Liberty University-COM

[touchpause13]

And to touchpause, technically evolution is not a religion but it is an ideology that 100% conflict with some people's religious beliefs. Some people make a big deal out of it, others just play the game and move on with more important stuff. Consider me in the later group.

How??

Is it an ideology that I also believe the Earth circles around the sun? I just don't get the comparison in the slightest.

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[Awesome Sauceome]

Depends on what exactly you mean by that. I haven't had a lecture on strictly on evolution, but evolution is what makes biology make sense. So for example when learning about the influenza virus, you kind of have to talk about evolution in order to explain how it works, why we need yearly vaccines and all that. So we cover genetic shift, drift, hardy weinberg, the red queen hypothesis, antibiotic resistance, a lot of stuff that you need an understanding of evolution to make sense, but it's not like you get an hour lecture on how evolution works.

But also bacterial and viral life cycle stuff is very different than true blue "we came from the muck" argument. I worked as a bacterial engineer and now I work in cancer research. I can tell you with 100% certainty that not believing in evolution has not affected my (or many of the other religious people I work with) one bit. Out in the real world no one gives a crap.

I totally agree with and understand how cells/viruses work and all of that business. I have no qualms about it, it makes sense. But on a organismal and societal scale, thats where the differences arise. But the reality is, you only have to agree and understand the first half. Whether or not you agree a bird came form a fish came from a bug or whatever has nothing to do with understanding vaccine theory, genetic drift, etc.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

How??

Is it an ideology that I also believe the Earth circles around the sun? I just don't get the comparison in the slightest.

We will just never agree, and thats ok with me. Lets just call it at that, its all good.

 

[touchpause13]

But also bacterial and viral life cycle stuff is very different than true blue "we came from the muck" argument. I worked as a bacterial engineer and now I work in cancer research.

I totally agree with and understand how cells/viruses work and all of that business. I have no qualms about it, it makes sense. But on a organismal and societal scale, thats where the differences arise. But the reality is, you only have to agree and understand the first half. Whether or not you agree a bird came form a fish came from a bug or whatever has nothing to do with understanding vaccine theory, genetic drift, etc.

I don't understand where the difference is. It's the same principles, is the qualm just that it's applied to humans?
And no I don't believe that a bird spontaneously arose from a fish, it's about common ancestry, which is the central tenet of the whole thing.

If you don't want to talk about this that's fine, you don't have to. I just always get confused by how political this whole thing gets, and when people talk about evolution like it's some sort of religion or ideology. I think that's trying to put a religious concept onto science and it just doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

How one cell acts alone is very different than how tissues act, is very different than how organs act, is very different than how entire organisms act... So yes, while I will agree that evolution on a molecular or microscopic scale occurs because there is absolute, 100% - physically see the DNA move, kind of proof. I simply dont buy into the larger tissue/organ/organismal scale. And even if I did, even lets say on an organism scale I believed it, there is still the question of where all of it came from. Where did those atoms come from that make up those proteins/lipids/etc that build cells that build tissue that build organs that build organisms. Where did the protons and neutrons and electrons come from? THAT is where the money is at on this decision to be religious. As far as I am concerned the answers on both sides of the coin are JUST theories to explain it all.

Basically if you go far enough back there is just as much uncertainty in either route. The grand question "how did it all start" (big bang vs creationism) both have theories/answers. I tend to just find, inside myself, more confidence with the religious answer. If both are uncertain (as they both absolutely are - otherwise people wouldnt debate it), I will go with the one that for whatever reason I feel called to believe. You see DNA and say "wow thats incredible how all of this worked out and its amazing how over all of this time it structured itself like this." I look at DNA and say "there is just no way that something this beautiful just randomly came together like this, its too perfect."

***Side note, I say all this coming from being an atheist for 16 years and finding religion later on. I have tried em both out. One just sits better with me. I promise you touchpause that no harm will come to any other person because of my beliefs, if anything it is a driving force for me to be a better person.

 

[polylux]

How can you only selectively believe in certain scientific theories? I mean, if you don't believe in evolution, then do you believe humans really are just a couple thousand years old? And that we existed alongside dinosaurs? Physicians are scientists. To have a physician refute evolution is like having a physician refute the efficacy of vaccines.

