Keeping Maiden Name

[Freya]

Jamie, I love your excuse --becoming a doctor gives an excuse to keep my birth name.
That's funny.

It seems like significant number of women in SDN decide to keep their birth name.
I would like to get to the bottom of this.
Why are we keeping our birth name?
Are we so attached to our birth family more so than our new family?
Is it the manifestation of feminist in us?
Or are we preparing for the worst?


Why are we keeping our birth name?
Because that's simply what I've been called these past 23 years. It's a symbol of connection with my family and I have as much right as my husband to be proud of them. It's my friggin' name!!

Are we so attached to our birth family more so than our new family?
They are not my 'new family'. They're his family. I hope to get along just fine with his mother, but no amount of time spent together will make me become 'her' daughter. I already have a family, and you can never have more than one. They're called in-laws for a reason.

Is it the manifestation of feminist in us?
It has nothing to do with feminism, nme-changing imho is a medieval custom bound to disappear in a few decades. Our granddaughters will have a good laugh at this, ladies!

Or are we preparing for the worst?
If that were true, why are we bothering getting maried?

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[ice_23]

Don't worry about this one little bit! Many women, especially female physicians, keep their last names - you're not alone at all. There's the paperwork nightmare with boards and licensing, the issue of professional recognition as you may already have degrees and publications under your name, plus your name conveys ties to cultural background and family of origin, not to mention simple personal pride and self-esteem. Call it feminism, but in my opinion, women shouldn't do things that men aren't willing to, and vice versa - not at work, not in bed, not when it comes to childrearing and not when it comes to changing names. I personally like it when both people change their names to something new (or the hyphenated deal). You're both creating a new family together, so it seems fitting that both people would change their names. Just a thought. It does involve the paperwork nightmare though. As for kids, they will be fine. Obviously it would be simpler if you both change your names, but if you keep your own names, just decide what name they will have, and stick with it. Just because they may have different last names than one of you, does not make them any less yours...just like having a different last name than your spouse does not make you any less married! Ignore the unsolicited comments (as it's no one's business anyway, not even your friends or family), and promptly correct people who assume wrongly. They will be ignorant until you educate them. Nobody even blinks if you live in an urban/progressive area, but even in less progressive places, it's widely accepted in the medical community. It just becomes known that Dr. Jen Lee, internist, is married to Mr. Jose Cruz, yoga instructor, and people just accept it. Your bank account, bills, other mail will say Jen Lee and Jose Cruz. Simple. Yes you will still occasionally get ignorant telemarketers saying Dr. and Mrs. Lee, Mr. and Mrs Cruz, etc. and your moms and/or grandmas may make comments. But who cares, if you feel strongly about it, don't sell yourself short.

This post is not meant to inflame in any way, but do any of you wish that, if we had some procedure which allowed men to have children, that you would wish for your husband to have children as well? That is, is it inherently chauvanistic that men don't childbear? Granted it's a part of nature, but it's also a part of nature to die from certain illnesses, and it's part of human advancement to intervene in that process.

Additionally, using this particular post that is being quoted, most men, even with that sort of technology, wouldn't be willing to childbear. Would that be, then, something that women then shouldn't have to do?

Just my two cents. This is simply a thought experiment, NOT meant to flame or provoke anyone. I just think the people responding to this thread might have actually thought about a scenario like this (which had never occurred to me until reading this post) and the potential ramifications.

-Ice

 

[GeneGoddess]

This post is not meant to inflame in any way, but do any of you wish that, if we had some procedure which allowed men to have children, that you would wish for your husband to have children as well? That is, is it inherently chauvanistic that men don't childbear? Granted it's a part of nature, but it's also a part of nature to die from certain illnesses, and it's part of human advancement to intervene in that process.
-Ice

Didn't you read the article in the early 1980's in OMNI (or watch the movie based on it - "Junior"?)

 

[cytoborg]

This post is not meant to inflame in any way, but do any of you wish that, if we had some procedure which allowed men to have children, that you would wish for your husband to have children as well? That is, is it inherently chauvanistic that men don't childbear? Granted it's a part of nature, but it's also a part of nature to die from certain illnesses, and it's part of human advancement to intervene in that process.

Additionally, using this particular post that is being quoted, most men, even with that sort of technology, wouldn't be willing to childbear. Would that be, then, something that women then shouldn't have to do?

Just my two cents. This is simply a thought experiment, NOT meant to flame or provoke anyone. I just think the people responding to this thread might have actually thought about a scenario like this (which had never occurred to me until reading this post) and the potential ramifications.

-Ice

Interesting logic ice. I happen to agree with it. However, most enlightened people probably agree that childbearing isn't "something that women should have to do" anyhow.

 

[MoosePilot]

Jamie, I love your excuse --becoming a doctor gives an excuse to keep my birth name.
That's funny.

