Leaving a postdoc early.

[psychstudent5]

I have accepted a 2 year postdoc at a prestigious university doing research that I like. However, the NIH stipend pay is terrible for the area that I live in. Because it's a 2 year grant, the 1st year is guaranteed and the 2nd year is renewable. My plan is to do 1 year and spruce up my publications/presentations. Then, leave before the 2nd year begins to get a real job in the southeast (where I'm from) that pays a livable salary and has a lower cost of living (i have loans to pay back!).

So, has anyone done this or know someone who has done this, meaning left a postdoc early for a job offer? If so, how did they handle it?

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[WisNeuro]

I have accepted a 2 year postdoc at a prestigious university doing research that I like. However, the NIH stipend pay is terrible for the area that I live in. Because it's a 2 year grant, the 1st year is guaranteed and the 2nd year is renewable. My plan is to do 1 year and spruce up my publications/presentations. Then, leave before the 2nd year begins to get a real job in the southeast (where I'm from) that pays a livable salary and has a lower cost of living (i have loans to pay back!).

So, has anyone done this or know someone who has done this, meaning left a postdoc early for a job offer? If so, how did they handle it?

In certain specialties, it's definitely frowned upon. If you're part of a smaller sub-field (e.g., neuro) then word can get around and it may cost you some job opportunities. I don't know how that relates to the research arena. I guess it depends on why you are leaving. If it's because the experience was not as advertised, I'd be ok with it. If it was your intention all along to just milk some pubs out for a year and bolt early, that's kind of a dick move.

 

[neuronic]

If you are looking to be licensed, remember it will be these folks who you will need to sign off on your time. However, this situation occurs much more than people likely imagine. Just make sure it is a bridge worth burning and try not to completely catch them off guard, as they are investing time and money in you.

 

[thewesternsky]

From what I've heard (especially in academic circles), it's completely normal to begin looking for jobs during post-doc and to leave once you have one. YMMV, of course.

 

[psychstudent5]

If you are looking to be licensed, remember it will be these folks who you will need to sign off on your time. However, this situation occurs much more than people likely imagine. Just make sure it is a bridge worth burning and try not to completely catch them off guard, as they are investing time and money in you.

Oh definitely! I had no intention of being like "Oh yeah, btw, I'm leaving in 2 weeks! Good luck on finding someone." lol I planned to give them a heads up when I started to hear back from jobs and to offer to help them find someone to replace me. I don't want to leave anyone or project hanging, and I really don't want to burn a bridge.

 

[psychstudent5]

From what I've heard (especially in academic circles), it's completely normal to begin looking for jobs during post-doc and to leave once you have one. YMMV, of course.

See, I didn't know this. I didn't/don't know how realistic people are with postdocs. Most people (self included) view the postdoc is a training ground for a job. So, in my mind, I assumed if I find a job after the 1st year then it would be crazy to turn it down because the purpose of the postdoc is to springboard you to a job. Glad to know that it's common cause I think it is impractical to turn down a job (doing what you want to do with more pay) to stay in a postdoc.

 

[Balmoral]

See, I didn't know this. I didn't/don't know how realistic people are with postdocs. Most people (self included) view the postdoc is a training ground for a job. So, in my mind, I assumed if I find a job after the 1st year then it would be crazy to turn it down because the purpose of the postdoc is to springboard you to a job. Glad to know that it's common cause I think it is impractical to turn down a job (doing what you want to do with more pay) to stay in a postdoc.

I think it depends on your postdoc contract. If it is a 1 year contract that you can re-up, I believe you then have some flexibility after the first year; however, If you sign a 2 year contract, I think you are bound to this. (morally if not ethically). It was mentioned that if the postdoc did not live up to certain expectations, then they did not live up to their contract and you can file a grievance and exit. I would just be mindful what type of reputation you start building especially in you're early career. Also, if you leave in not so good terms, you might end up with a hole when it comes to recommendations.

Since you were away of the pay, why did you sign the contract if you think it was too low? FYI I believe you can defer loan repayment if you're in a postdoc.