Personally, I don't care if there is or is not a god, but evolution and the existence of God are not necessarily incompatible ideas. People don't know how the Big Bang happened - could have been initiated by a higher being?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

How can you only selectively believe in certain scientific theories? I mean, if you don't believe in evolution, then do you believe humans really are just a couple thousand years old? And that we existed alongside dinosaurs? Physicians are scientists. To have a physician refute evolution is like having a physician refute the efficacy of vaccines.

Personally, I don't care if there is or is not a god, but evolution and the existence of God are not necessarily incompatible ideas. People don't know how the Big Bang happened - could have been initiated by a higher being?

This is more or less where I am at. As far as I am concerned there are no hard and fast dates in EITHER route. Even among Christian/Judaic/Islamic scholars no one really has a clue. And thats fine with me. Both routes of belief, on some level, are shrouded by uncertainty. Thats basically the key idea behind this argument here. Neither are absolute, inexhaustible answers to the questions we have about life. After being an atheist for so long I just realized that I would rather believe in God and then when I die there be nothing, than die and realize I missed the boat because I was following some dude that (just as equally) doesnt answer all of my questions.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

But either way, to try and get back on track and not devolve this thread as many LUCOM threads before it have.... If you would like my reasons for not going to LUCOM (unrelated to my beliefs) refer farther up in the thread. Thats what the thread is about.

If you want to discuss this stuff, seriously you can PM me, I am happy to talk about it, its not some taboo thing I dont like discussing.

 

[j4pac]

Evolution isn't a "belief system"

neither is gravity, germ theory, the host disease model, koch's postulates, the hardy weinburg equation, etc etc etc

I agree...evolution as defined by population genetics is a scientific fact. Many of the macroevolution theories, on the other hand, require as much faith as many "religions". And those theories are what are being treated as science by many professors at our colleges.

 

[LadiiKay]

So based on the opinions posted above, given the option, would those of you against LUCOM choose/recommend a Caribbean medical school over this school?
On SDN the ideology is generally US MD > US DO > Caribbean so I wonder if LUCOM would be an exception to that.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I agree...evolution as defined by population genetics is a scientific fact. Many of the macroevolution theories, on the other hand, require as much faith as many "religions".

Exactly... honestly (again having previously believed in evolution) both feel like faith to me. Both felt uncertain, so I went with the one that I personally felt answered my questions better and provided more hope to my life.

Maybe I am wrong? Who knows... I certainly dont think I am wrong, but obviously plenty of other people think I am. Thats fine with me, its your belief.

How bout this, we let each other know after we die? Heh

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

So based on the opinions posted above, given the option, would those of you against LUCOM choose/recommend a Caribbean medical school over this school?
On SDN the ideology is generally US MD > US DO > Caribbean so I wonder if LUCOM would be an exception to that.

I would never do Caribbean. I would find a different career than Caribbean. You are playing the lottery, but instead of a $5 scratch off you are playing with $250,000. Even with LUCOM you have more of a guarantee because it is a school physically inside the United States.

 

[AlteredScale]

So based on the opinions posted above, given the option, would those of you against LUCOM choose/recommend a Caribbean medical school over this school?
On SDN the ideology is generally US MD > US DO > Caribbean so I wonder if LUCOM would be an exception to that.

No. I would go to LUCOM over the Caribbean honestly.

 

[SkipJunior]

I would never do Caribbean. I would find a different career than Caribbean. You are playing the lottery, but instead of a $5 scratch off you are playing with $250,000. Even with LUCOM you have more of a guarantee because it is a school physically inside the United States.

Plus with LUCOM, you have a good shot at one of those AOA residency spots, a lot of which go unfilled every year. You don't have that fallback with the Caribbean schools.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Plus with LUCOM, you have a good shot at one of those AOA residency spots, a lot of which go unfilled every year. You don't have that fallback with the Caribbean schools.

Bingo

 

[j4pac]

Folks...Caribbean isn't an option. Janitor vs Caribbean...Janitor wins every time. Being a janitor is a respectable job that isn't gong to put you $300,000 in debt for nothing in return.

