Job market good? I don't think so

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LADoc00

LADoc00

Gen X, the last great generation
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True story: A guy walks into my office several weeks ago out of the blue. Just rambling by the hospital. I entertain him and chat him up as he is a retired pathologist. Apparently he is looking for work. I tell him I dont have an opportunity right now but hey who knows right? He gives me his resume which honest truth I promptly misplace as my office is a mess.

He is worried Im less than enthusiastic so he PREEMPTIVELY has his references actually cold call me. Okay Im still only midly irked.

Then apparently the "references" at his prior job tell the wide world Im somehow hosting a f'ing job faire for down and out pathologists and my phone is blowing up!

People telling me the 'word on the street' is that Im looking for warm washed up bodies on the shores of Greece to sign out cases.

The lesson of this story is: I have 100x more difficulty finding an actual cleaning lady at my vacation home than a pathologist these days.

"it" has hit the fan.
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LADoc- I'm curious as to your take on these current threads for people applying for pathology residencies.
 
This takes being proactive in the job search to a new level. If his references are cold-calling, it sounds they are trying to dump their problem on you. Why don't they find part-time/cross coverage work for him? It could be that his practice was downsizing and he was voted/forced into early retirement by the group, even though he was competent. Also, as long as you were upfront about definitely not having any opportunties, how was it interpreted otherwise resulting in random pathologists blowing up your phone?

If that is the case, it speaks to either: a) The thirst for pathologists trying to land employment is becoming epidemic. b) The people who contacted you have a lack of any kind of people skills and don't know when 'no means no'. c) This is just a single example which represents a microcosm of the pathology universe and goes against the general mantra "good candidates are able to find good jobs" and doesn't reflect the job market as a whole. d) You have the ultimate practice, the stuff that legends are made of. Pathologists come from far and wide to bask in your aura. They see any chance of landing a gig with you as the pinnacle of their career. Acheiving this will set them up for the rest of life and they will live happily ever after...
 
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I am fairly legendary:=|:-):...Still this is very very bizarre. I literally told the first person to call indeed they had "heard it wrong" on the streets but like Syrian refugees egged on by Merkel and the promise of a German Utopia, they just kept calling.

I feel like Hungary now and have begun construction of an electronic fence for my email box...
 
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LADoc, I think we'll know that "it" has really hit the fan when you tell us about having to use water cannons and riot police to keep the crowds of unemployed pathologists from entering your office to apply for work. :)
 
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I can't get over how many AP labs have disappeared.

A sales rep dropped by recently and sat in my office for about an hour. Out of curiousity I asked her how many AP labs there still are in the region. Due to all the consolidation, I knew quite a few had closed up shop. When she told me my jaw hit the ground. We are rapidly heading toward a few core AP/micro labs in each region and it is happening at a pace that should be scaring people. :scared:
 
I live about 100 miles from the near population center. I got a cold call from a recruiter asking about permanent positions a few weeks ago. I told him no hiring on the horizon.
I get a call from locums recruiters every six months for last few years.
I don't know that things are getting worse but they are not getting better.

The only safe area is molecular path IMO.
 
WEBB PINKERTON said:
I can't get over how many AP labs have disappeared.

A sales rep dropped by recently and sat in my office for about an hour. Out of curiousity I asked her how many AP labs there still are in the region. Due to all the consolidation, I knew quite a few had closed up shop. When she told me my jaw hit the ground. We are rapidly heading toward a few core AP/micro labs in each region and it is happening at a pace that should be scaring people. :scared:
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People don't know or care. Hell, patients are already told that their biopsy results will take 10 days to two weeks ( so they don't bug the clinicians after a few days).
 
I still say the safest jobs are subspecialty surgery. Those guys are treated like kings and queens by the various hospital administrations no matter whether they are employed or in private practice. My brother in law went from private practice general ortho/trauma ortho to employed by a hospital chain and his salary has gone up 20% per contract (on his 3rd 5 year one). Plus he gets 2000k a extra night to cover trauma call no matter if there is a case or not 3-4 nights a month. Any pathologist out there in practice that have income gone up 20% every 5 years (assuming you aren't just starting out)?

