KCUMB to offer MD,DO degree?????

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DO Anes said:
1. The better schools get LCME approved and offer the DO/MD.
2. Applicants to DO/MD skyrocket, DO only dwindle.
3. The RVU's, branch campuses, ATSU hubs, etc. close.
4. DO/MD schools drop the DO.
5. As economy impacts health care, Fed Govt eliminates reimbursement for most DO's who did not grad from LCME institution or ACGME residency.
6. ACGME closes to DO's.
7. Few remaining DO's limited to manipulation only, but eligible to apply for accelerated admission to chiropractic schools.

I didn't mention the AOA or COCA, as they are irrelevant.
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Interesting ... what would you define as the 'better' ones. I feel like some of the schools that are oldest (KCOM, PCOM) also have the strongest ties and would be most defiant towards offering an MD/DO degree, though they would probably stand the best chance of getting LCME cred.
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That letter was also circulated to faculty/admin at DMU. Not sure about other schools. Heard from two reliable sources at DMU that our dean has been trying to get the MD,DO dual degree program started. Apparently the LCME already met with him and admin.
 
Boner said:
That letter was also circulated to faculty/admin at DMU. Not sure about other schools. Heard from two reliable sources at DMU that our dean has been trying to get the MD,DO dual degree program started. Apparently the LCME already met with him and admin.
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Interesting. I remember hearing a while ago about DMU's LCME visit. Any opinion on other schools following suit/what this would mean for you as an alumni of a school that made the dual program at a later point??
 
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Once one school does it, any school that does not follow suit goes out of business practically overnight and the DO becomes a truly second-rate degree. If they are serious about protecting the profession, COCA should revoke accreditation of any school offering a dual DO/MD degree.
But when was the last time COCA did anything to protect this profession?
I wonder if the president of the AOA will make any sort of "brave" statement about this?
At this point, I would strongly discourage anyone from entering a DO school, unless it gets straightened out (except for KCUMB, of course).

George Mychaskiw II, DO, FAAP, FACOP
KCUMB, class of 1988
 
Like I said earlier, are you guys against branching of campuses completely? Or is the major problem against the touro's and lecom's that keep popping up everywhere?

It has made me worry the more I read into it about the pcom campus, and I really liked it when I interviewed there.

So, do you think if a switch did occur PCOM's branch in Georgia and CCOM's branch in AZ would risk being lost?
 
I am in favor of a more logical medical credential. The branched campuses do have to go through accreditation, and I would argue that a lot of them do open up in locations that lack medical school opportunities. Take for example the Touro Nevada and Touro New York. It is worth noting that should these schools risk closure, millions of dollars and thousands of potential doctors that can study and serve in these areas will be lost. If this does get pushed through, I hope other schools follow suit should this dual degree begin to be offered, but I also hope that it does not become a free for all and students that hold only the DO degree will be left to fight for their rights. There are too many osteopathic students to have this happen. I am not in favor, however, of having a scenario in which there are the Have's (MD/DO or whatever they decide) and the Have Nots (only a DO). This will create a second class that will leave a lot of great doctors having to defend and fight for equality.

Back in the day, California outlawed Osteopathic physicians and converted the only DO school in California at the time into what is now UC Irvine Medical School. But the DO's in the state were not just left without jobs. They were given the option to take a course (I think it was like a 1 day seminar) and become MD's.

I have a big feeling that congress will step in should this become a pressing issue and mandate a solution (trying not to laugh as i write this part). Good doctors are going to be needed more than ever if healthcare gets passed, as more people will now have coverage. With DO's contributing to the majority of primary care physicians, it will behoove the medical community, congress, and the community to ensure that the security of these doctors and schools which meet minimum requirements are not in jeopardy.

This is my little rant; it is a bit optimistic, but anyone can sit there and speculate about all the bad possibilities and uncertainty that can result from these proposals.

For all that are applying, nothing but the best!!!!
 
I am also a KCUMB alum.

Also, I am a resident in a large "DO-friendly" ACGME primary care residency. However, this year, very few DO's (count on one hand) have been invited to interview. I am concerned that this is an ominous sign for the profession.

I hopefully, KCUMB's efforts will succeed. With the concerns outlined in President Pletz' email, this profession is headed for self-destruction.


Radiate said:
I am a KCUMB alumni. Earlier today an email was sent to alumni (perhaps current students too?) from President Karen Pletz regarding the DO/MD degree, see below:


Recently, an e-mail was circulated regarding KCUMB's consideration of the offering of a dual DO/MD degree. That e-mail stated that a proposal had been presented tot he KCUMB Board to seek this degree and the LCME accreditation which would be required in order to offer a dual degree.