It seems like significant number of women in SDN decide to keep their birth name.
I would like to get to the bottom of this.
Why are we keeping our birth name?
Are we so attached to our birth family more so than our new family?
Is it the manifestation of feminist in us?
Or are we preparing for the worst?


Why are we keeping our birth name?
Because that's simply what I've been called these past 23 years. It's a symbol of connection with my family and I have as much right as my husband to be proud of them. It's my friggin' name!!

Are we so attached to our birth family more so than our new family?
They are not my 'new family'. They're his family. I hope to get along just fine with his mother, but no amount of time spent together will make me become 'her' daughter. I already have a family, and you can never have more than one. They're called in-laws for a reason.

Is it the manifestation of feminist in us?
It has nothing to do with feminism, nme-changing imho is a medieval custom bound to disappear in a few decades. Our granddaughters will have a good laugh at this, ladies!

Or are we preparing for the worst?
If that were true, why are we bothering getting maried?

I don't agree with this statement: "They are not my 'new family'. They're his family.". Well, what about the family you're creating? How did your family (the one you were born into and clearly overwhelmingly identify with) get created?

In a way, I see clinging to your birth family as more demeaning than moving forward into your adult, married family (you and your husband). I thought that when someone talked about being called by her "mother-in-law's name" (Mrs. Hislastname). Why is it her name? Because she's an adult and took it.

I can understand why women wouldn't want to take their husband's last name. Because it's assymetrical, it can be seen as a power imbalance. She loses something she's always had, he keeps what he's always had, and she's now "labeled" almost like valuable property being engraved. Sure, I don't agree, but I can understand it.

Any solution, though, needs to recognize that growing into an adult and moving away from primary connection with your parents as family and towards your mate and potential children as family is a natural process. It's important that your new family be recognized. However that happens, if you use symbolism to show you're still more attached to your birth family (while somehow trying to be *more* independent that way) it's a negative thing. Perhaps if people are so sensitive to complete power equity and don't recognize that equity can be maintained through a balance of individual inequities then a completely symmetrical solution needs to be created. Perhaps creating a new surname together will become a marriage custom, like crafting vows.

All I know is that I'm gonna share last names with my wife and children. It's clear enough to me that humans don't own humans not to worry how that happens. It's like the Fantastic Four wearing the same costumes. It's too show they're a team, not to indicate that Mr. Fantastic owns the other team members.

 

[Toofscum]

I am married and I kept my own name. I had always grown up knowing I would do this, even though I come from a very conservative family, who have criticized me for doing this. My in-laws I don't think really understand that I kept my own name, b/c I keep getting mail from them addressed to me with my husband's last name.

To me, it was a no-brainer. I think it's a nice thing when both parties change their name to a hyphenated version, so they're both Jones-Smith or whatever. But my hubby wanted to keep his name, so we just both have our own names. Our kids can have his last name.

I don't think it's necessary for everyone to have the same last name to be considered a "team." I think that's antiquated thinking. I think you can show that you're a team in other ways, such as doing lots of things together and emotional support, etc.

 

[MoosePilot]

I am married and I kept my own name. I had always grown up knowing I would do this, even though I come from a very conservative family, who have criticized me for doing this. My in-laws I don't think really understand that I kept my own name, b/c I keep getting mail from them addressed to me with my husband's last name.

To me, it was a no-brainer. I think it's a nice thing when both parties change their name to a hyphenated version, so they're both Jones-Smith or whatever. But my hubby wanted to keep his name, so we just both have our own names. Our kids can have his last name.

I don't think it's necessary for everyone to have the same last name to be considered a "team." I think that's antiquated thinking. I think you can show that you're a team in other ways, such as doing lots of things together and emotional support, etc.

You can show you're a team in a lot of ways, but there's always going to be oen way you didn't. One place you obviously put yourself before your team. If that's ok with you, that's fine. I know what kind of work family takes and a name is very, very minor.

 

[GeneGoddess]

You can show you're a team in a lot of ways, but there's always going to be oen way you didn't. One place you obviously put yourself before your team. If that's ok with you, that's fine. I know what kind of work family takes and a name is very, very minor.

Along those lines of thinking, "teamwork" wasn't a goal of her spouse either, since he didn't change his name.

 

[ice_23]

Didn't you read the article in the early 1980's in OMNI (or watch the movie based on it - "Junior"?)

No i haven't; what was it about?

-Ice

 

[GeneGoddess]

It was a GREAT article (I read it when I was about 10yr) and then a movie was made loosely based on it. Basically, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a scientist and his pal Danny Devito is an ObGyn (yeah, just let THAT image sink in). They come up with a formula that would allow men to carry a fetus (ex-utero, obviously). They can't get FDA approval (you can see where this is going), and so Arnie decides to play "daddy". Wackiness ensues. Actually, it's pretty funny (Emma Thompson plays another geeky scientist and has some great physical comedy and Frank Langella is a nasty Dean). Not Oscar caliber, but good for a snicker or two. It's along the same lines as Twins (no violence).

