Liberty University DO school

[dutchie000]

Does anyone know anything about this new DO school, like when it is projected to open? Does anyone know if it will have a Christian emphasis like Liberty University itself? I'm not exactly religious, so I don't know how that would work out for me.

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[costales]

See http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=879248

 

[dutchie000]

haha thanks, I was looking for a previous thread but couldn't find one

 

[MaximusMeridius]

.

 

[dutchie000]

The problem with that thread is the fact that it deteriorated so quickly into a free-for-all bashing everyone's religious (or lack there of) beliefs. I doubt that even Liberty will be able to evangelize much in a medical school curriculum. Anatomy is still anatomy, regardless of religious affiliation. I think the larger problem here is the fact that there will be yet another new medical school opening it's doors, but there are plenty of threads for that.

The problem with that being lack of residency?

 

[donkeykong1]

Liberty U. has Romney's stamp all over it now:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-speech--text/2012/05/14/gIQAaKcPPU_blog.html

 

[peppy]

The problem with that being lack of residency?

Yes, that's one huge problem with the uncontrolled proliferation of med schools. Another problem is that a lot of these new schools are not putting enough thought into making sure good clinical rotations are available to all these students.
Plus if more schools open, I think it's quite likely that more students who really aren't prepared for medical school will end up getting in and we'll have more problems with people racking up debt without having a degree to show for it. It's in everyone's best interests to maintain some standard instead of just opening more schools because they can.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Burn it.


Burn it to the ground.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The problem with that thread is the fact that it deteriorated so quickly into a free-for-all bashing everyone's religious (or lack there of) beliefs. I doubt that even Liberty will be able to evangelize much in a medical school curriculum. Anatomy is still anatomy, regardless of religious affiliation. I think the larger problem here is the fact that there will be yet another new medical school opening it's doors, but there are plenty of threads for that.

It's irrelevant, what's more annoying is that there will be another for-profit school that will be producing physicians that influence the public's opinion of DO's. It's disgraceful and takes away from the degree's value.

 

[Temperature101]

DO schools are gonna be just like pharmacy schools in 5 years. The DO degree will be worthless. They might only let DO doctors practice OMM just like in other countries.

 

[user3]

Not necessarily like pharmacy...Caribbean is probably the better description of what they could become (worst case scenario)

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Having more DO schools equates to losing more practicing rights? What?

DO is not going to become just OMM in the U.S.

For one thing the U.S. is quickly entering a time in which they're having to bring NPs/PAs in just to fill the PCP shortage. Since DOs mostly work in the primary care field, removing their practicing rights would only compound the problem.

 

[ruiner]

yeah no way they can take way do practicing rights at this point but all the new schools are probably not going to osteopathic physicians gain more rights in other countries.

liberty could go either way as far as religious requirements. As I understand it, touro pretty much just has minimal signs of it being a jewish school, some of the food choices and some extra days off for jewish holidays. there are many catholic universities with md schools (Loyola, Creighton, SLU, GT) and you would never know, but then there's loma linda which is very strict. i could see liberty being a little more on that side of the line.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's not the religious point that matters. It's the fact that it is a for profit institute and not a strong undergraduate research center. It's just some trashy online in majority school.
The reality is that DOs aren't in danger of losing their rights to practice formally. But they are severely in danger of losing their ability to safely attain residencies especially in the ACGME. And in all honesty the AOA match only has enough for half the DO students today.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

But it's regardless, COCA continues with its Walmart style of operation. If DO's don't stand up and force it to only open schools that have real parent institutes, that are non-profit, have research, and have the potential to establish great rotations and residencies then the DO degree will become a joke, it will retain a lot of stigma.

 

[ruiner]

For profit doesn't help, but that is a whole different topic. OP was asking about the christian emphasis the liberty do school might have.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

For profit doesn't help, but that is a whole different topic. OP was asking about the christian emphasis the liberty do school might have.

They probably will have a draconian one. All the people I know who go to Liberty are extremely passionate believers. But regardless, I'm not going to bother talking about that topic as I believe the school shouldn't be allowed to exist.

 

[DrCalculi]

This might end up like Oral Roberts University School of Medicine.

The proliferation is irresponsible and will result in further stratification among DO schools. PDs are a risk-averse bunch and they'll stick with the schools they know, based on their experience with previous graduates. The new schools will be viewed with suspicion for some time. In a few years' time, the question will be "DO, but from what school?" similar to "MD, but US or Caribbean?"

