Least Terrible Professional PsyD schools

[erg923]

the same way that the subprime home loan crisis resulted in hordes of people getting into mortgages they never would have otherwise qualified for (e.g., no income verification, picks carrots for a living, etc).

Are you implying that Bugs Bunny shouldn't get a mortgage? Becaue I would quite possibly have a problem with that, good sir.

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[JeyRo]

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...ome-based-vs-income-contingent-loan-repayment

There is a difference, yes; I honestly couldn't tell you what it is, though, other than that IBR is what's required for PSLF. And PSLF = public sector loan forgiveness, which is a program that forgives your remaining loan debt after working for a qualifying (usually non-profit) public sector employer for 10 years.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...ome-based-vs-income-contingent-loan-repayment

 

[AcronymAllergy]

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...ome-based-vs-income-contingent-loan-repayment

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...ome-based-vs-income-contingent-loan-repayment

Huh, how about that; I could've sworn I remembered seeing that IBR was required for PSLF, although maybe it was just a matter of the types of loans involved. Ahh well, thanks for the link.

 

[Pragma]

There is a difference, yes; I honestly couldn't tell you what it is, though, other than that IBR is what's required for PSLF. And PSLF = public sector loan forgiveness, which is a program that forgives your remaining loan debt after working for a qualifying (usually non-profit) public sector employer for 10 years.

IIRC, ICR also works for PSLF. Can't remember but I think anything tied to income or the standard payment works.

 

[terrybug]

Best thread title I have ever seen on here. hilarious. Wishing you the best of luck with the career choices that lie ahead.

 

[JeyRo]

Speaking of which, what's the least terrible venereal disease?

 

[Sanman]

Speaking of which, what's the least terrible venereal disease?

I vote crabs or early stage syphilis. You definitely don't want to be past the treatable pencillin stage on the latter though.

 

[WisNeuro]

I vote crabs or early stage syphilis. You definitely don't want to be past the treatable pencillin stage on the latter though.

A little tabes dorsalis never killed anyone.....I think...

 

[Sanman]

A little tabes dorsalis never killed anyone.....I think...

Might slow you down a bit though...

 

[psyd102]

OK so...point more than well taken.

I have a 2.9 undergrad from Central Michigan University, a 3.85 in four classes I took at Valpo, and I'm working on my GRE right now. Would you all recommend getting a Master's with research experience and then going for counseling PhD? That is sounding like a much better plan long range, although the idea of going a master's for the sole purpose of getting into a PhD sounds like a damn long path...if I'm really going to be as bad off as you're all saying with a PsyD, its probably worth it.

So I hear what everyone is saying but... I go to a professional school and know several people that matched at APA sites. Also, the people who didn't ranked non-APA sites as their top because they don't really care about APA accredation for internship based on the field they are going into. Furthermore, I know PLENTY of people that graduated from my professional school that have amazing careers. Yes, if you want to be a famous researcher at a prestigious institution, I would say those schools are not your best bet. But if you are willing to work and really go above and beyond, you will do great and end up where you want! I honestly think it is a case by case basis- no need to throw all professional schools down the drain. I don't know- from my perspective, I also had a poorer GPA in undergrad, no master's degree, and was just hoping somewhere would take a chance on me. Now I am launched into this amazing future I never dreamed of. For me, it's totally worth the debt I'm in because I know I will succeed in the future, as an individual, not just based on the name of my school. Just because it's professional school doesn't mean it has poor training- I got amazing training (at least in my opinion, and according to several internship sites I interviewed at). So yes, it may not be the same as doing the PhD thing and getting paid for doing research, but I think it really depends on your priorities.

 

[Sanman]

Psyd102,


I 'm glad that you are enjoying your experience and I agree that not all PsyD programs are the same, but I am curious about a few things:

1. What career tracks caused people to choose non- APA internships?

2 . What kind of amazing careers are you referring to?

3. How do you plan to manage your loans when you get out and have to pay them back?

 

[psyd102]

1. People who plan on getting licensed in states that don't require postdoc or APA accredited internship, people who are going into private practice or community-based agencies/community mental health.
2. In my opinion, having an amazing career is whatever makes you happy- so I know people doing great in private practice, community-based agencies, hospitals.
3. I plan to base my loan repayment on income so it is cheaper, work in public service or rural community mental health, and I didn't take out as many loans because I work 3 jobs outside of grad school.

