Is the anesthesia job market saturated?

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As I mentioned, that wasn't directed at you, it was a warning to current residents who constantly complain and are difficult to work with. Seems like common sense but some people need this reminder.

This is absolutely true btw.
I've seen people's chances at a competitive job evaporate over a 3 minute phone call to the fellowship director or chief while sitting in the anesthesia office.

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Is this a personality contest where the guy with the best personality wins or are we taking care of patients? explain please....

By the way, the answer is probably one of the reasons the specialty is intolerable.. And I happen to be great at acting. They can give me an oscar every day at work.
 
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It is not a personality contest. It is about showing up on or before time, working hard, not cutting corners, being pleasant, not complaining unnecessarily. All of these seem simple concepts, but often are missed by residents without realizing 3-4 years fly by and effects can be much longer lasting.
 
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@criticalelement - frustrating yes. One of my partners is a great guy... Kinda guy you would love to have a beer with... But borderline dangerous and probably just plain not smart enough to be an anesthesiologist. I'm the only one here who has passed my boards the first time. One guy isn't bc/be but is grandfathered in here. I do blocks they can't, do DLTs some of them can't, etc etc.
 
@criticalelement - frustrating yes. One of my partners is a great guy... Kinda guy you would love to have a beer with... But borderline dangerous and probably just plain not smart enough to be an anesthesiologist. I'm the only one here who has passed my boards the first time. One guy isn't bc/be but is grandfathered in here. I do blocks they can't, do DLTs some of them can't, etc etc.
Scary.
Maybe their reputation is bringing you down.
 
lol. i doubt they have a reputation.... I'm in bfe in a fly over state, no one has heard of them i guarantee.
 
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There are plenty of academic faculty that worked hard elsewhere for a while, from 4-20 years, made some loot, killed the loans, front loaded retirement, etc. and then took a nice academic job.
Low 200s isn't a great job, but you get the idea.
@BLADEMDA has mentioned he might end it at an academic program. He might really like working 4 days a week teaching and only covering 2 rooms at a time. I sure do.
A decent job should pay between 3-400, have good benefits, etc. Some will pay even more, but that's usually associated with more hours and less desirable locations.
 
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Is this a personality contest where the guy with the best personality wins or are we taking care of patients? explain please....

By the way, the answer is probably one of the reasons the specialty is intolerable.. And I happen to be great at acting. They can give me an oscar every day at work.

It's both. Nobody wants a talented technical rockstar who feels entitled and has a bad attitude.
 
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Part time jobs, low paying with too many nite calls, taking care of risky patients in small towns and cities across America, you will find a job. The hospitals love to trap anesthesiologists in these dead end jobs by promising everything and not being able to deliver. Once the hospital administration knows that you are a captive audience then the torture begins. I sometimes wonder that hospital administrators take their cues from animal trainers at the zoo.
As an anesthesiologist you have to be 2 steps ahead of the surgeon and 3 steps ahead of the administration and 4 steps ahead of the lawyer.
Learn to say no.
 
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Out almost three years. Been doing everything - Ob, pnb for ortho, vascular, thoracic, peds... Everything but neuro and hearts. Looking at dallas primarily but open to any big city with mostly good weather


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Look outside of Dallas. You will very likely get shafted in Dallas. Look at smaller towns outside big cities. Look at San Antonio and stay away from Houston and Austin as well.
 
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Is the market saturated? No. .
How can you say this so confidently? When was the last time you looked for a job? Try answering an ad for a job. If they answer the phone they will say send me your CV and we will get back to you. Dial tone. NO conversations, No "thanks for calling doctor." Actually, they get right into Are you on drugs? Have you ever been sued? Have you ever been arrested? send me your cv.. (dial tone).

The dialogue i described is such because they know they have a pipline of 1500 anesthesia residents per year looking for jobs. Sure it's not like that perhaps in the middle of nowhere. But who wants to work in the middle of nowhere. People want to work where the action is. Actually, people's wives want you to work where there is action.
 
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I can say that because every year for the last x years that I've been a faculty member, all the residents at the affiliate program and all of our fellows get jobs. So people with zero experience are getting jobs all over the country.
Obviously I hear more from our fellows, but they are successful every year, even the ones that limit themselves to one single desirable market.
I'm not sure I answered many ads for a job offer, maybe that's the problem. Maybe a couple on the pediatric anesthesia society web site.
 
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I can say that because every year for the last x years that I've been a faculty member, all the residents at the affiliate program and all of our fellows get jobs. So people with zero experience are getting jobs all over the country.
Obviously I hear more from our fellows, but they are successful every year, even the ones that limit themselves to one single desirable market.
I'm not sure I answered many ads for a job offer, maybe that's the problem. Maybe a couple on the pediatric anesthesia society web site.

I think the fact that your guys are fellowship-trained from a (presumably) pretty good program skews your perception somewhat.
 