 

[MoosePilot]

Along those lines of thinking, "teamwork" wasn't a goal of her spouse either, since he didn't change his name.

Did she ask him to? If the point is to have the same name, does it make more sense to have the male change his (large amount of cultural inertia), the woman change hers (default), or make up a new name (novel, surprising, unknown how it would go).

If you think of the family as more important than the self, why would you have a man change his name?

 

[ramonaquimby]

so glad i bumped into this thread. i don't want to ramble on-and-on, so i'll try to keep it short with two anecdotes...

i wanted to be sure that i could be called Dr. Birthname while in residency and beyond. so you know waht i did before we applied for our marriage certificate? i called up 3 random residency programs and asked them if i could be called Dr. Birthname on the wards/licensure if i did...

• Firstname Birthname-Hisname, MD
• Firstname Birthname Hisname, MD
• Firstname Birthname, MD

only the first and the last got me the answer i wanted at all three programs, so i went with the first. also, the first gave me the most flexibility in case i became brainwashed in the future - kidding! (Firstname Birthname and Firstname Hisname are both legal if one's name is hyphenated), so i went with that one. i NEVER use it, though (see below for why), unless we're being invited to a wedding. whatever.


secondly, i'm now annoyed because had i known, i would have gone with Firstname Hisname-Birthname or even Firstname Birthnamehisname (no space or dash) because this part of the country is now insisting on pretending there's no dash and just calling me Mrs. Hisname / Dr. Hisname even though my last name is 'officially' freakin' hypenated: Birthname-Hisname. WTF?! this REALLY pisses me off. i pretend i don't know who they're talking to whne i hear this. does this happen to anyone else or is just a local thing?!

 

[GeneGoddess]

Did she ask him to? If the point is to have the same name, does it make more sense to have the male change his (large amount of cultural inertia), the woman change hers (default), or make up a new name (novel, surprising, unknown how it would go).

If you think of the family as more important than the self, why would you have a man change his name?

So because it is EASIER for a woman to change her name and difficult for a man (with whispers of "whipped" in the background), it's her fault for not doing it? Why should anyone be FORCED to change their name? If having the same name is important to the couple, maybe THEY should discuss it and decide whose name to go with (his, hers, or a new one) and society be damned.

 

[GeneGoddess]

secondly, i'm now annoyed because had i known, i would have gone with Firstname Hisname-Birthname or even Firstname Birthnamehisname (no space or dash) because this part of the country is now insisting on pretending there's no dash and just calling me Mrs. Hisname / Dr. Hisname even though my last name is 'officially' freakin' hypenated: Birthname-Hisname. WTF?! this REALLY pisses me off. i pretend i don't know who they're talking to whne i hear this. does this happen to anyone else or is just a local thing?!

It's just what people assume. I'm legally and professionally Dr. Birthname and my spouse is legally Dr. HisBirthname. For example, let's just say I'm Gene Goddess and he is Science Stud. We both kept our birth names legally and professionally (I don't want to be published under several names...and neither does he). But socially, we are Dr. and Dr. Stud-Goddess. And people still call me Mrs. Gene Stud and him Mr. Science Goddess. After we got married, every Xmas card (except one) was to Mr. and Mrs. Science Stud. The one exception was my friend who knew we'd done something "different" but couldn't remember what and addressed the card to Mr. and Mrs. Science Goddess. I kept that envelope!

Many people assume that when a woman keeps her name professionally, she prefers to go by her married name socially. That is increasingly NOT true. But, everyone has different priorities. It wasn't a priority for us to have the same last name. We know we're married. And neither of us care if someone doesn't know we are.

 

[Toofscum]

For the recond, I did ask my husband if he would be willing to change his name to my name. He said no. So why should I change my name to his name? Makes no sense to me. I still don't agree with you, Moose, that the woman keeping her name has anything whatsoever to do with the teamwork aspect of a family. I think it's a very minor point with no bearing on teamwork whatsoever. When I think of the ways my husband and I show that we're a team, last name really never crosses my mind. Instead, I think about things like: do we present a united front on major issues? Do we support each other unconditionally? Are we there for each other during good and bad times? Do we support each others' careers? Our kids can have his name, though I do feel that in general, the children should take the mother's last name b/c she did all the work in carrying the child and giving birth to them! After having nine pounds pass through an opening the size of a half-dollar, I think the least society could do would be to have the children's names follow a matrilineal origin!

