Is this what dentistry is coming to?

[zammyd]

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[jokersmiles]

sad....

 

[DocVaquero]

Blaming it on Canada.

But really, this does happen. It is partly due to the room for interpretation in treatment plans and partly due to unethical practice. This happens in every field, though.

Just do what's best for the patient when you become a dentist, not what's best for your wallet.

 

[allantois]

With the rising levels of debt, we will see an era of over treatment and lawsuits.

 

[doc toothache]

Looks like our cousins to the north are just as versed in "creative diagnosis and treatment planning".

 

[JLT223]

It's always been this way. Don't be greedy.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

....I kind of want John Lennon's tooth...

 

[BeaverLover]

interesting video

 

[Soleus715]

man... some dentists can be really unethical/greedy..
i always get pissed when patients bring in an extensive treatment plan only to find out that they don't really need much work done.

what gets me more is that there's really not much we can do about it. ethical dentists will be hurt by the decisions of the unethical.
patients will lose money getting 2nd opinions and having a harder time finding a dentist they can trust.

unfortunately, unethical dentist will come out on top.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

man... some dentists can be really unethical/greedy..
i always get pissed when patients bring in an extensive treatment plan only to find out that they don't really need much work done.

what gets me more is that there's really not much we can do about it. ethical dentists will be hurt by the decisions of the unethical.
patients will lose money getting 2nd opinions and having a harder time finding a dentist they can trust.

unfortunately, unethical dentist will come out on top.

True, but I'd like to believe that word of mouth is helpful for this. Building up a reputation as an ethical dentist will help patients and your own business alike. Good guys win (hopefully)

 

[Incis0r]

True, but I'd like to believe that word of mouth is helpful for this. Building up a reputation as an ethical dentist will help patients and your own business alike. Good guys win (hopefully)

You got it- you need to convince your patients that you put their health as #1. Pamper them with so much personal service and attention that they are willing to forego the price-cutting that corporate offers, in order to be seen by someone they trust.

 

[Soleus715]

True, but I'd like to believe that word of mouth is helpful for this. Building up a reputation as an ethical dentist will help patients and your own business alike. Good guys win (hopefully)

Yeah I think your perspective is great

Today a new patient came in thinking she had a ton of cavities.. all of which ended up being just stains. her sensitivity that came from mild gum recession.
Had she gone to someone unethical, she'd have to dish out thousands doing who knows what on all of them. In that regard, unethical dentist wins.

But like you said, ethical/trustworthy/skilled dentists won't fail because word of mouth is a very very powerful way to bring in more patients. They just won't make millions as easy as the others.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

Luckily, I have a wife who makes more money than me otherwise it would be a lot harder to handle the salary I make compared to my friends. That aside, I truly love being a military dentist. I even said that to 3 patients alone today. What I do is not driven by money. I don't have to worry about overhead. I am never tempted about whether a patient needs one treatment over another and choosing which would make me more money. I get no more money by prepping 3 or 4 crowns on a patient than sitting down with them, explaining to them what is wrong and what they need to correct the pattern of abuse to their teeth. I get to enjoy keeping my patient from repeating a pattern of dental destruction versus just repairing the crap the patients created - proactive vs reactive.

Unfortunely, there are people out there who are driven by money. When that occurs, they tend to make less ethical decisions. Hopefully, this stays the exception vs the rule because if it becomes too widespread I can see legislative action occurring just as it did in medicine.

 

[ajj70]

True, but I'd like to believe that word of mouth is helpful for this. Building up a reputation as an ethical dentist will help patients and your own business alike. Good guys win (hopefully)

One would hope, but in my experience, it's not the case. I've posted before about a dentist we had that was like these in the videos. I went from never having a cavity to having 3, 4, 5 at every appointment.....until he made a mistake and filled the same teeth he had done on a previous appointment. My mom was MAD, reported him to the state dental board, he has several infractions as a matter of fact, and is still practicing. This was 10 years ago..and I haven't had a cavity since.

