I think they were more on the ball about this stuff.

 

[Law2Doc]

With the kind of tuition they have? I don't think fed loans are needed.

Is there some kind of recourse for students that can't get the rotations?

Also, is it that bad to have to be in the top third of a Carib school to get those rotations? Seems doable for a decent student.

1. When it's an exorbitant price, every little bit helps.
2. No recourse, except find another offshore school with lower standards and try to push on from there, maybe.
3. It's not necessarily "doable for a decent student". The schools are set up where even if every person got 100% on every test, and scored very highly on the USMLE, X% have to fail out. more people will make the most of this second chance than are going to succeed.

 

[Goro]

Not all residencies are created equal. Look up the difference between Preliminary and Categorical.

Kudos to my sage colleague L2D for catching my error!!

Well....apparently they slaughter more than half the litter. With that said, they do get people into US residencies, so....yeah?

 

[Law2Doc]

Well....apparently they slaughter more than half the litter. With that said, they do get people into US residencies, so....yeah?

"so aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

 

[Law2Doc]

Not all residencies are created equal. Look up the difference between Primary and Categorical.

Preliminary.

 

[StudyLater]

Not all residencies are created equal. Look up the difference between Preliminary and Categorical.

Yay more rules/distinctions.

 

[StudyLater]

@gonnif Well, 1 year's enough for licensing. VA/UC/rural ER. Who needs all that "training" anyway?

I've already got my mal provider all lined up.

 

[Law2Doc]

@gonnif Well, 1 year's enough for licensing. VA/UC/rural ER. Who needs all that "training" anyway?

I've already got my mal provider all lined up.

Except that in most states foreign trained people need 2-3 years of residency for a license. The one year rule is just for US grads. Google physician licensure by state.

 

[StudyLater]

Except that in most states foreign trained people need 2-3 years of residency for a license. The one year rule is just for US grads. Google physician licensure by state.

(PR, Virgin Islands)

Yeah I'm aware. But do the osteo licenses have this rule? Maybe they go AOA and start practicing bare after a year. Not sure if you can get licensed as an osteo with an MD, though (probably not, damn).

 

[caffeinemia]

These Caribbean threads keep getting more and more ridiculous. Everyone should just let the arguments rest where they lie. Caveat emptor to all and let all put their money where their mouths are if they think that the Caribbeans are a good choice. Experience is likely the greatest teacher.

 

[caffeinemia]

As a potential physician in training, educating patients in what they can do and how they can behave to improve their lives, is a never ending task. It should be applied here as well for those considering medical school and the the long term implications of their actions

Too bad I'm not a pediatrician, I'm a surgeon and unfortunately you can't cut the dumb out of people.

 

[NeuResurgens]

It might not be the best thing to let experience teach people about the dangers of Carib schools since people are literally risking their entire financial livelihood, with outcomes that are sometimes catastrophic and virtually irreversible