One of the neurosurgeons at my hospital just bought a medical office building.

An ophthalmologist at my hospital just built his own medical office building to move his solo practice into ans rent out to other docs.

The urologists all drive 100,000+ cars.

Now I am not advocating making career decisions solely by salary, but if subspecialty surgical fields were collapsing as rapidly as pathology they wouldn't be getting paid more and more each contract by for profit hospital chains. They wouldn't be buying office buildings and they wouldn't be drive BMW 8 series to work.
 
I agree with you although cars are a totally meaningless indicator of anything aside from conspicuous consumption. I had one Mexican cleaning lady who drove a BMW SUV to clean my toliets and Dr. Bostwick, worth an estimated $200,000,000-500,000,000 at his prime drove a Ford Taurus....

The REALLY rich people I know all drive Lincoln towncars too. Are most Lincoln towncar owners worth >$1o,000,000? Of course not but the lesson is the real rich not the faux rich dont drive the cars you would imagine they would drive.

Read T. Stanley's Millionaire Next Door.
 
The BMW i8 is one sick ride...But, I agree one's ride ≠ wealth/income. There are plenty of well-off pathologists out there and they are notorious for driving around beaters compared to other specialties for some reason.

LADoc00 said:
...Dr. Bostwick, worth an estimated $200,000,000-500,000,000
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Are you sure about these numbers or did you add an extra zero there? You're quoting up to half a billion :greedy: No way he makes this from owning a couple of private labs, authoring books, or consulting fees. He must've been in on some kind of patent or innovative technology that was a medical breakthrough and hit the jackpot...
 
coroner said:
The BMW i8 is one sick ride...But, I agree one's ride ≠ wealth/income. There are plenty of well-off pathologists out there and they are notorious for driving around beaters compared to other specialties for some reason.


Are you sure about these numbers or did you add an extra zero there? You're quoting up to half a billion :greedy: No way he makes this from owning a couple of private labs, authoring books, or consulting fees. He must've been in on some kind of patent or innovative technology that was a medical breakthrough and hit the jackpot...
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Bostwick labs was a large operation back in the day. They had labs in New York, Virginia, Florida, Tennessee (i think) and maybe even some other locations. Even in my remote outpost, I had to deal with them trying to get business. The problem they caused for me was the endometrial sampling device they had a monopoly on. Think it was called Tao brush. All the gyns were demanding it instead of the pipelle. Other than that, I can't think of anything else they offered that you couldn't get somewhere else.
 
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The future of pathology is more consolidation and fewer jobs.

Shortage...crap academics, professional organizations, and corporate labs trying to sell. They love cheap labor.

Keep living like residents and have the money so your family is ok when your job is gone.
 
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Bostwick labs in its heyday was beyond massive. And the number I quote is from public sources.
 
Speaking of labs from the past...Whatever happened with OurLab? Seems like LADoc kept saying they would go out of business. I think the founder of the company used to post job openings on this website from time to time.
 
WEBB PINKERTON said:
Speaking of labs from the past...Whatever happened with OurLab? Seems like LADoc kept saying they would go out of business. I think the founder of the company used to post job openings on this website from time to time.
Click to expand...
Another company bought OUR Labs, called Opko I believe.
 
LADoc00 said:
True story: A guy walks into my office several weeks ago out of the blue. Just rambling by the hospital. I entertain him and chat him up as he is a retired pathologist. Apparently he is looking for work. I tell him I dont have an opportunity right now but hey who knows right? He gives me his resume which honest truth I promptly misplace as my office is a mess.

He is worried Im less than enthusiastic so he PREEMPTIVELY has his references actually cold call me. Okay Im still only midly irked.

Then apparently the "references" at his prior job tell the wide world Im somehow hosting a f'ing job faire for down and out pathologists and my phone is blowing up!

People telling me the 'word on the street' is that Im looking for warm washed up bodies on the shores of Greece to sign out cases.

The lesson of this story is: I have 100x more difficulty finding an actual cleaning lady at my vacation home than a pathologist these days.

"it" has hit the fan.
Click to expand...
 
