PhD/PsyD Is the total debt worth it?

[oncounseling]

I'm an older student still paying off debt from undergrad ($40k balance) and am waiting to hear back from Fordham's counseling psychology program. I feel down because I'm about 10 years older than the cohort and this is my only option, other than waiting a year to re-apply.

Unlike many other phd programs, they don't offer full tuition remission or a living stipend. On interview day, students seemed a bit vague / touchy on the subject of finances, though it was eventually made clear that most of them had part-time jobs as babysitters and tutors.

I also found out that accepted students are offered tuition remission for one class per semester for one year only. That means students have to find a way to pay about $28k + living expenses for the first year of grad school. If loans are taken for the entire program, that is about $126k + addition for living expenses.

For grads who have done it, or have seen others go through this, is it worth it? What is "real life" after graduation like, with this kind of debt, as a psychologist?

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[WisNeuro]

You're looking at 200k+ in debt all said and done, conservatively, especially considering a higher cost of living. That is substantial. There are some repayment options, but they are not as automatic as some would have you think, and they depend on a lot of things (public vs. private loans, whether or not you pay taxes on forgiven portion, etc) and some are limited geographically.

I see colleagues with maybe a quarter of that debt having to make some sacrifices and scrimping here and there.

 

[oncounseling]

You're looking at 200k+ in debt all said and done, conservatively, especially considering a higher cost of living. That is substantial. There are some repayment options, but they are not as automatic as some would have you think, and they depend on a lot of things (public vs. private loans, whether or not you pay taxes on forgiven portion, etc) and some are limited geographically.

I see colleagues with maybe a quarter of that debt having to make some sacrifices and scrimping here and there.

Yes, I didn't even include interest on that.

What are some typical sacrifices and scrimping do you hear of?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yes, I didn't even include interest on that.

What are some typical sacrifices and scrimping do you hear of?

Smaller house, not-quite-as-nice car, less discretionary income for things like travel so fewer vacations.

You won't be starving, but even on the income-based repayment plans, with an average psychologist's income, I believe you'll still be paying anywhere from $600-1000/month on loans. Which, for $200k, isn't likely to cover interest, let alone be applied to principle. Thus, you'll be banking on either PSLF after 10 years, or general forgiveness after 25 (I think) years; although with this latter option, as WisNeuro pointed out, the forgiven amount is taxed as income. Or at least that's how it was written a couple years ago.

 

[WisNeuro]

Putting off purchases of bigger item they need, like a car, putting off home buying for several years, reworking timing of having children, etc.

Additionally, I max out my 401k. I have several colleagues who do not because they need the money to pay off loans. that money, and the compounding, can have a huge effect on your retirement savings.

 

[Peacemaker36]

A $200,000 loan at 6.21% interest translates to a $1314.40 monthly payment of post-tax dollars over 25 years.

 

[WisNeuro]

They'll be raising interest rates later this year as well, so I wouldn't count on today's lower rates as a benchmark for the next several years.

 

[bostongal109]

They'll be raising interest rates later this year as well, so I wouldn't count on today's lower rates as a benchmark for the next several years.

When do you think that would happen?

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, depends on a lot of factors, and some loans will be impacted more than others (federal vs private). It was expected that rates would rise in June, but it looks like the Fed may hold off til this fall at this point. Now, it will probably be a slow, gradual rise in rates, but even a small increase can make a big difference when you're looking at a 20 year repayment structure, even more cloudy with deferrals and possibly letting some interest continue to accrue.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Smaller house, not-quite-as-nice car, less discretionary income for things like travel so fewer vacations.

You won't be starving, but even on the income-based repayment plans, with an average psychologist's income, I believe you'll still be paying anywhere from $600-1000/month on loans. Which, for $200k, isn't likely to cover interest, let alone be applied to principle. Thus, you'll be banking on either PSLF after 10 years, or general forgiveness after 25 (I think) years; although with this latter option, as WisNeuro pointed out, the forgiven amount is taxed as income. Or at least that's how it was written a couple years ago.