 

[MoosePilot]

For the recond, I did ask my husband if he would be willing to change his name to my name. He said no. So why should I change my name to his name? Makes no sense to me. I still don't agree with you, Moose, that the woman keeping her name has anything whatsoever to do with the teamwork aspect of a family. I think it's a very minor point with no bearing on teamwork whatsoever. When I think of the ways my husband and I show that we're a team, last name really never crosses my mind. Instead, I think about things like: do we present a united front on major issues? Do we support each other unconditionally? Are we there for each other during good and bad times? Do we support each others' careers? Our kids can have his name, though I do feel that in general, the children should take the mother's last name b/c she did all the work in carrying the child and giving birth to them! After having nine pounds pass through an opening the size of a half-dollar, I think the least society could do would be to have the children's names follow a matrilineal origin!

Why do teams have the same name and the same uniform? They all work hard together to support each other, don't they? Isn't that enough to show they're a team?

I'm not saying a uniform is necessary, but I am saying that there's a clear reason why changing your name to a common last name is good. I haven't heard anything but selfish reasons why not to. It's my opinion and you're more than welcome to yours, I just completely don't understand it.

 

[Toofscum]

So, Moose, if we assume your reasoning is true, then why shouldn't my husband be the one to change his name? Why must I be the one to do it because I'm the woman? Why should women always be the ones to sacrifice things in a marriage? I don't really care if others think it's "selfish" to keep my maiden name; I think that all the support I've given my husband through residency and beyond more than makes up for any "selfishness" I've displayed through wanting to keep my name. I also think the name being passed through matrilineal origin is the way to go.

You seem very conservative in your thinking. Must the woman be the stay at home mother, too, in order to show that she's a good team player, while the man goes out and is the breadwinner?

 

[MoosePilot]

So, Moose, if we assume your reasoning is true, then why shouldn't my husband be the one to change his name? Why must I be the one to do it because I'm the woman? Why should women always be the ones to sacrifice things in a marriage? I don't really care if others think it's "selfish" to keep my maiden name; I think that all the support I've given my husband through residency and beyond more than makes up for any "selfishness" I've displayed through wanting to keep my name. I also think the name being passed through matrilineal origin is the way to go.

You seem very conservative in your thinking. Must the woman be the stay at home mother, too, in order to show that she's a good team player, while the man goes out and is the breadwinner?

Your husband shouldn't change his name, because there's real societal consequences to that. Women might not understand the extent to which this would emasculate him. He would lose a large amount of credibility among all but the most liberal metrosexual types that hear about it.

All the support you've given him, huh? It sounds like you expect that support to pay for everything forever. Name change, his financial support of you in the future, etc. ad nauseum. Marriage isn't a transaction. You support him because you're his wife. He supports you because he's your husband. The name thing isn't bought and paid for like it's some item you just had to have...

Well, that's a different subject. Yes, I'm traditional, but no, women don't have to stay at home. A couple should divide work roles however it fits their needs and talents. There is much less stigma attached to working in the home, so I don't see this as emasculating men to nearly the same degree.

 

[Katee80]

Your husband shouldn't change his name, because there's real societal consequences to that. Women might not understand the extent to which this would emasculate him. He would lose a large amount of credibility among all but the most liberal metrosexual types that hear about it.

All the support you've given him, huh? It sounds like you expect that support to pay for everything forever. Name change, his financial support of you in the future, etc. ad nauseum. Marriage isn't a transaction. You support him because you're his wife. He supports you because he's your husband. The name thing isn't bought and paid for like it's some item you just had to have...

Well, that's a different subject. Yes, I'm traditional, but no, women don't have to stay at home. A couple should divide work roles however it fits their needs and talents. There is much less stigma attached to working in the home, so I don't see this as emasculating men to nearly the same degree.

Will you marry me?

Katee

 

[MoosePilot]

Will you marry me?

Katee

Aaaaaahhhhhh....

Well, that's my best offer all day, but I've got a young lady that would be really upset if I took you up on it

 

[myfavred]

Your husband shouldn't change his name, because there's real societal consequences to that. Women might not understand the extent to which this would emasculate him. He would lose a large amount of credibility among all but the most liberal metrosexual types that hear about it.

All the support you've given him, huh? It sounds like you expect that support to pay for everything forever. Name change, his financial support of you in the future, etc. ad nauseum. Marriage isn't a transaction. You support him because you're his wife. He supports you because he's your husband. The name thing isn't bought and paid for like it's some item you just had to have...

Well, that's a different subject. Yes, I'm traditional, but no, women don't have to stay at home. A couple should divide work roles however it fits their needs and talents. There is much less stigma attached to working in the home, so I don't see this as emasculating men to nearly the same degree.

Actually Moose I know a Physician here who hyphenated his last name. After they got married his wife hyphenated her name and he wanted to have the same last name as hers so he hyphenated his name as well. He actually did it in the early 70's. I thought it was the sweetest thing a man could do

On a seperate note why is it such a problem if woman keeps her last name or change it. It should be her choice and not looked upon as she breaking the tradition. It is such a hassle to change your name.