 

[Anthonyweiner]

Hey, current student here. Maybe I can answer some of your questions from a first hand point of view rather than citing and re-posting what others have said on SDN. Couple quick things:

- I am an atheist here; not the only one; have never been pressured or felt targeted in anyway
- The only time I hear about creationism is when I come on SDN and see a few of you guys talking about it
- There are no restrictive policies unless you count dressing like an adult restrictive

I will answer any questions you have to hopefully dispel many of the unfounded rumors floating around here.

 

[SkipJunior]

Hey, current student here. Maybe I can answer some of your questions from a first hand point of view rather than citing and re-posting what others have said on SDN. Couple quick things:

- I am an atheist here; not the only one; have never been pressured or felt targeted in anyway
- The only time I hear about creationism is when I come on SDN and see a few of you guys talking about it
- There are no restrictive policies unless you count dressing like an adult restrictive

I will answer any questions you have to hopefully dispel many of the unfounded rumors floating around here.

Do you feel that someone who practices non-Christian religions or who's gay might get in trouble with LUCOM if they let LUCOM know? Can a LUCOM student only be gay or Hindu for example if they keep that to themselves? Do you think LUCOM grads will be able to work with gay patients and patients of diverse religious backgrounds?

Do you recommend LUCOM to pre-meds? If so, why?

 

[Anthonyweiner]

Do you feel that someone who practices non-Christian religions or who's gay might get in trouble with LUCOM if they let LUCOM know? Can a LUCOM student only be gay or Hindu for example if they keep that to themselves? Do you think LUCOM grads will be able to work with gay patients and patients of diverse religious backgrounds?

Do you recommend LUCOM to pre-meds? If so, why?

There are many, many different faiths represented here (and many non-faiths). We openly talk about our different faiths during small groups often and no one is ever criticized in their beliefs. Students will not get in trouble for having other-than-Christian beliefs or for being homosexual despite what SDN thinks; First and foremost, LUCOM is interested in our desire to serve others.

Serving those with different religious backgrounds or sexual orientations is not something we even think twice about - our student body is composed of exactly that.

I interviewed at three schools including LUCOM and to me, it was the best fit. I would recommend LUCOM but challenge those to make up their own mind after seeing what we really are about.

 

[SkipJunior]

There are many, many different faiths represented here (and many non-faiths). We openly talk about our different faiths during small groups often and no one is ever criticized in their beliefs. Students will not get in trouble for having other-than-Christian beliefs or for being homosexual despite what SDN thinks; First and foremost, LUCOM is interested in our desire to serve others.

Serving those with different religious backgrounds or sexual orientations is not something we even think twice about - our student body is composed of exactly that.

I interviewed at three schools including LUCOM and to me, it was the best fit. I would recommend LUCOM but challenge those to make up their own mind after seeing what we really are about.

Thanks for your input. The reason I started this thread was so that I can promote a relevant current discussion about LUCOM that can serve as a resource for pre-meds who are considering LUCOM. I'm sure your answers will help pre-meds make a final decision about LUCOM.

Can pre-meds PM you if they have any questions with LUCOM? I want to ask on their behalf so that they can feel free to PM you with their queries.

 

[AlteredScale]

Hey, current student here. Maybe I can answer some of your questions from a first hand point of view rather than citing and re-posting what others have said on SDN. Couple quick things:

- I am an atheist here; not the only one; have never been pressured or felt targeted in anyway
- The only time I hear about creationism is when I come on SDN and see a few of you guys talking about it
- There are no restrictive policies unless you count dressing like an adult restrictive

I will answer any questions you have to hopefully dispel many of the unfounded rumors floating around here.

Well that settles all the debate here. This post should be stickied.

 

[hallowmann]

This is more or less where I am at. As far as I am concerned there are no hard and fast dates in EITHER route. Even among Christian/Judaic/Islamic scholars no one really has a clue. And thats fine with me. Both routes of belief, on some level, are shrouded by uncertainty...

I mean no one, scientists included, really has a clue about the beginning. The beginning is pretty much the most murky subject when it comes to evolution and most theories. It is very difficult for us to define or be certain of things that we can't observe. At best we can create models that may have been how things happened, but even in evolutionist circles dogmatic sides of different issues vehemently argue over what "actually" happened.

