Lab Drama

[Goro]

How are you being oppressed? Are you being failed in your coursework because you're a woman? Denied entry into medical school because of your gender? Being given only rectal disimpaction jobs in the clinic, and not allowed to put in central lines?

Words are only words, actions have consequences.

Allow me to tell you what real oppression is. Some 50 years ago, my father died when I was 7, leaving my mom to support 3 children and her elderly father-in-law. She took over his sales job (because my dad's bosses didn't want to lose his clients) and because she was a woman, she was not paid the same salary that the other salesmen were paid.

That's oppression. It's still going on, and not because of words people use, or even the thoughts that they have...it's that they put their thoughts into action.

A few of you remind of some of my students...some of them are so thin-skinned you see their internal organs! I swear, they get offended by sunlight!

So remember the words of this great woman:
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Aye aye aye! No beuno! Still a female, so it's oppressive. Racists jokes at males only or GTFO.

They're called "case studies." And none of you had to work with the malignant HR! OK, goro will put the knife away now. Back to your regularly scheduled controversial SDN thread.
For a thread populated by scientists, this thread is filled with anecdotes and unsupported conclusions.

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[noolsy]

For a thread populated by scientists, this thread is filled with anecdotes and unsupported conclusions.

"Come to think of it. There was that one woman in my lab who was really mean to other women. This must be a trend. Let us disregard all the women we may have seen in a lab who did not behave misogynistically. Also, whereas it might be more accurate to say 'some people are misogynists,' let's just go with the women. Because they're vicious." Although this has been cited as a widespread problem in science these days!

I'm in favor of anecdotes, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't curious about drama talk around the water cooler, but I'm kind of surprised that no one is pointing out that basically men AND women treat women badly sometimes (or men badly sometimes). Actually, in my lab, there was a male senior investigator who treated a visiting female scholar (a professor, technically his senior) like absolute **** -- and felt it was ok to yell at me and push me around until I suggested that we have a sit down chat about our differences with our PI. He's fairly non-confrontational with the other men in the lab, if a little bossy. But wow, the PI was telling him to provide some cell cultures for this woman's research, and he just kept coming up with excuses not to until he couldn't anymore, straight up crossed his arms, said "FINE," and pouted. In lab meeting. Half of us couldn't understand at that point why our PI didn't say anything. Maybe because the guy is old and the PI feels bad.

Anyway. I'm not going to start thinking that all lab guys are petty and unkind. But let the record show that pretty much every female postdoc/scholar/etc I've come across -- whether in our lab or in the adjacent lab we shared space with (and that other lab's PI gave EVERYONE reasons to be vicious, imho) -- has been nothing but kind and supportive. A few have even gone out of their way to ask about my life and goals, offer advice, etc.

I should add: I'm not saying women have never been vicious to each other. And perhaps they predominantly have been in Goro et al's experience. But surely these folks can imagine that women have also NOT been vicious to each other. In fact, I think it's not crazy to assume they've worked with women who were perfectly fine working with men or women. But we are using a few anecdotes to generalize unkindly about all women. Even if there is no violent or hateful intent, isn't that technically the definition of sexism?

Also, I originally misused "chauvinist" Oops. TIL.

 

[lumpyduster]

I didn't mean for my personal anecdote to represent woman as a whole (because honestly I think if it weren't for Postdoc #1 I would not have a story to share and my lab is 90% female), and I agree that sexism is currently more subtle than in the 1950s but just as or even more insidious, but I don't expect gossipy behavior from men as much as I women. Maybe it's confirmation bias, subconscious preconceptions of masculinity and feminity, actual behavior based on gender roles, or a hard-wired difference between the sexes, but I don't know and I don't think anyone has a definite answer.

 

[hoihaie]

my postdoc (female) favored male undergrad/grad students because she thinks guys are better: more hardworking, smarter/quicker on our feet, and less prone to careless mistakes.

My greatest accomplishment in lab thus far has been proving her wrong through the "show, don't tell" technique ...

 

[looncat]

"Come to think of it. There was that one woman in my lab who was really mean to other women. This must be a trend. Let us disregard all the women we may have seen in a lab who did not behave misogynistically. Also, whereas it might be more accurate to say 'some people are misogynists,' let's just go with the women. Because they're vicious." Although this has been cited as a widespread problem in science these days!

