Liberty University-COM

[SkipJunior]

LUCOM is a controversial and divisive topic on SDN. From what I understand, the general consensus on SDN is to avoid applying to LUCOM due to their restrictive student policies and perceived negative school reputation due to the school's application of it's religious views.

In fact there is an adcom member on SDN who I will not name who is known for stating that he can't recommend LUCOM to medical school applicants. I respect that adcom member a lot and all the other adcom members who are nice enough to use their free time to give their advice here on SDN. So I'm very interested in finding out why some or all adcom members don't want to recommend LUCOM.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong but I would like to question this general consensus. If medical school applicants are willing to obey LUCOM's student policies, why can't they apply there and join LUCOM? Won't they be able to graduate and match into a residency program? I posed this same question in the LUCOM SDN thread a while back and I was told that LUCOM is a good school and that I should not listen to the rest of SDN.

So right now I'm confused and I'm sure a lot of pre-meds are too. I will also admit that I don't know much about LUCOM. So your opinions on this issue is very welcome here. Please feel free to express your questions and concerns regarding LUCOM as well.

I hope this thread will serve as a resource to current and future pre-meds. Also, I can't take full credit for starting this thread. I was inspired by a comment posted by another SDN member on another thread.

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[67552931811]

O my... This is not going to end well...

 

[SkipJunior]

O my... This is not going to end well...

Regardless of how it might end, I do believe that this is an important topic that should be discussed and aired out.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

1) They are new: -1 point
2) They are religious: -1 point (for most people)
3) They have faculty/history that a lot of people strongly disagree with: -1 point
4) Their rotation options are horrendous, they have weak OPTI connections (ie they dont have their own, just "agreements" with VCOM and CUSOM) and I have no clue how they will even have enough spots for all of their students (they sure as heck arent going to be able to snag any from VT and VCOM in Roanoke): -1 point
5) They have rules that a lot of people would not WANT to abide by (heck people hate LECOM's rules and they are dramatically lighter): -1 point

Thats about all there is to it, it doesnt have to be this big emotional thing that people turn it into.

Will they graduate competent physicians? Yes
Will their students get residencies? Yes
Would I personally go there? No - look at #4 in particular.

I agree with Chitown though... You arent going to find much reason when it comes to discussing LUCOM. People have their opinions and they arent going to change any time soon. I am on the fence on whether you are genuine or you are just trying to stir the pot...

 

[Cawolf]

I am personally neutral, but I can tell you why there is so much debate about LUCOM in one word.

Creationism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/10/AR2009031003690.html

Rational, science minded people are turned off by the parent university. I personally do not know how much of the parent university filters into the COM, but that is why many people avoid it.

 

[AlteredScale]

Regardless of how it might end, I do believe that this is an important topic that should be discussed and aired out.

Yeah actually do you mind taking my name off your thread post?
I was just stating a comment regarding my sentiments about the constant LUCOM bashing.

With that being said, I don't agree with how their mother institute has treated others (discriminately to say the least). Put that on top of uncertain clerkship sites. So how that will impact the school..who knows, doesn't look good IMO. But I don't believe grads will be left without a job.

 

[SkipJunior]

1) They are new: -1 point
2) They are religious: -1 point (for most people)
3) They have faculty/history that a lot of people strongly disagree with: -1 point
4) Their rotation options are horrendous, they have weak OPTI connections (ie they dont have their own, just "agreements" with VCOM and CUSOM) and I have no clue how they will even have enough spots for all of their students (they sure as heck arent going to be able to snag any from VT and VCOM in Roanoke): -1 point
5) They have rules that a lot of people would not WANT to abide by (heck people hate LECOM's rules and they are dramatically lighter): -1 point

Thats about all there is to it, it doesnt have to be this big emotional thing that people turn it into.

Will they graduate competent physicians? Yes
Will their students get residencies? Yes
Would I personally go there? No - look at #4 in particular.

I agree with Chitown though... You arent going to find much reason when it comes to discussing LUCOM. People have their opinions and they arent going to change any time soon. I am on the fence on whether you are genuine or you are just trying to stir the pot...

ps... mild prick move to name drop Altered... He didnt start this thread and I am sure he had no intention of a LUCOM thread to be started in his honor.

Thanks for your reply. I was not aware of points (3) and (4) so I've already gained something useful from this thread. It's also reassuring to hear that despite the cons, you do still feel that LUCOM will graduate competent physicians and match them into residencies. That's a very important point.