 

[edieb]

I think it depends on your postdoc contract. If it is a 1 year contract that you can re-up, I believe you then have some flexibility after the first year; however, If you sign a 2 year contract, I think you are bound to this. (morally if not ethically). It was mentioned that if the postdoc did not live up to certain expectations, then they did not live up to their contract and you can file a grievance and exit. I would just be mindful what type of reputation you start building especially in you're early career. Also, if you leave in not so good terms, you might end up with a hole when it comes to recommendations.

Since you were away of the pay, why did you sign the contract if you think it was too low? FYI I believe you can defer loan repayment if you're in a postdoc.

I agree. From what you stated, it is a one year contract and either your employer, or yourself, can decide to renew for a second post-doctoral year. Also, I would not tell them I was leaving UNTIL I had secured a job, not just when I started to hear back from prospective employers

 

[AcronymAllergy]

From what I've heard (especially in academic circles), it's completely normal to begin looking for jobs during post-doc and to leave once you have one. YMMV, of course.

I would imagine this likely varies quite a bit based on the type and length of postdoc. I don't know of anyone who left a formal one-year postdoc early for a job (although I do know of folks who initially accepted, and then reneged before starting after getting hired on elsewhere). These were generally for more clinically-oriented postdocs, though, where the intention was to gain additional competency in a particular specialty area. That could explain the high proportion of folks sticking around for the full year.

For a two-year, non-neuro gig, particularly for one that's research-centered, I personally have no idea how common it would be to leave early.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

There was a new employee at the VA I work at that skipped out on a postdoc elsewhere to get a job. It was talked about it with some negativity among fellow employees. Funny thing, about 4 months later he then bailed on the job at my VA to work somewhere else. Guess it said something that he was willing to bail once?

I think that unless you find out it's really quite acceptable to bail out early of your postdoc (given your specialty for instance), I would be careful of doing so. Some people may be fine with it, others may look negatively upon it. Also, I'm not quite sure what kind of position you're hoping to get (I assume research?), but depending on when the hiring cycle starts (and when those positions are then set to begin), you might not have much time to spruce up your publications before having to apply. I imagine that's why research postdocs are typically 2 years in comparison with clinical postdocs.

 

[VeryHopeful2010]

If you are on a grant, do you have a payback agreement if you do not take the second year? I know for my F32, I have a payback agreement if I do not take the second year (which I may not, so you are not alone). I believe I have to do some sort of health-related research, but I'm still looking into it.

 

[LM02]

The payback agreement only applies to NRSAs (F32, T32, etc). However, you don't have to use the NRSA to do the payback - as long as you are in a job that is at a minimum 50% research, you could technically terminate the NRSA after one year and "pay back" your time through your new job.

 

[Ollie123]

I don't think its uncommon though I'm sure the reactions people have varies significantly. While its generally a bad idea to burn bridges, its also a bad idea to spend additional years languishing in a post-doc where you aren't publishing. Its a horrible idea to turn down a dream faculty job because your post-doc doesn't want to let you go.

I've had pretty good luck with supervisors and my experience has been that folks are generally understanding even if they are sorry to see you go and don't necessarily agree with your decision. We had this exact situation in our lab recently and things were resolved without incident. That said, I realize that isn't always going to be the case. This will really depend on the individuals involved though so we are not in a good position to judge. Are your supervisors genuinely nice people who seem to care about you and your career or bordering on sociopathic?

 

[psychstudent5]

The payback agreement only applies to NRSAs (F32, T32, etc). However, you don't have to use the NRSA to do the payback - as long as you are in a job that is at a minimum 50% research, you could technically terminate the NRSA after one year and "pay back" your time through your new job.

I checked into this and you are correct. I am under a payback agreement but as long as my job is research related, then there is no payback. I plan to stay in research so I am not worried about this agreement.

 

[psychstudent5]

I don't think its uncommon though I'm sure the reactions people have varies significantly. While its generally a bad idea to burn bridges, its also a bad idea to spend additional years languishing in a post-doc where you aren't publishing. Its a horrible idea to turn down a dream faculty job because your post-doc doesn't want to let you go.