I'm in favor of anecdotes, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't curious about drama talk around the water cooler, but I'm kind of surprised that no one is pointing out that basically men AND women treat women badly sometimes (or men badly sometimes). Actually, in my lab, there was a male senior investigator who treated a visiting female scholar (a professor, technically his senior) like absolute **** -- and felt it was ok to yell at me and push me around until I suggested that we have a sit down chat about our differences with our PI. He's fairly non-confrontational with the other men in the lab, if a little bossy. But wow, the PI was telling him to provide some cell cultures for this woman's research, and he just kept coming up with excuses not to until he couldn't anymore, straight up crossed his arms, said "FINE," and pouted. In lab meeting. Half of us couldn't understand at that point why our PI didn't say anything. Maybe because the guy is old and the PI feels bad.

Anyway. I'm not going to start thinking that all lab guys are petty and unkind. But let the record show that pretty much every female postdoc/scholar/etc I've come across -- whether in our lab or in the adjacent lab we shared space with (and that other lab's PI gave EVERYONE reasons to be vicious, imho) -- has been nothing but kind and supportive. A few have even gone out of their way to ask about my life and goals, offer advice, etc.

I should add: I'm not saying women have never been vicious to each other. And perhaps they predominantly have been in Goro et al's experience. But surely these folks can imagine that women have also NOT been vicious to each other. In fact, I think it's not crazy to assume they've worked with women who were perfectly fine working with men or women. But we are using a few anecdotes to generalize unkindly about all women. Even if there is no violent or hateful intent, isn't that technically the definition of sexism?

Also, I originally misused "chauvinist" Oops. TIL.

Thank you for stating this in a way I clearly couldn't. Obviously women can be vicious, just as men can, but when you're presented with several women who are vicious and for some reason you're implying that their viciousness is because they're women and not just because they're awful people then you clearly have a problem.

 

[Microglia]

They're called "case studies." And none of you had to work with the malignant HR! OK, goro will put the knife away now. Back to your regularly scheduled controversial SDN thread.

While I have no doubt that this HR was quite the firecracker, that doesn't allow for the mapping of her character traits to the extra X chromosome that she shares with half of all people.

I would never discredit or have a problem with the fact that a woman you are referencing was vicious. The problem is that specific women are being used to draw conclusions about all women.

I recently had a horrible rotation in an almost all women lab, which indeed was a very vicious environment. However, for 4 years before that I worked in an almost all women lab as well, and they were the most caring and supportive people I've ever had the pleasure of working with. Mapping one quality shared by some people that you've met to an entire gender is like saying because aquaporin is a channel, all proteins must be channels when in the membrane. It just doesn't compute.

Sorry about this, I can't seem to get off my soapbox lately..anyway, that's all I've got haha.

Disclaimer: I'm a dude.

 

[Kochanie]

The PI next to us got very enraged when one of us accidentally used one of their ice buckets too. She wrote a formal letter to the head and everything. Pretty funny stuff.

 

[Goro]

This was in reference to lab drama, not that women are always responsible for it. My thesis adviser is female and is the smartest and wisest person I ever met.


While I have no doubt that this HR was quite the firecracker, that doesn't allow for the mapping of her character traits to the extra X chromosome that she shares with half of all people.

I would never discredit or have a problem with the fact that a woman you are referencing was vicious. The problem is that specific women are being used to draw conclusions about all women.

I recently had a horrible rotation in an almost all women lab, which indeed was a very vicious environment. However, for 4 years before that I worked in an almost all women lab as well, and they were the most caring and supportive people I've ever had the pleasure of working with. Mapping one quality shared by some people that you've met to an entire gender is like saying because aquaporin is a channel, all proteins must be channels when in the membrane. It just doesn't compute.

Sorry about this, I can't seem to get off my soapbox lately..anyway, that's all I've got haha.

Disclaimer: I'm a dude.[/QUOTE]

 

[IL Pre Med]

You idiots need to chill the F out and get off Goro's back. I don't know what bubble you live in. Once you wake up and realize that the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns you'll see that there are plenty of biases in the world against anything you can imagine (race, gender, age, etc.) Your internet complaining isn't going to do anything about this. And quite frankly, I agree. Women have way more drama in general than men, I can only imagine this manifesting in some interesting situations in the lab.

 

[Goro]

In the lab, I've always had much better success and results with female students. The last four have been my all-time best. Absolute rock stars!

my postdoc (female) favored male undergrad/grad students because she thinks guys are better: more hardworking, smarter/quicker on our feet, and less prone to careless mistakes.

My greatest accomplishment in lab thus far has been proving her wrong through the "show, don't tell" technique ...

 

[FFH]

Most of the time, lab drama happen because extremely stressed people working under intense pressure could not relax to solve things like normal people. Instead, they resort to impulsive, weird and sometimes creepy, dangerous or even evil measures. It's just sad. I really wished that science can be less cut-throat and more fun for people doing it. I love doing bench work, but I don't miss the lab drama. The delayed rewards also make people cranky. That's part of the reason that I turned to medicine.