 

[lazyindy]

so how do NYU and UCSF grads handle the debt while also being ethical dentists? sleep on the streets?...

edit: meant USC

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[lazyindy]

In state tuition at UCSF is $45K per year (https://registrar.ucsf.edu/registration/fees/dentistry), even if they spend $2,500/mo on living expenses they are $300,000 in the hole, much better off than people at a lot of schools. Idk if UCSF is the best example to use for high debt burdens driving unethical decisions. USC on the other hand...

oops I meant USC. thanks for the correction
but it begs the question, are ridiculous tuition prices to blame for dentists practicing unethical dentistry?

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[futureDDS2020]

In state tuition at UCSF is $45K per year (https://registrar.ucsf.edu/registration/fees/dentistry), even if they spend $2,500/mo on living expenses they are $300,000 in the hole, much better off than people at a lot of schools. Idk if UCSF is the best example to use for high debt burdens driving unethical decisions. USC on the other hand...

Lol 300k in debt after going to ucsf? Good luck hitting that number lol. Tuition 45k, kit 12 k, lone fee 216, books 1300 at 4 years puts you at 280k just for tuition/fees. I lived in SF for two years making over 100k/year and barely got by, needless to say saved any money lol. So at a minimal you need 30k a year for living, and this almost seems unrealistic. Tuition plus living you're looking at 400k, and that's being extremely conservative

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[futureDDS2020]

You are grossly underestimating what you will spend on food/transportation/entertainment/bills in general, 700/month will barely get you by, just trying to give you a realistic budget

 

[futureDDS2020]

You're right about the kit, so that's 48K I forgot to use, along with whatever nickel and dime charges you'll get from the school. You can't split a $3,600 2 bedroom with somebody and spend $700 on food and transportation? Is $3,600 really what a rundown 2 bedroom in a dangerous area fit for a broke dental student goes for over there? Is it really possible not to do better?

You are grossly underestimating what you will spend on food/transportation/entertainment/bills in general, 700/month will barely get you by, just trying to give you a realistic budget...if you spend only 30/day on food that puts you at 900 already/month

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[futureDDS2020]

$30/day is way, way, way to much for anybody to be spending on food. If you eat 2 servings of cheap frozen salmon (1/4 of $9 bag so $2.25), two servings of lentils mixed with beans (literally under a dollar), and entire 16oz Greek yougurt ($5 knockoff, $6 chobani), and 6 tbsp of peanut butter ($3 maximum), you are spending too much on food and getting more protein and fat than you need to unless you're a professional body builder at $11/day. I have no sympathy for people who spend their money on food prepared outside their home. The only foods in this list that require any preparation at all are the salmon and lentils, which can be made in under an hour of weekly cooking, even if you do it every 3 or 4 days instead of once a week.

So over-spending and over eating on fat and protein without taxing your pancreas to secrete too much insulin for carb consumption, you're at $330 per month on food. If you want to spend $100 a month on one $25 meal out per week with friends, you're at $430 per month, or half of what you're suggesting is necessary for food. I don't know how much transportation is but I don't think entertainment should be considered in a professional school student's budget at all, which leave $270/month, or over $60/week, on transportation.

How much more than $1,800 can rent and utilities be in a more run-down part of town? It never gets cold enough to freeze the pipes so you never have to use your heat, you can just wear a sweatshirt instead

Lol I can't tell if this is being serious or a joke? In any case, doesn't sound like an even remotely fun way to live, good luck

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[futureDDS2020]

I'm 100% serious. I busted my ass to get into my state school so I wouldn't get murdered by debt, and I'm not gonna spend a dime more than I have to when I'll end up paying back almost double what I borrowed. If you think I'm insane for wanting to live within my means that's one thing, but if you don't believe the prices just make a plan of how many calories and how much fat/protein/carbs you need per day, and fill it using nuts, peanut butter, lentils, eggs, Greek yogurt, and fish if you're a vegetarian/ cheap chicken if you're not. You'll find that with very minimal cooking and preparing time per week you can eat very cheaply and much healthier than sodium filled restaurant food.

