LECOM attrition?

[sabsaf123]

Hey all,

I was recently accepted at LECOM-B. It seems like a great school with high board pass rates, but their website does not seem to mention the attrition rate anywhere. Most schools list the attrition rate or the number of students that graduate in 4 years. Does LECOM have a high dropout rate? Can anyone from the school help fill me in? Thanks.

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[ortnakas]

I don't know about LECOM-B or LECOM-E.

My first year class at LECOM-SH ended first year with 115 and started second year with 111; we lost 4 (3 are repeating first year, 1 chose to do something else) and inherited 1 from the class above us. I think the class above me had similar numbers.

 

[jordansetron]

LECOM-B lost ~5 this year, but one of those was a transfer to Erie. I think

 

[sabsaf123]

LECOM-B lost ~5 this year, but one of those was a transfer to Erie. I think

Just curious..but how do you know that? I can't seem to find official stats.

 

[cabinbuilder]

LECOM is a business. They lose money every time someone leaves. They do their best to get people through. They are not out to fail people but want to create good doctors too.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

LECOM from what I understand has arguably one of the smallest drop out rates of all DO schools.

 

[hallowmann]

Just curious..but how do you know that? I can't seem to find official stats.

We know this because we are students and know when someone is no longer with us.

My class has lost ~7% in 2.5 yrs. Half are gone (decided they didn't want med school, failed out, etc.) and the other half are either taking a break to think about it or in the class below us and/or at other campuses. I imagine by the end of 4 yrs we'll have lost 8-9% in total (again either gone or in a later class), and at least >95% will complete the degree in 4-6 yrs.

Attrition is not particularly high at LECOM. It's probably average for DO schools or a little less. AACOM used to publish attrition data, schools were assigned numbers so not super helpful, but you can get an idea of DO attrition based on that.

No place has "official" stats, as the method and publication of that info are not required by COCA. A handful of schools might claim a specific graduation/attrition rate, but it's not regulated, so it's completely up to them who they choose to count in their calculations.

 

[jordansetron]

Just curious..but how do you know that? I can't seem to find official stats.

Pretty much what @hallowmann said

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

Hey all,

I was recently accepted at LECOM-B. It seems like a great school with high board pass rates, but their website does not seem to mention the attrition rate anywhere. Most schools list the attrition rate or the number of students that graduate in 4 years. Does LECOM have a high dropout rate? Can anyone from the school help fill me in? Thanks.

u got into a medical school. this will most likely be the only opprotunity you have. just go.

that or go get a Doctorate of Janitorial Practice. I hear they have independent practice rights in all 50 states.

 

[asdf123g]

This isn't directed at LECOM per se but for students who decided "they didnt want to be in medschool" how common is it because they couldn't keep up with classes or were borderline failing. Obviously this is case dependent but is this common?

 

[ortnakas]

This isn't directed at LECOM per se but for students who decided "they didnt want to be in medschool" how common is it because they couldn't keep up with classes or were borderline failing. Obviously this is case dependent but is this common?

I don't think you're going to get a solid answer, from students at any school. Partly because it probably would just be speculation, but mostly because this scenario is very rare, enough so to make those students identifiable to many, which means answering your question would be a pretty big violation of a classmate's privacy.

 

[hallowmann]

This isn't directed at LECOM per se but for students who decided "they didnt want to be in medschool" how common is it because they couldn't keep up with classes or were borderline failing. Obviously this is case dependent but is this common?

ortnakas is right so I'll give you my vague answer: its usually mostly people who didn't do well, but its unclear which came first and its also true there are others that were doing quite well and just realized it wasn't for them.

I have friends that went through this outside of my school, so maybe I'll elaborate a bit more. They got into medical school and decided to start simply because they couldn't think of what else to do. They were pushed in some way by family or by an earlier life goal that they never reevaluated. When faced with the actual volume or length of effort/work they must put in, they either became miserable or simply stopped working, which you can't do in med school. I know a couple people that were disciplined enough to finish (at very good MD schools no less) only to not attend residency and do something else with their lives

You can imagine that these individuals are above (or well above) average intelligence, have a powerful drive, and subsequently after leaving medical school and finding what they are truly passionate about (or simply what they can excel at and be content with) they are very successful. One started his own company, another become an early member of another start-up, another became a teacher and loves it. These are just a few.