That said, there are many things in evolutionary theory that are observable and essentially truths (for as much as we can say anything is a "truth"). I think scientists get nervous about the idea of questioning any aspects of it because recent history of western Judao-Christian doctrine has been about not questioning things and suppressing science for fear that it may "challenge" God's law. As people here have said, religion isn't inherently opposed to science, and in fact periods of history have demonstrated that the study of science was promoted, and even considered a requisite, in multiple religions, and as I've mentioned before, some of the greatest scientists were driven by a need to "understand God's world" with the minds that we've been given.

So based on the opinions posted above, given the option, would those of you against LUCOM choose/recommend a Caribbean medical school over this school?
On SDN the ideology is generally US MD > US DO > Caribbean so I wonder if LUCOM would be an exception to that.

No, its not an exception. If LUCOM has an attrition rate of 30-50% added to a GME placement rate for those that make it out of 40-70%, then we might be able to talk about it.

Also, to cut this argument off before anyone brings it up, yes high performers at Carib schools do attain GME and some even do well in the match, but chances are, if you're a high performer at a Carib school, you'll be one at a DO school, so you'll be amongst the top regardless, and, as a rule, you'll do better/have more options in terms of GME coming from a DO school.

 

[Lennon1967]

I am a pretty devout christian who will be attending a secular school. Whether or not they teach evolution, its just a means to an end. The theories of evolution have about 0.01% of what it means to actually be a good practicing physician. I will pass the tests and just move on with my life, just like in undergrad, its no big deal.

Yes technically some things that I will be taught I disagree with. But honestly its probably like 2 weeks out of my entire education. Honestly, I just dont give a crap. When I am in residency and am eventually an attending, the theories of evolution will have no basis on how I treat my patients or how I administer various treatments or therapies. You practice sound medicine and you care for people - thats all.

And to touchpause, technically evolution is not a religion but it is an ideology that 100% conflict with some people's religious beliefs. Some people make a big deal out of it, others just play the game and move on with more important stuff. Consider me in the later group.

If evolution is 100% in conflict with someone's religious beliefs, then all that means is their religious beliefs are wrong. Evolution is not an ideology or a belief, it is a scientific fact. If someone doesn't "believe" in evolution, they have no business pursuing a career in anything related to biology. It's just as stupid as a physicist that doesn't believe in gravity.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

If evolution is 100% in conflict with someone's religious beliefs, then all that means is their religious beliefs are wrong. Evolution is not an ideology or a belief, it is a scientific fact. If someone doesn't "believe" in evolution, they have no business pursuing a career in anything related to biology. It's just as stupid as a physicist that doesn't believe in gravity.

 

[Lennon1967]

Good one. You really got me there.

 

[AlteredScale]

If evolution is 100% in conflict with someone's religious beliefs, then all that means is their religious beliefs are wrong. Evolution is not an ideology or a belief, it is a scientific fact. If someone doesn't "believe" in evolution, they have no business pursuing a career in anything related to biology. It's just as stupid as a physicist that doesn't believe in gravity.

Good one. You really got me there.

Tone it down with the hostility. You're not adding anything to this discussion.

There are MANY scientists and physicians who contribute greatly to the field while still having a faith system of their own.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Good one. You really got me there.

 

[touchpause13]

How one cell acts alone is very different than how tissues act, is very different than how organs act, is very different than how entire organisms act... So yes, while I will agree that evolution on a molecular or microscopic scale occurs because there is absolute, 100% - physically see the DNA move, kind of proof. I simply dont buy into the larger tissue/organ/organismal scale. And even if I did, even lets say on an organism scale I believed it, there is still the question of where all of it came from. Where did those atoms come from that make up those proteins/lipids/etc that build cells that build tissue that build organs that build organisms. Where did the protons and neutrons and electrons come from? THAT is where the money is at on this decision to be religious. As far as I am concerned the answers on both sides of the coin are JUST theories to explain it all.