Also I am almost positive it has never been cold enough to freeze the pipes in SF. It needs to be in the teens or lower for a good stretch with no heat if you're in a building with other units, because you mooch heat off them.

You gotta do what it takes to save money. I can wait until my debt is paid of to splurge. For now when it's just me, there's no reason to spend money on stuff I don't need and can't afford

Lol we aren't talking about splurging here, you are literally talking about living off scoops of peanut butter, yogurt and lentils, this is not an appropriate way to live for 99% of humans lol. If you spent as much time/energy on saving a buck by eating scoops of peanut butter/nuts and focused on being an oral surgeon you'd be set

 

[futureDDS2020]

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[Scumbag_Steve]

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[futureDDS2020]

It's how I've been living during my year off and it's completely normal. I don't have cable or wifi either. I plan to spend my time and effort in dental school trying to match omfs while doing the same thing I'm doing now. I may be able to buy a home earlier with the money I save over the course of 8-10 years of frugality. Gotta plan for the long haul. Different strokes for different folks I suppose

Groceries are 2-3 times more expensive in SF than anywhere else, if you attempt to buy them in china town for cheap there's nearly a 100% of getting deathly sick at some point, any you have budgeted zero $'s for entertainment, which is an unhealthy way of living 4 years of your life. You may be able to live off this budget, but this is a PSA for the other 99% of students attending ucsf lol...oh and you will need access to the Internet in dental school unless you plan on literally living at the school lol

 

[strep mutans]

If you think I'm insane for wanting to live within my means that's one thing, but if you don't believe the prices just make a plan of how many calories and how much fat/protein/carbs you need per day, and fill it using nuts, peanut butter, lentils, eggs, Greek yogurt, and fish if you're a vegetarian/ cheap chicken if you're not. You'll find that with very minimal cooking and preparing time per week you can eat very cheaply and much healthier than sodium filled restaurant food.

Just wanted to say that A.) this thread is way off topic, and B.) vegetarians do not eat fish, because fish are indeed animals. A person who eats fish but not other meat is usually referred to as a pescatarian. Carry on.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[Scumbag_Steve]

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[futureDDS2020]

Granted I have not factored in the cost difference of groceries, so I'll give you that. Lentils and nuts aren nonperishable so Chinatown works for them but for meat and dairy you're prob right.

Books and exercise are free and very healthy for the lifestyle. So are friend's cable, Netflix, and most importantly their company

I don't plan on living at the school but I do plan on doing my studying there so no wifi = no problem. Gotta spend time there if you're serious about matching after all

If you plan on living near the school, it will cost you 5$ to get to Chinatown, or you are more than welcome to walk, but it will take you 45 mins each way and cut into that study time. I have just set a reminder in my calendar to message you in 5 years and get an update on how living off 250$/month for food and mooching off your friends works out moral of the story, dental school is too expensive, become an oral surgeon

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[Dent5291]

You guys are planning on paying for food? I'll be eating out of the trash can behind KFC for the next 4 years.

 

[capnamerica]

@rxdmx372 How do you manage to remain online these days without wifi? Do you just have a very generous mobile data plan?

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[fogorvostan]

You guys are planning on paying for food? I'll be eating out of the trash can behind KFC for the next 4 years.

I'm hoping to recuperate some of my money lost to loans by keeping every pen I find laying around. Good call on the trash can KFC though.

