Lab moving during Phd

[dmblue]

I'm not sure how many of you have experience with this, but I have a couple questions

A brief background is that I'm about 2/3 done with my PhD, and my PI got offered a better position and is moving. I've already decided to move as well for a variety of reasons.

My issue is that the move will be expensive for me. On my MSTP stipend, It will likely cost about 10% of my salary to move, and I'll have to make the move twice within 18 months. Does anyone have advice on how to convince my PI help me out? He's offered to pay a little bit, but really, it's not enough.

Also, for anyone with experience, what do I need to do to make the move as smooth as possible without much downtime. I'm already busy rewriting animal protocols, helping design the labspace etc.

Thanks

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[ValentinNarcisse]

If its a better school, see if you can do a full transfer as part of the deal. That way you do not have to move back.

 

[ratherbefishing]

Saw one person in your situation stay local and used space in another persons lab to finish up with the original PI. No moved required

 

[Neuronix]

There WILL be downtime. It will probably cost you about a year. Sorry, but there's no way around it. If you can stay where you are and finish in another lab, that's the best advice.

 

[gutonc]

There WILL be downtime. It will probably cost you about a year. Sorry, but there's no way around it. If you can stay where you are and finish in another lab, that's the best advice.

This^. A friend of mine was in a lab where the PI moved. There were 4 MD/PhD students in her lab at the time. Two of them were 1 year in and moved with her, the other 2 (including my friend) were 2+ years in and stayed put because they knew it would delay them significantly. In your case, I'd try to stay put, find another PI that will give you some space and maybe a bit of mentoring as well. Otherwise, you're going to go from 2/3 done to 1/2 done...and be out some cash in the process.

 

[dmblue]

Unfortunately, in my position, staying is not really an option. Every lab i rotated with (and that is even reasonably similar to what i'm doing now) has also left. I would have to almost start a new PhD from scratch. I have completed my 3rd year of phd, and will finish within 2 years if I move. Staying and switching labs will take at least that long. If I stay and try to continue my project away from my PI, then I will not have the equipment I need.

It would be a better institution, but when I broached the subject of the move with my administration, they preemptively said that both degrees would come from my current program. I have no intention of trying to transfer.

 

[oceanmist]

Unfortunately, in my position, staying is not really an option. Every lab i rotated with (and that is even reasonably similar to what i'm doing now) has also left. I would have to almost start a new PhD from scratch. I have completed my 3rd year of phd, and will finish within 2 years if I move. Staying and switching labs will take at least that long. If I stay and try to continue my project away from my PI, then I will not have the equipment I need.

It would be a better institution, but when I broached the subject of the move with my administration, they preemptively said that both degrees would come from my current program. I have no intention of trying to transfer.

Slim chance but I built something that required a few sensors that were under 1k so my question is - will the device you need cost as much or less than the likely 2-3 k relocation costs your PI will have to absorb should you move? If it's much more expensive - is the equipment something the department as a whole may benefit from having? If so they can apply for a small instrumentation grant if departmental funds can't cover cost and this way you could finish your phd with same PI without needing to waste time/money relocating.

 

[dmblue]

Lets start with a $100,000 microscope and move on from there.

There are many lab specific devices that I would require, all of which are are more expensive than moving. Again, staying is not an option.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Unfortunately, in my position, staying is not really an option. Every lab i rotated with (and that is even reasonably similar to what i'm doing now) has also left. I would have to almost start a new PhD from scratch. I have completed my 3rd year of phd, and will finish within 2 years if I move. Staying and switching labs will take at least that long. If I stay and try to continue my project away from my PI, then I will not have the equipment I need.

It would be a better institution, but when I broached the subject of the move with my administration, they preemptively said that both degrees would come from my current program. I have no intention of trying to transfer.

That's not really their decision, but the decision of the program into which you would transfer. If you have already done quals, you may be stuck with the PhD from the old place, but you can definitely transfer for the remaining MD component.

 

[dmblue]

I can look into it, but I also have all my family and friends in the city where my current program is. I qualified over a year ago.