How can you say this so confidently? When was the last time you looked for a job? Try answering an ad for a job. If they answer the phone they will say send me your CV and we will get back to you. Dial tone. NO conversations, No "thanks for calling doctor." Actually, they get right into Are you on drugs? Have you ever been sued? Have you ever been arrested? send me your cv.. (dial tone).

The dialogue i described is such because they know they have a pipline of 1500 anesthesia residents per year looking for jobs. Sure it's not like that perhaps in the middle of nowhere. But who wants to work in the middle of nowhere. People want to work where the action is. Actually, people's wives want you to work where there is action.

:thinking:

Not sure I agree. I've been extremely selective with regards to the groups I have interviewed with in the recent past. Never did I see a job <400K... all in desirable areas.
 
Like I've said before, everyone I know who's going straight into PP landed a great job. We aren't an ivy league program, just a solid mid tier program with a reputation of producing solid, hardworking anesthesiologists. Yeah, the market isn't amazing but there appears to be plently of good jobs at least for now. If I start to see solid candidates settling for crummy 1990's era jobs or being unemployed/underemployed then I'd consider the field saturated.
 
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What states have good job markets? I've heard Wisconsin, but I can't be sure. Texas, Alabama?
 
Texas is a big state with lots of independent job markets. AMCs are taking over most markets though.
 
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The State of Denial has the best job market ever! Just ask any burgeoning anesthesiologist - they're convinced they'll have people lining up BEGGING them to work for them.
 
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For the new grad. Yes. I think it's a tough market for them especially in desirable areas. They may have to take a job that's less idea (lower pay) to be in that area. But don't kill urself taking a job that pays just a little more but involves more hours.

Aka. Take the job making $250-275k in the desirable area as long as the hours are reasonable (aka less than 45-50 hours, and less calls but full time). Build a work history. Your first job won't be your final job.

I wouldn't push for a job that's supposedly paying 400k 1099 no benefits cause it's sounds good but you will be 1:3 or 1:4 call working 60 hours a week. That's assuming you work 52 weeks a year.

One of guys i knew worked for one of those Atlanta groups. He made $400-420k. But it's was brutal for him. He literally had to take 4 weeks off straight when he quit and he did locums for 5 months. But never wanted to work overtime while doing locums. He just wanted to work 8 hours and go home. Cause he burned himself out at that Atlanta job for 3 years.
 
For the new grad. Yes. I think it's a tough market for them especially in desirable areas. They may have to take a job that's less idea (lower pay) to be in that area. But don't kill urself taking a job that pays just a little more but involves more hours.

Aka. Take the job making $250-275k in the desirable area as long as the hours are reasonable (aka less than 45-50 hours, and less calls but full time). Build a work history. Your first job won't be your final job.

I wouldn't push for a job that's supposedly paying 400k 1099 no benefits cause it's sounds good but you will be 1:3 or 1:4 call working 60 hours a week. That's assuming you work 52 weeks a year.

One of guys i knew worked for one of those Atlanta groups. He made $400-420k. But it's was brutal for him. He literally had to take 4 weeks off straight when he quit and he did locums for 5 months. But never wanted to work overtime while doing locums. He just wanted to work 8 hours and go home. Cause he burned himself out at that Atlanta job for 3 years.


I can't help but laugh at your post. I've worked his 'Atlanta Schedule' for more than 2 decades and am still going strong. Of course, my compensation has averaged well above his "420" for those decades but it was worth it. I've got no issues if one decides to go lifestyle vs money but for those that want to make bank I would say go for it.

Again, I fully get the lifestyle argument but when you are young 60 hours per week just isn't that bad as long as you get properly compensated for it. Only you can determine whether the money is worth the extra work.
 
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How soon during fellowships are people looking for a job? How possible is it to finds job prior to starting fellowship towards end of Ca-3 year?
 
Anyone with some insight know how the job market is for new grads in Wisconsin and Illinois? I know they're very different markets, but just curious.
 
I can't help but laugh at your post. I've worked his 'Atlanta Schedule' for more than 2 decades and am still going strong. Of course, my compensation has averaged well above his "420" for those decades but it was worth it. I've got no issues if one decides to go lifestyle vs money but for those that want to make bank I would say go for it.

Again, I fully get the lifestyle argument but when you are young 60 hours per week just isn't that bad as long as you get properly compensated for it. Only you can determine whether the money is worth the extra work.
That's the thing. 400-420k isn't worth
I can't help but laugh at your post. I've worked his 'Atlanta Schedule' for more than 2 decades and am still going strong. Of course, my compensation has averaged well above his "420" for those decades but it was worth it. I've got no issues if one decides to go lifestyle vs money but for those that want to make bank I would say go for it.

Again, I fully get the lifestyle argument but when you are young 60 hours per week just isn't that bad as long as you get properly compensated for it. Only you can determine whether the money is worth the extra work.