I've had pretty good luck with supervisors and my experience has been that folks are generally understanding even if they are sorry to see you go and don't necessarily agree with your decision. We had this exact situation in our lab recently and things were resolved without incident. That said, I realize that isn't always going to be the case. This will really depend on the individuals involved though so we are not in a good position to judge. Are your supervisors genuinely nice people who seem to care about you and your career or bordering on sociopathic?

Yeah, I'm not trying to burn bridges at all. However, I do want to make sure I leave myself open and available for the best opportunities that come my way. My supervisors have been good to me and seem to care about helping me build a solid career. So, that seems like a good sign that they would be understanding.

 

[psychstudent5]

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback. It's made me consider quite a few things and will be helpful in me going forward.

 

[restingbeachface]

I was reading through the threads and was wondering if anyone could lend some advice.

I'm in a somewhat similar position. Long story short, I accepted a two year post doc position that was supposed to be both research and clinical responsibilities. But as my post doc went on, really from the beginning, my research effort is probably less than 10% of my week. I enjoy my postdoc, and I'm almost done with hours for licensure. But my ideal situation is a faculty position afterwards and I feel like I'm not being very productive. My supervisor is aware of my concerns but I'm not sure at this point it's feasible to make changes to my time. I don't have a payback agreement. Is it worth finding a research postdoc for the 2nd year? Did I shoot myself in the foot taking this position if I wanted a faculty position?

 

[Ollie123]

I was reading through the threads and was wondering if anyone could lend some advice.

I'm in a somewhat similar position. Long story short, I accepted a two year post doc position that was supposed to be both research and clinical responsibilities. But as my post doc went on, really from the beginning, my research effort is probably less than 10% of my week. I enjoy my postdoc, and I'm almost done with hours for licensure. But my ideal situation is a faculty position afterwards and I feel like I'm not being very productive. My supervisor is aware of my concerns but I'm not sure at this point it's feasible to make changes to my time. I don't have a payback agreement. Is it worth finding a research postdoc for the 2nd year? Did I shoot myself in the foot taking this position if I wanted a faculty position?

I wouldn't say the last sentence is necessarily true depending on what sort of position you are aiming for (obviously the higher one aims, the more likely even brief windows of not publishing will have a negative impact). That said, I'd absolutely look elsewhere and/or give them an ultimatum. If they had told you it was 50/50 and you can document that you had patients booked 6-7 hours/day every day this year....guess what. Next year you get to stop seeing patients and they still pay you or you walk away. Not that I'm saying that is how you present it up front, but you need to make it clear - especially if you have a contract documenting research effort. The responsibility should not be on you to "figure it out" if they told you there would be substantial research time and are not following through. Its your career and there is no sense wasting time in a post-doc that won't get you where you want to go. Burning bridges stinks, but this is one of those situations where I think its worth the risk. Know several people who got a "bait and switch" where advisors claimed there were opportunities for research and it turned out that was not the case.

 

[smalltownpsych]

What is up with the two year postdocs? I get why we do this for a specialty like neuro but for anything else is it just a way of getting one more year of cheap labor? We already spend longer in training than anyone else. We have way more value than we realize IMO and we don't fight for it enough. I hired postdocs and post MAs and our company paid them the same. Which ones do you think were worth more?

 

[restingbeachface]

I did a two year post doc for the research experience but I also want to get licensed so I can supervise in the future or continue clinical work in the future if I wish to do so. In my state, I can only count so many "other" non-clinical hours towards licensure. So if my effort was supposed to be substantial research effort, I wouldn't really have had clinical hours for licensure I needed.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I did a two year post doc for the research experience but I also want to get licensed so I can supervise in the future or continue clinical work in the future if I wish to do so. In my state, I can only count so many "other" non-clinical hours towards licensure. So if my effort was supposed to be substantial research effort, I wouldn't really have had clinical hours for licensure I needed.