Exactly this.

I would strongly recommend to keep it at $50k, though obviously less if possible. I didn't include any compounded interest during training or origination fees, which may or may not apply…it depends where you get the loans. Also, private loans will often have different terms, may not allow to extend past 10yr repayment, and/or may have penalties/fees if paid off early or if you try and change the terms to reconsolidate…or they may just not allow it.
------------------------------------------------
Loan: $50,000 ($10,000 loan x 5 yrs)
Loan Rate: 6.8% (current Sallie Mae rate)
Term: 10 Years (standard repayment timeframe)
# of Payments: 120
Monthly Payment: $575.40
Cumulative Payment: $69,048.28
Total Interest Paid: $19,048.28

I fell like ~$600/mon for 10 yrs is doable and not crippling, but it is still a chunk of money.

Here are the numbers with a $200,000 loan and standard 10yr payoff plan. Obviously most people couldn't afford to do it in 10 years, but look at the interest paid over those 10 years….insane.

Loan: $200,000 ($40,000 loan x 5 yrs)
Loan Rate: 6.8% (though private loans may be needed, so this could be higher)
Term: 10 Years (standard repayment timeframe)
# of Payments: 120
Monthly Payment: $2,301.61
Cumulative Payment: $276, 192.62
Total Interest Paid: $76,192.62

The math #'s get even uglier over 30 yrs….

Loan: $200,000 ($40,000 loan x 5 yrs)
Loan Rate: 6.8% (will be higher bc private loans or paid off sooner bc they won't extend to 30yr. Consolidation may be possible, though YMMV)
Term: 30 Years (just in time for retirement!!)
# of Payments: 360
Monthly Payment: $1,303.85
Cumulative Payment: $469.386.44
Total Interest Paid: $269,386.44

So…$1,000 less per month…but you pay for TWENTY more years. You just paid for a house with all of the interest you paid.
------------------------------------------------

 

[WisNeuro]

Do the math folks. I wish personal finance classes were required both in high school and in college.

 

[PsyDr]

You are looking at a median income of around 80k, or 4588/month after taxes in a no state income tax place . If you do not have a house already, then your debt/income ratio would be 50% before getting a mortgage. So no house until after student loans are paid off. Assuming you are 32, then 6 years to graduate= 38, plus one for post doc= 39. Round off for birthdays, and no mortgage until 50? Then planning for retirement. Assuming only 10k of retirement saving by 40, you'd need to save ~20% of your income to make retirement (= 986/month @80K). Never mind the fact that your social security credits average is going to take a huge hit with all the zeros in your income . Then add student loan repayment of $2301. Take home is $1371/month. Less mortgage/rent (~$1000/month, less insurance (150/month), less groceries (200/month),..... You are poor as hell until 50. When you need to start saving for a downpayment on a house. That you have to pay off in 15 years.

 

[oncounseling]

Hi everyone,

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to write out detailed and thoughtful responses. Behind the numbers and cautions, I can tell that you really care about preventing wishful thinking from making someone's life needlessly difficult for a few decades.

There is much to think about - but maybe not so much to think about. Looking at the interest owed is scary.

So now I'm curious: why do so many phd/psy students take on so much debt, knowing this? How do they justify borrowing $100-300k over a lifetime to pay for 5-6 years of training?

 

[WisNeuro]

So now I'm curious: why do so many phd/psy students take on so much debt, knowing this? How do they justify borrowing $100-300k over a lifetime to pay for 5-6 years of training?

Probably a variety of reasons. Many simply do not have a good grasp of the financial aspect and just assume that it will work itself out. They also have these unrealistic ideas of how much money they will make. Also, certain programs and diploma mills do a good job at marketing to people and concealing some of these important things.

Also, according to the last salary and debt survey, a good third of PhD students actually make it through with 0 grad related debt. So, it's pretty common to get through unscathed financially.

