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Let's cut the nonsense...

Discussion in 'Optometry' started by SaveYourself, Dec 19, 2008.

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  1. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    I love all of the posts of OD's constantly defending the profession, rationalizing their career choice and pointing out all of the faults in other professions. If it was that great, why all of defense?

    The funny thing is that the profession ends up in the top 10 each year in some "best jobs" ranking. The reason? MONEY.

    So you make a decent living. How's your debt? I bet it's six figures. How's your credit with six figure student loan debt? I bet it's harder to get loans than you expected. All of a sudden, that "great pay" is shrinking pretty fast.

    Another reason it's a "top 10" are the hours. Oh yes, the great hours. Working Saturday and Sundays and until 7:30-8 p.m. at night are great hours. Compared to what? Night shift? How about working in the mall, or Lenscrafters, or Wall Mart or CostCo? WALL MART? Are you kidding me!? You work at Wall Mart on a Sunday and call yourself a doctor? Wow.

    It's so sad that people constantly defend the profession citing it makes a good living. Other professions make more money with WAY less training, have better benefits and job security. A lot of bright eyed students who can't get into med school or don't think they'd hack it if they got into med school go into optometry thinking they'll get all of the benefits without the headache. WRONG. Well, If you want to be a glorified tech who calls themselves doctor, then fine. Why in god's name would you spend 8 years getting a degree that only allows you to do eye exams when for only a few more years, you could get a degree that allows you to do so much more (research, teach, consult, etc.) The answer? They can't for some reason, no matter what they say. The posts will stream in citing GPA and MCAT scores that are top notch and the person chose optometry?! Bad choice. Trying to convince people that you'd rather work in the mall until 7-8 p.m. on Saturdays and Sundays and be talked down to by $8 / hr retail associates instead of having your own tech staff, work until 4:30 with weekends off and do a wide variety of proceedures and have options, better pay and RESPECT is embarassing. It's just plain embarassing.

    Don't give me that crap about "wanting to help people". Most of your patients are only coming to you becuase they have to, because their Rx expired. Half of the time they're really ticked off about it. They are not coming to your for your expertise, they are coming for a refill. I also want to know what we are doctors of? Glasses? Contacts? You can teach a 10 year old how to refract and follow the red dot on a JCC. Oh, so it must be the diagnosis and management of ocular disease. Pretty tough when many OD's don't dilate, don't have hospital privleges, aren't allowed on medical plans and can't treat certain diseases in some states.

    Realize that if you are an optometry student or prospective optometry student, the AOA IS LYING TO YOU. The optometric colleges that want your tuition ARE LYING TO YOU. Filling your head with grandiose tales of ocular disease management and a wide variety of procedures such as punctal occlusion, anterior stromal puncture, use of the Algerbrush / FB removal, topical and oral Rx's and the like. It is a complete and total lie to GET YOUR MONEY. The market is so saturated with OD's and what is their solution to protect you? 3 MORE OPTOMETRY SCHOOLS! That's right, crank out more OD's in an already supersaturated and cutthroat industry. How else would they sell it?

    Imagine if they told you what it would really be like on the advertisement. " 4 years undergraduate study, 4 years optometric study, optional 1 year residency, huge student loan debt, use very little of what you learn, most likely work weekends at Wall Mart, Costco, Lenscrafters or even tech (yes, I said tech) for an Ophthalmologist! You also will have the option of opening your own practice, get in even more debt and compete with: Lenscrafters, Pearlevision, Wallmart, CostCo, Sears, ForEyes, Eyemasters, America's Best and fail to compete with 13.99 / box CL prices. "

    The above is not a lie and anyone who tells you it is not like that is LYING to you. It is the truth and we haven't even begun to talk about your restriction from medical plans, insurance company control and other health professionals.

    People will attack me saying I am negative, bitter and in a bad setting. I am in, what is considered to be, a great setting (six figures, great benefits, pension, constant patient stream), and am simply not afraid to say what a sad profession optometry is and THAT I MADE A MISTAKE. I am trying to help others not make the same mistake. 20 eye exams a day every day, 5 days a week, for 25 years sound fun to you? You will not be doing anything else-DO NOT BELIEVE THE PROPAGANDA FROM THE AOA AND OPTOMETRY COLLEGES. It's cold on the outside. You also will not be doing what you were seeing in the optometric college on the outside.