 

[PocketRocket]

To answer OPs question.. absolutely not!
Patients are getting smarter and a dentist that suggests placing crowns, doing root canals, and replacing bridges for the cost of ~10,000 will repel all business that might come his way. I doubt any of those shady dentists are handling their practice that way anymore if they are still up and running. You just can't survive as a healthcare provider in today's age of information by suggesting such ridiculous tx plans.
Today I had to tell a patient that, based on his insurance benefits, his extractions will cost him around $900. The wtf look on the patients face was priceless. The pt suddenly became skeptical and asked a lot of questions regarding the reason and necessity of the extractions. That is the typical patient!! We had the surgeon come in and explain the dentistry part of it and I was there explaining the insurance and money stuff. I do this pretty much all day and I rarely see someone who is just willing to put down hundreds of dollars on dental treatment because one dentist, whose profession has been historically stigmatized as "shady" by society, suggested it.
It honestly blows my mind that this video is even a thing. No OP...this is not where dentistry is going.. At least as far as the US is concerned. We will have our own separate issues though so don't worry

 

[dent--girl7]

I finally found time to watch this video--wow! The variation in dental treatments makes sense to a degree (certain dentists may be overly conservative in their treatment plans while other dentists are overly aggressive, etc.), but obviously it still doesn't make it right for a dentist to push their own profit agenda at the severe detriment to the patient, who leaves the office racking their brain about how they'll afford $12,000 in procedures when most of that work isn't even necessary.

Like @hellofuturedentists said, hopefully as dental professionals we can provide honest, compassionate care to patients--while allowing them agency in their dental care decisions--and, ultimately, our practices (through positive word of mouth) will be successful.

 

[lazyindy]

$30/day is way, way, way too much for anybody to be spending on food. If you eat 2 servings of cheap frozen salmon (1/4 of $9 bag so $2.25), two servings of lentils mixed with beans (literally under a dollar), and entire 16oz Greek yougurt ($5 knockoff, $6 chobani), and 6 tbsp of peanut butter ($3 maximum), you are spending too much on food and getting more protein and fat than you need to unless you're a professional body builder at $11/day. I have no sympathy for people who spend their money on food prepared outside their home. The only foods in this list that require any preparation at all are the salmon and lentils, which can be made in under an hour of weekly cooking, even if you do it every 3 or 4 days instead of once a week. Same can be said of going to the movies, bars, and minor traveling.

So over-spending and over eating on fat and protein without taxing your pancreas to secrete too much insulin for carb consumption, you're at $330 per month on food. If you want to spend $100 a month on one $25 meal out per week with friends, you're at $430 per month, or half of what you're suggesting is necessary for food. I don't know how much transportation is but I don't think entertainment should be considered in a professional school student's budget at all, which leave $270/month, or over $60/week, on transportation.

How much more than $1,800 can rent and utilities be in a more run-down part of town? It never gets cold enough to freeze the pipes so you never have to use your heat, you can just wear a sweatshirt instead

thats an insane meal plan. I eat healthy most of the time but I'm sorry, there is no way I'm obsessing that much over calories and carbs that I forget to enjoy life altogether. Yes, dental school is a huge commitment but without entertainment, I don't know about you or anyone else here, But I would definitely go insane. I believe it is healthy and even very important to eat out with friends as it builds stronger relationships and keeps you socially sharp. It doesn't have to be every week but a few times a month is totally normal and sane. Same can be said of going to the movies, bars, and some minor traveling.

What you're suggesting is absolutely ridiculous. We might as well kill ourselves if everyone followed your guide to living during dental school.

 

[Apramana]

Costs between San Francisco, CA and Chapel Hill, NC, for reference:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Chapel+Hill,+NC&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco,+CA

"You would need around 8,266.32$ in San Francisco, CA to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 3,900.00$ in Chapel Hill, NC (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index to compare cost of living. This assumes net earnings (after income tax)."
(From the above link, which includes specific cost differences for things like grocery and entertainment.)

[Edit: ... and a similar data point from a source with less transparent methodology:
http://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/chapel_hill_nc/san_francisco_ca/costofliving

"A salary of $50,000 in Chapel Hill, North Carolina should increase to $94,766 in San Francisco, California"
(http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/chapel-hill-nc/san-francisco-ca/50000)]

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[Incis0r]

$30/day is way, way, way too much for anybody to be spending on food

Yep. $30/day is way too much. I mean, that's $10.9K/YEAR!? JEEZ!