 

[r1oid]

Agree above about the down time, you're looking at 6mon-1yr before you are up and running again. For the financial aspect you might consider a student loan to make it doable, its not fair but its an option. Maybe you can get creative as well ie seeing if there is subsidized student housing or getting the PI to agree to let you add your stuff to the lab move boxes. For the down time maybe you can do some 3rd year rotations while the lab is getting set back up, that way you are at least not wasting time. I'd also solidify data/figures before the move rather than starting up new experiments, random stuff have a way of making things not easily repeatable when in a new environment.

 

[Maebea]

Agree with Neuronix, you should plan on spending an extra year in lab due to the move; this has been the experience in my program. I also agree with ValentinNarcisse your current program should have little to say about you transferring to your mentor's new institution. While transfers are not all that common, your current program should not block you. Finally, your PI needs to step up to the plate to cover your moving expenses and make up any cost of living differential in the new city. The difficulties you are facing are due to a decision he made. He needs to at the very least mitigate the financial damage he is causing you.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

How much time do you have in your current lab before the move?

It seems like your only choice is to move into the new lab. You will definitely lose many months with setting up the new lab, but one thing you can do is try to "lobby" with your PI so that they insist that as much of the new lab is finished up and ready to go before the move as possible. It's not acceptable to move into a barren wasteland lab space that's not even functional for half a year. It needs to be close to ready to go when you guys arrive.

Another thing you can do to expedite things is to get as much of the cell culture/animal/human work done in your current lab as possible. You don't want to waste times on lengthy protocol approvals. If you then have fixed tissue/frozen tissue/cells/etc. that you can use in downstream analyses (that depend on immunoblotting or microscopy setup, for example, but not breeding, animal husbandry, etc.), that could help expedite things as well.

Expect a minimum of 6 months delay, more likely 9 or 12 months from when you would have otherwise finished.

I would also look into wrapping up medical school there, if the reputation is better. One move is bad enough, having another back to your original school is even worse (not to mention that you won't know any students at either school when you enter MS3, and that it's good to have your mentor around in the same location in case you want to wrap up papers, final experiments, etc. during MS3/4.

 

[gbwillner]

If you really think you are only 1-2 years from graduating with your current project then I'd advise you to try to move your current project into the lab or a collaborator or committee member who has your interests in mind.

I find it hard to believe that no other lab at an academic medical center has a "$100,000 microscope". Did your lab invent it? Otherwise, someone else has one. Do you need to capture Z-stacking and fluorescence? Clinical labs will have that. You might need to get creative to get everything you need, and the final product might not be exactly what you originally wanted, but it will get you out the door.

I find it extremely unlikely that your PI would supplement your income more than they have to or will pay you more than they already promised for the move. If they had your best interest in mind they probably don't make the move. They are looking out for #1, and so should you. The fact that they didn't lobby to get you to transfer to the new program is a big f___ you to you IMHO.

I agree with everyone else here that if you DO make the move, you will likely add another year to your PhD, plus have the pain of having to constantly commute to meet with your committee and attend program meetings and conferences. Not sure why it will cost you so much to move- you're probably better off selling all your stuff and renting a crappy little apartment wherever your next place will be.

 

[dmblue]

If you really think you are only 1-2 years from graduating with your current project then I'd advise you to try to move your current project into the lab or a collaborator or committee member who has your interests in mind.

The members of my committee that could have supported me coincidentally have left. The two remaining do very different things.

I find it hard to believe that no other lab at an academic medical center has a "$100,000 microscope". Did your lab invent it? Otherwise, someone else has one. Do you need to capture Z-stacking and fluorescence? Clinical labs will have that. You might need to get creative to get everything you need, and the final product might not be exactly what you originally wanted, but it will get you out the door.

I promise you that they don't' have the microscope. And neither does my lab yet. We are ordering it right now. It autofocuses and autostitches, saving me 1000's of hours of manual work. I can stay and do it manually, or move and have months of time freed up. Anyway, this was just an example. We are a tissue engineering lab with a lot of custom equipment.

I find it extremely unlikely that your PI would supplement your income more than they have to or will pay you more than they already promised for the move. If they had your best interest in mind they probably don't make the move. They are looking out for #1, and so should you. The fact that they didn't lobby to get you to transfer to the new program is a big f___ you to you IMHO.