 

[psyd102]

Again that is what works for me, but I'm not saying it's for everybody! I am just saying you can be happy even if you are in a "terrible" professional school! I don't agree with the whole professional school philosophy, but it is what worked for me.

 

[erg923]

Again that is what works for me, but I'm not saying it's for everybody! I am just saying you can be happy even if you are in a "terrible" professional school! I don't agree with the whole professional school philosophy, but it is what worked for me.

Is that what we should be striving for...as a field, in our training models and programs? To accomodate individuals who may indeed succeed, but have questionable objective evidence of such? What do you think? Do you think this is healthy for the group?

 

[psyd102]

Is that what we shpuld be striving for...as a field, ir our training models and programs? To accomodate individuals who may indeed succeed, but have questionable objective evidence of such? What do you think? Do you think this is healthy for the group?

For what group? The group that thinks you have to be from a top notch program to be a successful psychologist? Well maybe not...but that's a very narrow viewpoint. I didn't realize my personal success and the success of my colleagues and alumni was questionable. APA doesn't think so at least..we are accredited. Hmm my roommate just thinks some people are salty about psyd's taking the all the jobs... Maybe he's right...But it's America so oh well!! Haha

 

[bcliff]

it's America so oh well!! Haha

ain't that the truth

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

But if you are willing to work and really go above and beyond, you will do great and end up where you want!

This just isn't a realistic approach to training within the field. Most everyone is already working really hard, so to expect to just do more/better is not feasible for the vast majority of people. I hope you are successful in the future, though most likely people will drift back to the middle...such is life on the bell curve.

 

[Sanman]

ain't that the truth

You're right, it is America. We have a bad habit of bankrupting the future to make money in the present. You may turn out fine or you may be under or unemployed with six figure debt. The beauty of that gamble is if you lose you've just ruined your life. Perhaps you are okay with that for your future and that of your colleagues. Personally, I am not. I think we do a disservice to any person that gets through a program and can't get a decent job.

 

[bcliff]

You're right, it is America. We have a bad habit of bankrupting the future to make money in the present. You may turn out fine or you may be under or unemployed with six figure debt. The beauty of that gamble is if you lose you've just ruined your life. Perhaps you are okay with that for your future and that of your colleagues. Personally, I am not. I think we do a disservice to any person that gets through a program and can't get a decent job.

hey that's like just your opinion man why won't you let me follow my dreams

 

[cara susanna]

3. I plan to base my loan repayment on income so it is cheaper, work in public service or rural community mental health, and I didn't take out as many loans because I work 3 jobs outside of grad school.

How on earth did you have time to attend grad school, complete practica placements, etc, while working three jobs?

 

[MCParent]

1. People who plan on getting licensed in states that don't require postdoc or APA accredited internship, people who are going into private practice or community-based agencies/community mental health.

So your plans involve shooting yourselves in the knee from the get-go?

That is a bad plan.

2. In my opinion, having an amazing career is whatever makes you happy

I feel a mixture of amusement and sadness when this is, repeatedly, mentioned on the boards. This is very easy to say before you have a partner, children, a house, car payments, higher taxes, medical insurance, want to go on a small vacation....

3. I plan to base my loan repayment on income so it is cheaper, work in public service or rural community mental health, and I didn't take out as many loans because I work 3 jobs outside of grad school.

Your plan requires other people you have no control over as specific external agents (working in PS or rural). That is a bad plan.

I am just saying you can be happy even if you are in a "terrible" professional school! I don't agree with the whole professional school philosophy, but it is what worked for me.

I was unaware that personal happiness was the primary goal of education.

How on earth did you have time to attend grad school, complete practica placements, etc, while working three jobs?

I have a guess, but it's probably too trivially obvious to spell out.

 

[erg923]

I was unaware that personal happiness was the primary goal of education.

This is also what I was getting at with my comment. The field, and programs should not be striving to accommodate individuals who really want to be psychologist and promise to work really hard. It's suppose to be the other way around.

 

[erg923]

For what group? The group that thinks you have to be from a top notch program to be a successful psychologist?

