Johns Hopkins vs. UCLA?

[Steeler7588]

For the first 2 years, P/F isn't that big of a deal but during your clinical years it really matters to residency directors how you graded out along the "pass" range. Also, having everything P/F detracts from the drive to learn. People just aim to "pass" which could potentially impact their Step 1 scores and their ability to really understand the physiology behind disease and subsequent pathophysiology explanation when the attendings pimp you in the wards. So, yeah in the short term it's nice to not worry about grades but would you risk looking like a fool in front of your attending one day?

Yes, I think it's a little better to be graded during your core clinical year to kinda place you with respect to your classmates. But research has shown that P/F in the basic science years decreases stress levels but has no negative effect on learning outcomes. Medical students are a motivated group, and will learn the material even without the pressure of an "Honors" carrot hanging in front of them.

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[bookfreak89]

Yes, I think it's a little better to be graded during your core clinical year to kinda place you with respect to your classmates. But research has shown that P/F in the basic science years decreases stress levels but has no negative effect on learning outcomes. Medical students are a motivated group, and will learn the material even without the pressure of an "Honors" carrot hanging in front of them.

Really even with internal ranking/letters of distinction/AOA? Interesting. I agree that P/F doesn't (or shouldn't) decrease a student's desire to learn the material (need to get that P somehow).

 

[JasonE]

back to the topic. id choose hopkins. who wouldn't go to the school that gets more NIH money? duh...

 

[ApoK]

Stanford was my #1! Sadly, I got turned down. UCLA and Berkeley were too expensive haha (Princeton's Fin Aid is pretty unbeatable).

A testament to how damn random admissions is for undergrad and medical school. Hmm, I wonder why Stanford would turn down someone but Princeton would take them? At least it worked out that you ended up at an ever better school. It must be nice learning from some of the finest economists in the world.

 

[phospho]

Currently, Yale is p/f for the first two years and then has grades for the clinical years.

But I was talking with a professor who used to be a residency director at one of the Harvard hospitals (or was involved with the residency process in some way, I can't remember) and he was telling me that even when Yale had all P/F and "no internal rankings," they (the residency programs) still had ways of finding out who the "real top" students were. Sometimes all it takes is a phone call or a certain wording in the dean's letter.

So to me, this idea that you can go into your residency applications on equal footing with all of your classmates because "hey, we all got passes" is a little silly.

Ultimately, residency directors are going to want to know "ok, but really, which of these students from this school is the best?" and they're going to find out somehow -- whether it's by looking at your transcript that shows all Hs or by looking at your dean's letter that says "___ is hands down our brightest student," you're still going to be compared in some ways to other applicants from your school

yeah, i definitely want to be compared with my peers when i'm doing clinicals... i was talking strictly about basic sciences (sorry I didn't make that clear)... besides, that's what step 1 is for anyways - to separate the students... that's why I believe that all schools should adopt some sort of strictly p/f system for preclinicals...

 

[bobsmith]

back to the topic. id choose hopkins. who wouldn't go to the school that gets more NIH money? duh...

seriously! i don't even know why people bother looking at other factors

 

[Steeler7588]

Really even with internal ranking/letters of distinction/AOA? Interesting. I agree that P/F doesn't (or shouldn't) decrease a student's desire to learn the material (need to get that P somehow).

I think the students they analyzed were considered for AOA, but there was no ranking / letters of distinction. I agree that any P/F system that ranks defeats the purpose at least a little bit (although pre-clinical grades are pretty unimportant).

 

[bobsmith]

yeah, i definitely want to be compared with my peers when i'm doing clinicals... i was talking strictly about basic sciences (sorry I didn't make that clear)... besides, that's what step 1 is for anyways - to separate the students... that's why I believe that all schools should adopt some sort of strictly p/f system for preclinicals...

oh, i totally agree on having p/f preclinical years. and even though I was directly quoting you, I guess my long-windedness was more directed at anybody who was oooh-ing and ahhh-ing at the idea of 4 years of p/f

 

[bookfreak89]

I think the students they analyzed were considered for AOA, but there was no ranking / letters of distinction. I agree that any P/F system that ranks defeats the purpose at least a little bit (although pre-clinical grades are pretty unimportant).