 

[MoosePilot]

Actually Moose I know a Physician here who hyphenated his last name. After they got married his wife hyphenated her name and he wanted to have the same last name as hers so he hyphenated his name as well. He actually did it in the early 70's. I thought it was the sweetest thing a man could do

On a seperate note why is it such a problem if woman keeps her last name or change it. It should be her choice and not looked upon as she breaking the tradition. It is such a hassle to change your name.

I've already posted my thoughts on it. It's not that big a hassle and I think the benefits outweigh the problems with changing it. The hassle takes maybe 6 months to resolve while the benefit might last for 50 years if you get married at 25 and live to 75? Hmmmm.... let me balance that...

 

[GeneGoddess]

It's not that big a hassle and I think the benefits outweigh the problems with changing it. The hassle takes maybe 6 months to resolve while the benefit might last for 50 years if you get married at 25 and live to 75? Hmmmm.... let me balance that...

Coming from someone who obviously has never done it. It took my sister over a year to change her name. She wants to change it back (she felt pressured to do it by my BIL's family, my BIL didn't care one way or the other), but won't because it was such a HUGE hassle. It takes lots of time and lots of money.

 

[OzDDS]

The truth is that I am more attached to my family than my husband. It may change in the future but I think it will be better for me to pursue my career with my birth name.
My parents raised us to be independent and have our own identity. I feel that society and custom sometimes ask too much from women.

More attatched to your family than your husband? Do you mean more attatched to you family "name" than your husbands "name".. or did I read that right the first time? I understand you do love your family(mom and pop). I don't think that getting married means you lose your relationship with your parents. But when you get married you are sort of breaking away and starting a new family. Isn't that the whole idea of marriage in the first place? also I don't think that you really "loose your personal identity" when you get married either. If you really do care more about your "family" (parent's, siblings) than your "husband"... and you really want to be independant and career focused. Then how does getting married and having kids really compliment what your true focus is in life? I don't mean to offend.. just curious.

 

[CoffeeMug]

For the recond, I did ask my husband if he would be willing to change his name to my name. He said no. So why should I change my name to his name? Makes no sense to me.

Because men and women aren't equal?

 

[rpkall]

ahahah! I love these threads. I'm glad we have one name in my family. None of this hyphen stuff.

 

[mshheaddoc]

you're lucky then.

I'm going to have this talk soon I'm sure. I'm not sure how that will pan out. I'm still up in the area. I feel that being Dr. Mushy is something i've dreamed about as a kid and also carrying on my family name ... but we're both traditional and I know he would prefer me taking his name. *sigh*

 

[SaraL124]

Coming from someone who obviously has never done it. It took my sister over a year to change her name. She wants to change it back (she felt pressured to do it by my BIL's family, my BIL didn't care one way or the other), but won't because it was such a HUGE hassle. It takes lots of time and lots of money.

I got married 2 months ago. I hemmed and hawed for a while about changing my name and in the end I changed it.

It was NOT a hassle. It cost NO MONEY. It did NOT take a lot of time.

I went to the Social Security office. I waited for about 10 minutes. I showed the lady the marriage license and my driver's license. She asked me what I wanted on the new card. I chose to have:

Firstname Middlename Maidenname Marriedname.

I do not feel that I sacrificed any part of my self to change my name. I felt it would be ridiculous to ask my husband to change his name to my name. He did not pressure me nor did any of his family. The only logical answer would be if we both hyphenated but both of our last names together would be SO long. I like my birth middle name so I kept it for official records but professionally I will be Firstname Maidenname Marriedname. I am starting a PhD program this year so I will have my married name on all my school records and diplomas. Also it's easier for me to be found on medsearches or pubmed because my maiden name is a very common one while my married name is virtually nonexistent except for my husband's family. ( in fact my birth name was so common that every doctor, dentist, hair dresser, etc. always had at least 2-3 clients/patients with the same exact name and I had to be identified by phone number).

I like that together we will be known as The K--s and eventually we will be The Doctors K--- or Dr. and Dr. K--. I would however feel offended if someone addressed my husband as Dr. and me as Mrs.

And as for the person who says the only way to define your team is to have the same name I feel that's ridiculous. My husband's nuclear family has three last names between the six of them. His mom divorced and remarried and went back to her maiden name, her second husband and her stepdaughters have a different last name and my husband and his brother have their father's last name. The only people who make the mistake of messing up the last names are telemarketers and they are not that important to get all fussed over anyway.

 

[MoosePilot]

Coming from someone who obviously has never done it. It took my sister over a year to change her name. She wants to change it back (she felt pressured to do it by my BIL's family, my BIL didn't care one way or the other), but won't because it was such a HUGE hassle. It takes lots of time and lots of money.