Well, Yes. How could that be a bad thing?

 

[erg923]

I don't think there is evidence of psyds "taking all the jobs," but I do think there is concern on how the explosion of marginally trained candidates (scientifically and clinically) from fsps effects our image, our services, and advancement as a field? Could you agree with that statement?

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't think people are "salty" about PsyD's taking "all the jobs." I think they are salty for PsyD's watering down the market and driving down our wage structure.

 

[JeyRo]

I didn't realize my personal success and the success of my colleagues and alumni was questionable.

It's not about you personally - although your list of answers to Sanman's questions sound eerily similar to many of the pie-in-the-sky kinds of ideas I had justifying my FSPS decision about a decade ago (when average debt loads were probably half they are now, and interest rates were many times less than they are now).

However, I think it's pretty indisputable that FSPS tend to graduate people (even from APA-accredited schools) that often perform just dismally - even embarrassingly compared to many of their colleagues. That's what people mean about driving down standards. Doesn't mean you won't land an APA internship and postdoc. Doesn't mean *you* won't get a great VA position, or maybe even land some great hard-money position at an AMC somewhere, or better. But think on this....

True story - obviously just an anecdote, but I think it's instructive. I graduated from a well-known, relatively (maybe not saying much) respected FSPS about a decade ago. I ended up doing some great training, getting a nice VA position, I'm doing relatively well (aside from my student loan payments, which does seem to function like a venereal disease that never goes away).

Anyways, there's a colleague I trained with, at least, this person started at the same time I did. As opposed to my total of six years of graduate work and training, this person took ten years completing training, with multiple practicum after interminable practicum. This person was really a terrible student, never seemed quite able to finish the dissertation, never seemed to actually land an internship. This person was very nice - but everyone that knew this person kind of agreed the issue was being a bit out of one's league most of the time. Eventually this fellow student graduated and got the degree, although I shudder to think how much more debt was racked up (the school charges you when you're doing practica regardless of circumstance). I last checked on this person about a year or two ago - this person has since gone back to doing exactly what this person was doing prior to getting into graduate school - touring flea markets and selling handmade items. Of course now this person gets the honorific "doctor."

I don't think you'd ever find that story coming from a funded program - even from one of the less-respected ones.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My take is that regardless of the program, I don't think an individual should have to go above and beyond to be a competent practitioner and, at the least, critical and consistent consumer of up-to-date research upon graduation. In fact, I feel that if someone does the absolute bare minimum at a program, then what I've just said should still all be true. We've likely all heard the, "what do you call the student who was last in their medical school class?" joke. The same should be true for psychology in the sense that the last person in his/her class should still be adequately trained to independently practice as a doctoral-level mental health provider.

It shouldn't be up to the student to have to determine that not pursuing extra activities would leave them uncompetitive for internship, postdoc, and employment; that's the program's responsibility. And I worry that with many of the chronic offender programs out there, this isn't the case--that if you skate through doing the least amount of work possible to earn a degree, you'll be ill-prepared to practice competently (and therefore ethically).

 

[erg923]

Erg,

I think it is both. There are APA sites that have psyds on staff and they select psyds for internships postdocs and staff positions. At the same time, we have the psyd under culture of cobbled internships postdocs and desperation jobs including unpaid and underpaid situations w supervision by social workers and other unqualified types. This happens in high numbers and it influences the expectations and impressions of other professionals, devaluing what it means to be a psychologist.

Right, well, what I meant was that I think thats quite a poor way to think about the issue. It ignores many complex isues about standards, training, supply/demand, etc in favor of arguement that puts the blame on one side and, again, makes it com off as a personal.

"Taking all the jobs" in the sense that they are taking from me, no. And even if that happened, its generally not the psyd aspect that was causitive. But, I do indeed have a problem, as a said before, with the number of psychologists with shakey scientific competencey being pumped into a profession whose roots and strengths lie in its experimental/empirical approach to understanding and ameliorating human suffering.

 

[Qwerk]

Now I am launched into this amazing future I never dreamed of.

I don't want to derail the thread, but since you all seem to be talking about debt and program cost, let me just take this opportunity to say OH LORD GOD WHY JESUS HELP WHY.