He's getting a large promotion to an institution that he has wanted to be at for a long time. All students who have not qualified are transferring. I have qualified, and the new institution's md phd department does not accept transfers per https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62760/data/faqtable.pdf. Would not make sense for me to transfer and have to pay for 2 years of medical school out of pocket.

I agree with everyone else here that if you DO make the move, you will likely add another year to your PhD, plus have the pain of having to constantly commute to meet with your committee and attend program meetings and conferences. Not sure why it will cost you so much to move- you're probably better off selling all your stuff and renting a crappy little apartment wherever your next place will be.

Well, I'll probably do committe meetings via skype at the new institution, as 2 of my committee members are already at other institutions. I'm excused from all program meetings, at least for the most part. I have a lot of pretty expensive furniture that I mostly inherited. I am not getting rid of it.

 

[dmblue]

How much time do you have in your current lab before the move?

About 2.5 months.

It seems like your only choice is to move into the new lab. You will definitely lose many months with setting up the new lab, but one thing you can do is try to "lobby" with your PI so that they insist that as much of the new lab is finished up and ready to go before the move as possible. It's not acceptable to move into a barren wasteland lab space that's not even functional for half a year. It needs to be close to ready to go when you guys arrive.

I personally have designed much of the new labspace (with a couple other labmembers). Fortunately not a lot really has to be done other than moving. Construction is already underway and 5/6 of our rooms are scheduled to be ready for our arrival. We know what equipment we have, and what we need. We have a very, very good startup package for buying equipment.

I also have meetings regularly with various people at the new institution for planning.

Another thing you can do to expedite things is to get as much of the cell culture/animal/human work done in your current lab as possible. You don't want to waste times on lengthy protocol approvals. If you then have fixed tissue/frozen tissue/cells/etc. that you can use in downstream analyses (that depend on immunoblotting or microscopy setup, for example, but not breeding, animal husbandry, etc.), that could help expedite things as well.

All 4 animal protocols are already being written. I'm doing a lot of surgeries and in vitro studies right now so that we can just do histology and analysis for a while when we arrive. I think we are moving at least a couple hundred mice, so after quarantine protocols we should be up and running soon. We also have our own surgical suite that will be ready by our move.

I would also look into wrapping up medical school there, if the reputation is better. One move is bad enough, having another back to your original school is even worse (not to mention that you won't know any students at either school when you enter MS3, and that it's good to have your mentor around in the same location in case you want to wrap up papers, final experiments, etc. during MS3/4.

I don't think the school accepts transfer students to their md phd (per AAMC) .


I think what really needs to happen is I need a raise for a few months to lab manager level. haha

 

[StIGMA]

I have qualified, and the new institution's md phd department does not accept transfers per https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62760/data/faqtable.pdf.

My program is on that list as not accepting transfers, but I know a student who was accepted as a transfer (his PI moved). You need to speak to the program directly- ideally with your PI leading the discussion.

 

[dmblue]

My program is on that list as not accepting transfers, but I know a student who was accepted as a transfer (his PI moved). You need to speak to the program directly- ideally with your PI leading the discussion.

Well, I'm already in contact with them. I'll try to bring this up at some point. Thanks for the advice

 

[Scottish Chap]

I'm not sure how many of you have experience with this, but I have a couple questions

A brief background is that I'm about 2/3 done with my PhD, and my PI got offered a better position and is moving. I've already decided to move as well for a variety of reasons.

My issue is that the move will be expensive for me. On my MSTP stipend, It will likely cost about 10% of my salary to move, and I'll have to make the move twice within 18 months. Does anyone have advice on how to convince my PI help me out? He's offered to pay a little bit, but really, it's not enough.

Also, for anyone with experience, what do I need to do to make the move as smooth as possible without much downtime. I'm already busy rewriting animal protocols, helping design the labspace etc.

Thanks

Sorry this happened. I have first-hand experience. If you can, find a lab that will allow you to finish off your project in your present location. Moving will cost you at least a year and, to be frank, it was not your decision to move and so your PI realistically should be footing the bill for any move (or negotiating it with the new place). This is very small change to a large university, but a lot of money to you at this stage of your career. Your main goal is to get back to medical school as soon as possible, get your clinical training, and then settle back into lab.