Obviously never done it... but I have shared my name with someone else. I also shared all my financial accounts and spent all my time with my wife, so I know it doesn't inevitably take a lot of money or a lot of time.

 

[MollyMalone]

This is just my opinion... but I really don't see what the big deal is. If two people who want to be married can't resolve this issue in an amicable way that satisfies both parties, it does not bode well for the future of the marriage and should be looked at as a great big giant red flashing warning sign reading "DANGER!! Do not proceed to the wedding!" And if both parties are satisfied, everyone else can just go hang.

On a side note: I understand a lot of your arguments for tradition and teamwork, Moose, and I of course think that you have every right to keep your name and have your wife take your name if that's what you want to do, but I really don't buy the "emasculation" line of reasoning. To me, the "manhood" that is threatened by what someone else thinks of it isn't terribly "manly" to begin with. But then again, what do I know, I'm only a woman.

 

[MoosePilot]

This is just my opinion... but I really don't see what the big deal is. If two people who want to be married can't resolve this issue in an amicable way that satisfies both parties, it does not bode well for the future of the marriage and should be looked at as a great big giant red flashing warning sign reading "DANGER!! Do not proceed to the wedding!" And if both parties are satisfied, everyone else can just go hang.

On a side note: I understand a lot of your arguments for tradition and teamwork, Moose, and I of course think that you have every right to keep your name and have your wife take your name if that's what you want to do, but I really don't buy the "emasculation" line of reasoning. To me, the "manhood" that is threatened by what someone else thinks of it isn't terribly "manly" to begin with. But then again, what do I know, I'm only a woman.

You wouldn't know, because you've never dealt with that phenomenon.

You can try to discard all the societal standards you want... but how many of you women run around without bras all the time? If you want to function within society you have to be aware of its demands and know which ones you want to just say "hell no" to and which ones you'll humor.

 

[SaraL124]

Most women wear bras because it's more comfortable that way, not because they feel pressure to conform to societal norms. I believe this is a poor analogy to the pressure women may feel to change their name even if it is not something they feel completely comfortable with.


I agree with Moose though about the masculinity thing. I feel that because it is a "tradition" for women to change their name it is easier socially when they do so. I knew a man who changed his name to his wife's last name and everyone whispered behind his back that he was wimpy or a pansy for doing so. His family was also not very happy about it because he had only sisters and so their last name dies with him. I think it makes the most sense if both parties want the same last name and the wife feels uncomfortable with changing all together, to just have both husband and wife hyphenate the names. I feel there are less behind the back comments about men who do this than about men who change their last name to their wife's. But if you are secure on your masculinity then it really shouldn't matter what you do. These ar ejust my opinions.

 

[MoosePilot]

Most women wear bras because it's more comfortable that way, not because they feel pressure to conform to societal norms. I believe this is a poor analogy to the pressure women may feel to change their name even if it is not something they feel completely comfortable with.


I agree with Moose though about the masculinity thing. I feel that because it is a "tradition" for women to change their name it is easier socially when they do so. I knew a man who changed his name to his wife's last name and everyone whispered behind his back that he was wimpy or a pansy for doing so. His family was also not very happy about it because he had only sisters and so their last name dies with him. I think it makes the most sense if both parties want the same last name and the wife feels uncomfortable with changing all together, to just have both husband and wife hyphenate the names. I feel there are less behind the back comments about men who do this than about men who change their last name to their wife's. But if you are secure on your masculinity then it really shouldn't matter what you do. These ar ejust my opinions.

I think it would be tough to tell the difference between just being more comfortable and conforming to societal pressures. Often, a societal norm that you internalize when you're young will be tough to notice. Many women don't have huge breasts, so I don't believe it's only comfort. If it was primarily comfort, women wouldn't be snarky when other women obviously go without bras... but many, in my experience, are.

If you're secure in your masculinity, it shouldn't matter if you run around in a pink tutu. That's BS. My security allows me to do anything I *want* to. It doesn't encourage me to conform to your expectations just because I'm capable of weathering the disapproval of my fellow men.

 

[caroladybelle]

With 50% of marriages ending in divorce, the family courts completely skewed towards women and with up to 20% of children fathered through adultery, why dont guys just put a bullet in their head and end it quick and painlessly?

Let's see here, with 50% of marriages ending in divorce, the business world skewed towards men and large numbers (probably more than 20%) of children "mothered" through adultery, why don't women not bother with marriage. Most current stats reveal that married men are happier/healthier than single men, that single women are happier/healthier than married women.

On the topic of name changing, I believe the person being asked to change their name should do what is desirable and conveniant to them. If their partner is not happy with that, then the partner can change their name...as it is of primary concern to them. And don't give me that "emasculating" crap....if you can't deal with those issues, you are not mature enough to be married.