Why do these threads keep popping up over and over again? Can't we collectively agree that this is bats**t insane? Even those of you currently in expensive doctoral programs must have lingering doubts. I believe that even though you deny it. This is why social workers hijack these topics with suggestions for good clinical master's programs. $300k+ in debt? On a psychologist's salary? How do these programs fill their slots? Seriously, how? I don't want to insult anyone's program, but sweet Jesus, who on earth has the serenity to be crushed under a money boulder for the rest of his or her life? Why is there even an argument?

Hear me out. I make a good salary with terrific benefits as an M.S.W., especially for a semi-recent grad. My union grants me automatic raises, and I'm getting one this summer with another to follow shortly. No debt. No 7+ years of school. Granted, I don't make quite as much as a psychologist, but thanks to good old scope creep and some post-master's training, my prospects are bright.

I'm making one last plea. Potential therapists, however good the training might be in that costly program you're eyeing, please stop and breathe deeply. A master's is not a death sentence. Good institute training exists. You won't be able to call yourself "doctor" (which I suspect is the main draw), but you will be able to live without a staggering amount of cognitive dissonance.

(This is kind of a weird post to jump back in on, since I haven't posted in a long time, but whatever.)

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't want to derail the thread, but since you all seem to be talking about debt and program cost, let me just take this opportunity to say OH LORD GOD WHY JESUS HELP WHY.

You're preaching to the choir man.

 

[Qwerk]

You're preaching to the choir man.

It's good to see that this forum still skews anti-unfunded-doctorate and that there's always a good amount of pushback whenever this stuff gets posted. I wish more people would log on here before they get enticed by the pop-up ads. I see these students IRL all the time and they don't seem to think they made weird decisions (not that I bring up debt slavery when people mention where they went/go to school). To bring back an analogy I used once, seeing all these grads is like meeting people who are extremely passionate about their wonderful, reliable Honda Accords and Buick Regals that car dealers somehow convinced were worth Ferrari prices.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's good to see that this forum still skews anti-unfunded-doctorate and that there's always a good amount of pushback whenever this stuff gets posted. I wish more people would log on here before they get enticed by the pop-up ads. I see these students IRL all the time and they don't seem to think they made weird decisions (not that I bring up debt slavery when people mention where they went/go to school). To bring back an analogy I used once, seeing all these grads is like meeting people who are extremely passionate about their wonderful, reliable Honda Accords and Buick Regals that car dealers somehow convinced were worth Ferrari prices.

I don't like that analogy. I own a reliable Honda Accord, that thing is great, and it resents being compared to the Alliant and Argosys of the world.

 

[Qwerk]

I don't like that analogy. I own a reliable Honda Accord, that thing is great, and it resents being compared to the Alliant and Argosys of the world.

Last time I used that analogy, I think I said "Hyundai Elantra" and another psychologist objected to me comparing his/her baby to an FSPS. This is why I'm never going on to doctoral study. You guys seem to own the most boring cars.

 

[WisNeuro]

Oops, I meant to say Honda Civic. Not much better. Gets great gas mileage and has never had to have work done besides regular maintenance. I'd rather spend my money on traveling, sports, and outdoor activities

 

[cara susanna]

Last time I used that analogy, I think I said "Hyundai Elantra" and another psychologist objected to me comparing his/her baby to an FSPS. This is why I'm never going on to doctoral study. You guys seem to own the most boring cars.

Mine gets great mileage, and is therefore very much unlike an FSPS!

 

[Qwerk]

Oops, I meant to say Honda Civic. Not much better. Gets great gas mileage and has never had to have work done besides regular maintenance. I'd rather spend my money on traveling, sports, and outdoor activities

Yeah, well, my spiffy master's-level car is way better. My car is...is...uh...the subway.

*sobs*

*goes to shower off all that hobo pee*

 

[MCParent]

I don't want to derail the thread, but since you all seem to be talking about debt and program cost, let me just take this opportunity to say OH LORD GOD WHY JESUS HELP WHY.

That's funny. Because on another, recent, thread, someone was saying about how awful we all are for being "mean" to people who post about their FSPS aspirations.

Look at this thread.
"We're APA accredited, so we're just as good as everyone else!"
"You're just jealous the PsyDs are taking your jobs"
"I'M happy, and you saying these things is mean"

Sigh.