 

[Existenz]

Don't forget about public service loan forgiveness and other programs if you're worried about paying off the debt.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hi everyone,

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to write out detailed and thoughtful responses. Behind the numbers and cautions, I can tell that you really care about preventing wishful thinking from making someone's life needlessly difficult for a few decades.

There is much to think about - but maybe not so much to think about. Looking at the interest owed is scary.

So now I'm curious: why do so many phd/psy students take on so much debt, knowing this? How do they justify borrowing $100-300k over a lifetime to pay for 5-6 years of training?

A variety of reasons, I'm sure. Feeling that ultimately, job enjoyment will be worth the price; possibly underestimating the actual loan payments/financial ramifications; planning/hoping for income-based repayment and loan forgiveness after 10 years; feeling that even with the payment, the income would still be acceptable; etc.

With IBR, for example, even with $200k in loans, you're looking at a monthly payment closer to $800-1000/month rather than the $2300 PSYDR mentioned. But even then, that's for 10-25 years. As T4C mentioned, going the 25-year route, that's basically a house. Or a half-dozen rather nice cars.

I attended a funded program and still took out loans, and trust me, there are a hundred other things I could think to spend the repayment money on.

 

[oncounseling]

Probably a variety of reasons. Many simply do not have a good grasp of the financial aspect and just assume that it will work itself out. They also have these unrealistic ideas of how much money they will make. Also, certain programs and diploma mills do a good job at marketing to people and concealing some of these important things.

I have been thinking about the marketing part and felt a bit angry. How can these institutions (and departments) make claims about valuing social justice while perpetuating this kind of financial injustice?

Also, according to the last salary and debt survey, a good third of PhD students actually make it through with 0 grad related debt. So, it's pretty common to get through unscathed financially.

I saw this same report. (And had hoped to get into a fully funded program.)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Everyone believes they are a special snowflake and they will be that 1-5% that crush it. I used to lecture on the Business of Psychology and the vast majority of students had a poor grasp on basic business principles and finance.

Common misperception: "$150 per patient, 5 patients per day, 5 days a week x 52 = $195k!!"

Common reality: Not $150, a % no-show, a % don't pay, overhead is WAY more than ppl estimate, then the taxes….then support staff, marketing, utilities, etc.

Psychologists are generally crappy business people, which is a bad combination when you have 6-figures of debt and declining reimbursement rates.

 

[oncounseling]

Feeling that ultimately, job enjoyment will be worth the price

And then, is the job worth the price...? I'm curious about personal and second-hand experiences

Do those with a large debt experience their work differently than those with average or no debt?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

And then, is the job worth the price...? I'm curious about personal and second-hand experiences

Do those with a large debt experience their work differently than those with average or no debt?

I'd imagine just the idea of having that debt hanging over you could be somewhat stressful, and could also cause folks to jump at a job that they might not otherwise take for fear of ending up unemployed and/or unable to repay the loans.

In my own case, while I wish I'd made it through grad school debt-free, I still very much enjoy what I do. I'd certainly do it all over again, although would've probably chosen to be more frugal while in school.

 

[bcliff]

I wonder what would happen to the field if APA accreditation was contingent on schools being able to offer full funding?

 

[WisNeuro]

And then, is the job worth the price...? I'm curious about personal and second-hand experiences

I'm one of the no debt people. I enjoy my job. I also felt like I had a lot of flexibility. Both in terms of my training, but also that I could hold out if I wanted to wait for a job in a place I wanted to be in. It's also nice to have the idea that if I don't like it, I can easily move, with a month or two time off in the interim. So, long, story short, I feel like I have a lot of career flexibility now. Having my finances in good order definitely helps with that.