If you invested that at 8%, you'd be sitting on $150K at the end of 10 years.

You can get food that tastes good + is healthy for you + meets all your daily caloric/nutrient requirements for much lower. In fact, Mr. Money Mustache does it for $1/meal. Now, I can hear you all going "WHAT!? $1/meal? LOL INCIS0R GET REAL," so to that I will say- yes, it's true that he eats well on $1/meal (and check his blog out if you don't believe me), but he is retired (retired in his 30s- another reason to check out his blog) and has the ability to dedicate time to optimize every part of his life.

For those of us who have tons of other demands on our time like dental school, our cost per meal would be greater since we can't spend all this time optimizing our meal prices, and that's totally OK too. I've been able to make delicious, nutritious meals at home that average out to about $3/meal. That's $3/meal * 2 meal/day * 30 day/month = $180/month in groceries. Add $20/month for oatmeal + milk + fruit (breakfast) and I'm at $200/month. Now, to be fair, I go out once a week so add about $40/month to my monthly spending to hit $240/month.

Could I kill that bill even more? Certainly, but I think I'm alright at this point.

I agree that eating out with friends is a good idea, and that if you tried to eat healthy every single day you'd go nuts. I do what's called Fat F*ck Friday. I eat ridiculously healthy 6 days a week, and Friday I let myself go nuts with terrible food, hopefully in the company of friends.

I completely agree with this- we've got to live and enjoy life too. I'm going to start doing this. I like how you took the "insulin tax" into account too.

Ultimately guys, our most valuable asset is not going to be our dental education. It's going to be our bodies. It's going to be our health. Do cardio, lift, eat healthy and tasty food, and you'll be very satisfied.

 

[Incis0r]

We might as well kill ourselves if everyone followed your guide to living during dental school.

“If you will live like no one else, later you can live like no one else.”- Dave Ramsey

I'd rather live frugally in dental school, and have fewer years of dental school repayment than live lavishly on borrowed money and be in debt prison for more years.

Books and exercise are free and very healthy for the lifestyle. So are friend's cable, Netflix, and most importantly their company

Seriously- people underestimate the value of this. What happened to just spending a day off biking around town? Or hiking? All that stuff is free, healthy, and if you do it with friends, quite enjoyable.

 

[futureDDS2020]

Yep. $30/day is way too much. I mean, that's $10.9K/YEAR!? If you invested that at 8%, you'd be sitting on $150K at the end of 10 years.

You can get food that tastes good + is healthy for you + meets all your daily caloric/nutrient requirements for much lower. In fact, Mr. Money Mustache does it for $1/meal. Now, I can hear you all going "WHAT!? $1/meal? LOL INCIS0R GET REAL," so to that I will say- yes, it's true that he eats well on $1/meal (and check his blog out if you don't believe me), but he is retired (retired in his 30s- another reason to check out his blog) and has the ability to dedicate time to optimize every part of his life.

For those of us who have tons of other demands on our time like dental school, our cost per meal would be greater since we can't spend all this time optimizing our meal prices, and that's totally OK too. I've been able to make delicious, nutritious meals at home that average out to about $3/meal. That's $3/meal * 2 meal/day * 30 day/month = $180/month in groceries. Add $20/month for oatmeal + milk + fruit (breakfast) and I'm at $200/month. Now, to be fair, I go out once a week so add about $40/month to my monthly spending to hit $240/month.

Could I kill that bill even more? Certainly, but I think I'm alright at this point.



I completely agree with this- we've got to live and enjoy life too. I'm going to start doing this. I like how you took the "insulin tax" into account too.

Ultimately guys, our most valuable asset is not going to be our dental education. It's going to be our bodies. It's going to be our health. Do cardio, lift, eat healthy and tasty food, and you'll be very satisfied.