 

[WisNeuro]

That's funny. Because on another, recent, thread, someone was saying about how awful we all are for being "mean" to people who post about their FSPS aspirations.

Look at this thread.
"We're APA accredited, so we're just as good as everyone else!"
"You're just jealous the PsyDs are taking your jobs"
"I'M happy, and you saying these things is mean"

Sigh.

What's more mean? Telling someone the realities of certain decisions, backed up with real data? Or, misleading and placating them into taking out a few hundred thousand in student loans that they will spend most of their career paying back for subpar training at certain institutions?

 

[PsyDr]

Has anyone ever seen narcissists come to an agreement about who is better?

 

[Rivi]

Why do these threads keep popping up over and over again? Can't we collectively agree that this is bats**t insane? $300k+ in debt? On a psychologist's salary? How do these programs fill their slots? Seriously, how? Why is there even an argument?

Truth. The grad school process is stressful enough as is, why add to your stress with the financial debt and bad reputation of professional schools?

 

[PsyDr]

Wanna argue about if your dad could beat up my dad? Oops. I meant if you studied under someone more prestigious?

 

[MWUstudent]

I am wondering, based upon experience and also "hearsay", what are the least awful professional schools for psychology? Right now I am looking at:
American School of Prof Psychology (APA match rate 27/40 kids? That seems alright...
Wisconsin School of Prof Psychology (not sure of APA match rate, but small classes)
Chicago School Prof Psychology (APA match 50%. Have heard some shaky things about this school, however.)
Illinois School Professional Psychology (34% match, ouch)
Georgia School Prof Psychology

Mind you, I am also applying to university based Psy-Ds, but I have some geographic limitations and I need a few "fall back" schools.

I don't want to debate/discuss the merits of professional schools, particularly. I have a horrible undergrad GPA that I am working on rectifying with some Master's coursework and a great GRE, but I am no PhD candidate- and this is what I want to do. I have made my peace with not getting a top tier job.

First of all, just because you attend a professional psychology school does not mean that you will not receive a top tier job. I attended a recently unaccredited school (Midwestern University-- we are now APA accredited which helped a lot come internship) and, due to excellent training and a decent personality while interviewing, I was fortunate enough to receive an APA internship at one of the top medical schools in the country. I will be working with nearly all Ph.D.s (all of whom seem lovely, I might add) and I have received job offers from my previous two training sites already. Moral of the story? The name of your school or the type of degree does not equal automatic mediocrity. I went out of my way to pursue excellent training at practicum sites and leadership positions at my school. Also, I have ZERO research experience (with the exception of collecting data-- no publications) and I still received 9 APA interviews for internship. I'm not posting this to brag, but to instead try to dispell this unfortunate notion that what type of degree and/or your school's name is the deciding factor in internships. Honestly, in my experience, internships cared a lot more about your passion, training experience, and, quite frankly, if you had a decent, non-abrasive personality that was pleasant and not pompous. Don't lose faith-- pursue your passion in this field to the utmost, become friendly and professional with your supervisors, and beef up on your interviewing skills.

On a separate note, also check out Roosevelt University in Chicago-- I know several people from that school and it seems like they are pretty good at prepping their students for internship. I would also recommend my school, Midwestern University, as they have made a great deal of changes and the training director goes out of her way to help you get exactly what you want. However, since this is our first year as an APA-accredited school, our APA-internship match rate is still not up to others' standards (however, we do have a 100% match rate to APPIC sites); like I previously stated, that hasn't stood in my way so don't let anyone tell you that you will be a mediocre psychologist just because you attend a professional school. There are plenty of poor clinicians who come from these "top notch" schools and fabulous clinicians from the schools that others scoff at. You just have to work extra hard to ensure that your training is superb regardless of your school.

Best of luck to you! Also, sorry for the long post!

 

[erg923]

So the fact that you have succeded in this program is the reason for your recommending it? Do you think there are other factors that should go into recommending a program beyond your personal outcome?

Cost (tuition) vs median income, perhaps? Total debt load? Match rate? EPPP pass rate? Quality of Supervision of clinical activities? Number of EBT protocols learned? Diversity of practicum sites and diversity of practicum activities? Hopefully we are doing more than just therapy and testing these days, right?Number of faculty involved in scholarly productivity with students? Number of students presenting empirical projects at conferences? Number of students contributing to the literature in their area of clinical interest? Group/cohort outcomes? Work place setting post graduation?