 

[John Dory]

i think you all are forgetting a large demographic here -the ones for whom money is not really a concern. i have come across more than a few applicants who plan to attend grad school while supported by parents and/or partners and then have very little need for their future career to bring home the family bacon. even with the whole admissions process favoring the affluent, some will not be able to get into any decent programs despite having had the luxury of taking on unpaid research positions, paying mind blowing amounts of money for master's programs at private universities, gre tutors, etc. for that demographic it makes perfect sense i suppose. sincerely, grumpy fish

 

[oncounseling]

i think you all are forgetting a large demographic here -the ones for whom money is not really a concern. i have come across more than a few applicants who plan to attend grad school while supported by parents and/or partners and then have very little need for their future career to bring home the family bacon. even with the whole admissions process favoring the affluent, some will not be able to get into any decent programs despite having had the luxury of taking on unpaid research positions, paying mind blowing amounts of money for master's programs at private universities, gre tutors, etc. for that demographic it makes perfect sense i suppose. sincerely, grumpy fish

This is a good point. I wonder what the size of the demographic is.

 

[bcliff]

i think you all are forgetting a large demographic here -the ones for whom money is not really a concern. i have come across more than a few applicants who plan to attend grad school while supported by parents and/or partners and then have very little need for their future career to bring home the family bacon. even with the whole admissions process favoring the affluent, some will not be able to get into any decent programs despite having had the luxury of taking on unpaid research positions, paying mind blowing amounts of money for master's programs at private universities, gre tutors, etc. for that demographic it makes perfect sense i suppose. sincerely, grumpy fish

I agree that the impact on low income applicants is problematic, and I think that applying to clinical psych programs can be prohibitively expensive for many prospective students. However, I don't think there is a large cohort of psychology students who have $150,000 in petty cash to pay their tuition and living expenses with, who are also actively pursuing an unfunded education. I think that people with that level of independent wealth would be fiscally savvy enough to avoid that poor of an investment. If anything it's likely poorer applicants who are convinced its a good idea to take out $$$ to pursue an unfunded doctoral degree.

At the end of the day not everyone needs to become a doctor to do what it is that they want to do, and I think that there is a lot of misinformation out there about how the job description of an LCSW or a LMFT compares to the job description of a psychologist - If I didn't have research or academic aspirations, then I definitely would have gotten an MSW and pursued licensure as an LCSW.

The supply/demand ratio for clinical psychologists is flipped right now, and I think that everyone is in agreement that the U.S. is creating more psychologists than there is really a market for, which is why I'm curious what would happen if APA accreditation was contingent on funding.

 

[psych844]

I honestly think it has little to do with people not understanding finances, and a lot to do with people who want to have that "Dr" attached to their name.

 

[John Dory]

i wasn't exactly implying that said applicants had accomplished their economic status by way of their own fiscal savvy. neither was i implying that anyone was actively pursuing unfunded programs for the joy of paying money. i think most applicants would prefer a funded program. it just matters a whole lot less for some. and quite frankly, if you have the money - there are a lot worse places to spend them than on an education that will allow you to do something that you are interested in.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I agree that the impact on low income applicants is problematic, and I think that applying to clinical psych programs can be prohibitively expensive for many prospective students. However, I don't think there is a large cohort of psychology students who have $150,000 in petty cash to pay their tuition and living expenses with, who are also actively pursuing an unfunded education. I think that people with that level of independent wealth would be fiscally savvy enough to avoid that poor of an investment. If anything it's likely poorer applicants who are convinced its a good idea to take out $$$ to pursue an unfunded doctoral degree.

At the end of the day not everyone needs to become a doctor to do what it is that they want to do, and I think that there is a lot of misinformation out there about how the job description of an LCSW or a LMFT compares to the job description of a psychologist - If I didn't have research or academic aspirations, then I definitely would have gotten an MSW and pursued licensure as an LCSW.

The supply/demand ratio for clinical psychologists is flipped right now, and I think that everyone is in agreement that the U.S. is creating more psychologists than there is really a market for, which is why I'm curious what would happen if APA accreditation was contingent on funding.

Match rates. EPPP pass rates and some income data, I believe. Of course, it's confounded by the selection bias of the program so tough to compare quality of training since these are two distinct groups of people.