    Optometrists have become a necessary tool in order to boost optical chain and HMO profits. The AOA and optometry schools are taking advantage of students who are at the end of a 4 year science program with substandard grades and a worthless degree. They know these students don't have much of a choice than to go on to further education to make any money, but won't get into or like medical school.

    If you actually like optometry and aren't lying to your friends, you might also like the following jobs: Cash register operator, ice cream scooper, toll booth operator and any other monotonous, mind numbing repetitive job. you'll just make more money as an OD and be able to call yourself the all important title of "doctor".

    I welcome all replies, becuase I have statistics, facts and plenty of unhappy OD collegues on my side.
  2. eyestrain

    eyestrain Member

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    As much as I love to complain about optometry, there are about a million worse jobs I could have. I'll take six figures for spinning dials and doing the occasional punctal plug over anything my friends are doing.
  3. KHE

    KHE Senior Member SDN Advisor

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    LMAO! Tell us what you REALLY think. :p+pity+
  4. 4Eyes

    4Eyes

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    I'm just curious, SaveYourself, how long have you been practicing?
  5. Dwight Schrute

    Dwight Schrute Asst. Regional Manager

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    Fascinating perspective. In a time when nearly two million Americans lost their jobs you're crying about a six figure job.

    I'd love to know where these "other professions that make more money with WAY less training, have better benefits and job security" are though. You are, after all, trying to help, right?
  6. blysssful

    blysssful SUNY c/o 2013

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    That statement is quite the conundrum, huh? :laugh:

    On a more serious note, it is truly unfortunate how unhappy you are with your choices. Maybe this is stating the obvious, but maybe instead of crying about your next "25 years" of refracting online, you should DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?
  7. gochi

    gochi

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    His post is quite credible.

    -the AOA is lying about salary information stating that 150k is the avg when in reality its much more less...somewhere areound 100k.

    -GPA MED school applicants > GPA OD school applicants.

    -saturation of ODs is increasing due to additional schools which will obviously lower income and increase working hours.

    -engineers go through 4 yrs of school and are capable of making as much as or more than an OD.

    -tuition/interest rates keep on increasing thereby making the debt even harder to pay off.

    -ODs are discriminated from medical plans.

    -Doctors do work on SUN/SAT in walmart or other corporate stores.
  8. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Optometry is great because despite working at Wal-Mart on Sundays, you still get to call yourself doctor! Who else gets to do that?



    Funny you should come and finger-point all of us folks who criticize optometry, only to do worse.


    Anyways - have you ever spoken to medical school residents? They're spending 100-hour work-weeks in hospitals for their entire 25-30 age bracket, while their similarly-aged optometry friends are working, dating, getting married, having a life, and vacationing.

    As for job satisfaction among the actual graduates of medical school,

    Half of primary-care doctors in survey would leave medicine
    http://edition.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/11/17/primary.care.doctors.study/index.html

    Oh - and as for the big debt - at least optometrists can find jobs to pay it off. Don't tell me you'd prefer to be a lawyer would you?

    Verdict is in: Legal job market tightens
    http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/03/news/economy/legal_industry/?postversion=2008120305



    Anyways, you're right. Optometry isn't the perfect career. It seems you wanted to have all the bells of whistles of having not only a high salary, but as well,

    -the respect accorded to "real" doctors (whatever that means, but I guess doctors who DON'T work in Wal-Mart!!)
    -a job that was intellectually stimulating EVERY-DAY! (oops - I guess that excludes ophthalmologists who do LASIK or cataract every day - who needs all that bling bling anyways?)
    -an education that leaves you with no debt (I guess optometry students are the only students who take out student loans!!)

    So the profession of optometry has disappointed and failed you. I'm sorry your hopes and dreams were crushed.