First, to clarify, the University faculty and staff have been exploring ways to ensure that the future of osteopathic medical education remains viable in the face of a number of serious concerns, including:

§ the AAMC mandate to increase class size by 30% by 2015;

§ the continued failure to raise the federal caps on post doctoral training slots in the U.S.;

§ the dramatic increase in accreditation of new osteopathic medical schools and increases in class sizes/and/or additional locations by others;

§ the restriction of VSAS – Visiting Student Application Service – the centralized application service for allopathic clinical clerkship electives, which over 60% of our students currently fill – to allopathic students only, excluding osteopathic students;

§ the increasing pressure on allopathic post doctoral programs, in which 62% of KCUMB graduates seek residency slots and the certain indication that these slots will go first to graduates of LCME accredited schools;

§ the increasing prevalence of Caribbean medical schools contracting with hospital systems across the country for exclusive rights to clinical clerkships;

§ the current AOA/COCA initiatives to accredit foreign osteopathic medical schools without requiring them to assure available residency slots for the period of seven years.

These very real concerns, which were thoroughly discussed in the spring Communicator titled The Changing Landscape of Medicine, have led to the consideration of a major leadership move for osteopathic medical education.

We would remain an osteopathic institution. We are not considering an MD option, as the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine Board of Regents approved during the third week of November. We also are not considering giving applicants a choice of degree.

All student applicants to KCUMB’s College of Osteopathic Medicine would be applying for a dual degree, from a College of Osteopathic Medicine. But having that dual degree offers access by our students and graduates to programs currently or increasingly restricted to graduates of LCME accredited institutions.

These issues have been identified as of major concern by AACOM and other osteopathic institutions, as well as the AOA.

KCUMB, as you know, has worked continuously to build the quality of our programs and to keep a continuous strategic eye to the future.

It has been our practice to endeavor to have control over our future, and not wait for external circumstances to control us.

If you have questions or concerns, or wish to provide input, please let me know.

Once again, we are and always will be an osteopathic college of Medicine (KCUMB-COM) and our mission would not change. We are considering this opportunity in order to advance osteopathic medical education, and the opportunities to our students in the future.

That is our charge.

Best wishes for a wonderful holiday season!

Karen L. Pletz, J.D.
President and Chief Executive Officer
Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences
1750 Independence Ave.
Kansas City, MO 64106-1453
816-283-2301
816-283-2303 (fax)
[email protected]
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allopurinol said:
I am also a KCUMB alum.

Also, I am a resident in a large "DO-friendly" ACGME primary care residency. However, this year, very few DO's (count on one hand) have been invited to interview. I am concerned that this is an ominous sign for the profession.

I hopefully, KCUMB's efforts will succeed. With the concerns outlined in President Pletz' email, this profession is headed for self-destruction.
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Without a doubt the profession is headed for self-destruction thanks mainly to the apathy or malevolence (haven't figured out which one yet) of the governing bodies--AOA/COCA/NBOME. The loudest harbinger was when AOA/COCA decided that a for-profit osteopathic medical school, lead by a soul-less economic degenerate like tien, was a good idea.

Also, the osteopathic GME infrastructure is pathetically insufficient to accommodate class expansions and branch campuses that keep popping up like pox pustules. Right now, we rely so much on the allopathic world to place residents into quality programs, some of which don't even exist in ours; however, when the time comes for their expansions, we're going to be completely SOL.
 
This issue is kind of starting to bug me now. I'm 90% sure it won't happen ... because it seems like nothing ever does with regards to the degree change, other issues, etc, but it's annoying as an applicant making decisions right now concerning attending a DO school, trying to get straight answers out of people, hearing all kinds of wildly differing opinions, and wondering if the next few classes of DOs are going to be the last before the DO, MD wave starts. It's funny how earlier someone mentioned congress weighing in during this whole reform debate. I don't think I've ever advocated government touching medicine, but in this case, I don't even think I'd mind a third party who isn't highly tied to the DO profession to give their two cents. Oh well. I'm still really curious to see what unfolds, happens to alum from KCUMB, if other schools start pouncing on this model, what goes down with the LCME (and if something happens without LCME - if this is possible), etc.
 