I must be feeling kind of researchy today.

 

[PsychScience]

And then, is the job worth the price...? I'm curious about personal and second-hand experiences

Do those with a large debt experience their work differently than those with average or no debt?

It's an interesting question. I have a small amount of debt from undergrad (<$40K) and took on no debt for grad school. I would absolutely not be happy if I was in my current job but was carrying 2-3x the debt. There is also the social psychology idea of effort justification that could play a role. Maybe you actually report being more satisfied with your degree if you had to pay more money for it?

There also may be some personality differences at the start., when I applied, I only considered fully (or mostly) funded programs. In other words, I did not start down this path thinking that it was reasonable to take on that kind of massive debt. I guess what I'm saying, is that even if we had the data on the job satisfaction of those with high versus low debt, there are probably some differences between the types of people who would be willing to take on that debt and those who would not.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Debt sucks. I have some from undergrad and grad school. It just hangs there as I chip away at it. Debt can impact buying a home. Debt can limit where you live/work. Debt can impact when to start a family. Too many students brush it off because they want to be a "Dr". It is the next bubble to burst….and it's gonna be UGLY.

 

[oncounseling]

Debt sucks. I have some from undergrad and grad school. It just hangs there as I chip away at it. Debt can impact buying a home. Debt can limit where you live/work. Debt can impact when to start a family. Too many students brush it off because they want to be a "Dr". It is the next bubble to burst….and it's gonna be UGLY.

I wish I won the lottery so that I could take your debt away!

If you could do it over, would you take a different degree, career path, or deferred admission to another year/school?

 

[HungryHippo2]

Exactly this.

I would strongly recommend to keep it at $50k, though obviously less if possible. I didn't include any compounded interest during training or origination fees, which may or may not apply…it depends where you get the loans. Also, private loans will often have different terms, may not allow to extend past 10yr repayment, and/or may have penalties/fees if paid off early or if you try and change the terms to reconsolidate…or they may just not allow it.
------------------------------------------------
Loan: $50,000 ($10,000 loan x 5 yrs)
Loan Rate: 6.8% (current Sallie Mae rate)
Term: 10 Years (standard repayment timeframe)
# of Payments: 120
Monthly Payment: $575.40
Cumulative Payment: $69,048.28
Total Interest Paid: $19,048.28

I fell like ~$600/mon for 10 yrs is doable and not crippling, but it is still a chunk of money.

Here are the numbers with a $200,000 loan and standard 10yr payoff plan. Obviously most people couldn't afford to do it in 10 years, but look at the interest paid over those 10 years….insane.

Loan: $200,000 ($40,000 loan x 5 yrs)
Loan Rate: 6.8% (though private loans may be needed, so this could be higher)
Term: 10 Years (standard repayment timeframe)
# of Payments: 120
Monthly Payment: $2,301.61
Cumulative Payment: $276, 192.62
Total Interest Paid: $76,192.62

The math #'s get even uglier over 30 yrs….

Loan: $200,000 ($40,000 loan x 5 yrs)
Loan Rate: 6.8% (will be higher bc private loans or paid off sooner bc they won't extend to 30yr. Consolidation may be possible, though YMMV)
Term: 30 Years (just in time for retirement!!)
# of Payments: 360
Monthly Payment: $1,303.85
Cumulative Payment: $469.386.44
Total Interest Paid: $269,386.44

So…$1,000 less per month…but you pay for TWENTY more years. You just paid for a house with all of the interest you paid.
------------------------------------------------

alas, can't tell you how many times I have heard "well with IRB and public service loan forgiveness it won't be really but that much a month." I have decided to let them live in their denial.

 

[oncounseling]

alas, can't tell you how many times I have heard "well with IRB and public service loan forgiveness it won't be really but that much a month." I have decided to let them live in their denial.

I hear ya.

 

[PsyDr]

If it's not a financial decision, it's an emotional one. But people call me arrogant for saying this.