    It is obvious that you are actually the most sad soul here amongst us. It is clear the bitterness you hold against optometry is due to the fact that you are unfulfilled with your status as an optometrist. You in fact want the title of "doctor", with "doctor" defined by an MD degree. Thus despite all your "facts and statistics" that optometry is not a good career - your arguments are actually a show of bias, opinion, and personal unfulfillment, and not grounded in rational comparisons with the weaknesses of other, some lesser, professions.



    Would you like to tell us how you view those who choose to pursue the PharmD?



    For the record, I'm an optometrist and I research, teach and consult.
  9. Habitual Rx

    Habitual Rx

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    Please remember that this person is in a small geographical area and his views are only typical of what he or she has experience with.

    Gochi, are you from a major US city?
  10. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    The problem with SaveYourself's post, is he presents his opinions as fact.

    It is clear he believes optometry is about the worst job on earth (or at least on par with things like cash register operator, ice cream scooper, and toll booth operator - although I have yet to meet any doctor of any kind doing such jobs, and I'm sure any/all of these folks would make the jump to optometrist any day of the week). That is fine. Do I believe he is unfulfilled with optometry? Absolutely.


    Is it possible some optometrists are unhappy with optometry? Absolutely.

    Is it the case some optometrists have made very good careers in optometry? Absolutely.


    So yes, optometry has it's problems, as SaveYourself has pointed out. But whether optometry is a "bad" job or not, is an opinion, not a fact.


    Perhaps it's appropriate that SY acknowledge this, despite whatever "facts and statistics" he may have for us.
  11. gochi

    gochi

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    What the heck?

    I never said that. From where did you quote me?

    And no im not from a major US city.
  12. hello07

    hello07

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    Optometry is a wonderful profession. You can use topical meds to treat ocular disease and orals -those states that allow to treat ocular disease- so I don't know what save yourself means by what he said.
    Optometry is most likely one of the EASIEST jobs in the world! It's a joke- refraction and CL fittngs etc.....if you are good. even treating basic anterior seg. disease is not hard as long as you get the dx correct.

    yes, we don't get paid alot or enough and I agree the AOA often lies to potential candidates to join our profession but practicing Optometry is like flying a jet -on automatic. The only time you take over the controls is emergency - circumstances.

    Try being internal med. or neurosurg or in other brutal medical specialites. Sure, they make much more but ask them how much they sleep and how stressful their job is. Yeah............you'll appreciate being an O.D. I sure do.
  13. preopt2012

    preopt2012

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    I agree with this post. And it is YOUR mistake so stop complaining and deal with it.
  14. Dr Gump

    Dr Gump SDN Mentor SDN Advisor

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    You know, Private Practice Optometry sucks, too. My boss wakes me up screaming that I have to do this or that.....every morning! He makes me see patients at least 8 hours every day (except Saturday or Sunday...then he makes me walk a golf course).

    He constantly tells me what to do while I am seeing patients.
    "Make sure to order photos!"
    "Don't forget gonio!"
    "Why are you prescribing that med, when this one is better?"
    "Don't eat that....it is bad for you!"
    "No pain, no gain!"

    He is quite an *****hole. This year he only let me go to Costa Rica, instead of Europe. Something about the exchange rate. And get this....this next year he is only letting me go to Alaska. What a tirant. He even sleeps with my wife.

    One day I am going to revolt and become an old man. Then he won't be able to push me so hard. I'll make him sell his practice and find a nice place to drive a golf cart instead of walking. I CAN"T WAIT!!

    Until then, I guess I will suck it up and keep on going. Won't help to complain. All those statistics and colleagues don't care. They have their own problems.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

    Dr. Gump
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  15. JMU07

    JMU07

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    LOL. All he did was change what you wrote and put "a slew of negativity" because everything in that post was negative.
  16. blysssful

    blysssful SUNY c/o 2013

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    :laugh:

    Sounds rough!
  17. gochi

    gochi

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    then its not a quote because i never said it.

    but, seriosuly, some of the things the OP said are true.
  18. stonegoat

    stonegoat

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    Saveyourself.....I really don't get you. You need to travel the world a bit, and maybe you'll see just how lucky you are.

    I love optometry...I have my own practice, get lots of GP referrals, get to manange most conditions that present, and make a great income. I have a nice house, lots of food, and the money to pursue many, if not most, of my interests.