Well, it's no laughing matter to young professionals getting out in the workforce.

Morale gets low and lower knowing you are working those hours and not getting compensated for your real work.

We all know if you are working those types of hours you are billing somewhere between 15k-almost 20K units a year. Even with average payer mix, you should be getting 600K-700K plus compensation.

My sister's group in Maryland (all MD). The guy who works the most is getting 700K plus.

It's all psychological knowing how much money people are making off your backs. I don't think you would be going strong after 2 decades with that work schedule and getting underpaid. It gets to you after a while.

That's why they made the movie Office Space. Eventually the workers just say F it.
 
I can't help but laugh at your post. I've worked his 'Atlanta Schedule' for more than 2 decades and am still going strong.

So you take 1:3 call, work 52 weeks per year, work 60 hours per week and have been doing it for 20 years at a busy place?

:hungry::hungover::)
 
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I love how Arch and Blade go at it. Would be funny to see if you all could get along in real life. Maybe Blade is totally different person outside of here. Like this is his alter ego? Maybe?
 
So you take 1:3 call, work 52 weeks per year, work 60 hours per week and have been doing it for 20 years at a busy place?

:hungry::hungover::)


24 hour shifts. These can add up quickly and it isn't that bad to do 3 per week (72 hours).
At some practices Anesthesia (M.D.) is in house and hours at the hospital count even if things are slow that day. Many hospitals are 24/7 institutions.

Again, at some practices the "senior" partners will want to give away their weekend shifts and will compensate the "junior" associate at $120-$150 per hour. A young graduate could make more money by doing 2 extra weekend days per month.
 
24 hour shifts. These can add up quickly and it isn't that bad to do 3 per week (72 hours).
At some practices Anesthesia (M.D.) is in house and hours at the hospital count even if things are slow that day. Many hospitals are 24/7 institutions.

Again, at some practices the "senior" partners will want to give away their weekend shifts and will compensate the "junior" associate at $120-$150 per hour. A young graduate could make more money by doing 2 extra weekend days per month.
It's hard to do 3 24 hour per week shifts long term even if its slow.
longest stretch you can probably do it is 6 months.
I did it for a period of 6 months a few years ago. Grueling. Sleeping at the hospital is not where it's at. I was making PREMIUM dollars so i was willing to tolerate it. But if i was making 50 bucks less i would not have done it.
 
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It's hard to do 3 24 hour per week shifts long term even if its slow.
longest stretch you can probably do it is 6 months.
I did it for a period of 6 months a few years ago. Grueling. Sleeping at the hospital is not where it's at. I was making PREMIUM dollars so i was willing to tolerate it. But if i was making 50 bucks less i would not have done it.


I've worked with CRNAs who have been doing just that for 30 years. I only did it for about 12 years before I cut back to every other week as that was a much easier schedule (48 one week then 72 the next). As of this year I just started reducing that schedule because sleeping in the hospital once you are over 50-55 is much harder than it was at age 40. At age 60 I'll be able to go part time or retire.

I can see from this thread that the younger generation in general won't tolerate that kind of work schedule going forward. Of course, if the compensation isn't there I don't blame them but hard work has been the key to success and in our field that usually means doing the call at night/weekends.
 
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I've worked with CRNAs who have been doing just that for 30 years. I only did it for about 12 years before I cut back to every other week as that was a much easier schedule (48 one week then 72 the next). As of this year I just started reducing that schedule because sleeping in the hospital once you are over 50-55 is much harder than it was at age 40. At age 60 I'll be able to go part time or retire.

I can see from this thread that the younger generation in general won't tolerate that kind of work schedule going forward. Of course, if the compensation isn't there I don't blame them but hard work has been the key to success and in our field that usually means doing the call at night/weekends.

I'm totally willing to put in all the time you ask for if you compensate me properly.
 
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I'm totally willing to put in all the time you ask for if you compensate me properly.
Right on. Blade thinks he is the only one willing to working hard. Nobody is willing to work longer and harder and more importantly take significant additional risk to make someone else richer or make someone elses life easier.. Cmon!!

Just think what cuba gooding jrs character ROD TIDWELL in Jerry Maguire repeated to Jerrry as he turned the music down. "SHOW ME THE MONEY JERRRY" "DOnt show you the money show ME the money "
 
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I'm totally willing to put in all the time you ask for if you compensate me properly.


That's a great attitude. I still believe you can easily earn W-2 $450K+ if you are willing to work hard; but this means more like 2800-3000 hours per year and not the 2000 or so most people prefer to work. The best way to evaluate a job is to look at HOURS WORKED per YEAR. The B.S. about hours per week means little if you work 72 hours one week but get the next week off then rinse and repeat.