 

[cara susanna]

i wasn't exactly implying that said applicants had accomplished their economic status by way of their own fiscal savvy. neither was i implying that anyone was actively pursuing unfunded programs for the joy of paying money. i think most applicants would prefer a funded program. it just matters a whole lot less for some. and quite frankly, if you have the money - there are a lot worse places to spend them than on an education that will allow you to do something that you are interested in.

I would agree with this, but people attending these types of programs impacts the field as a whole.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I wish I won the lottery so that I could take your debt away!

If you could do it over, would you take a different degree, career path, or deferred admission to another year/school?

The sentiment is appreciated, but I can't really complain too much. I make 6-figures as an early career psychologist, work 35-45hr/wk, and I'm well respected by my colleagues. The debt is frustrating insomuch as I should have delayed my doctoral training until I found a program with full funding. I initially considered MD/PhD programs, but I couldn't find a good research match. I was actively encouraged by multiple MD/PhDs to re-consider the path, though in retrospect I probably should have just gutted it out because I'd have a higher floor and higher ceiling. I had good stats, but I didn't cast a wide enough net (and I didn't realize there were many more balanced programs than I found and with better funding). It was pre-SDN for psych, so it was me, a big book of programs (ya know...paperback!) and yahoo.com. My mentors were both old school researchers from U of Minnesota, so their guidance was genuine but limited for what I ultimately needed.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Debt is definitely one factor to consider in making this decision. I took on a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I am still maxing out my 401k. To not do that would be less intelligent than taking out the debt in the first place. Sure it would be nice if I didn't have the debt but I was very aware of what I was doing and had quite a bit more business experience than most psychology students so I just factored it in along with my other investments. I am not in a hurry to pay it all off since the interest for my debt is 2.8 and my investments outpace that. I did pay off 50k this year thanks to nhsc so that was helpful.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The shorter answer for me is that the debt was worth it. I went to a solid program with good match rates and name recognition and my career options have been good. It helps that I like rural areas because it makes me more employable, too. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for everyone or even the field in general to have this dynamic of rising debt and decrease in salaries. I do worry about the market being flooded with less competent psychologists from diploma mills and would strongly suggest to avoid these large cohort/low match programs.

 

[John Dory]

I would agree with this, but people attending these types of programs impacts the field as a whole.

i couldn't agree with you more. i was referring to their personal decisions. as a field i think we have to seriously worry about making ourselves completely irrelevant with a reputation of a profession filled with housewives running hobby private practices. i wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that we have too many psychologists. we do, however, have too many in private practice that doesn't take medicaid for example. we do not have nearly enough psychologist who are advancing the conversation, practice or science around primary prevention or quality interventions for our most high needs populations. in part perhaps because the admissions committees do a pretty bad job at screening people for actual career goals as opposed to rehearsed lies. this grumpy fish will be quiet now and stop offending people

@briarcliff: what if program rating and apa accreditation -not to mention FUNDING relied on students actually making meaningful scientific contributions past graduation? i think there are many ways to slice and dice this one. saying that people who are hindered in their academic pursuit by financial constraints can become social workers might be helpful for an individual looking for a sustainable career path, but it does absolutely nothing to address the lack of diversity in perspective in our field.

 

[futurepsydoc]

To the OP:

I think your concern about debt is well founded. I am glad to see more and more people thinking about this matter, it is too often overlooked. Fordham is a great school, its a shame they do not provide funding. Congrats on getting accepted.

Questions: Do you already live in the NYC area? Is there a decrease in tuition if you are/become an in-state resident? Does tuition decrease in the later years of the program? Perhaps the 4th/5th years are much less expensive. This will impact the total cost of attendance.