I'm thinking about just emailing the school I've been accepted to and asking them what they're going to do to protect my profession. Its starting to bug me too.
 
ncguy2005 said:
I'm thinking about just emailing the school I've been accepted to and asking them what they're going to do to protect my profession. Its starting to bug me too.
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I mean, we shouldn't get worked up about it, because chances are ... everything will settle down and work out. However, it's just kind of frustrating to be in the heat of making a tough decision right now with the potential for these newer programs on the horizon. Especially at a school many of us have applied to and been accepted at in the current DO program. It's also one of those irritating things that affects us, but is frankly, completely out of our control. It's tough to complain because we should understand that we are applying to DO programs that will allow us to become fully licensed physicians, and really expect nothing more than that, but it's still unnerving to say the least.
 
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The LCME wants to expand enrollment in LCME schools by 30 percent by 2015. A very daunting task to establish new schools and expand class sizes. So, an easy way to meet their goal and succeed is to convert the solid DO schools to MD schools (or dual). Voila! LCME enrollment goal achieved!
As it stands, the AOA/COCA can't touch KCUMB and others who follow suit. They shot themselves in the foot by accrediting RVU by claiming nothing in the accreditation standards forbid a for-profit school. Well, nothing forbids a dual degree either. Even if the COCA pulls KCUMB, they'd still be LCME accredited...basically -1 for the AOA.
It's pretty obvious the AOA is doing this to themselves. After decades of failed marketing of the DO, failure to listen to constituents, and inability to define a meaningful difference between a DO and MD these days, it was only inevitable for this to happen (I'm willing to bet it does-look at how successful TCOM was at fending off the AOA and gaining favor with the LCME).
 
allopurinol said:
I am also a KCUMB alum.

Also, I am a resident in a large "DO-friendly" ACGME primary care residency. However, this year, very few DO's (count on one hand) have been invited to interview. I am concerned that this is an ominous sign for the profession.

I hopefully, KCUMB's efforts will succeed. With the concerns outlined in President Pletz' email, this profession is headed for self-destruction.
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Why not just combine the AOA/LCME accreditation process into one new entity for all medical degree awarding schools? The new entity could have representation from both COCA and LCME.

The new combined entity would accredit both DO and MD programs. It wouldn't matter which medical degree an institution was offering, every institution would go through the same accreditation process. That would basically solve everything.
 
drusso said:
Why not just combine the AOA/LCME accreditation process into one new entity for all medical degree awarding schools? The new entity could have representation from both COCA and LCME.

The new combined entity would accredit both DO and MD programs. It wouldn't matter which medical degree an institution was offering, every institution would go through the same accreditation process. That would basically solve everything.
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One governing body muscling out the other would be the first step.
 
hooperg said:
Without a doubt the profession is headed for self-destruction thanks mainly to the apathy or malevolence (haven't figured out which one yet) of the governing bodies--AOA/COCA/NBOME. The loudest harbinger was when AOA/COCA decided that a for-profit osteopathic medical school, lead by a soul-less economic degenerate like tien, was a good idea.

Also, the osteopathic GME infrastructure is pathetically insufficient to accommodate class expansions and branch campuses that keep popping up like pox pustules. Right now, we rely so much on the allopathic world to place residents into quality programs, some of which don't even exist in ours; however, when the time comes for their expansions, we're going to be completely SOL.
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Dont forget about incompetence! You're right otherwise. Im proud to be a DO student but the AOA crapped all over osteopathic medicine when they allowed RVU to come into existence. KCUMB/DMU/TCOM are just doing whats best for their future students.
 
This is a great thing....Forget the degree change but I think these schools should of been LCME accredited already.

To improve our profession you should do the following:
1. Become LCME accredited; We wouldn't have to worry about electives allowing only LCME accredited schools to rotate; VSAS would make it so much easier.
2. Take the USMLE; no COMLEX....add an addition OMM exam. After all it is the UNITED STATES Medical Licensing Exam.

**Degree change is up to you.. I was always a proponent of the MD,DO degree but I actually like the DO, MD degree.
 
WDeagle said:
Dont forget about incompetence! You're right otherwise. Im proud to be a DO student but the AOA crapped all over osteopathic medicine when they allowed RVU to come into existence. KCUMB/DMU/TCOM are just doing whats best for their future students.
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:thumbup:
 
my opinion is that all DO school should become LCME accredited and give out MD degrees. Those that aren't qualified (like RVU) closes its doors.
 