Basically if you go far enough back there is just as much uncertainty in either route. The grand question "how did it all start" (big bang vs creationism) both have theories/answers. I tend to just find, inside myself, more confidence with the religious answer. If both are uncertain (as they both absolutely are - otherwise people wouldnt debate it), I will go with the one that for whatever reason I feel called to believe. You see DNA and say "wow thats incredible how all of this worked out and its amazing how over all of this time it structured itself like this." I look at DNA and say "there is just no way that something this beautiful just randomly came together like this, its too perfect."

***Side note, I say all this coming from being an atheist for 16 years and finding religion later on. I have tried em both out. One just sits better with me. I promise you touchpause that no harm will come to any other person because of my beliefs, if anything it is a driving force for me to be a better person.

I see that we aren't going to agree which is fine.

Personally I believe in evolution on the level of populations because there is proof. There is evidence of organisms coming from a common ancestor, so that's what I'm going with. Also as I mentioned earlier biology just doesn't make sense without that.

Now when you get down to the questions of how or why life started, what was the precipitating event - well those are questions I don't have answers to. And frankly they aren't questions I really care about because they have no impact on my daily life. However you or anyone else seeks to answer those is total valid IMO.

And for the record I was Catholic and came to atheism, something that has made a happier person. I hold no ill will towards catholics or any other faith, but I just don't have much experience with those who don't believe in evolution (or believe in some parts and not others). Catholics tend to side strongly on evolution, the first place I was taught evolution was in catholic school. I hope you don't take offense to me asking questions, it's not me trying to pressure you into believing one way or another, it's my own curiosity and lack of experience with those who have beliefs like yours. I appreciate you answering without being a jerk about it basically.

 

[AlteredScale]

I see that we aren't going to agree which is fine.

Personally I believe in evolution on the level of populations because there is proof. There is evidence of organisms coming from a common ancestor, so that's what I'm going with. Also as I mentioned earlier biology just doesn't make sense without that.

Now when you get down to the questions of how or why life started, what was the precipitating event - well those are questions I don't have answers to. And frankly they aren't questions I really care about because they have no impact on my daily life. However you or anyone else seeks to answer those is total valid IMO.

And for the record I was Catholic and came to atheism, something that has made a happier person. I hold no ill will towards catholics or any other faith, but I just don't have much experience with those who don't believe in evolution (or believe in some parts and not others). Catholics tend to side strongly on evolution, the first place I was taught evolution was in catholic school. I hope you don't take offense to me asking questions, it's not me trying to pressure you into believing one way or another, it's my own curiosity and lack of experience with those who have beliefs like yours. I appreciate you answering without being a jerk about it basically.

Thank you as well for being one of the few people on here that can hold a civil conversation with those with a different viewpoint.

 

[Goro]

For one to understand multi-drug resistance not only in microbes but also in cancer cells, one has to understand natural selection.

Depends on what exactly you mean by that. I haven't had a lecture on strictly on evolution, but evolution is what makes biology make sense. So for example when learning about the influenza virus, you kind of have to talk about evolution in order to explain how it works, why we need yearly vaccines and all that. So we cover genetic shift, drift, hardy weinberg, the red queen hypothesis, antibiotic resistance, a lot of stuff that you need an understanding of evolution to make sense, but it's not like you get an hour lecture on how evolution works.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I see that we aren't going to agree which is fine.

Personally I believe in evolution on the level of populations because there is proof. There is evidence of organisms coming from a common ancestor, so that's what I'm going with. Also as I mentioned earlier biology just doesn't make sense without that.

Now when you get down to the questions of how or why life started, what was the precipitating event - well those are questions I don't have answers to. And frankly they aren't questions I really care about because they have no impact on my daily life. However you or anyone else seeks to answer those is total valid IMO.

And for the record I was Catholic and came to atheism, something that has made a happier person. I hold no ill will towards catholics or any other faith, but I just don't have much experience with those who don't believe in evolution (or believe in some parts and not others). Catholics tend to side strongly on evolution, the first place I was taught evolution was in catholic school. I hope you don't take offense to me asking questions, it's not me trying to pressure you into believing one way or another, it's my own curiosity and lack of experience with those who have beliefs like yours. I appreciate you answering without being a jerk about it basically.