 

[Promethean]

MS-I, LECOM Erie

We lost at least 3-4, maybe more people during our first few days of our first term. At least a couple of those were people who decided, at that late hour, that med school wasn't actually what they wanted in life, for whatever reason. I don't know of any true losses since. We had a person who switched campuses, I think. I don't know the reason.

I know that among the MS-IIs, we have at least one colleague who is vocal about having struggled first year such that she needed to remediate significantly. We also started the year with a very few folks who were remediating the whole year.

It isn't just a matter of LECOM being a business and not wanting to lose the tuition. Heck, they have me in a 3 year program where they are going to lose a whole year's worth of tuition, because that serves their mission to produce more primary care doctors. They are strict, but they do care about student outcomes and the future of the profession. They do appreciate the sacrifices that it takes to get to this point, and faculty will go out of their way to help those who help themselves. They aren't going to babysit you, or carry anyone to the graduation stage. You have to be willing to go with the flow and do all that they expect of you. You have to do it their way. But if you do put forth that effort, they won't let you fall through the cracks.

I've butted heads with faculty on occasion, and I am opinionated and loud-mouthed, and those aren't traits that are rewarded here, let me tell you. I've had to practice a lot of discretion and choosing my battles very wisely. But I am still very pleased to have ended up in this seat, and to have this opportunity. I've even accepted that some of the parts I like least really are beneficial to me in the long run.

 

[Humble Sloth]

This isn't directed at LECOM per se but for students who decided "they didnt want to be in medschool" how common is it because they couldn't keep up with classes or were borderline failing. Obviously this is case dependent but is this common?

A lot of the med school dropouts i know got out because they realized it wasn't for them and saw it as a waste of time. And I mean to a large extent I see family medicine (PCP) to be pretty useless. I mean all diagnoses can be done by computer or looked up on the internet. Most of the precieved value in medicine today comes from doing research into creating new diagnostic tests or surgery which make up a minority of MD positions.

 

[Derivations]

A lot of the med school dropouts i know got out because they realized it wasn't for them and saw it as a waste of time. And I mean to a large extent I see family medicine (PCP) to be pretty useless. I mean all diagnoses can be done by computer or looked up on the internet. Most of the precieved value in medicine today comes from doing research into creating new diagnostic tests or surgery which make up a minority of MD positions.

Says the pharm student

 

[Humble Sloth]

Says the pharm student

Nice ad hominem. Maybe try attacking the idea instead of the person.

 

[IslandStyle808]

A lot of the med school dropouts i know got out because they realized it wasn't for them and saw it as a waste of time. And I mean to a large extent I see family medicine (PCP) to be pretty useless. I mean all diagnoses can be done by computer or looked up on the internet. Most of the precieved value in medicine today comes from doing research into creating new diagnostic tests or surgery which make up a minority of MD positions.

No not all of it can (more specifically referring to untrained professionals) and even then this is can be a dangerous mind set. Think of it this way. One could just as well say the same about a pharmacist's job, but they do far more than just dispense medication.

 

[Humble Sloth]

No not all of it can (more specifically referring to untrained professionals) and even then this is can be a dangerous mind set. Think of it this way. One could just as well say the same about a pharmacist's job, but they do far more than just dispense medication.

No, I think 100% that a pharmacist's job can also be done by a computer. In some cases entities have robotic distribution of medicine.

 

[IslandStyle808]

No, I think 100% that a pharmacist's job can also be done by a computer. In some cases entities have robotic distribution of medicine.

Computers have not yet come to a point where they can handle a patient with high effectiveness. Computers would work perfectly if they had all the symptoms and clues to diagnosis the person, but this is not the case most of the time. There are a good amount of times that patients have one chief complaint and this is what doctors have to work with. Doctors ask questions to patients further to get clues that may not be obvious with a routine physical exam. Then you also have patients who lie or point out issues that have nothing to do with the diagnosis. There are these nuances that only people can pick up, but machines cannot. There are also people who have adverse reactions to medications and need a specialized treatment plan, which a pharmacist is a part of in hospitals.