What is with people quoting but not replying to the quote? What's the point of that?
 
Still a very good market in forensic path for people who are competent and have basic social skills. Salaries have gone up nicely in the last few years as well with many offices offering close to 200K now. It's not LADoc money, but great job security and I know few FPs who are at the office past 5pm with any regularity. And it's only going to get better. Next week is one of our big annual conferences, and the >50 y/o far outnumber the < 40 y/o crowd.
 
I think if you are in a place where you can comfortably build a life on 200K/yr, more power to you.

I would guess many of the issues people face where I am is due to the sky high cost of living.

I could theoretically live on 200K/year but it would have to be after I reach my 250K target for my each of kid's educational savings funds, pay off all of my properties (and thus and have free and clear rental income from them) and have a fully funded retirement account with around 4M....cant really doing all that if Im only making 200 during the growth phase of my career.
 
LADoc00 said:
I think if you are in a place where you can comfortably build a life on 200K/yr, more power to you.

I would guess many of the issues people face where I am is due to the sky high cost of living.

I could theoretically live on 200K/year but it would have to be after I reach my 250K target for my each of kid's educational savings funds, pay off all of my properties (and thus and have free and clear rental income from them) and have a fully funded retirement account with around 4M....cant really doing all that if Im only making 200 during the growth phase of my career.
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No argument on any of that stuff, LA. That's part of why I'm thrilled to live in Canada now. We can debate all the pros/cons until we're blue in the face, but not having to pay for health insurance and not having to save for super expensive higher education for one's kids makes a big difference in financial plannings for one's family.

But I agree, in many parts of the country, meeting financial obligations like educational debt, buying a nice home, and long-term savings is not easy on 200K per year total family gross income.
 
mlw03 said:
...is not easy on 200K per year total family gross income.
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And here I am trying to survive on $8k by teaching community college part time while I fill out apps. :p

I'm about ready to just give up and become a bartender/mechanic. At least they have no problem finding work.
 
LADoc00 said:
I think if you are in a place where you can comfortably build a life on 200K/yr, more power to you.

I would guess many of the issues people face where I am is due to the sky high cost of living.

I could theoretically live on 200K/year but it would have to be after I reach my 250K target for my each of kid's educational savings funds, pay off all of my properties (and thus and have free and clear rental income from them) and have a fully funded retirement account with around 4M....cant really doing all that if Im only making 200 during the growth phase of my career.
Click to expand...

lol. I grew up in a family of 5 that brought in less than 50k per year total. All my siblings and I were fine. We had everything we needed. And you're saying 200k (not including your spouse's income) wouldn't be enough to pay for your multiple houses and 4 million retirement...hilarious. You'd survive just fine with 200k or even less.

Its great when people worked hard and make a lot and live well, no need to feel guilty about that, enjoy it! but don't let it warp your sense of reality...
 
Captain DO said:
lol. I grew up in a family of 5 that brought in less than 50k per year total. All my siblings and I were fine. We had everything we needed. And you're saying 200k (not including your spouse's income) wouldn't be enough to pay for your multiple houses and 4 million retirement...hilarious. You'd survive just fine with 200k or even less.

Its great when people worked hard and make a lot and live well, no need to feel guilty about that, enjoy it! but don't let it warp your sense of reality...
Click to expand...

This is getting a bit off topic, but it's a different financial world in 2015. Housing costs have gone up in most parts of the US (and Canada) such that finding a nice middle class home to raise a family in for less than 500K is a challenge. Do the math for a mortgage, add on health insurance, educational debt repayment, maybe private school if you live in a city with crappy public ed, and 200K doesn't go that far, particularly if one is trying to save enough to retire by 60-65 and have enough to potentially live until 90. This isn't to demean the struggles of the working poor, but rather it's to say that 200K for a physician really doesn't go that far.
 
mlw03 said:
This is getting a bit off topic, but it's a different financial world in 2015. Housing costs have gone up in most parts of the US (and Canada) such that finding a nice middle class home to raise a family in for less than 500K is a challenge. Do the math for a mortgage, add on health insurance, educational debt repayment, maybe private school if you live in a city with crappy public ed, and 200K doesn't go that far, particularly if one is trying to save enough to retire by 60-65 and have enough to potentially live until 90. This isn't to demean the struggles of the working poor, but rather it's to say that 200K for a physician really doesn't go that far.
Click to expand...