Haha indeed.... It is interesting because personally, population evolution (the thing you DO care about) is something that I dont care about and has no impact on my daily life. Whereas the question you DONT care about (origin of life) is something I do care about greatly and is my reason for not believing in evolution in the first place. Its just a matter of wanting different questions answered, having different interests, and simply not agreeing. I hope to strong arm you no more than you hope to strong arm me - which is how it should be.

I grew up firmly believing in evolution because I came from a secular family and went to public school. Anyone that thought otherwise I thought was foolish and stupid. Over time I started to think deeper on some of these issues and simply had a nagging feeling caused by some of these questions - where did it all come from? When I was an atheist I felt a void and I felt like I was supposed to just accept the big bang and all that business as fact when in reality there is no legit hard evidence on it - at least no more than the Christianity, or many other religions for that matter offer. Thats about all there is to it:

And as a side note, I hope to work in pediatric intensive care so I dont know how much this will come up, but just for the record:
Would I treat LGBT patients the same, Yes
Do I agree with using vaccines, Yes
Do I think stem cells have a place in medicine, Yes
Do I believe in natural selection - such as that which occurs in a microscopic scale and even in instances of isolated populations (ie what Goro mentioned), Yes
Can I help people medically while also being devoutly religious? You betcha.

Not all of us bible thumpers are out to witch hunt anybody or stay in the dogma of the past. A lot of us just want to help people, just as much as secular people do. I just simply dont agree with everything I was spoon fed all throughout public school. I am happier with the answers that I found in the bible than the answers I found in some textbooks. Does that mean I pick and choose data? No. Does that mean I throw all of my textbooks away? No. It means for my question: what is the origin of life (and all other associated questions related to that), I choose religion.

 

[touchpause13]

Haha indeed.... It is interesting because personally, population evolution (the thing you DO care about) is something that I dont care about and has no impact on my daily life. Whereas the question you DONT care about (origin of life) is something I do care about greatly and is my reason for not believing in evolution in the first place. Its just a matter of wanting different questions answered, having different interests, and simply not agreeing. I hope to strong arm you no more than you hope to strong arm me - which is how it should be.

I grew up firmly believing in evolution because I came from a secular family and went to public school. Anyone that thought otherwise I thought was foolish and stupid. Over time I started to think deeper on some of these issues and simply had a nagging feeling caused by some of these questions - where did it all come from? When I was an atheist I felt a void and I felt like I was supposed to just accept the big bang and all that business as fact when in reality there is no legit hard evidence on it - at least no more than the Christianity, or many other religions for that matter offer. Thats about all there is to it:

And as a side note, I hope to work in pediatric intensive care so I dont know how much this will come up, but just for the record:
Would I treat LGBT patients the same, Yes
Do I agree with using vaccines, Yes
Do I think stem cells have a place in medicine, Yes
Do I believe in small scale natural selection - such as bacteria and other microbes, Yes
Can I help people medically while also being devoutly religious? You betcha.

Not all of us bible thumpers are out to witch hunt anybody or stay in the dogma of the past. A lot of us just want to help people, just as much as secular people do. I just simply dont agree with everything I was spoon fed all throughout public school. I am happier with the answers that I found in the bible than the answers I found in some textbooks.

This is all super valid. I mean really it's we are asking different questions and finding different answers. Which is reasonable and makes sense because we are different people. What works for me probably wouldn't work for you and vice versa, doesn't mean that one way is *better* or more right than the other.

For the record I don't think all Christians or bible thumpers are out to convert or hurt people. I don't even think religion is a inherently bad thing - I think it's neutral. The thing is religion gets used by people, both for good and for ill. Just because I've had bad experiences with religion doesn't mean I think it's worthless or religious people are jerks.

I'm glad that you've had a good experience, that it's helped answer your nagging questions. Atheism has done that for me, but like I said, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. I really have nothing bad to say against you because you seem like an intelligent person who is going to use their faith to help guide their life without being judgemental and I think your patients will be better for it.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

This is all super valid. I mean really it's we are asking different questions and finding different answers. Which is reasonable and makes sense because we are different people. What works for me probably wouldn't work for you and vice versa, doesn't mean that one way is *better* or more right than the other.