It is relatively easy in one's twenties to effect a name change. However, as one acquires degrees, licenses, property, credit accounts, passports, etc., it becomes much more difficult. I have friends that have been married for several years, that still have the old name on some official documents due to roadblocks to changing them.

I personally would change my name..despite the difficulty...but it is because I dislike my Maiden name.

 

[OzDDS]

On the topic of name changing, I believe the person being asked to change their name should do what is desirable and conveniant to them. If their partner is not happy with that, then the partner can change their name...as it is of primary concern to them. And don't give me that "emasculating" crap....if you can't deal with those issues, you are not mature enough to be married.

It is relatively easy in one's twenties to effect a name change. However, as one acquires degrees, licenses, property, credit accounts, passports, etc., it becomes much more difficult. I have friends that have been married for several years, that still have the old name on some official documents due to roadblocks to changing them..

Yes, this is true! This goes for both Men and Women.
One fact that you may not be taking into consideration is that most women prefer to “marry up” (more so than men) seeking out a partner who is at a similar if not higher social standing. So if we are talking about female healthcare professionals. These women.. “IF” married. Might be likely married to other higher level physicians or whathaveyou. Now.. If these women if claiming to have problems changing their name because of “aquired” degrees, licenses, property, credit, passports, etc. Then the type of men they’d probably prefer to marry Damn sure are going to have the same problem if not greater ones. AND Do you think that these men even if able.. are going to jump at the change to change their name for you? I think not!

Women need to realize that you can’t have your cake and eat it too! You can’t have the best of both worlds. If you CHOOSE to focus on your career, AND if you want to get married and have kids.. your going to have to SACRIFICE something! I’m not saying you can’t have both… it is possible.. BUT you can’t have both to the full extent… something has to bend. It’s either got to be your job and career/ego/attitude, or its your family. You are the one who is going to have to CHOOSE what’s more important in your life and go with one or the other.. if you choose to attempt both.. you can’t have very high expectations of the one that you prioritiez as #2.

If you want to focus on your career and want to wear some pants too.. and want to have a family.. and have your husband take YOUR name. Then your going to have to find some tradesman blue collar worker, or unemployed guy to be your “househusband” who will have the kids in bed and your dinner ready when you get home.

But will you really be satisfied with that? You tell me.

Good Luck with that.

 

[OzDDS]

The problem is.. is that most women in general don't know what they really want (even if they think they do). And once they get what they think they want.. It's a women's perrogative to change her mind. No? Most are never satisfied.

So for a man to get involved with a feminist career hungry woman is reiculously stupid on his part. What your going to end up getting is some Type A, Anal, Bitchy, Nagging woman micromanaging every second of your life. And you'll end up pennyless, childless, and have an MI by the age of 42 from the stress.

 

[MollyMalone]

The problem is.. is that most women in general don't know what they really want (even if they think they do). And once they get what they think they want.. It's a women's perrogative to change her mind. No? Most are never satisfied.

So for a man to get involved with a feminist career hungry woman is reiculously stupid on his part. What your going to end up getting is some Type A, Anal, Bitchy, Nagging woman micromanaging every second of your life. And you'll end up pennyless, childless, and have an MI by the age of 42 from the stress.

Holy stereotypes, Batman!

News flash: most people don't know what they want, most people change their minds, and no feminist career hungry woman in her right mind would get involved with someone who thinks the way you do, so you'll never need to worry about it. But your concern for the safety and welfare of your fellow man is touching.

 

[OzDDS]

no feminist career hungry woman in her right mind would get involved with someone who thinks the way you do, so you'll never need to worry about it. But your concern for the safety and welfare of your fellow man is touching.

Thanks!

and yeah. I'm happy about the first point. Because I'd never go near them either. I'm glad it's mutual.

 

[LADoc00]

If your future bride wont even take your name, the whole future of the marriage is iffy at best, to every guy out there that should be a serious red flag. I would love to the see the numbers on divorce rates based on whether the wife kept her name or not, to my knowledge no one has tracked that data. Im sure it would markedly higher than the national average.

Based on purely anecdotal evidence, the reluctance to change names stems from a profound lack of respect and unwilligness to show any submissiveness to the future groom. I have known many a female doc who refused to change her name with husband no1 (often a wimping type A preppy type she met in med school) but when domineering husband no2 came along, they quickly changed their tune.

Therefore, I propose the following litmus test: if your bride to be doesnt want to change her name, then you simply arent a strong enough man for her. Run away.

 

[LADoc00]

The problem is.. is that most women in general don't know what they really want (even if they think they do). And once they get what they think they want.. It's a women's perrogative to change her mind. No? Most are never satisfied.

So for a man to get involved with a feminist career hungry woman is reiculously stupid on his part. What your going to end up getting is some Type A, Anal, Bitchy, Nagging woman micromanaging every second of your life. And you'll end up pennyless, childless, and have an MI by the age of 42 from the stress.