Makes sense. Although I still hate the whole cheap labor thing.
To add to my previous post, I was actually able to get the postdoc a bit more money than the MA people after I advocated for them to get it. I believe that we have to advocate for each other more, too.

 

[Ollie123]

I did a two year post doc for the research experience but I also want to get licensed so I can supervise in the future or continue clinical work in the future if I wish to do so. In my state, I can only count so many "other" non-clinical hours towards licensure. So if my effort was supposed to be substantial research effort, I wouldn't really have had clinical hours for licensure I needed.

For research post-docs I think it makes perfect sense. The main reasons to do one are to develop a new skill you desire and/or to improve your CV. Neither of those is likely to happen to a significant degree over the course of one year (can you imagine trying to learn fMRI well enough to do it independently over one year? computational modeling?). Particularly after coming off internship year and joining a new research group, which for most involves an enormous lull in productivity (certainly had a majorly negative impact on mine). Similarly, if we're talking specialty clinical training that requires significant new learning - makes perfect sense.

Two year generalist purely clinical "same-ole generic outpatient psychotherapy" post-doc....yeah, don't see the point of two years. Or frankly even one year in most cases.

So basically...it should be about training in something new that the person really wants and hasn't gotten. It should not just be about spinning the wheel doing more of the same for the sake of "getting hours." Sadly, that often seems to be the case. In my mind, additional desirable training seems an okay deal in exchange for a mid 40's salary + benefits for another 1-2 years. Some of the ridiculous "unpaid post-doc" stuff going on in is unacceptable under any circumstance.

 

[CheetahGirl]

What is up with the two year postdocs?

I'll be starting a 2-year postdoc.

We get protected research time. So they will pay me to write (Ok - so not the big buck$ yet). All day, for 1.5 days/week. The rest is clinical work...perfecting my expertise, with their mentorship. And guess what I'm writing about? That clinical work. (Somewhat the prelude to a dream job.)

By the time it is over, they want me to have my own funded study, and continue working with them. And I will be licensed within two-years, and can remain there as clinical faculty, if I remain productive and spend that 1.5 days wisely, getting the research out. (Gladly.)

This is my simplistic understanding of what I am about to embark upon.


To the OP, where is your heart? I have no idea about the contract negotiations, yet. But sounds like you want to move past that 'prelude to the dream job' stage, and get on with it. Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[ClinicalABA]

I see a lot of talk here about how staying or leaving the post-doc early will impact you. I encourage you to consider how it will impact the agency as well. You've made a commitment, presumably with some sort of contract (formal or just an understanding). Regardless of whether or not you are losing a potential reference (e.g. burning bridges), you may be greatly inconveniencing your agency and colleagues (remember, a "burnt bridge" affects people on both side of the river!). Setting up, getting administrative approval for, and implementing an internship takes a lot of work. Securing funding (even if meager) can be difficult, and internships often run at a loss. Hiring and training new interns takes a lot of (unbillable) time, and it may not be possible to fill your slot for just one year.

Ultimately, the internship should be about the training experience offered to the student. If the program was in any way deceitful or dishonest about the position and has not been amenable to addressing this, then you need to do what you need to do. However, don't discount how you decision may negatively impact OTHERS. This includes future interns. I can imagine a supervisor going to the agency admin, perhaps to advocate for higher stipend, better benefits, maybe even more positions, and the admin saying "why? So they can just leave half way through their commitment?" Make your decision after consideration of how it impacts everyone involved. Obviously, you should prioritize your own needs, but ignore the needs of others. Part of the post-doc should be learning how to be a better PROFESSIONAL- not just a better psychologist.

Best of luck with this difficult decision.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Re: The stipend... are post-doc stipends (formal government grant-funded ones) taxed or not? I've heard both.

Also, keep in mind, that you are unlikely to start a post doc and get a substantial number of publications out of it in one year.

 

[Ollie123]

Re: The stipend... are post-doc stipends (formal government grant-funded ones) taxed or not? I've heard both.

Also, keep in mind, that you are unlikely to start a post doc and get a substantial number of publications out of it in one year.