This is important to realize as you keep studying pharmacy. Again, there is that "human factor" that people are privy too, but computers and other machines are not.

 

[Humble Sloth]

Computers have not yet come to a point where they can handle a patient with high effectiveness. Computers would work perfectly if they had all the symptoms and clues to diagnosis the person, but this is not the case most of the time. There are a good amount of times that patients have one chief complaint and this is what doctors have to work with. Doctors ask questions to patients further to get clues that may not be obvious with a routine physical exam. Then you also have patients who lie or point out issues that have nothing to do with the diagnosis. There are these nuances that only people can pick up, but machines cannot. There are also people who have adverse reactions to medications and need a specialized treatment plan, which a pharmacist is a part of in hospitals.

This is important to realize as you keep studying pharmacy. Again, there is that "human factor" that people are privy too, but computers and other machines are not.

"Then you also have patients who lie or point out issues that have nothing to do with the diagnosis."

I agree this is the primary reason that doctors and pharmacists are still needed. A computer system could easily be tricked into disposing opiates as there is no objective diagnostic tool for seeing pain.

I disagree with "Doctors ask questions to patients further to get clues that may not be obvious with a routine physical exam." because a computer could be easily programmed to ask hundreds of more questions than a doctor could ask.

 

[IslandStyle808]

"Then you also have patients who lie or point out issues that have nothing to do with the diagnosis."

I agree this is the primary reason that doctors and pharmacists are still needed. A computer system could easily be tricked into disposing opiates as there is no objective diagnostic tool for seeing pain.

I disagree with "Doctors ask questions to patients further to get clues that may not be obvious with a routine physical exam." because a computer could be easily programmed to ask hundreds of more questions than a doctor could ask.

What I meant by the second part was that there is always a subtleness when asking questions and getting answers. A patient may give answers like a short story and a doctor will have to navigate that story and focus on certain aspects, then ask questions based on them. The patient could even go off on a tangent and the physician will have to weed out the unimportant parts. If this was left to a machine, more questions would be asked, true, but would take a lot more time to ask the questions and it would also be seeing all information as equally relevant (so it could increase the list of diagnoses).

I could definitely see computers becoming more integral part of healthcare, but I don't think they would replace the vast majority of what physicians or even pharmacists do currently.

 

[ortnakas]

How did this change from med school attrition to family medicine vs. pharmacy vs. computers?

 

[Rekt]

How did this change from med school attrition to family medicine vs. pharmacy vs. computers?

Yeah for reals, we should be talking about Clinton and Trump by now.

 

[MrChance2]

This isn't directed at LECOM per se but for students who decided "they didnt want to be in medschool" how common is it because they couldn't keep up with classes or were borderline failing. Obviously this is case dependent but is this common?

Its a chicken or an egg question. Medical school is a lot of work and gives a type of return that is not optimal for some people. If people lose interest in becoming a doctor it is easy to fall behind. Also if people come to medical school wanting to be a dermatologist and get bottom 10% of the class for their first few tests they may reconsider. The people I know that left for good seemed like they never really wanted to be there in the first place or were expecting something different, its tough to study the 8-12 hours a day that it takes to do well feeling that way. I've never heard of anyone abandoning their lifelong dream of becoming a primary care doctor due to academic difficulty, it just takes an extra year or 2 for them.

*this is all in regard to american medical schools. The Caribbean will obviously will screw you.

 

[hallowmann]

A lot of the med school dropouts i know got out because they realized it wasn't for them and saw it as a waste of time. And I mean to a large extent I see family medicine (PCP) to be pretty useless. I mean all diagnoses can be done by computer or looked up on the internet. Most of the precieved value in medicine today comes from doing research into creating new diagnostic tests or surgery which make up a minority of MD positions.

This post is frustrating on so many levels and simplifies and belittles the work that physicians do to such an extent, its almost laughable.

Medicine is not solely formulaic (at least good medicine is not), and there is so much subjectivity to answering and interpreting questions/answers and evaluating that we are decades (at least 30 yrs) and probably practically a century away from it from an AI and machine learning standpoint. Physicians aren't going to be replaced by machines in our lifetime. Certain aspects of the jobs maybe, but not the work of a physician, even a PCP.