 

[Petypet]

I also have experience with this, through a classmate that had the choice of move or find a new lab. The PI was willing to help pay for stuff to an extent, but he was so wealthy with grants and had about 15 incoming grad students & post docs that he really didn't care (international faculty, different mindset). The student ended up finding a new lab at the initial university because while he would have no problem with the transfer, he would lose about 6-8 months of dedicated research time to helping with the move. A lot goes into moving a lab, packing, unpacking, resetting up instrumentation, etc etc etc. I would do everything I could to stay at your current university so avoid moving and delaying your graduation.

Sorry I didn't see your comments about staying. I would be very surprised if you had to start a PhD from scratch. You could probably hop on a project or two and graduate. Keep in mind the PhD is just a gateway to opening many doors, and it need not be project specific. Many PhDs graduate with a whole slew of projects. Its more important that you go through the motions of a PhD, research, reading, creative thinking, publishing, writing, communicating, rather than sticking with one or two projects through your original PI. Your university should be more proactive in helping you. Any sort of transferring will put you a years behind in productivity.

 

[dmblue]

By 2 months after the move, my lab was fully functional (though I did at least 60% of the work in a 10 person lab) and my projects are moving forward with some promising results. So to say the least it's possible for a move to go well. I lost about 3 months total and had a lot of stress but am making up ground. I may still make it back to finish in 4 years, but we'll see. I do wish I got more funding for the move, but my expenses are a lot less in the new city.

I'd say that if this happens to anyone else, you have to be extremely proactive about setting up the lab. granted, not everyone gets to design their lab space,surgical suite, etc. Purchasing equipment and supplies, getting approval for all protocols going 1-2 months prior to the move, and meeting with facilities, IT, IACUC, DEA etc. must be done well ahead of the move and takes a great deal of planning and coordination. You can't rely on other people to get things done for you. On the plus side, I now have experience with setting up a lab, which will likely prove useful in the future.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

By 2 months after the move, my lab was fully functional (though I did at least 60% of the work in a 10 person lab) and my projects are moving forward with some promising results. So to say the least it's possible for a move to go well. I lost about 3 months total and had a lot of stress but am making up ground. I may still make it back to finish in 4 years, but we'll see. I do wish I got more funding for the move, but my expenses are a lot less in the new city.

I'd say that if this happens to anyone else, you have to be extremely proactive about setting up the lab. granted, not everyone gets to design their lab space,surgical suite, etc. Purchasing equipment and supplies, getting approval for all protocols going 1-2 months prior to the move, and meeting with facilities, IT, IACUC, DEA etc. must be done well ahead of the move and takes a great deal of planning and coordination. You can't rely on other people to get things done for you. On the plus side, I now have experience with setting up a lab, which will likely prove useful in the future.

Indeed, that is incredibly useful experience and an unforeseen "advantage" of a lab move. Good luck and hope the PhD can be wrapped up on your desired timeline.

 

[gutonc]

By 2 months after the move, my lab was fully functional (though I did at least 60% of the work in a 10 person lab) and my projects are moving forward with some promising results. So to say the least it's possible for a move to go well. I lost about 3 months total and had a lot of stress but am making up ground. I may still make it back to finish in 4 years, but we'll see. I do wish I got more funding for the move, but my expenses are a lot less in the new city.

I'd say that if this happens to anyone else, you have to be extremely proactive about setting up the lab. granted, not everyone gets to design their lab space,surgical suite, etc. Purchasing equipment and supplies, getting approval for all protocols going 1-2 months prior to the move, and meeting with facilities, IT, IACUC, DEA etc. must be done well ahead of the move and takes a great deal of planning and coordination. You can't rely on other people to get things done for you. On the plus side, I now have experience with setting up a lab, which will likely prove useful in the future.

I must say that this timeline is impressive. My lab moved across campus (new space, new department but otherwise unchanged and the same IRB, IACUC and animal facility) but we lost an entire month of productivity. The fact that you moved long distance and managed to get your poop in a group in 2 months is impressive. Good luck on the rest of it.