Please stop making these kinds of posts. It's the reason the general public hate those rich greedy doctors who think they need a minimum of 9-10x the average household income to make a decent living.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Please stop making these kinds of posts. It's the reason the general public hate those rich greedy doctors who think they need a minimum of 9-10x the average household income to make a decent living.
Click to expand...

I thought mlw's comment was pretty tempered. I mean if you were going to respond like that I'd of thought that you'd do it in response to LADoc's post, which was more pointedly bombastic.
 
Cost of living pretty good here in Kentucky/Southern Indiana area. Cigarettes are dirt cheap in Kentucky, which is good for pathologists as well. Come to Kentucky my friends.

I agree that 200k in many parts of the US is pretty difficult to live on.

Oh well, Trump is going to fix everything soon so just hang in there. :laugh:
 
Don't get me wrong, I love what I earn. But saying "$200K is pretty difficult to live on" is just NOT true, folks. To live the way you WANT to live? Sure. To have money for investment properties, money for international travel, to have a huge retirement account, to be able to pay cash for your kids' college, to have two luxury cars in the driveway, and to have your 4000+sf home with a manicured yard and a pool - yes, $200K/year might be cutting it close. But like Captain DO, my parents never earned anything close to that, none of my siblings earn anything close to that, almost none of my non-MD friends earn anything close to that, and they're all living fine. No one's going hungry and no one's on the streets panhandling. I know our expectations go up as our incomes go up, but let's try to be realistic here. I know plenty of MDs making $200K or less in the very expensive metro-Boston area, not a one of them is struggling.
 
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I wish I had a story about how my dad supported 5 kids while working at the asbestos factory making 40,000 a year back in the 1980s. :rolleyes: Luckily I grew up far differently.

I guess we need to quit whining and lower our expectations for this field even more.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Please stop making these kinds of posts. It's the reason the general public hate those rich greedy doctors who think they need a minimum of 9-10x the average household income to make a decent living.
Click to expand...

John Q. Public also doesn't start gainful employment at 26/27 with $150 k in non-dischargable debt unbacked by real assets with a 5-6% vig. Rule of 72 my friend.

As Heraclitus wrote, "No one steps into the same river twice, for always different waters flow."

Our parents lived and retired in a world where the dollar was the world's unchallenged reserve currency, pensions were the norm, and social security was funded. I don't plan on any of those things being the case when I retire. On a 200k annual salary one can live la dolce vita or build the $2 million portfolio by 50--not both.

In San Francsico (the city of my birth) where the average home cost rose above $1 million last year and my old Catholic high school costs 20k per year... Well you do the math. That's why there are more dogs than children in San Francisco.

#WinterIsComing
 
Captain DO said:
lol. I grew up in a family of 5 that brought in less than 50k per year total. All my siblings and I were fine. We had everything we needed. And you're saying 200k (not including your spouse's income) wouldn't be enough to pay for your multiple houses and 4 million retirement...hilarious. You'd survive just fine with 200k or even less.

Its great when people worked hard and make a lot and live well, no need to feel guilty about that, enjoy it! but don't let it warp your sense of reality...
Click to expand...

There is a BIG mountain of difference between what you NEED and what you will settle for. I need very little. I grew up in a family of NINE on 50K/year or less, so your point is moot.

Yes I can survive as a member of the working poor, but unlike my parents I will neither tolerate nor endure it.

There is no substitute for total victory.
 
Ziehl-Nielsen said:
John Q. Public also doesn't start gainful employment at 26/27 with $150 k in non-dischargable debt unbacked by real assets with a 5-6% vig. Rule of 72 my friend.

As Heraclitus wrote, "No one steps into the same river twice, for always different waters flow."

