Is there any truth to this about the Caribbeans...

[Flintwire]

I haven't been given a source that says most of the spots are preliminary spots.

If I get that, don't worry, I'll be out of your life for good.

You're looking for absolutes. You want to hear something like: "There are absolutely no redeeming factors to the Caribbean medical schools, and if you dare to attend one you are guaranteed to be royally screwed in every way."

Unfortunately, life rarely presents us with absolutes.

Previous posters have shown that there's a high rate of attrition from the Caribbean schools. They've pointed out that even among those students that manage to graduate, the match rate is unacceptably low. Of those few who are lucky enough to actually match, many will end up in dead-end preliminary spots. And we know the situation is only going to get worse for them with the increased numbers of seats in US med schools and other factors. Does all of that mean that NONE of the Caribbean graduates will match? That NONE will match into their first choice, or into a competitive specialty? Of course not.

But the odds are not in their favor.

This is what you need to take away from what's been said here: Going to a Caribbean medical school is a BIG risk and a statistically unsound decision. If you feel comfortable taking that risk ... good luck, we wish you the best. And I mean that. I hope you succeed. Just go in with your eyes open, knowing that the deck is stacked against you, and the odds are high that you aren't going to like the outcome.

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[pageantry]

A lack of critical thinking, desperation and gullibility are phenotypes of people who go to Carib schools. The other differentials aren't pretty, either.

Edited for cattiness. Nm!

 

[Law2Doc]

Where do you teach?

And I'm thinking they're a bunch of liars over at Ross, am I right?

I think you need to realize that US businesses are subject to pretty significant consumer protection laws and can be in significant hot water if they falsely advertise. Entities without substantial assets in the US aren't really as liable, and can get away with more puffery and exaggeration. They play games with statistics. Declare a large percentage of their class internally ineligible, so they can claim a high match rate of the remainder. Or subtly leave off whether a match is prelim or categorical. And so on. Or even outright lie. They aren't checked by anyone -- in some islands the local government is more corrupt than the schools.

If you want to see what match is a prelim vs categorical you'll have to get as much info as you can program by program, person by person, via Google etc. The schools won't tell you. So no there's no published resource we can show you because the organization who would have an interest in keeping track of this, the offshore school, sure isn't going to publish that info. We all know offshore grads in dead end surgical prelims, and they are coming from someplace.

 

[aprimenumber]

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Ross-...ol-of-Medicine-with-over-40-1093042#comment_5
This provides details concerning various legal issues with Ross and DeVry at large, including concerns over misrepresentation of their success.

And here's something from Ross themselves
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/gainful-employment.htm
The fact that their response to the question "What are my chances of getting a job when I graduate?" is "This institution is not currently required to calculate a job placement rate for program completers." kind of says it all for me, and also kind of answers why no one can really give you a firm statistic on what percentage of Ross grads actually match into non-prelim positions.

 

[NYCdude]

There's a guy near where I live who has his own cardiology practice and went to Ross.

I want to know how that's possible. Did he get like 280's on his steps and publish multiple Nature articles or something?

 

[aprimenumber]

There's a guy near where I live who has his own cardiology practice and went to Ross.

I want to know how that's possible. Did he get like 280's on his steps and publish multiple Nature articles or something?

In the past, the Caribbean schools (especially ones like Ross and SGU) were actually pretty good options where the only downsides were the high attrition rate and foreign setting. Since the guy you know has his own cardiology practice, I'm going to assume that he graduated from Ross before 2005. It's mostly now that the students graduating from Ross and other schools are beginning to find it harder and harder to match into residencies, and this trend looks like it will likely continue into the future (aka when current matriculating students graduate) given the expansion of American medical schools.

 

[NYCdude]

In the past, the Caribbean schools (especially ones like Ross and SGU) were actually pretty good options where the only downsides were the high attrition rate and foreign setting. Since the guy you know has his own cardiology practice, I'm going to assume that he graduated from Ross before 2005. It's mostly now that the students graduating from Ross and other schools are beginning to find it harder and harder to match into residencies, and this trend looks like it will likely continue into the future (aka when current matriculating students graduate) given the expansion of American medical schools.

Good point.

I actually know tons of people from my undergrad going to various Caribbean universities. They're also not the smartest students around, no offense to them, so I worry for what problems theymight face.

 

[Mr Doc Turr]

This is data from the 2013 match. It is the most recent data available.