Handy388 said:
my opinion is that all DO school should become LCME accredited and give out MD degrees. Those that aren't qualified (like RVU) closes its doors.
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This is going to start a war but I am interested in seeing what comes of it. I am missing why RVU sucks so much besides the for-profit status. I attended NYCOM for a while and audited classes at a few other DO schools (PCOM UNECOM and Touro in NY), and find RVU to be quite a bit more organized than NYCOM (perhaps this is not hard to do but still) and the quality of professors is certainly on par. . . Also their admissions standards are higher than several established schools with much longer histories. I am interested in seeing where this goes because those are the things I am used to judging a school by.

By all means go nuts!
 
Bones DO said:
This is going to start a war but I am interested in seeing what comes of it. I am missing why RVU sucks so much besides the for-profit status. I attended NYCOM for a while and audited classes at a few other DO schools (PCOM UNECOM and Touro in NY), and find RVU to be quite a bit more organized than NYCOM (perhaps this is not hard to do but still) and the quality of professors is certainly on par. . . Also their admissions standards are higher than several established schools with much longer histories. I am interested in seeing where this goes because those are the things I am used to judging a school by.

By all means go nuts!
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In my understanding you failed out of another DO school and have never been exposed to the clinicals. We are concerned about the quality of clinical rotation at RVU.

and plus, I am sure DeVry university have decent instruction on their MBA program as well, but you are then faced with employers who don't like the name "DeVry".

How many PDs do you think are dying to recruit a RVU grad into their program?
 
Handy388 said:
In my understanding you failed out of another DO school and have never been exposed to the clinicals. We are concerned about the quality of clinical rotation at RVU.

and plus, I am sure DeVry university have decent instruction on their MBA program as well, but you are then faced with employers who don't like the name "DeVry".

How many PDs do you think are dying to recruit a RVU grad into their program?
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RVU can't become LCME, from my understanding, they have a strict no for profit schools rule.
 
Sweet time for the AOA pres blog not to load .... ugh.
 
Handy388 said:
my opinion is that all DO school should become LCME accredited and give out MD degrees. Those that aren't qualified (like RVU) closes its doors.
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What's wrong with LCME cred + AOA cred and giving out DO, MD ??? Something should indicate the extra 200+ hours of OMM training.
 
JaggerPlate said:
What's wrong with LCME cred + AOA cred and giving out DO, MD ??? Something should indicate the extra 200+ hours of OMM training.
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if a school wants to have the extra DO designation, then knock themselves out.
 
The board ofv KCUMB voted to terminate the services of Karen L. Pletz
 
Handy388 said:
if a school wants to have the extra DO designation, then knock themselves out.
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Coolio. I still don't think any of this is going to happen though. Will the AOA president's blog open for anyone/would they want to post his response??? I can't get it to load up.
 
Handy388 said:
In my understanding you failed out of another DO school and have never been exposed to the clinicals. We are concerned about the quality of clinical rotation at RVU.

and plus, I am sure DeVry university have decent instruction on their MBA program as well, but you are then faced with employers who don't like the name "DeVry".

How many PDs do you think are dying to recruit a RVU grad into their program?
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It was my understanding that board scores and clinical grades had more to do with what residency you land than what institution you hail from. I certainly think RVU grads will at least be ahead of FMG . . .right? I hope? I don't know RVU may be my only option currently but even if I get into the Touro in NY or UNE I have a hard time turning it down, it's the only school that had so many of their class come through the interview to talk about how much they love it there... do you think those were paid actors?? I'm getting scared now ...

More related to this thread specifically, after all DO's have done in the last century to gain equal footing with allopaths, it would be a shame to throw it all away. If anything, osteopathic schools should be working to regain the distinctness (while maintaining the level playing ground) that they started with. I think AT Still would weep like a baby if he read this thread. As a patient I notice a difference between the DO that graduated 30 years ago and one that is a resident today and it's kind of sad. :(:thumbdown:
 
Whoops. Sorry, I got two people confused. So essentially the board fired the president because she disagreed with the dual program?
 
outsider said:
The board ofv KCUMB voted to terminate the services of Karen L. Pletz
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Yep! Thats the end of MD/DO or LCME accreditation for DO schools. The board gave no reasoning for the firing but the timing makes you wonder. Looks like a rejection of the LCME on part of the DO world. Either way DO's will be DO's and MD's will be MD's. KCUMB will still be a great school. This is the official end of this thread.
 
I can confirm that. I'm a current KCUMB student. The email went out about 30 minutes ago.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Whoops. Sorry, I got two people confused. So essentially the board fired the president because she disagreed with the dual program?
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I think its the other way around. I think the pres was the one who was all about the dual program but the board disagreed. Its not going to happen at a school with a 100 years of hardcore DO alumni. Maybe a newer school could pull it off.
 