I was not aware that I was being a "mild prick". I apologize to the member you mentioned and I take full responsibility for starting this thread. I do believe that I'm doing a good thing by starting this thread on LUCOM and I didn't think it was fair that I get all the positive credit for it when I was inspired by the aforementioned member 's comment on another thread. However, the decision to start this thread was completely mine. If any of you are angry about this thread, direct that anger towards me and me alone.

 

[SkipJunior]

Yeah actually do you mind taking my name off your thread post?
I was just stating a comment regarding my sentiments about the constant LUCOM bashing.

With that being said, I don't agree with how their mother institute has treated others (discriminately to say the least). Put that on top of uncertain clerkship sites. So how that will impact the school..who knows, doesn't look good IMO.

Sure

 

[Goro]

FYI, do a search in these forums for the abstract published by their faculty on the "science" of why one shouldn't engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage. I rest my case on that alone.

EDIT: my own objections are directed at the politics of their parent organization. I'm a an equal opportunity pessimist. I cannot recommend Penn State to pre-allo applicants because their parent organization protected a child molester for > 10 years.

 

[SkipJunior]

I am personally neutral, but I can tell you why there is so much debate about LUCOM in one word.

Creationism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/10/AR2009031003690.html

Rational, science minded people are turned off by the parent university. I personally do not know how much of the parent university filters into the COM, but that is why many people avoid it.

True but do you necessarily have to believe in creationism to be a LUCOM student? You don't have to believe in Judaism to attend any of the Touro schools or believe in Christianity to attend CUSOM or Creighton.

 

[AlteredScale]

I am personally neutral, but I can tell you why there is so much debate about LUCOM in one word.

Creationism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/10/AR2009031003690.html

Rational, science minded people are turned off by the parent university. I personally do not know how much of the parent university filters into the COM, but that is why many people avoid it.

This is explanation is perfect. End the thread right here.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Sure

But then you name dropped him two other times..... In the beginning you said you were inspired by this member. Then you take it down, but then in the process say the exact same thing... that you were inspired by this member, and tag him twice.

Get your crap together man.

 

[SkipJunior]

But then you name dropped him two other times..... In the beginning you said you were inspired by this member. Then you take it down, but then in the process say the exact same thing... that you were inspired by this member, and tag him twice.

Get your crap together man.

I name dropped in my reply to your comment because in case someone had already read my thread and become angry, I didn't want them to get angry towards that particular member. I wanted them to direct their anger towards me. Anyway, I will remove those tags.

 

[AlteredScale]

True but do you necessarily have to believe in creationism to be a LUCOM student? You don't have to believe in Judaism to attend any of the Touro schools or believe in Christianity to attend CUSOM or Creighton.

No you don't have to believe in creationism to be a LUCOM student (EEO). But it would be quite difficult to be content in a community in which the majority does.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I name dropped in my reply to your comment because in case someone had already read my thread and become angry, I didn't want them to get angry towards that particular member. I wanted them to direct their anger towards me. Anyway, I will remove those tags.

We should probably just drop the thread, you think?

Seems to have already gotten off on the wrong foot and I dont imagine it will ever find it's bearings.

 

[user3]

FYI, do a search in these forums for the abstract published by their faculty on the "science" of why one shouldn't engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage. I rest my case on that alone.

EDIT: my own objections are directed at the politics of their parent organization. I'm a an equal opportunity pessimist. I cannot recommend Penn State to pre-allo applicants because their parent organization protected a child molester for > 10 years.

"Anatomical Sciences: Unselfishness and self-control are important in a patient for healthy sexual relationships. Female reproductive tracts allow for pathology (sperm proteins accessing the bloodstream can drag endometrial cells into the Pouch of Douglas) if honor doesn’t restrain intercourse during menstruation."

 

[AlteredScale]

"Anatomical Sciences: Unselfishness and self-control are important in a patient for healthy sexual relationships. Female reproductive tracts allow for pathology (sperm proteins accessing the bloodstream can drag endometrial cells into the Pouch of Douglas) if honor doesn’t restrain intercourse during menstruation."

Pubmed link?

 

[SkipJunior]

"Anatomical Sciences: Unselfishness and self-control are important in a patient for healthy sexual relationships. Female reproductive tracts allow for pathology (sperm proteins accessing the bloodstream can drag endometrial cells into the Pouch of Douglas) if honor doesn’t restrain intercourse during menstruation."

That sounds like a ridiculous article. Let me put it this way though, if an applicant only has 1 acceptance offer at the end of the cycle and that offer is from Liberty, should he/she refuse that offer and re-apply next cycle because of this article?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

That sounds like a ridiculous article. Let me put it this way though, if an applicant only has 1 acceptance offer at the end of the cycle and that offer is from Liberty, should he/she refuse that offer and re-apply next cycle because of this article?