Bearing the above questions in mind, I would look at the model course sequence and find out this information. Next, I would create the most accurate estimate of cost for a period of 6 years when taking these factors into account. Moving forward, would encourage you to look very closely into the cost of living in that area and generate more specific figures re: the total cost. If you are not from the NYC area, the cost of living may surprise you. Along these lines, I would take into account the cost of books, commuting expenses, health insurance, rent, food, phone, internet, car insurance (i.e., if applicable) and miscellaneous budgetary items. I would then review the total cost from the perspective that you will have no income at all during 5 of those years. Honestly, you may not work right away or at all, depending a number of factors. From where I stand, the final number should the total loan amount you would need to consider borrowing. I would then add this figure to your current debt, consider possible earnings upon graduation (i.e., internship and post-doc year earnings will be low), estimate what a loan repayment program/schedule would look like, and then consider how this decision may effect other life goals.

Finally, do you only want to be a clinician? If the answer is yes, there are far less expensive ways to make this happen, as others have already have mentioned. If you want to be in academia, however, then a PhD is the only way to go. I would be sure about the career path you want before taking on the debt. If the debt is too much, I would strongly consider reapplying to fully funded programs.

 

[bcliff]

@briarcliff: what if program rating and apa accreditation -not to mention FUNDING relied on students actually making meaningful scientific contributions past graduation? i think there are many ways to slice and dice this one. saying that people who are hindered in their academic pursuit by financial constraints can become social workers might be helpful for an individual looking for a sustainable career path, but it does absolutely nothing to address the lack of diversity in perspective in our field.

I think that there is a lot of diversity in clinical psych - I'd argue that there's more diversity in clinical psych than in most other sciences (strong representation of LGBTQ students, strong representation of women and POC, often an emphasis on research involving minority communities). I think APA accreditation should become more stringent as a whole, and there are a number of ways to go about that, but I'm not exactly sure how feasible or plausible any of them are.

I don't think clinical psych students necessarily need to make major scientific contributions post-grad. I think it's important for clinical psychologists to possess at least a baseline level of skills in statistics, research methods, and clinical work (regardless of whether they're put to use post-grad), so that when the general public encounters a clinical psychologist, they can safely assume that this person at least has a general competency in research, stats, and clinical services - That's my biggest issues with FSPS programs that don't require students to complete a thesis or dissertation and have minimal stats requirements.

Also, I resent that I've pushed myself for years to become a competitive enough applicant to attend a fully funded, clinical psychology PhD program that offers solid research and clinical training, yet when all is said and done I'll have the same title as a graduate from the Forest Institute. I'm not sure if potential clients are discerning enough to recognize and fully appreciate the differences in training.

 

[psych844]

Yeah, you guys just need to learn from us Canadians.

 

[John Dory]

@oncounseling: if you live in nyc now and want to stay, attending a local program will give you a major leg up for internships and work opportunities in the future. it is insanely competitive to find a funded program in nyc, but it is also very hard to come back to the city with a degree from randomplace when there are so many local programs and applicants with connections through externships and internships and what have you. i know a few people who left the city to attend funded programs elsewhere and ended up spending a couple of years trying to find internships (that was before the match though, not sure if that has changed things). just another thing to keep in mind.

 

[mm2009]

Personally, I really can't see or justify how it's worth it. That is a substantial debt, especially considering the possibility of having to stay on an extra year or more (sometimes students don't finish in the anticipated 5 or so years).

Two options:
1. Apply for pre-doctoral funding: I'm not sure what this looks like for Counseling PhDs (do you have any sense?), but this is an option for Clinical. Would cover tuition and related expenses. Difficult to catch, though.
2. Wait a year, re-apply: This is what I would have done, even though I, too, am older. I applied Clinical this year, and actually ended up withdrawing applications after realizing some of them did not guarantee full funding. I have enough other stress in my life to worry about extra financial barriers. What are possible reasons you might not want to do this, oncounseling?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

...it is also very hard to come back to the city with a degree from randomplace when there are so many local programs and applicants with connections through externships and internships and what have you.