It's complicated. Generally speaking...if an R grant, tax will be taken out and you are a regular employee. If an F or T grant...tax will not be taken out. Employer contributions may count as "income" in the latter case. Tax must be paid either way as it is income (just like stipends)...it's just a question of whether it is deducted.

All of this likely depends on how the institution sets it up.

 

[CheetahGirl]

My fellowship is at a VA MIRECC. It is my understanding that it is fully taxed, with benefits (health insurance, dental, vacation time, etc.), from reading others' posts about VA employment and hanging out at our HR, should have transferable qualities (meaning, my start date at the VA was when I was an intern, but i'm now moving up the pay grades). Others may know better b/c I have not signed my contact yet. I only know what the salary is (it's decent...over double what internship was). I believe 2nd year's salary can be more (maybe if I'm co-pi on more grants? I dunno exactly.) I'm already co-investigator on the grants/interventions i'm currently implementing...and I'm technically making more now per hourly rate without the formal fellowship, but I love the AMC affiliated with our VA, so super-excited about the clinical appointment there. (I was an extern at the same AMC and have received all of my past clinical research from there b/c it was where I was a clinical research coordinator prior to doctoral training).

Ollie, if you read this: How do you know/learn about your grant status (ie, Rs, Fs, Ts)? I figured I'd learn about them all eventually and it seems like that time is now. So far, I have folks helping me along, so I'm basically going where they tell me to go and doing what they want me to do b/c I'm fully vested in the clinical work and we're getting great feedback from our interventions, so hoping to get more funding once the pilot data is submitted.

Re: The stipend... are post-doc stipends (formal government grant-funded ones) taxed or not? I've heard both.

Also, keep in mind, that you are unlikely to start a post doc and get a substantial number of publications out of it in one year.

 

[Ollie123]

Ollie, if you read this: How do you know/learn about your grant status (ie, Rs, Fs, Ts)? I figured I'd learn about them all eventually and it seems like that time is now. So far, I have folks helping me along, so I'm basically going where they tell me to go and doing what they want me to do b/c I'm fully vested in the clinical work and we're getting great feedback from our interventions, so hoping to get more funding once the pilot data is submitted.

Are you asking how you learn about where the funding comes from for your position? That's a question for your training director/PI, but in a VA its most likely none of the above. If you are asking how you generally learn about grant writing and grant mechanisms, PM me and I can send you more book recommendations than you could ever read, of which most will now be somewhat dated and/or not that helpful (spellcheck! Don't take feedback personally! Come up with interesting ideas! Most writing books seem to be full of generic platitudes). I maintain the best (truthfully...only) way to learn is reviewing the unholy mess that is the NIH website/application manuals and living/breathing the grants game with strong mentors who have a good track record of securing funding.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Thanks, @Ollie123. I'll learn more first, and then send you a PM with specific cluelessness.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Thanks, @Ollie123 . Can I shoot you a PM?

 

[Ollie123]

Thanks, @Ollie123 . Can I shoot you a PM?

Of course!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My fellowship is at a VA MIRECC. It is my understanding that it is fully taxed, with benefits (health insurance, dental, vacation time, etc.), from reading others' posts about VA employment and hanging out at our HR, should have transferable qualities (meaning, my start date at the VA was when I was an intern, but i'm now moving up the pay grades). Others may know better b/c I have not signed my contact yet. I only know what the salary is (it's decent...over double what internship was). I believe 2nd year's salary can be more (maybe if I'm co-pi on more grants? I dunno exactly.) I'm already co-investigator on the grants/interventions i'm currently implementing...and I'm technically making more now per hourly rate without the formal fellowship, but I love the AMC affiliated with our VA, so super-excited about the clinical appointment there. (I was an extern at the same AMC and have received all of my past clinical research from there b/c it was where I was a clinical research coordinator prior to doctoral training).