Personally, I think that no matter how medical schools try to minimize stress and/or competition, they will always be present regardless of the circumstances (unless you eliminated grades entirely, which would be silly). It is your decision whether you want to be influenced by the competitive/stressed atmosphere or not, which is why I think statements such as 'seemingly more relaxed students/less competitive/etc.' are not valid rationales to make your final medical school decisions.

 

[JasonE]

Personally, I think that no matter how medical schools try to minimize stress or competition, they will always be present regardless of the circumstances (unless you eliminated grades entirely, which would be silly). It is your decision whether you want to be influenced by the competitive/stressed atmosphere or not.

true statement

 

[bobsmith]

Personally, I think that no matter how medical schools try to minimize stress and/or competition, they will always be present regardless of the circumstances (unless you eliminated grades entirely, which would be silly). It is your decision whether you want to be influenced by the competitive/stressed atmosphere or not, which is why I think statements such as 'seemingly more relaxed students/less competitive/etc.' are not valid rationales to make your final medical school decisions.

When we're talking about pre-clinical years, though, I would imagine a pretty different level of school-imposed stress from schools that employ two different types of preclinical years:
School A: Has Honors/Pass/Fail, with Honors given to students who are one standard deviation above the mean in a block
School B: Has strictly Pass/Fail, with AOA dependent on clinical grades

I'm not planning on going into a competitive specialty, but I'd imagine that if I were, I think more of my time at school A would be spent hitting the books trying to honor at least a few blocks, while at school B, I could worry less about trying to remember really nitpicky minor details and instead maybe spend time on a research project or something.

And in case anyone was curious, school A is Pitt, school B is Michigan

edit: oops, sorry, just realized I'm contributing to taking this thread off-topic. To get back to the topic at hand, I don't think I'd like living in Baltimore, so I'd probably choose UCLA (it's also closer to home for me).

 

[schrizto]

A testament to how damn random admissions is for undergrad and medical school. Hmm, I wonder why Stanford would turn down someone but Princeton would take them? At least it worked out that you ended up at an ever better school. It must be nice learning from some of the finest economists in the world.

It happens really often. A friend of mine was rejected Stanford EA but accepted to Princeton. Another was rejected at Princeton and Yale but accepted to Harvard.

I'm a huge UCLA fanboy

I always wondered if you were a guy or a girl and now this has been answered...

 

[alibai3ah]

It happens really often. A friend of mine was rejected Stanford EA but accepted to Princeton. Another was rejected at Princeton and Yale but accepted to Harvard....

Stanford and Princeton are pretty neck and neck when it comes to prestige (In the West Coast, Stanford might even have the edge). And with Stanford's farrrrrrrrrrrr better location, I think many more people would want to be there instead of princeton.

To the OP, UCLA without a doubt

1) Cost
2) Better location/weather
3) A Great shot at a California residency (and a good one)
4) Better looking people...
5) Sports/Actual college town scene

 

[bookfreak89]

Stanford and Princeton are pretty neck and neck when it comes to prestige (In the West Coast, Stanford might even have the edge). And with Stanford's farrrrrrrrrrrr better location, I think many more people would want to be there instead of princeton.

To the OP, UCLA without a doubt

1) Cost
2) Better location/weather
3) A Great shot at a California residency (and a good one)
4) Better looking people...
5) Sports/Actual college town scene

Every year within each Princeton class, California has the highest representation out of all the states.

Anyways, I would be somewhat torn if I had to make this decision. Both have perks and drawbacks. However, the one that has more PBL gets docked a couple points in my book.

 

[alibai3ah]

Every year within each Princeton class, California has the highest representation out of all the states.

Anyways, I would be somewhat torn if I had to make this decision. Both have perks and drawbacks. However, the one that has more PBL gets docked a couple points in my book.

That could be as a result of there being a high number of California applicants overall. I'm sure California is well represented in ALL private east coast, west coast, south, and midwest schools. Additionally, those kids could have just not gotten into Stanford as was stated in the example above....