Yes and no. Obviously locals have the advantage, though it isn't insurmountable. If you attend a good program, nail down a decent/good APA-acred. internship, and land a competitive fellowship…then you can compete in that market. There may be plenty of people and there are a number of good programs in NYC….but there is *almost always* room for a quality applicant. You can't be middle of the pack and expect to land at a top-notch place in NYC, and that applies to people who attend locally and those applying from outside of the city/state.

 

[futurepsydoc]

I complete agree w/ T4C. Locals anywhere will have the advantage....its not always what you know but who you know Nevertheless, that it is never insurmountable. There are a lot of great programs in NYC: 1) doctoral, 2) internship, and 3) post-doctoral. Honestly, I think your chances on landing an internship or fellowship in NYC will be dependent a number of factors, some of which are impossible to determine 5-6 years out given the state of the internship imbalance and APPIC becoming involved in the post-doc application process (i.e., I am not a fan of this happening).

I too agree that there is "almost always" room for a quality applicant w/ respect to clinical/counseling programs, internship placements, and fellowships. I think you could make it goal to move into the area for internship or after graduation for a fellowship. I will say, however, the level of competition varies completely upon what your end game will be: Academic vs Clinician. If you are looking focus on clinical work, light supervision, and and teaching w/o a career in research, there will plenty of opportunities at hospitals, clinics, and organizations of varying levels of "prestige" so to speak. If, however, your are pursuing an academic career path the opportunities are less plentiful. The best academically oriented internships and fellowships are intensely competitive, as is true for any major metro area on the east coast (i.e., Boston, Philly, Baltimore). The job market for higg-end tenure track positions will be very competitive as well. Again, I really think it is about what your goals are.

 

[Goobernut]

Do the math folks. I wish personal finance classes were required both in high school and in college.

Usually universities require online training for first time borrowers at the institution that include how to estimate your total loan costs and what typical loan payments will be when you graduate -- in relationship to your possible income for your degree. In addition federal law requires that they disclose graduation rates in this education. Sooooooo, borrowers are seeing it, but they aren't understanding it. I've done the education 2x, once for each uni I went to.

 

[WisNeuro]

Might be regional, I never had this offered, and many people I speak to never had any finance classes required by their university. And, I doubt the Argosy's or Alliant's push this sort of thing. Unless there are a ton of people who see a quarter million in loan debt and think that is ok.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If you are looking focus on clinical work, light supervision, and and teaching w/o a career in research, there will plenty of opportunities at hospitals, clinics, and organizations of varying levels of "prestige" so to speak. If, however, your are pursuing an academic career path the opportunities are less plentiful.

This has also been my experience. I was recruited by a couple of NYC programs, and the clinical route was far more attainable (and there were more spots).

 

[futurepsydoc]

As far as the financial counseling goes, I received "exit counseling" which was required before graduating. It was all about loan repayment. It was all online w/ no assistance or guidance - the best educational experience to be sure. In essence, the program was simply a calculator that allowed you to plug in your estimated future salary, attempt to create a budget, and determine how you could pay off the loan over time. I was well aware of all the information being presented, so it was not overly informative for me as an individual. However, as I completed it, the fact that there are thousands of people who are shocked when they encounter something like this for the first time really "HIT HOME." I began to read more about predatory lending, for-profit educational institutions (i.e., vocational, undergraduate, graduate), and the average student loan debt people have these days. Its not that I did not know it existed, I just did realize the scope of the problem. It is really, really, really disturbing.

Honestly, there need be a comprehensive set of laws that require financial counseling at the front-end of borrowing for all students. It should be requirement that must be met before a person granted a student loan. It should not be happening at the back-end. Ideally, the counseling would be provided by financial advisers that are independent from the student loan business itself. From my point of view, this could only occur with legislative support and a form of oversight ensuring a standard of some kind. It is the oversight that I would be most concerned about, for without, legislation and requirements won't be enforced. As we all know, financial regulations are not something we do well over here in the US. I mean, I see it as being akin to the sub-prime mortgage crisis, something which could cripple a generation of people.