I knew I said I'd be done with this topic, but after doing some more research, I would like to share with everyone some details if they were wondering.

When I looked through SGU's residency appointments on their website, it showed that 843 students matched in 2013 (PGY-1). Out of those 843, 110 were preliminary spots.

It says on their website that ,"On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

That means that something like 250 SGU students got residencies via SOAP (is there any other way NOT through the NRMP? I don't think so.)

Another thing, the same chart shows that schools from Dominica had 532 matched and 438 unmatched. But this could be misleading as there is another school in Dominica other than Ross called All Saints University. Just to make sure this wasn't skewing the data, I contacted this school and they said exactly this: "Be advised that we accept on average 350 students yearly. Couple of them got matched to residency in USA last year."

I guess those "couple" of students weren't messing with the match data too much then.

And for what its worth, I was told by Ross that," the average incoming class is 325-375 students."

Thank you to everyone who pitched in, I'm confident we answered every question possible about the Caribbean for future generations.

 

[hushcom]

I knew I said I'd be done with this topic, but after doing some more research, I would like to share with everyone some details if they were wondering.

When I looked through SGU's residency appointments on their website, it showed that 843 students matched in 2013 (PGY-1). Out of those 843, 110 were preliminary spots.

It says on their website that ,"On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

That means that something like 250 SGU students got residencies via SOAP (is there any other way NOT through the NRMP? I don't think so.)

As I mentioned earlier, obtaining a "residency appointment" is not synonymous with matching. Matching means you go through the NRMP or one of the other matches (e.g. SF, urology). It is possible, however, to get a spot by other means: http://www.nrmp.org/policies/all-in-policy/

 

[Law2Doc]

I knew I said I'd be done with this topic, but after doing some more research, I would like to share with everyone some details if they were wondering.

When I looked through SGU's residency appointments on their website, it showed that 843 students matched in 2013 (PGY-1). Out of those 843, 110 were preliminary spots.

It says on their website that ,"On average, 29% of our graduating classes obtain residencies not through the National Resident Match Program."

That means that something like 250 SGU students got residencies via SOAP (is there any other way NOT through the NRMP? I don't think so.)

Another thing, the same chart shows that schools from Dominica had 532 matched and 438 unmatched. But this could be misleading as there is another school in Dominica other than Ross called All Saints University. Just to make sure this wasn't skewing the data, I contacted this school and they said exactly this: "Be advised that we accept on average 350 students yearly. Couple of them got matched to residency in USA last year."

I guess those "couple" of students weren't messing with the match data too much then.

And for what its worth, I was told by Ross that," the average incoming class is 325-375 students."

Thank you to everyone who pitched in, I'm confident we answered every question possible about the Caribbean for future generations.

First, when they say X number of people got positions outside of the match they probably mean "prematch", which is mostly a thing of the past since the "all in" rule that came into effect. Only a handful of programs out there still offering prematch, for the moment. But in 2013 there may still have been a number.

Second, I'm betting a lot of the people they say "matched" actually did so through SOAP -- these schools consider that a win.

Third, and most importantly, the data posted by these schools websites is not subject to any US consumer protection laws, and enforcement of this kind of stuff by Caribbean countries is nil, so these schools can literally just make up crap in ways a US school can't. The fudge factor and fuzzy math loom large on these. I would consider anything you see on an offshore schools website more puffery than fact -- their goal is to make a buck, not let you know their actual failings, so they paint the picture in their best light if not outright exaggerate or lie. Were there really 843 students who were applying for the match or did the school just consider 843 eligible based on their internal accounting. Were these all from the same year or did 200 finally match the second or third time through? And so on. If the "data" you are getting is coming directly from the offshore schools, don't buy it hook line and sinker. Regard it as the advertisement you might see on a jar of snake oil In 1910 -- it cures everything because it says so and consumer protection laws don't exist yet there. Their goal is to make money and they won't make any money if they paint the not so rosy picture that you probably will not match from there.

Finally, since you are intent to beat this issue beyond the point of common sense, maybe you should just go offshore already. You've heard everyone's arguments for seven pages and still seem intent to let these schools sell you on their "data" so to me it sound like you are someone who may need to learn the hard way. Good luck and safe travels.

 

[moonwake]

Sigh. Why do we have to do this on a weekly basis?

The percentages are readily available from the NRMP.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

*Note that this does not take into account attrition, but only applicants who actually make it to the match stage. These matches also include prelim spots.

Wow... worse than I thought smh....