Where on earth can you go out to eat for 10$? Ain't happening in SF that's for sure, if you go out to an average restaurant in SF it will cost you at least 30$/time. And if you decide not to go out with your fellow classmates in to save a couple bucks, good luck because all you are doing is alienating yourself from your future colleagues, something I highly do not recommend and will end up costing you more in lost future income from referrals or people that just don't like you in general lol. Dentistry is ALL about building relationships, and mooching off friends and passing on dinners to save a few bucks will not help your cause, you'll learn this when you're older..

 

[futureDDS2020]

“If you will live like no one else, later you can live like no one else.”- Dave Ramsey

I'd rather live frugally in dental school, and have fewer years of dental school repayment than live lavishly on borrowed money and be in debt prison for more years.
We aren't talking about living lavishly here, that is completely off base, we are talking about living a semi normal life in which won't alienate you from your colleagues. Word of advise, I work with a guy who passes on going out to lunch with his colleagues to save a few bucks and makes everyone else drive him when he does to save gas lol. People don't like this and it's hurt his relationships, cost him promotions, and cost him future income.


Seriously- people underestimate the value of this. What happened to just spending a day off biking around town? Or hiking? All that stuff is free, healthy, and if you do it with friends, quite enjoyable.

 

[Incis0r]

Where on earth can you go out to eat for 10$? Ain't happening in SF that's for sure, if you go out to an average restaurant in SF it will cost you at least 30$/time. And if you decide not to go out with your fellow classmates in to save a couple bucks, good luck because all you are doing is alienating yourself from your future colleagues, something I highly do not recommend and will end up costing you more in lost future income from referrals or people that just don't like you in general lol. Dentistry is ALL about building relationships, and mooching off friends and passing on dinners to save a few bucks will not help your cause, you'll learn this when you're older..

Going out can be something as simple as spending a day hiking with friends and then grabbing a full meal at a fast food chain. Great companionship, delicious food, great outing, much more fun, and much cheaper than just sitting at a restaurant forking over your hard earned dollars for a 1 hour meal.

If you think that you need to spend hundreds of dollars a month to impress people and make friends, and that sticking to a more humble budget is going to destroy one's career in dentistry, then I've got a lake in the Sahara desert to sell you.

Also, if people judge my value as a friend not in terms of my loyalty, kindness, how I look out for my friends, and my sense of ethics, but instead judge me based on how much money I throw down at a restaurant meal, then I don't want them as friends and I'm better off without them.

 

[futureDDS2020]

Going out can be something as simple as spending a day hiking with friends and then grabbing a full meal at a fast food chain. Great companionship, delicious food, great outing, much more fun, and much cheaper than just sitting at a restaurant forking over your hard earned dollars for a 1 hour meal.

If you think that you need to spend hundreds of dollars a month to impress people and make friends, and that sticking to a more humble budget is going to destroy one's career in dentistry, then I've got a lake in the Sahara desert to sell you.

Question 1) how old are you?

Question 2) impress? This isn't impressing, this is accepting a simple invitation to go out to dinner with a group of your classmates, take for a example birthday dinner, you sure as heck will have plenty of those to attend with your classmates. Or what about an engagement party or dinner? Do you plan on passing this up? This is not about "impressing", that's not valid here in anyway

Question 3) how old are you?

Also note in no way am I condoning the behavior of these dentists or justifying their action, you just need to be realistic with this life style you are talking about, you can't live off 250$/month in SF and live a normal happy life, this is my point

 

[Incis0r]

@futureDDS2020 since you are trying to turn this into a personal attack by implying that anyone below your age is not competent to talk about financial matters, this will be my last post responding to you.

I do not believe that one must spend hundreds of dollars a month to have a social life and generate "referrals" from classmates. I do not believe that spending $30/meal is the only way to socialize.

Do I like spending heavily on occasion? Definitely. But are there other, more fun but also economical ways that one can grow friendships and enjoy life? Definitely. And I do these way more than the pricey times going out.

It's clear you and I disagree on our financial views and that's perfectly fine. Good luck to you.