Ollie, if you read this: How do you know/learn about your grant status (ie, Rs, Fs, Ts)? I figured I'd learn about them all eventually and it seems like that time is now. So far, I have folks helping me along, so I'm basically going where they tell me to go and doing what they want me to do b/c I'm fully vested in the clinical work and we're getting great feedback from our interventions, so hoping to get more funding once the pilot data is submitted.

Short answer--it depends. In general and technically, yeah, both internship and postdoc time should count/transfer...but not with respect to everything. The time on both internship and postdoc (assuming you're a VA employee rather than a contractor for the latter, which at a MIRECC, I'd imagine would be the case) should count toward your leave accumulation rates. That is, if you take a VA job after internship and fellowship, and your fellowship is 2 years, you'll immediately start earning 6 hours of AL per pay period rather than the initial 4. This all happened automatically for me, but keep an eye on it to be sure.

Getting leave to transfer can be trickier. For me, from fellowship to employment, this was easy--it all just moved on its own based on the paperwork I filled out when transferring jobs and duty stations. However, my internship sick leave didn't transfer to fellowship, and I opted to just have my AL for that year paid out. It's my understanding that internship leave can transfer to fellowship, but you may need to stay on HR about it, as I don't think it's something they're used to doing. The ease/feasibility of this may also depend on the length of time that passes between end of internship and start of fellowship.

Neither internship or postdoc will count toward your retirement vesting, as you won't be contributing to FERS. Unless this has changed recently.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Thank you for this, @AcronymAllergy! I appreciate your time and insight.

 

[WisNeuro]

Neither internship or postdoc will count toward your retirement vesting, as you won't be contributing to FERS. Unless this has changed recently.

I had a postdoc at my old place move on to become faculty, it was still the same at that point, and I haven't heard about any changes to that in the past year. I have heard rumblings about increasing employee contribution to pensions again, though, so get in on the old pension contribution rate while you can!

 

[restingbeachface]

Also, keep in mind, that you are unlikely to start a post doc and get a substantial number of publications out of it in one year.

I'm still trying to very carefully consider my decision and I understand that this will not only affect me, but my institution, but it is also my career I have to consider. For those in non-VA post docs, does it make sense to stay in a two year post doc if you are spending the whole two years doing clinical work? That is what I'm trying to figure out. I get that moving on may not get me substantial pubs but I'm less interested in pumping out a million publications than I am being able to establish a research area and building myself professionally (which I get comes also through pubs), but I am not able to do where I'm at anyway. In a year, no matter what I wouldn't be able to get a substantial amount of publications whether I decide to stay or not so I'm just trying to figure out what is the better decision. Thanks for the advice all!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm still trying to very carefully consider my decision and I understand that this will not only affect me, but my institution, but it is also my career I have to consider. For those in non-VA post docs, does it make sense to stay in a two year post doc if you are spending the whole two years doing clinical work? That is what I'm trying to figure out. I get that moving on may not get me substantial pubs but I'm less interested in pumping out a million publications than I am being able to establish a research area and building myself professionally (which I get comes also through pubs), but I am not able to do where I'm at anyway. In a year, no matter what I wouldn't be able to get a substantial amount of publications whether I decide to stay or not so I'm just trying to figure out what is the better decision. Thanks for the advice all!

I did a VA postdoc myself, but RE: the bolded portion, my thought would be no. Unless the postdoc is in an area of specialty expertise where a two-year fellowship has been established as the norm, and/or you feel that both years are going to garner you supervised experience with conditions, settings, and/or populations with which you would like to work in the future but do not yet feel competent to practice, my opinion is that one year should suffice.

 

[cara susanna]

What is up with the two year postdocs? I get why we do this for a specialty like neuro but for anything else is it just a way of getting one more year of cheap labor? We already spend longer in training than anyone else. We have way more value than we realize IMO and we don't fight for it enough. I hired postdocs and post MAs and our company paid them the same. Which ones do you think were worth more?

Research post docs are two years so you get enough clinical hours for licensure (since you have less direct service time in a week, it takes longer).

Edit: Sorry, I'm on my phone and didn't see the responses after your post until after I'd posted. Whoops!