I think most reasonable people would agree that you have to have some metric to recommend a program, not merely: "I worked real hard and did great, I'm sure you could too." I would hope that psychologists would be a bit more wary about using the "if I can do it you can do it" logic. Large N is more reliable than small N, right?

 

[JeyRo]

It's the special snowflake argument.

Get into 200K+ debt at a school with less-than-stellar (or downright terrible) stats, but don't worry, you can be above average and succeed.

 

[cara susanna]

Also, I have ZERO research experience (with the exception of collecting data-- no publications) and I still received 9 APA interviews for internship.

That's great for you, I guess, but the APPIC stats show that people with publications have a higher match rate. Furthermore, I interviewed at a few medical school internships and my publications were always mentioned by faculty. They might have some exceptions (such as in your case), but I don't think it's safe to say that publications are not necessary to anyone interested in that particular setting.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

That's great for you, I guess, but the APPIC stats show that people with publications have a higher match rate. Furthermore, I interviewed at a few medical school internships and my publications were always mentioned by faculty. They might have some exceptions (such as in your case), but I don't think it's safe to say that publications are not necessary to anyone interested in that particular setting.

Pubs also help when it comes to postdocs and, depending on where you're looking, jobs. Also, the experience of writing up manuscripts goes a long way toward furthering your understanding of the research process and also requires that you intimately familiarize yourself with the relevant current literature. At this point, while I like the extra lines on my CV, I work at publishing for my own benefit in that regard more than anything else.

Edit: And congrats on the internship, MWUstudent.

 

[erg923]

Also, I have ZERO research experience (with the exception of collecting data-- no publications) and I still received 9 APA interviews for internship. I'm not posting this to brag, but to instead try to dispell this unfortunate notion that what type of degree and/or your school's name is the deciding factor in internships. Honestly, in my experience, internships cared a lot more about your passion, training experience, and, quite frankly, if you had a decent, non-abrasive personality that was pleasant and not pompous.

It's also dangerous to get into that mindset because I think it contributes to an early loss of professional identity as a psychologist.

I always make it a point to mention that I am not in academia (and longer) and have an essentially 100% clinical position. Nevertheless, "scholarly productivity" is the 3rd item on my annual performance evaluation. Because, my employer, surprise, surprise, thinks psychologists should be scientists as well as clinicians. Go figure.

 

[Qwerk]

You just have to work extra hard to ensure that your training is superb regardless of your school.

I really hate the idea that anyone should be picking an institution that will make its students work extra-hard to have a level of training comparable to people from more reputable schools. And we're not even talking about tuition cost yet.

There are plenty of poor clinicians who come from these "top notch" schools and fabulous clinicians from the schools that others scoff at.

That is very true. It's also irrelevant. I know successful people who graduated from some of the worst, most violent high schools in Brooklyn, but I wouldn't go around recommending that anyone transfer there. I know people who graduated from top-tier colleges who work at Outback Steakhouse. The question isn't: "Has anyone successful and well-trained ever gone there, ever?" The question is: "Can the average applicant do well here?" Or, especially: "Should I recommend that someone plunk down a few hundred grand for this?"

 

[PsyDr]

I find it odd that an MSW, who has not attended a psychology program, is advocating anything on doctoral psychology programs.

 

[Sanman]

All the fighting and silliness really isn't getting anywhere. I agree with john snow that fit is definitely a big part of things. I think that PsyD (and really phd) programs fall into 3 tiers and lumping them all together is silly. Pretty much everyone here will agree that going to Baylor or Rutgers is not a bad thing. Then there are university based programs that you pay for. These are a mixed bag, IMO. Having gone to a funded program away from home, I do think I could have attended one of a number of decent PsyD programs, lived with my family and ended up with a similar debt level due to the cost of living difference with free rent. I know plenty of people from these programs with decent jobs. Many of them are at VA hospitals now. Then there is Alliant and argosy. These I really would question. While I know a few people who have done okay coming from them, they are expensive and have little support and networking and it is usually a sink or swim in private practice situation.