I mean all you need to look at to demonstrate that is the way "auto-reads" of ECGs and CXRs actually come out, i.e. ridiculous half the time. Radiology and Pathology, the 2 medicine careers most possibly the "easiest" to be replaced by machines (via advances in computer vision) are not even close, despite what you may read about pigeons IDing obvious CA on slides.

My source for this by the way is from someone in my immediate family working at the forefront of biomedical machine learning at top tech and med collaboration universities. They're working on it, but they're not even close from even a basic task standpoint.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yeah for reals, we should be talking about Clinton and Trump by now.

family medicine vs. pharmacy vs. computers. vs. Clinton vs. Trump.

Let's make this happen people!

 

[ksmustang]

A lot of the med school dropouts i know got out because they realized it wasn't for them and saw it as a waste of time. And I mean to a large extent I see family medicine (PCP) to be pretty useless. I mean all diagnoses can be done by computer or looked up on the internet. Most of the precieved value in medicine today comes from doing research into creating new diagnostic tests or surgery which make up a minority of MD positions.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Humble Sloth]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

What an incredibly detailed, fact based, well referenced, cerebral, well thought out and specific response to my idea! A solid response! A true future doctor! Please grace this peasant with more of your kingly knowledge!

 

[Promethean]

What an incredibly detailed, fact based, well referenced, cerebral, well thought out and specific response to my idea! A solid response! A true future doctor! Please grace this peasant with more of your kingly knowledge!

Not every mental eructation deserves a thoughtful response.

 

[ksmustang]

What an incredibly detailed, fact based, well referenced, cerebral, well thought out and specific response to my idea! A solid response! A true future doctor! Please grace this peasant with more of your kingly knowledge!

I don't really like flame wars on forums, so I will avoid continuing any personal ad hominem, or real fallacious arguments based on authority, that is, my being a medical student and you being a pharmacy student. What I will say is you are not trained, nor licensed, at any point in your career path, to diagnose, or manage ailments and for that reason your opinion that a PCP is the same as a google search is based on no merit whatsoever. Therefore... you have no idea what you are talking about. We can also play a game, where I give you a list of symptoms and you have to diagnose it, then give a prognosis and treatment plan, you can use any set of resources, including the internet at your disposal. Want to play?

 

[Humble Sloth]

I don't really like flame wars on forums, so I will avoid continuing any personal ad hominem, or real fallacious arguments based on authority, that is, my being a medical student and you being a pharmacy student. What I will say is you are not trained, nor licensed, at any point in your career path, to diagnose, or manage ailments and for that reason your opinion that a PCP is the same as a google search is based on no merit whatsoever. Therefore... you have no idea what you are talking about. We can also play a game, where I give you a list of symptoms and you have to diagnose it, then give a prognosis and treatment plan, you can use any set of resources, including the internet at your disposal. Want to play?

I don't really mean Google search. I mean a group of a hundred well ranked and referenced family medicine MD's coming together to work with programmers to create an advanced and first of its kind program that uses diagnostic test results and patient answers to questions to create a diagnosis. I am not saying that pharmacist's job could not be replaced in the same way as I think it could also. The value that a pharmacist adds is not in verifying prescriptions but rather guarding addictive drugs from entrepreneurial street drug dealers and drug abusers. There is a reason family medicine is in low demand and low financial compensation. It is because most medical students realize that family medicine like psychiatry is of little real value to society and is a very soft specialty.

 

[anktheonc]

I don't really mean Google search. I mean a group of a hundred well ranked and referenced family medicine MD's coming together to work with programmers to create an advanced and first of its kind program that uses diagnostic test results and patient answers to questions to create a diagnosis. I am not saying that pharmacist's job could not be replaced in the same way as I think it could also. The value that a pharmacist adds is not in verifying prescriptions but rather guarding addictive drugs from entrepreneurial street drug dealers and drug abusers. There is a reason family medicine is in low demand and low financial compensation. It is because most medical students realize that family medicine like psychiatry is of little real value to society and is a very soft specialty.