Why do you need someone to tell you whether or not they would go there?

After you interview you just know. Or you know ahead of time to not even apply.

Every school has its faults. But you pick your school based on a lot of factors. Some people would be perfectly happy at LUCOM, others would never go. Either way, why should it affect you?

Example: everyone talked up MUCOM so I thought of it as one of my top schools when I was applying. Then I interviewed and realized I would not be happy there. Not only did I not need anyone on SDN telling me what to think, but they were in fact WRONG compared to my opinion.

 

[user3]

Why do you need someone to tell you whether or not they would go there?

After you interview you just know. Or you know ahead of time to not even apply.

Every school has its faults. But you pick your school based on a lot of factors. Some people would be perfectly happy at LUCOM, others would never go. Either way, why should it affect you?

Example: everyone talked up MUCOM so I thought of it as one of my top schools when I was applying. Then I interviewed and realized I would not be happy there. Not only did I not need anyone on SDN telling me what to think, but they were in fact WRONG compared to my opinion.

it will be interesting to see how Marian unfolds in coming years. They do have an incredibly strong GPA/MCAT average for being a new school.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

it will be interesting to see how Marian unfolds in coming years. They do have an incredibly strong GPA/MCAT average for being a new school.

Oh absolutely, and I mean seriously, when I say I don't like MUCOM I am completely aware that it is solely my opinion and not shared by plenty of other people.

But that's my point...

 

[dreday710]

They asked us after the end of our interview to tell about our extracurriculars with the group of interviewies. My life in volunteering and teaching has centered around Kundalini yoga. I taught free yoga in a park for 60 hours, and have helped many people through life struggles as their yoga teacher. When they asked me to tell the group about my extracurriculars, they told me, in front of everyone (at least they were straightforward) that I should talk about anything except yoga. It really hit home with me at that point that this school, although on paper says it is open to diversity, wants only students who firmly believe or can to pretend to believe in Christianity. As an open, friendly, accepting person, this was one of the most aggravating moments of my life, but I did what they asked, and talked about medically related extracurriculars. This is why I can't recommend LUCOM to anyone who believes that people should have the choice to pursue and talk about what makes them happy (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone). This isn't spam, or slander, this is what really happened. At that point, it was off my list. A physician needs to be able to neutrally and openly communicate with their patients, and I did not feel this school would promote acceptance in their class.

 

[Major]

Skip, man you need to take a break from posting.

 

[SkipJunior]

They asked us after the end of our interview to tell about our extracurriculars with the group of interviewies. My life in volunteering and teaching has centered around Kundalini yoga. I taught free yoga in a park for 60 hours, and have helped many people through life struggles as their yoga teacher. When they asked me to tell the group about my extracurriculars, they told me, in front of everyone (at least they were straightforward) that I should talk about anything except yoga. It really hit home with me at that point that this school, although on paper says it is open to diversity, wants only students who firmly believe or can to pretend to believe in Christianity. As an open, friendly, accepting person, this was one of the most aggravating moments of my life, but I did what they asked, and talked about medically related extracurriculars. This is why I can't recommend LUCOM to anyone who believes that people should have the choice to pursue and talk about what makes them happy (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone). This isn't spam, or slander, this is what really happened. At that point, it was off my list. A physician needs to be able to neutrally and openly communicate with their patients, and I did not feel this school would promote acceptance in their class.

Thanks for sharing that with us. Do you think the LUCOM admissions staff maybe thought yoga was related to a pagan religion like Hinduism/Buddhism and therefore not appropriate as a topic of discussion?

 

[SkipJunior]

Skip, man you need to take a break from posting.

Yeah, I don't plan on posting a new thread every day. I haven't started any threads for months and there were a couple of topics I wanted to discuss for a while and that's why I'm posting them all now.

 

[dreday710]

Thanks for sharing that with us. Do you think the LUCOM admissions staff maybe thought yoga was related to a pagan religion like Hinduism/Buddhism and therefore not appropriate as a topic of discussion?

That is my pretty much my point.

 

[SkipJunior]

That is my pretty much my point.

Okay that's what I thought but just wanted to be sure. Thanks again, I'm sure your recollections will be very useful for the pre-meds reading this thread.