Our parents lived and retired in a world where the dollar was the world's unchallenged reserve currency, pensions were the norm, and social security was funded. I don't plan on any of those things being the case when I retire. On a 200k annual salary one can live la dolce vita or build the $2 million portfolio by 50--not both.

In San Francsico (the city of my birth) where the average home cost rose above $1 million last year and my old Catholic high school costs 20k per year... Well you do the math. That's why there are more dogs than children in San Francisco.

#WinterIsComing
Click to expand...

Soon there will be more dogs than kids in the central Bay Area. Right http://www.mansionglobal.com/articles/10604-berkeley’s-price-peak
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Please stop making these kinds of posts. It's the reason the general public hate those rich greedy doctors who think they need a minimum of 9-10x the average household income to make a decent living.
Click to expand...
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Income considerations are relative to cost of living, and I don't think a physician should apologize for wanting a middle class life after all the work we put in, and the stress and hard work we do. I also disagree with your statistics - mean household US income is probably well above 20K. Median even higher, but we know it's a right skewed distribution. I'd put 200K more at 4-5X average income.
 
Captain DO said:
lol. I grew up in a family of 5 that brought in less than 50k per year total. All my siblings and I were fine. We had everything we needed. And you're saying 200k (not including your spouse's income) wouldn't be enough to pay for your multiple houses and 4 million retirement...hilarious. You'd survive just fine with 200k or even less.

Its great when people worked hard and make a lot and live well, no need to feel guilty about that, enjoy it! but don't let it warp your sense of reality...
Click to expand...

The truth is that in this country your lifestyle /reward doesn't change much from the UPS guy earning 75k a year to a physician earning 200k a year:

http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html

No one is arguing you cant survive on 200k a year. If you want to work as hard as you do, take on the liability and debt, and go thorough that many years of training to live the same lifestyle / reap the same rewards as the UPS guy- feel free. I sure as hell wouldn't do it for that much.
 
doctalaughs said:
The truth is that in this country your lifestyle /reward doesn't change much from the UPS guy earning 75k a year to a physician earning 200k a year:

http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html

No one is arguing you cant survive on 200k a year. If you want to work as hard as you do, take on the liability and debt, and go thorough that many years of training to live the same lifestyle / reap the same rewards as the UPS guy- feel free. I sure as hell wouldn't do it for that much.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's actually more worthwhile to suck it up and re-apply to another residency than it is to continue working as a pathologist. Really. It's that bad out there. I think the only way to avoid this is to do a path residency at one of the big academic powerhouse centers. Slumming it in Mississippi isn't going to get you anywhere.

As far as I see it, pathology's a mistake best left to those with no other options, or to those who truly have all the options. Maybe it wasn't like that in the past, but it's like that now.
 
Over9000 said:
Agreed. It's actually more worthwhile to suck it up and re-apply to another residency than it is to continue working as a pathologist. Really. It's that bad out there. I think the only way to avoid this is to do a path residency at one of the big academic powerhouse centers. Slumming it in Mississippi isn't going to get you anywhere.

As far as I see it, pathology's a mistake best left to those with no other options, or to those who truly have all the options. Maybe it wasn't like that in the past, but it's like that now.
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Over9000, you say you wanna leave Pathology, but you still come on here to complain. You say you want to switch fields and recommend residents to switch out of pathology. Im not saying the Pathology job market is great or even good at all. Leave Pathology then and switch to another field if you havent and just go away. Are you still working as a pathologist? Are you a resident/fellow? Why dont you just switch, get out of Pathology, stop commenting on SDN and move on with your life if you hate your life so much?
 
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MetroPath said:
Over9000, you say you wanna leave Pathology, but you still come on here to complain. You say you want to switch fields and recommend residents to switch out of pathology. Im not saying the Pathology job market is great or even good at all. Leave Pathology then and switch to another field if you havent and just go away. Are you still working as a pathologist? Are you a resident/fellow? Why dont you just switch, get out of Pathology, stop commenting on SDN and move on with your life if you hate your life so much?
Click to expand...

Just doing my professional duty to warn people away from a field that offers lesser opportunities than other alternatives.
 