For the record I don't think all Christians or bible thumpers are out to convert or hurt people. I don't even think religion is a inherently bad thing - I think it's neutral. The thing is religion gets used by people, both for good and for ill. Just because I've had bad experiences with religion doesn't mean I think it's worthless or religious people are jerks.

I'm glad that you've had a good experience, that it's helped answer your nagging questions. Atheism has done that for me, but like I said, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. I really have nothing bad to say against you because you seem like an intelligent person who is going to use their faith to help guide their life without being judgemental and I think your patients will be better for it.

It truly saddens me to a degree that a lot of people cant understand when religion is used in any kind of way to hurt others or used for personal gain (think politics and wars). It kills me that people would be hurt (period), it kills me that it gives religion a bad name, it kills me that those people will forever associate religion with pain, anguish, or disgust. That is literally the exact opposite of what it was intended for, in the case of Christianity (I cant say much about other religions because I honestly am ignorant to them).

I appreciate your positive comments, we are all just trying to make it through the same life.

 

[j4pac]

If evolution is 100% in conflict with someone's religious beliefs, then all that means is their religious beliefs are wrong. Evolution is not an ideology or a belief, it is a scientific fact. If someone doesn't "believe" in evolution, they have no business pursuing a career in anything related to biology. It's just as stupid as a physicist that doesn't believe in gravity.

You need a better understanding of the scientific method if you are going to talk about science being fact.

You seem like the type of person who likes to label folks and use words with -ists attached to them. The topic of evolution is not as black and white as you would make it seem. I believe that the overwhelming majority of even Christian physicians agree that evolution is at play in some capacity. Macroevolution is a much more difficult concept to grasp...and to call that scientific fact is quite honestly ignorant.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

You need a better understanding of the scientific method if you are going to talk about science being fact.

You seem like the type of person who likes to label folks and use words with -ists attached to them. The topic of evolution is not as black and white as you would make it seem. I believe that the overwhelming majority of even Christian physicians agree that evolution is at play in some capacity. Macroevolution is a much more difficult concept to grasp...and to call that scientific fact is quite honestly ignorant.

I cannot "quote for truth" this enough.

 

[touchpause13]

It truly saddens me to a degree that a lot of people cant understand when religion is used in any kind of way to hurt others or used for personal gain (think politics and wars). It kills me that people would be hurt (period), it kills me that it gives religion a bad name, it kills me that those people will forever associate religion with pain, anguish, or disgust. That is literally the exact opposite of what it was intended for, in the case of Christianity (I cant say much about other religions because I honestly am ignorant to them).

I appreciate your positive comments, we are all just trying to make it through the same life.

Anytime. Although if I keep being this nice people are going to start saying I'm going soft

And I agree, and I do know that most of Christianity isn't supposed to be the way I've experienced it, but it is what it is. I found what works for me so

 

[user3]

For one to understanding multi-drug resistance not only in microbes but also in cancer cells, one has to understand natural selection.

but what about MACROevolution? That seems to be the point of contention.

 

[touchpause13]

but what about MACROevolution? That seems to be the point of contention.

Can someone please explain what on earth macro/micro evolution is?

 

[user3]

You need a better understanding of the scientific method if you are going to talk about science being fact.

You seem like the type of person who likes to label folks and use words with -ists attached to them. The topic of evolution is not as black and white as you would make it seem. I believe that the overwhelming majority of even Christian physicians agree that evolution is at play in some capacity. Macroevolution is a much more difficult concept to grasp...and to call that scientific fact is quite honestly ignorant.

In the same breath you also should state that calling the origin of Earth in 7 days 2,000 years ago fact-- which true Christians do, and which true Christians expect others to believe (among other things) to be "saved"-- is at the very least, just as ignorant.

 

[user3]

Can someone please explain what on earth macro/micro evolution is?

"Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population." (wiki)

 

[touchpause13]

In the same breath you also should state that calling the origin of Earth in 7 days 2,000 years ago fact-- which true Christians do, and which true Christians expect others to believe (among other things) to be "saved"-- is at the very least, just as ignorant.

I think there is a lot of dissent about who the "true christians" are. Just for the record

 

[touchpause13]

"Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population." (wiki)

I guess I have a really hard time seperating the two, I took undergrad courses on evolution specifically and until I came here I had never heard of the two being separated. I just don't understand why you would make that distinction.