 

[user3]

They asked us after the end of our interview to tell about our extracurriculars with the group of interviewies. My life in volunteering and teaching has centered around Kundalini yoga. I taught free yoga in a park for 60 hours, and have helped many people through life struggles as their yoga teacher. When they asked me to tell the group about my extracurriculars, they told me, in front of everyone (at least they were straightforward) that I should talk about anything except yoga. It really hit home with me at that point that this school, although on paper says it is open to diversity, wants only students who firmly believe or can to pretend to believe in Christianity. As an open, friendly, accepting person, this was one of the most aggravating moments of my life, but I did what they asked, and talked about medically related extracurriculars. This is why I can't recommend LUCOM to anyone who believes that people should have the choice to pursue and talk about what makes them happy (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone). This isn't spam, or slander, this is what really happened. At that point, it was off my list. A physician needs to be able to neutrally and openly communicate with their patients, and I did not feel this school would promote acceptance in their class.

thats pretty disturbing, honestly. I thought though, that the COM mentioned that they ARE accepting of other faiths-- that they had muslims and atheists in the incoming class, for example.

 

[SkipJunior]

thats pretty disturbing, honestly. I thought though, that the COM mentioned that they ARE accepting of other faiths-- that they had muslims and atheists in the incoming class, for example.

Yeah that's what I thought too. I'm surprised to find out they are not as accepting as they claim to be.

 

[polylux]

Yeah that's what I thought too. I'm surprised to find out they are not as accepting as they claim to be.

Every school is going to have certain things that it exaggerates about. Since many of LUCOM's critics attack the religion and creationism of the school, I'm sure they try to refute by pointing at their student body. Never mind that they may actively push creationism - they'll still try to spin it better for PR's sake.

I will say that although CUSOM is Christian-based, I did not have a single person mention religion to me during the interview day. It wasn't brought up as a subject at all. The only thing was that they have a small room that is like a "prayer room", but it has a piano inside (!) and apparently people just use it as a general meditation/quiet room when they need it, so I actually found it to be a plus. Plenty of medical schools are affiliated with certain religions, but few actually make the religion a big deal (ie: Loma Linda on the allo side, LUCOM on the osteo side).

Anyways, there are like a bajillion threads discussing this same issue, many very recent. The opinions have been hashed out a dozen times. You can find your answers pretty easy.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

FYI, for rotation spots at LUCOM; they will let married students with kids have first pick via lottery; then married students, then last is single students (unmarried or marriage not recognized legally). So???

 

[hallowmann]

I saw this thread and thought, oh man, not another one until I read this.

They asked us after the end of our interview to tell about our extracurriculars with the group of interviewies. My life in volunteering and teaching has centered around Kundalini yoga. I taught free yoga in a park for 60 hours, and have helped many people through life struggles as their yoga teacher. When they asked me to tell the group about my extracurriculars, they told me, in front of everyone (at least they were straightforward) that I should talk about anything except yoga. It really hit home with me at that point that this school, although on paper says it is open to diversity, wants only students who firmly believe or can to pretend to believe in Christianity. As an open, friendly, accepting person, this was one of the most aggravating moments of my life, but I did what they asked, and talked about medically related extracurriculars. This is why I can't recommend LUCOM to anyone who believes that people should have the choice to pursue and talk about what makes them happy (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone). This isn't spam, or slander, this is what really happened. At that point, it was off my list. A physician needs to be able to neutrally and openly communicate with their patients, and I did not feel this school would promote acceptance in their class.

This is pretty shocking right here.

 

[bcurtis]

After reading this thread, I believe I would rather do a SMP than take an acceptance at this school. The lack of diverse acceptance is really what makes no sense to me (they're training physicians for Pete's sake).

 

[SkipJunior]

I saw this thread and thought, oh man, not another one until I read this.



This is pretty shocking right here.

Yes, I think that post by itself makes this thread worth it. I hope plenty of pre-meds read it and spread the word.

 

[birdboybird]

In liberty's defense, they have a national championship caliber wrestling program. NO OTHER OSTEOPATHIC SCHOOLS HAVE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


GO FLAMES! ((There mascot))

 

[touchpause13]

Here are my concerns:
- how are they going to treat LGBTQ patients? Are they going to have gay standardized patients? Are they going to have lectures about needs of the LGBTQ community? Are they going to have opportunities to learn more about the needs of this population? My guess is no. The general population of their parent institution is very homophobic, I have a hard time seeing how that wouldn't affect the school.
- creationism
- they have a really strict code of conduct that they are NOT forthcoming about with potential students, my fear is that there will be people who go there who don't know what they got themselves into and get into trouble for things like living with their significant other or drinking on their own time.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Honestly aside from the fact that they're a religious school my biggest pet peeve is that they represent what is wrong with COCA.

No regard and respect for graduating osteopathic physician's and public opinion and a willingness to allow very weak schools to go through with being allowed to open.

Simply put LUCOM is one of a few schools open today that shouldn't be and may be one day closed.