All my coresidents have jobs. They are happy with their jobs. No one has ever complained to me. Only on SDN will you meet people like yourself who come on here and vent how miserable they are. No field is optimal. Of course there are some fields better positioned than ours.

Just leave Pathology and do something that makes you happy. Its an easy solution. What field are you in anyways? Let us know what you have chosen as the better alternative. You really went back into training after 4+ years of Pathology training? To me, thats an incredible setback. I may be mistaken but aren't you allowed only so many years of training?
 
LADoc00 said:
There is a BIG mountain of difference between what you NEED and what you will settle for. I need very little. I grew up in a family of NINE on 50K/year or less, so your point is moot.

Yes I can survive as a member of the working poor, but unlike my parents I will neither tolerate nor endure it.

There is no substitute for total victory.
Click to expand...

That was my point.
But you knew that, that post was just an explanation for everyone else. ;)

I admit I did get teary eyed while reading your story about not being able to hit 4million with 200k. Should write a book about your heartbreaking tale.
 
Over9000 said:
Just doing my professional duty to warn people away from a field that offers lesser opportunities than other alternatives.
Click to expand...

If everyone stays away, wont the demand for pathology skyrocket in a decade or so, with high paying jobs popping up right and left due to the shortage? Is that how it typically goes in medicine? That's a genuine question btw...im curious about trends.
 
A few months ago I posted information showing that the starting salary for Assistant Professors increased more than the cost of living. Assistant professor salary data were used because it is available and reported by the AAMC from actual compensation files rather than self reporting.

The point of that prior post was to debunk the myth that there is a glut of pathologists resulting in lower starting salaries. If there was an overabundance of pathologists then pathology chairs could easily go out and hire less expensive pathologists. The original post showing the trend is listed below.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...larger-than-cost-of-living-increases.1132943/

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center
 
Thank you for reposting that BU. While this may be true, I feel that an additional line showing student loan debt would be almost asymptotic. For example, my medical school cost 10-14k/year in the early 2000s. From what I have heard it is more than triple that now.
 
FYI in some parts of the country 200K is a tad over 2x the annual average household income.

Then calculate:
1.) Time value of the income lost during 4 years of medical school and 4-5 of residency, even a modest savings at age 21-29 will create a sizable wealth advantage over handicapped physicians for the "average educated household"
2.) student loans + compounding interest which in many cases is almost a 2nd mortgage yet builds zero wealth/equity

A career in medicine for the average 150-200,000/yr salaried M.D. who went to a private medical school (and perhaps a public undergrad) is fairly close to a losing economic proposition at this point. This is completely ignoring the 9-10 years of additional lower standard of living you will have vs. a nurse, executive type etc. Given the average lifespan, your last 30 years BETTER be "baller" which often they arent even close sadly.
 
Now a guy has to do 2-3 fellowships, 2-3 years of "junior faculty", another tenure as "instructor", then "associate professor", then can become a great "assistant professor" and make it big time earning 250k including benefits which may mean a 50k Obamacare policy and another chunk for Medicare and social security which you are likely to never see. Then the carrot of assistant professor is moved as you climb the totem pole, having been slowly cooked to perfection by academia. Then the university loses your business to the commoditized lab down the street so they cut you and hire a fresh junior faculty fish.
 
Johns Hopkins will be hiring 10 pathologists, the information was just posted in the job listings along with the contact information.
 
"I just wanted to give you some feedback on the ad I placed with you on pathology outlines. I have received over 50 applications for our position and though the majority were people in training I was able to find some excellent candidates and as such would now like to de-activate my ad." Alvin W Martin M.D., CPA Lab, 1 October 2015

A bunch of new grads fighting for a job, from a person who isn't interested in hiring people new grads. The we need a pathologist, but they need to have 5-10 years of previous experience. Yep with the current shortage, they are really going after the new grads now...ha.

At least the number is down to 50+, but if he would have waited long enough maybe could have got to the typical 100+ applicants.

How to find a pathologist: place ad, cancel ad due to overwhelming response.
 
Hopkins isn't going to take some fresh new grad unless they're internal or from one of the big Ivys.

For the mid-tier-and-below pathologists, the opportunities are still scarce.
 
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