    Saveyourself...you are spoiled. Travel the world and see how most of the world live. Maybe you can gain some perspective.
  19. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    I have travelled the world (quite extensively, in fact). I love how people love to rationalize a lame situation by saying, "Well it could be worse...", rather than just looking at a situation and being honest about it. Optometry is going to get worse; a lot worse. Also, I don't think an optometrist living in rural Canada really has any point defending optometry in the USA. So unless you have experienced optometry in America, you probably shouldn't comment. I don't think any of us are going to race away to where you live anytime soon.
    Naturally, I must be spoiled because I can point out some serious problems that I have with the profession. I also like how you really go out of your way to mention (for the second time now) that you get lots of GP referrals and etc. OD's always have to show how they are an integral part of the "primary health care team". The funny part is that they are probably referring them to you becuase you are the only one around on that frozen wasteland. Ask your OD friends here in the states if they get the same treatment.
  20. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    I am. I'm going back to school for a real profession this time.
  21. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Uh, let's see...

    Firefighter
    Engineer
    Computer programmer
    IT Engineer
    College professor
    CPA
    Financial planner
    Lawyer
    Physician's Assistant
    RN

    I can go on forever, if you want me too.
  22. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Yeah, but I wanted to be challenged in my career. I worked a cash register and said I would get away from that boring, unchallenging job by getting an education. Well, now I have a boring, unchallenging job that just pays a little more.
  23. eyestrain

    eyestrain Member

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    Come back and let us know if the grass really is greener or if you're just trading one set of problems for another.
  24. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    I love how the best retort you have is, "What a sad soul you are...". Are you kidding? I'm not sad at all! I have plenty fun when I'm not doing optometry! I just think the profession is misrepresented, pathetic and striving for respect and recognition that it will never get. I also think that OD's are so insecure- look at how many of you attacked my character for simply posting my feelings and many problems with the profession. You are probably the same people who refer to yourselves as an "optometric physician". Anybody who doesn't see anything wrong with spending six figures and 8 years of one's life to be in a profession whose members work at Costco, Wall Mart, Sears and Lenscrafters really needs to get their head checked.
  25. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Exactly. There are a lot of problems that need to be overcome in this "profession".
  26. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Good for you. Thanks for the very professional manner in which you shared your opinions with us.
  27. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Will do. I'm sure, though, that many of the optometry myopians won't believe it. They'd rather just convince themselves that doing eye exams for the rest of their life is "Heaven on Earth".
  28. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    You're quite welcome. Remember that YOU we're the "professional" one who started out by attacking character.
  29. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    You say we attack your character - but look - you're the one calling us insecure and attacking our character. For the record, no, I don't call myself an optometric physician. I work in Canada - I haven't even prescribed a drug before - why would I call myself a physician?



    It is ironic that you claim everyone associated with optometry to be liars, when it is clear you need to resort to hyperbole to make your case.



    Some people have managed to make a pretty good career for themselves in optometry. I'm sorry you are unable to acknowledge this fact.
  30. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Geez, another canadian commenting on optometry in the US. For the record, I am commenting on optometry in the US. Also, what constitutes a "good career"? Money? Benefits? Sure, optometry can provide those. What about intellectual chellenge? Respect from collegues and the public? Sorry, but optometry really fails in those areas. Do you really think new grads want to be working at Wall Mart? They are doing it (in America) because jobs are increasingly hard to get out of school.

    P.S. I don't recall calling everyone associated with optometry to be liars, just the AOA and optometric colleges. You might want to pay a little more attention to the post next time.
  31. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Where did I do this?

    Looking over my posts, the worst I said is that you were a sad soul. Well aren't you? Wasn't that the whole gist of your thread - that anyone associated with optometry is unhappy? You are obviously unhappy with optometry.

    And sadness is an emotion, not a character trait.


    So no - I don't believe I have attacked your character. But by you suggesting I have a need to call myself an optometric physician due to insecurity, you are attacking mine.


    >> "Criticizing" of Character Lies Ahead <<
    Look in the mirror and realize that you're pointing all these fingers at us, when you're the one who has been the "bad" person in this thread. You've been the one who has been critical and insulting, and criticizing character, yet you try to deflect that attention by suggesting we are the ones who have done what you are in fact doing yourself.