 

[user3]

Honestly aside from the fact that they're a religious school my biggest pet peeve is that they represent what is wrong with COCA.

No regard and respect for graduating osteopathic physician's and public opinion and a willingness to allow very weak schools to go through with being allowed to open.

Simply put LUCOM is one of a few schools open today that shouldn't be and may be one day closed.

I don't know if LUCOM's opening was COCA's new low or COCA's granting of full accreditation for WCU. Although some of its students seem content, I don't think I have ever seen a worse reviewed DO school than WCU.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't know if LUCOM's opening was COCA's new low or COCA's swift granting of full accreditation for WCU. Although some of its students seem content, I don't think I have ever seen a worse reviewed DO school than WCU.

As a whole COCA is lacking in management of newer schools. LMU was approved with over 20% of their starting class failing out or being in remediation. WCU just took that a step farther and reached a new low that I would have thought COCA would have chose to fight against.

Nothing, not even prohibition, not a single thing. Coca simply doesn't care about students.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yea, I don't get it. At the least they should force schools like WCU to repeal their attendance policies, which as discussed ad-nauseum in these forums, is counterproductive to so many students' learning. But they don't.

Contrast this with the LCME putting Temple on probation for...lack of study spaces. Speaking of which, also seems to be a complaint at many DO schools.

I've given up expecting COCA to be close to LCME level in their protection of students. It's deregulated and it's expected to be internally worked through. Hence why it's important to attend established DO schools.

 

[LChristmas]

thats pretty disturbing, honestly. I thought though, that the COM mentioned that they ARE accepting of other faiths-- that they had muslims and atheists in the incoming class, for example.

I wonder if an atheist could apply to LUCOM as URM? Lol

 

[AlteredScale]

I wonder if an atheist could apply to LUCOM as URM? Lol

HAHAHAH this is signature worthy.

 

[j4pac]

I wonder if there are any Christian applicants out there who are refusing to go to med schools affiliated with secular colleges teaching the religion of evolution.

 

[touchpause13]

I wonder if there are any Christian applicants out there who are refusing to go to med schools affiliated with secular colleges teaching the religion of evolution.

Evolution isn't a religion but whatever more power to them. As long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to care for patients it's whatever

 

[j4pac]

Evolution isn't a religion but whatever more power to them. As long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to care for patients it's whatever

If that's your belief system...

 

[touchpause13]

If that's your belief system...

Evolution isn't a "belief system"

neither is gravity, germ theory, the host disease model, koch's postulates, the hardy weinburg equation, etc etc etc

 

[AlteredScale]

How much time is actually spent on evolution in med school?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I am a pretty devout christian who will be attending a secular school. Whether or not they teach evolution, its just a means to an end. The theories of evolution have about 0.01% of what it means to actually be a good practicing physician. I will pass the tests and just move on with my life, just like in undergrad, its no big deal.

Yes technically some things that I will be taught I disagree with. But honestly its probably like 2 weeks out of my entire education. Honestly, I just dont give a crap. When I am in residency and am eventually an attending, the theories of evolution will have no basis on how I treat my patients or how I administer various treatments or therapies. You practice sound medicine and you care for people - thats all.

And to touchpause, technically evolution is not a religion but it is an ideology that 100% conflict with some people's religious beliefs. Some people make a big deal out of it, others just play the game and move on with more important stuff. Consider me in the later group.

 

[medic86]

I am a pretty devout christian who will be attending a secular school. Whether or not they teach evolution, its just a means to an end. The theories of evolution have about 0.01% of what it means to actually be a good practicing physician. I will pass the tests and just move on with my life, just like in undergrad, its no big deal.

Yes technically some things that I will be taught I disagree with. But honestly its probably like 2 weeks out of my entire education. Honestly, I just dont give a crap. When I am in residency and am eventually an attending, the theories of evolution will have no basis on how I treat my patients or how I administer various treatments or therapies. You practice sound medicine and you care for people - thats all.

And to touchpause, technically evolution is not a religion but it is an ideology that 100% conflict with some people's religious beliefs. Some people make a big deal out of it, others just play the game and move on with more important stuff. Consider me in the later group.

Ehhh...

 

[touchpause13]

How much time is actually spent on evolution in med school?

Depends on what exactly you mean by that. I haven't had a lecture on strictly on evolution, but evolution is what makes biology make sense. So for example when learning about the influenza virus, you kind of have to talk about evolution in order to explain how it works, why we need yearly vaccines and all that. So we cover genetic shift, drift, hardy weinberg, the red queen hypothesis, antibiotic resistance, a lot of stuff that you need an understanding of evolution to make sense, but it's not like you get an hour lecture on how evolution works.