 

[user3]

I guess I have a really hard time seperating the two, I took undergrad courses on evolution specifically and until I came here I had never heard of the two being separated. I just don't understand why you would make that distinction.

the macroevolutionary concept of speciation ("the evolutionary process by which new biological species arise") is not compatible with Christian/Biblical teachings about the origin of man.

natural selection of resistant bacterial or cancer cells isn't necessarily incompatible (microevolution). But formation of human species from non-human species (which would fall under macroevolution) is.

 

[Goro]

I think we're drifting away from OP's query.

So, back on track, folks!

For me, macro/micro...the two go together. It's also OK to say that there are things we still don't have the answer for yet.

but what about MACROevolution? That seems to be the point of contention.

 

[AlteredScale]

Someone close this thread before it turns into another round of Christian bashing.

 

[petyr_baelish]

So based on the opinions posted above, given the option, would those of you against LUCOM choose/recommend a Caribbean medical school over this school?
On SDN the ideology is generally US MD > US DO > Caribbean so I wonder if LUCOM would be an exception to that.

To put it snidely, the bridge I want to jump off has a road block. Should I jump off this cliff instead?

 

[acapnial]

If evolution is 100% in conflict with someone's religious beliefs, then all that means is their religious beliefs are wrong. Evolution is not an ideology or a belief, it is a scientific fact. If someone doesn't "believe" in evolution, they have no business pursuing a career in anything related to biology. It's just as stupid as a physicist that doesn't believe in gravity.

I know this is off the main topic, but I couldn't resist.

 

[RunninGirl3]

Ok, I can't contribute to the evolution debate, but hopefully my insight from my interview experience here may be valuable to someone. I do wish LUCOM success in its mission to develop competent, service-oriented physicians.

LUCOM was my first interview this cycle and it was overall a good experience. I was accepted, but declined the acceptance. Evidently I hid my discomfort during the interview day pretty well as they thought I would be a good match for the school, and I did not reciprocate. I did have the conversation with several folks about whether I should attend LUCOM if it were my only acceptance. To put that in context, I'm about 10 years older than the average applicant, so the thought of delaying matriculation one more year was not something I considered lightly! Here were some of the red flags for me:

- The Associate Dean was describing Compass Groups (which, I think are a fantastic mentorship idea), and she mentioned how one of her students was going to move in with her fiancé. She described how she tried to "counsel" the student out of this idea. Coming from an extremely NON-traditional background, I had serious concerns about how I would be accepted at the school if they felt that a couple living together before marriage was a problem.

- I asked the question about how LUCOM handles religiously "controversial" medical treatment options, such as abortion. The answer I received was that they would try to persuade the patient to make the "right" choice first.

- I was asked multiple times in my interview about my religious beliefs, which made me quite uncomfortable. I know, I should have expected this. Furthermore, I was asked about what religious beliefs I would pass on to my potential future children. I spent 12 years in Catholic school, and my current religious beliefs are fairly non-traditional. I was wary of applying to religiously-affiliated schools to begin with, but I truly do appreciate LUCOM's focus on and dedication to service, which I hope is a common bond between all religious/non-religious beliefs.

- While we were waiting for our interview time, one of the members of the admissions staff struck up a conversation about how unfortunate it would be to have to treat transgender patients.

- Lastly, I don't think they have a cafeteria or food options in the building. This is a problem for me...

I will say that all the students we met were awesome and I would be happy to be classmates with any of them. Fortunately, I found a few other school options that are definitely a better fit for me.

 

[Major]

Hey, current student here. Maybe I can answer some of your questions from a first hand point of view rather than citing and re-posting what others have said on SDN. Couple quick things:

- I am an atheist here; not the only one; have never been pressured or felt targeted in anyway
- The only time I hear about creationism is when I come on SDN and see a few of you guys talking about it
- There are no restrictive policies unless you count dressing like an adult restrictive

I will answer any questions you have to hopefully dispel many of the unfounded rumors floating around here.

Are you (the med student study body as a whole) required to attend church service every week?

 

[jqueb29]

I believe in evolution. I came up out the trap, and now I rap.