I do think there is an attitude on this board that you are OWED something for being an Anesthesiologist. Let's get this straight: You are owed NOTHING. Don't believe the lies and sales pitch that because you are Board Certified in Anesthesiology, Critical Care, etc that this means you will automatically be handed the keys to the kingdom. Instead, you will be handed the mop or broom and told to get to work.

What I'm saying is be prepared to work hard but find the right job opportunity where your hard work will be rewarded with adequate compensation. Please note that I avoid the word "fair" as there is no such thing as "fair" in medicine when it comes to compensation.
 
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Fair would be when senior partners don't screw over the new hires or junior associates. Even in a lousy practice with MD only anesthesia, an average unit value of 25, working 8 hours of elective work a week should bring you close to 300k (50 units a day) and the cases done on night and weekend call should easily cover health and 401k. That is, if someone didn't constantly have their hand in your pocket. First it was senior partners, and now it's Wall Street.
 
Rvu was 45 11 years ago. As of 2010 the rvu slowly came down to 30. In order to make up for the ever decreasing rvu the anesthesia groups are trying not to hire any more. This affects the lifestyle. So all the group members keep working longer hours and taking more calls than residents do. Any one who wants work life balance is called a slacker and a misfit.
So no vacation when u want, no sick leave.
 
Fair would be when senior partners don't screw over the new hires or junior associates. Even in a lousy practice with MD only anesthesia, an average unit value of 25, working 8 hours of elective work a week should bring you close to 300k (50 units a day) and the cases done on night and weekend call should easily cover health and 401k. That is, if someone didn't constantly have their hand in your pocket. First it was senior partners, and now it's Wall Street.

"fair" is what the market place will pay you for your services. Just because you think you deserve more pay doesn't mean you will get it. Thus, if your job or location or lifestyle isn't up to your "fair" standards then pick up and find another one.

I do agree that a certain level of decency should be expected of the senior partners but I wouldn't count on it. If it isn't in your contract then don't Expect it to happen. That's why AMCs do attract new graduates because they screw you up front and without pretense.

These days "get it in writing" is more important than ever before. Of course, the track record of a practice matters in deceding whether to sign up for the 4 year partnership track but so does your contract:

1. Specify salary for 4 years, e.g., 300, 325 350, etc
2. Buyout clause which includes you if the AMC buys the practice
3. Vote by partners on your shareholder/partnership at 24 months (this way you don't invest another 2 years wasting your time in the practice)
4. Vacation and work schedule spelled out (equal distribution of work, call etc)
5. Benefit package clearly elucidated including 401K vesting and CME
 
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Is an average RVU of 25 good or bad Wisco? Asking because your are saying lousy. Lousy as in the RVU pay or lousy as in the practice itself?

Our rvu has been between 45 and 50 for some time now. A pure Medicaid/Medicare practice in Wisconsin would be just under 20. Throw in a few insured patients and it would make for a lousy 25.

In an average practice in a community hospital, working all MD and a not very busy schedule, you would make 40-50 units a day.....250 to 300 a week including the extra units picked up on call. That time however many weeks you work in a year is what you will be bringing in to the practice. How much you get is dependent on how predatory the group is that you are going to be working for. But knowing the average or blended unit is very useful information. If you're bringing in 600 and they are paying you 300k, you will be "buying in" 300k times however many years it is to partnership. In the case of an AMC, there is no partnership, so that's what they will be taking out of your pocket year after year....


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Rvu was 45 11 years ago. As of 2010 the rvu slowly came down to 30. In order to make up for the ever decreasing rvu the anesthesia groups are trying not to hire any more. This affects the lifestyle. So all the group members keep working longer hours and taking more calls than residents do. Any one who wants work life balance is called a slacker and a misfit.
So no vacation when u want, no sick leave.
Our average RVU is still over $50.
 
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Our rvu has been between 45 and 50 for some time now. A pure Medicaid/Medicare practice in Wisconsin would be just under 20. Throw in a few insured patients and it would make for a lousy 25.

In an average practice in a community hospital, working all MD and a not very busy schedule, you would make 40-50 units a day.....250 to 300 a week including the extra units picked up on call. That time however many weeks you work in a year is what you will be bringing in to the practice. How much you get is dependent on how predatory the group is that you are going to be working for. But knowing the average or blended unit is very useful information. If you're bringing in 600 and they are paying you 300k, you will be "buying in" 300k times however many years it is to partnership. In the case of an AMC, there is no partnership, so that's what they will be taking out of your pocket year after year....


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AMCs rarely take over practices with blended units over 40. Those practices don't need a subsidy. The only way an AMC can secure a good practice like yours is if you sell out or you do a lousy job at the hospital.
 
NOT everything.
Just a piece of the overall application.
 
It gets your application noticed. Might get you an interview. But letters and connections are very important.
 
I guess that's what I meant.... Residency is important not only bc of reputation but also the connections you make


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