........

 

[ortnakas]

A) There's a huge demand for family med practitioners right now. The stigma against them is mostly on SDN.
B) Computers can't do physical exams.

 

[Promethean]

I don't really mean Google search. I mean a group of a hundred well ranked and referenced family medicine MD's coming together to work with programmers to create an advanced and first of its kind program that uses diagnostic test results and patient answers to questions to create a diagnosis. I am not saying that pharmacist's job could not be replaced in the same way as I think it could also. The value that a pharmacist adds is not in verifying prescriptions but rather guarding addictive drugs from entrepreneurial street drug dealers and drug abusers. There is a reason family medicine is in low demand and low financial compensation. It is because most medical students realize that family medicine like psychiatry is of little real value to society and is a very soft specialty.

You have to be a troll.

 

[hallowmann]

...There is a reason family medicine is in low demand and low financial compensation. It is because most medical students realize that family medicine like psychiatry is of little real value to society and is a very soft specialty.

Wow, no way you are real. Either you have no idea about how health reimbursement is defined/decided upon in this country and are completely oblivious to the major aspects of healthcare in society... or you're a troll.

 

[Humble Sloth]

A) There's a huge demand for family med practitioners right now. The stigma against them is mostly on SDN.
B) Computers can't do physical exams.

There has been a huge demand for family med for at least 20 years. That is because no one wants to go into it because of the poor pay and as i mentioned, the perceived uselessness of the specialty.

 

[Promethean]

There has been a huge demand for family med for at least 20 years. That is because no one wants to go into it because of the poor pay and as i mentioned, the perceived uselessness of the specialty.

I don't hit that ignore button on a lot of people, but you've earned it. Good luck in all your future endeavors.

 

[67552931811]

There has been a huge demand for family med for at least 20 years. That is because no one wants to go into it because of the poor pay and as i mentioned, the perceived uselessness of the specialty.

This post is all too ironic coming from a future pharmacist. You clearly don't comprehend many facets on how medicine is run and where it's going (i.e. emphasis on primary care doctors and building your primary care doctor base so you can refer within your system). I mean, seriously, a future pharmacist saying any field in medicine is "perceived uselessness" is downright hilarious!

 

[Cocobutteran]

Hah @Humble Sloth

Couldn't get into med school so he/she went the Pharm route. Bitter about not getting into med school and therefore decides to spew useless nonsense on SDN... pathetic I must say.

 

[Humble Sloth]

This post is all too ironic coming from a future pharmacist. You clearly don't comprehend many facets on how medicine is run and where it's going (i.e. emphasis on primary care doctors and building your primary care doctor base so you can refer within your system). I mean, seriously, a future pharmacist saying any field in medicine is "perceived uselessness" is downright hilarious!

The emphasis

Hah @Humble Sloth

Couldn't get into med school so he/she went the Pharm route. Bitter about not getting into med school and therefore decides to spew useless nonsense on SDN... pathetic I must say.

Yes! Show case your intelligence with insults. I'm very impressed by your show of class and superior intellect.

 

[Humble Sloth]

This post is all too ironic coming from a future pharmacist. You clearly don't comprehend many facets on how medicine is run and where it's going (i.e. emphasis on primary care doctors and building your primary care doctor base so you can refer within your system). I mean, seriously, a future pharmacist saying any field in medicine is "perceived uselessness" is downright hilarious!

Primary care MDs are getting replaced left and right by less cost Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants in rural areas. You don't see this happen to ortho surgeon and radiologists in rural areas. It's easy to wonder why.

 

[hallowmann]

:troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[IslandStyle808]

Primary care MDs are getting replaced left and right by less cost Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants in rural areas. You don't see this happen to ortho surgeon and radiologists in rural areas. It's easy to wonder why.

Nope.