So someone catch me up to speed here ... she was fired bc she opposed the deal and the board wanted, or because she proposed the deal and the board didn't want it, or because the LCME thing fell through and someone's head had to roll??? Something else?
 
WDeagle said:
I think its the other way around. I think the pres was the one who was all about the dual program but the board disagreed. Its not going to happen at a school with a 100 years of hardcore DO alumni. Maybe a newer school could pull it off.
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Yeah, that was a point I was asking about yesterday ... the schools with the greatest chances (in my pre-med opinion) of getting LCME cred would be the oldest, most established, however, these are the ones that seem to be the most dedicated to traditional osteopathic medicine ... so catch 22??
 
We don't know anything for sure yet, but she's the one who wrote the letter on the previous page that started all this. So, I think its safe to say she wasn't opposed to this dual degree thing or whatever it is. All we know is that the board "terminated" her for reasons that they are not discussing at this time.

I feel a little sheepish, I had no idea any of this was going on. I guess I really locked myself in a box for finals.
 
JaggerPlate said:
So someone catch me up to speed here ... she was fired bc she opposed the deal and the board wanted, or because she proposed the deal and the board didn't want it, or because the LCME thing fell through and someone's head had to roll??? Something else?
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She was the one pushing for it, I think you can see two of her emails somewhere in the thread where she talked about researching the idea.

I do believe a degree change is coming, but I think it will come from the AOA. The president seems well aware of the cry out from the DO community to do something about the degree.

I understand why DO's would prefer the MD-O/DO,MD/OMD change. It signifies their training in medicine, which is what the majority of their education is about anyway.

The president said if this change is truly desired, those who are involved in the osteopathic profession should work with the AOA at their meeting in July. If I were in school already, I would at least give it a try. I hope those of you who are already deep into the profession will consider giving this a shot.

Just a last bit of information: I am only a pre-med and I'm only making observations. Please don't chew me out if there is any ignorance in this message.
 
Bones DO said:
It was my understanding that board scores and clinical grades had more to do with what residency you land than what institution you hail from. I certainly think RVU grads will at least be ahead of FMG . . .right? I hope?
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well, I am not so sure about that. RVU is basically the DO stigma PLUS carribean stigma all in one place, possibly minus the greenbook rotations carribean people get.

It might end up match as well as the non-big four school, you know, like St. James or something.
 
Just to add to this... KCUMB has already updated their website... not even a trace of the former president.
 
Handy388 said:
well, I am not so sure about that. RVU is basically the DO stigma PLUS carribean stigma all in one place, possibly minus the greenbook rotations carribean people get.

It might end up match as well as the non-big four school, you know, like St. James or something.
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Eh, that's all pretty much conjecture (with regards to the match). I'd be willing to bet they match far better than Carib schools. I'm not going to sit here and defend RVU. I've never supported their for-profit status. However, I don't bash it because it's unfair to the students.

However, I'm almost positive that LCME doesn't back for-profit schools, but it looks like the KCUMB thing blew up, so, like ncguy said, any degree change is going to have to come through (as AOA pres blog says) an organization like a state DO board + people writing the petition + AOA delegates passing it. The blog said they have a meeting coming up in July. Maybe a petition will get to them then. Who knows. Personally, I don't think we will see a degree change ANYTIME soon.
 
ncguy2005 said:
Just to add to this... KCUMB has already updated their website... not even a trace of the former president.
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Wow. This is nuts and will scare the crap out of any other school president's that want to pull this same move.
 
Is anyone else suprised by this? I mean around here Pletz is pretty highly respected. I'm not sure, but I think we've built an entirely new campus (as in all new buildings, moved a block or two) since she got here. Everyone here was always telling us how great she is and how she transformed the school. I'm talking about professors who have been here for 25 years telling us that. It just seems so sudden.
 
Luke4202 said:
Is anyone else suprised by this? I mean around here Pletz is pretty highly respected. I'm not sure, but I think we've built an entirely new campus (as in all new buildings, moved a block or two) since she got here. Everyone here was always telling us how great she is and how she transformed the school. I'm talking about professors who have been here for 25 years telling us that. It just seems so sudden.
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I don't even go to KCUMB and I think it's bananas. I think it said online she's been president there for like 14 years.

http://people.forbes.com/profile/karen-l-pletz/46868
 
Wow, the board hit her with the b& hammer pretty hard. That's a little disconcerting as this is a school I'm really interested in, that suddenly has a change from seemingly solid leadership.
 
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