 

[questions99]

hmm i dunno, back to the rankings thing, i heard a lot of non-harvard pple dont like those kids cuz they dont get the training you get at say ucsf or washington, if it were purely clinical rankings, i wuold understand stanford, etc. being low, but not harvard being so high...

 

[bookfreak89]

That could be as a result of there being a high number of California applicants overall. I'm sure California is well represented in ALL private east coast, west coast, south, and midwest schools. Additionally, those kids could have just not gotten into Stanford as was stated in the example above....

True. I was just stating it for the record.

 

[randombetch]

I always felt it was like this:
National prestige: Princeton > Stanford slightly
International prestige: Stanford > Princeton

As far as cross-admits choices...
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/09/17/weekinreview/20060917_LEONHARDT_CHART.html

I'm sure that has changed since Princeton got rid of early decision, but back then Stanford and Princeton were 52:48.

 

[w8ting2exhale]

I'd choose UCLA. 1) Weather, 2) people, 3) proximity to home (seattle), 4) pac-10 sports, 5) cost.

I feel as though both UCLA and Hopkins will give you great residency opportunities. Both will have amazing faculty and great curriculum and peers (although I'd be afraid of gunners at Hopkins, and I hate gunners).

Just pick the one that "feels" right.

I've heard this rumor so many times that I actually believed it...that is until I actually went to the place for my interview. I was pleasantly "surprised" by how completely false it was. Now it's just laughable. Nevertheless, I think the rumor may have emanated from the fact that Hopkins had intense grading systems for a long while (grades then HP/H/P/F). not cool. They recently switched to pass/fail though so they're definitely catching up with the trend and it's all good.

Anyways, to answer the OP's question, if I was in Cali, I would pick UCLA but since I'm since an East Coaster, I'll throw my vote in for Hopkins. I didn't apply to any Cali schools cuz they're too far.

 

[mdeast]

I've heard this rumor so many times that I actually believed it...that is until I actually went to the place for my interview. I was pleasantly "surprised" by how completely false it was. Now it's just laughable. Nevertheless, I think the rumor may have emanated from the fact that Hopkins had intense grading systems for a long while (grades then HP/H/P/F). not cool. They recently switched to pass/fail though so they're definitely catching up with the trend and it's all good.

Anyways, to answer the OP's question, if I was in Cali, I would pick UCLA but since I'm since an East Coaster, I'll throw my vote in for Hopkins. I didn't apply to any Cali schools cuz they're too far.

I think "the rumors" come from the fact that JHU's undergrad pre-meds are so competitive. I spent 2 full weeks, 50-60 hours a week, interning in neurology at JHU one winter break as an undergrad. And while this certainly can't be the case for all of JHU undergrads, the med school is swarming with pre-med students and the three or four I met were horrendously annoying. I personally find it bizarre when in the first two minutes of meeting someone, you already know their GPA and what they got on their last orgo test.

In this case, though, I'd choose UCLA. JHU is awesome, it has a great clinical reputation, see the best cases in the world, has phenomenal research. It deserves it's place as the #1 hospital in America. It's just a great medical school.

But UCLA has many of the same opportunities, in a cheaper package, with better weather and overall quality of life. If you're used to living in a decent city, Baltimore is not fun. Yes, it has a few nice districts, revitalization along the waterfront, etc. But don't go to JHU med school for the social scene of it's city. It's not a positive, especially given the med school's specific location.

 

[INTPThinker]

I've actually heard that JHU kids are really nice... not elitist at all. Maybe the professors but not the students (at least not all of them).

UCLA I would choose because of everything brygguy1 mentioned except for home and Pac-1 sports. SEC football baby!! 4 straight national championships.

I def think its more the professors than the students. Students are awesome...professors thats a different ball game. I took some classes and worked there.

 

[bobdogsam43]

For those curious about the UCLA Class of 2013......there are MANY kids that turned down Harvard, Baylor, Duke, Hopkins, Mayo, Yale, UCSF, etc.

I was deciding between UCLA and UCSF.

 

[metallica81788]

seriously! i don't even know why people bother looking at other factors

sarcasm ftw