    The evidence is all there, in your very own posts. Read them yourself.
  32. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Look - another instance of you pointing fingers at us, criticizing us for behaviors you are demonstrating yourself.


    Who knows - maybe we'll be very open-minded at the idea that you made a good career for yourself after optometry. But it seems you have already decided that we won't believe you. Seems pretty myopic for you to do that, doesn't it?
  33. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    I don't think I was commenting on "optometry in the US" (I thought I was commenting on optometry "in general"), but if you say so...

    Using your logic that the two are so different, I'll make the claim that in Canada, we get it all. Money, Benefits and Challenge.

    Why don't you move to Canada and try optometry here?



    Or are you going to say that it's impossible that optometry should be so great here? But you couldn't really do that cause that would be you, an American optometrist, commenting on optometry in Canada - and by your own reasoning - you have no authority on the matter.
  34. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    How does attacking a profession attack individuals? I started off by going after the PROFESSION, which I will always do until it cleans up its act. Throwing some jokes in there apparently hurt some feelings (yours). It's not my fault that optometry is in the state it is in.
  35. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    If optometry is challenging to you, I feel sorry for you. Not attacking, just sharing my feelings.
  36. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Why hasn't anyone challenged these?

    Nah, it seems like you're just listing a whole bunch of occupations off the top of your head.
  37. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Why would you feel sorry for me for something like this?
  38. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Wow. Now I really feel sorry for you...Yeah, I think optometry is a perfect career for you.
  39. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Nah, I have so many friends that are firefighters that earn 120+...PA's make 150-160+ out where I live...I'm not going to go over the rest of the entries...
  40. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    So you're suggesting I'm a dumb guy?


    Hey - if you're going to criticize people in this thread, then go ahead. But at least admit that you're the one doing it, and not claiming we're the one's who are criticizing you.

    If you don't realize you're doing this, then you really aren't in a position to suggest I'm the stupid one between us.
  41. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    If these salaries are so common, show me job classifieds offering these salaries.
  42. eyestrain

    eyestrain Member

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    Great. But I'm not myopic (at least not in the way you're referencing). I'm actually pretty harsh about this profession quite often. But, I've also come to the conclusion that every job/career has it's problems. All things considered, I'm pretty happy with the one I picked.
  43. achirum

    achirum

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    My dad is a firefighter and earns 120 a year, but works ~65 hours a week to do so. Starting firefighters who work normal hours make far far less. You seem to omit many facts from your statements.
  44. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    I wish I could have seen the light bulb appear over your head! I could keep on going letting you embarass yourself, but I won't, because It's just too easy and not really fair. :laugh:
  45. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Great! As long as you are honest about the profession, we'll have no problem...
  46. SaveYourself

    SaveYourself

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    Really? My friends earn 120+, and work 2 24's and then get 4 days off. When not on calls, they get paid to work out, cook, play PS3 and love their jobs. Is that enough information?
  47. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

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    Messages:
    988
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Hey - I knew exactly what you were implying - but I figured I'd give you the courtesy of actually saying it.



    I'm not sure why you feel the need to treat everyone around you as less intelligent than you. Would you like to comment on why this may be the case?
  48. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    988
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    So your "facts and statistics" are actually based on anecdotes and personal experiences.

    That's fine, but at least admit that they are.
  49. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    988
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    We've been able to concede your point, that optometry isn't the perfect job for everyone.


    Why can't you concede ours, that some folks do manage to have successful careers in optometry? This, as much as you may want to deny it, is probably the truth.
  50. qwopty99

    qwopty99 Veterinary Optometrist?

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    SDN 5+ Year Member
    See look. More hyperbole.


    Firefighters don't "get paid" to play PS3. They don't. They may use the time they are being paid for, to play PS3, but they aren't being paid (by the public, who fund firefighters) to play PS3. Now, if what you say is actually true, you can certainly choose to make a quick buck by informing your local national media outlets for this particularly offensive news story.


    So why can't you make your argument just by staying on facts without the hyperbole?
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