Many go to other specialities include sub-surgical and sub-medical specialities (they go where the money goes)
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/29/5/887/F2.expansion.html

Then here is an article showing the need for dermatology PAs (due to low turn of physicians in dermatology residency, we all know why they keep the residency numbers low)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989822/

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

Primary care MDs are getting replaced left and right by less cost Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants in rural areas. You don't see this happen to ortho surgeon and radiologists in rural areas. It's easy to wonder why.

missed a few steps with those assumptions.. Why are there more NPs and PAs? because there aren't enough PCPs. NPs and PAs have to practice under a medical license, you know, a doctor :rollseyes: plus NPs and PAs are (usually) horrible at understanding or ordering correct lab work (beyond the basic Chem, CBC, and PT.. Its a daily frustration.. Rural radiologists are nearly extinct. Tele services allow rads to read X-rays at home the their iPads. ortho surgeon? a rural orthosurgeon has three main procedures.. knee, hip, and occasional diabetic foot or toe. Rural medicine isn't fancy nor is it lucrative, but you are educating and helping your community while elevating the quality of life for thousands in the area.. It means you're not an egotistical dingus who wants prestige to fill the lack of true character..

 

[jqueb29]

Primary care MDs are getting replaced left and right by less cost Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants in rural areas. You don't see this happen to ortho surgeon and radiologists in rural areas. It's easy to wonder why.

As said above, it's largely because there just aren't enough PCP's. Hence why you see policies such as the concept of "assistant physician" for those who get their MD but don't get accepted into a residency. As also said above, NPs and PAs are almost always a terrible substitute for the real thing. They have things they're good at, but being a replacement physician definitely is not one of them.

 

[ksmustang]

There is a reason family medicine is in low demand and low financial compensation. It is because most medical students realize that family medicine like psychiatry is of little real value to society and is a very soft specialty.

...just an unreal level of ignorance. Also, again not to use an authoritarian fallacy, but in my former life, I wrote programs. Algorithmic thinking =/= heuristic thinking and right now, computers aren't very good at the latter, at least compared to people; and in medicine, while algorithms are certainly great for dx, lack of heuristics will end poorly for patient tx.

While you get to looking up basic problem solving theory, I suggest reading this. Not meant as an insult, but you may really want to be more objectively self-analytical before your speak/type your mind in the future. Ask yourself, "how much of this do I really understand?"

To put us back on track: OP, don't worry about drop rates. Any school you attend will have a handful of people not make it for whatever reason. Do your work and you will be fine. Best of luck.

This will be my last post in this thread.

 

[Humble Sloth]

...just an unreal level of ignorance. Also, again not to use an authoritarian fallacy, but in my former life, I wrote programs. Algorithmic thinking =/= heuristic thinking and right now, computers aren't very good at the latter, at least compared to people; and in medicine, while algorithms are certainly great for dx, lack of heuristics will end poorly for patient tx.

While you get to looking up basic problem solving theory, I suggest reading this. Not meant as an insult, but you may really want to be more objectively self-analytical before your speak/type your mind in the future. Ask yourself, "how much of this do I really understand?"

To put us back on track: OP, don't worry about drop rates. Any school you attend will have a handful of people not make it for whatever reason. Do your work and you will be fine. Best of luck.

This will be my last post in this thread.

This issue seemed to elicited a very emotional response from you. Emphatic respornses are the weathervane of truth. Thank you for reaffirming my sentiment.

 

[SouthParkStudio]

I have no skin in the game, but I was wondering if anyone has any idea about the depression or attempted suicide rate. Personally I think that is very important to find out a general idea before anyone matriculates.

 

[Dharma]

A lot of the med school dropouts i know got out because they realized it wasn't for them and saw it as a waste of time. And I mean to a large extent I see family medicine (PCP) to be pretty useless. I mean all diagnoses can be done by computer or looked up on the internet. Most of the precieved value in medicine today comes from doing research into creating new diagnostic tests or surgery which make up a minority of MD positions.

Spend a couple of months rotating through a family medicine clinic done right and then come back to drop your opinions. Folks without experience do not know that which they do not know.

EDIT: did anyone else notice his tangential thoughts here? Hmm...

 

[IslandStyle808]

Spend a couple of months rotating through a family medicine clinic done right and then come back to drop your opinions. Folks without experience do not know that which they do not know.

EDIT: did anyone else notice his tangential thoughts here? Hmm...

He is a pharmacy student, but believes most of his job can be done by computers. Kind of left me floored.