A feminist career hungry woman can be broken, trust me, it just takes the right kinda guy. Put down the Jane Austin crap and read something more akin to the Story of O.

 

[SaraL124]

Whoa: LADoc00 I seriously hope you are joking. Those last two posts are seriously offensive and if you feel that way about women then good luck even finding someone who will marry you, much less change her name.

 

[MoosePilot]

Whoa: LADoc00 I seriously hope you are joking. Those last two posts are seriously offensive and if you feel that way about women then good luck even finding someone who will marry you, much less change her name.

I thought they were funny, in an awesome atavistic way. It's not like he's actually mistreating anyone

 

[MoosePilot]

I thought they were funny, in an awesome atavistic way. It's not like he's actually mistreating anyone

Look at his avatar! Fight Club was all about men regressing to our "core competencies".

I don't believe in "breaking" women, but at the same time I do believe in men being men and women being women. It's more important for everyone to be themself... but there's a reason for most stereotypes. I make sure women know I'm looking for a woman and not a gender neutral life partner.

 

[OzDDS]

I do believe in men being men and women being women... there's a reason for most stereotypes. I make sure women know I'm looking for a woman and not a gender neutral life partner.

Good point!

 

[LADoc00]

Whoa: LADoc00 I seriously hope you are joking. Those last two posts are seriously offensive and if you feel that way about women then good luck even finding someone who will marry you, much less change her name.

You used "seriously" twice in your post Sara, are you a serious person? Were you offended? Im curious whether you would admit to having such fragile sensibilities in a public forum. Sara, get out a little, its a wide wide world out there.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

Who is this?? She's cute eh?

 

[SaraL124]

I find that men who believe a woman should be "broken" by or "submissive" to her husband to be very outdated and yes, an offensive idea in our modern american world.

I don't think that marriages are in any danger because of some women's unwillingness to change their name. Many women prefer to keep their name professionally because they are known that way to patients, etc. As for women who do change their name, I think they would be shocked offended if they thought men believed they did this as a sign of submission to their husband. I changed my name of my own accord. My husband never asked me to nor did he expect me to. However I will still use my maiden name as my middle name and it will appear on all forms, documents, and diplomas. Is that disrespectful, or do you think I am trying to throw the yoke as it were by doing this?

Educated women are rarely submissive. It is a sign of unintelligence and feelings of unworthiness. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a life partner in your intelligence level who would willingly submit to your demands in this respect. She may choose it if her own accord but if you press her, she may just resist to spite you. And that's when marriages fail.

 

[OzDDS]

I would love to the see the numbers on divorce rates based on whether the wife kept her name or not, to my knowledge no one has tracked that data. Im sure it would markedly higher than the national average.

Interesting... I agree with your hypothosis and I too am interested in seeing these numbers.

 

[OzDDS]

I don't think that marriages are in any danger because of some women's unwillingness to change their name.

Sure, why wouldnt it be? Just like when couples live with each other beforehand, or signing a prenuptual, which have both already been proven to be situations highly common among short-lived marriages.. I too think that this is similar. Just another thing that makes it "easier" to seperate oneself from one's husband/spouse.

 

[LADoc00]

Educated women are rarely submissive. It is a sign of unintelligence and feelings of unworthiness. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a life partner in your intelligence level who would willingly submit to your demands in this respect.

Not to be too crude about it Sara, but how many intelligent women have you brought to orgasm? Im gonna guess my 'N' for that is a tad bigger than yours...I couldnt disagree more by the way, the rough childhood/school of hard knocks type women are far more difficult to crack; fresh out of college, med school types are almost too easy. And by the way, submissiveness is not even remotely a sign of unintelligence, but I dont think this is the thread to argue that point.

Regardless of modern psycho babble that dictates relationships should be equal, they almost never are. If that isnt obvious, you havent been in enough.

 

[MoosePilot]

Educated women are rarely submissive. It is a sign of unintelligence and feelings of unworthiness. I think you'd be hardpressed to find a life partner in your intelligence level who would willingly submit to your demands in this respect. She may choose it if her own accord but if you press her, she may just resist to spite you. And that's when marriages fail.

BS. Educated women are just as likely to be submissive. Really intelligent women like the same things other women like. I've met several who've liked being submissive at times, agressive at times, whichever they felt like at the moment.

You've heard the stereotype of the CEO type that wants a dominatrix because he never gets to assume the submissive role? Why would women be different?

If a woman never feels the need to be submissive, I wouldn't be interested in her. If your husband is comfortable with a pure 50/50 split or lets you be in charge, that's his business, but I'd say more men tend to be dominant and more of the women I've been with tend to be willing or enjoy being submissive in bed at least at times (but there might be some selection there).