The right of DOs to practice medicine is enshrined in federal and state laws. DOs have become part of the American healthcare industry. Besides, nobody wants to see a repeat of the California debacle.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Does anyone actually know if this school is coming up? From the sound of it they said they haven't even received an application from this school and who knows if they would even approve such a thing.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

But it's regardless, COCA continues with its Walmart style of operation. If DO's don't stand up and force it to only open schools that have real parent institutes, that are non-profit, have research, and have the potential to establish great rotations and residencies then the DO degree will become a joke, it will retain a lot of stigma.

This is what scares me. DOs are simultaneously gaining ground and losing it, but if COCA continues like this we will be losing ground faster than gaining ground. Liberty opening a DO school is like University of Phoenix opening a law school. When the religious aspect to a school is so pronounced that it affects the school material and prevents them from teaching real, valid, falsifiable science, the school becomes a pathetic joke.

 

[DrCalculi]

Does anyone actually know if this school is coming up? From the sound of it they said they haven't even received an application from this school and who knows if they would even approve such a thing.

They still haven't applied yet. I'm shocked that my local beauty school hasn't applied:

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...eges-of-osteopathic-medicine-and-campuses.pdf

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is what scares me. DOs are simultaneously gaining ground and losing it, but if COCA continues like this we will be losing ground faster than gaining ground. Liberty opening a DO school is like University of Phoenix opening a law school. When the religious aspect to a school is so pronounced that it affects the school material and prevents them from teaching real, valid, falsifiable science, the school becomes a pathetic joke.

I honestly am not too worried about it being a strong Christian school. It's simply the fact that it as a school has none of the materials necessary to establish a halfway decent medical school.

 

[HM3]

This is what scares me. DOs are simultaneously gaining ground and losing it, but if COCA continues like this we will be losing ground faster than gaining ground. Liberty opening a DO school is like University of Phoenix opening a law school. When the religious aspect to a school is so pronounced that it affects the school material and prevents them from teaching real, valid, falsifiable science, the school becomes a pathetic joke.

It's not going to open.

 

[MakesSense]

This is what scares me. DOs are simultaneously gaining ground and losing it, but if COCA continues like this we will be losing ground faster than gaining ground. Liberty opening a DO school is like University of Phoenix opening a law school. When the religious aspect to a school is so pronounced that it affects the school material and prevents them from teaching real, valid, falsifiable science, the school becomes a pathetic joke.

I am currently at a DO school with a religious affiliation probably as strong as Liberty, albeit not nearly as vocal. It does not affect the nature nor the quality of the instruction. The religious aspect of the University is noted but it is not "pushed down" any students throat. It is there IF the student is interested.

Bottom line-every DO school has to abide by Federal and COCA guidelines. If Liberty ever gets to a pre-accrediation phase, then they will have to abide by the same guidelines as any other DO school.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's not going to open.

Coca opened up 3 schools this year, all of which are no-named and relatively weak institutes. Why do you think they wouldn't give Liberty a DO school? Coca already showed that being for profit is not a barrier....

 

[TriagePreMed]

I am currently at a DO school with a religious affiliation probably as strong as Liberty, albeit not nearly as vocal. It does not affect the nature nor the quality of the instruction. The religious aspect of the University is noted but it is not "pushed down" any students throat. It is there IF the student is interested.

Bottom line-every DO school has to abide by Federal and COCA guidelines. If Liberty ever gets to a pre-accrediation phase, then they will have to abide by the same guidelines as any other DO school.

Does your school teach creationism and that the earth is 5k years old? If not, your school is not as crazy as Liberty. Religious affiliation is not a problem. It's religious infiltration into the science curriculum.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Coca opened up 3 schools this year, all of which are no-named and relatively weak institutes. Why do you think they wouldn't give Liberty a DO school? Coca already showed that being for profit is not a barrier....

They probably won't because they know they will run into BS with them all the time when they try to keep students from learning about birth control, abortion, etc. They are more of a liability than anything else.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They probably won't because they know they will run into BS with them all the time when they try to keep students from learning about birth control, abortion, etc. They are more of a liability than anything else.

I don't think this will be a problem. Linda Loma exists, Moral Oral existed, and even schools Gtown all are very strongly religious and do not teach these things. Liberty being religious is not a major barrier.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't think this will be a problem. Linda Loma exists, Moral Oral existed, and even schools Gtown all are very strongly religious and do not teach these things. Liberty being religious is not a major barrier.

But the religious schools that exist/ed are not the type that changed curriculum of science to fit their religious belief. None of those schools teaches creationism as science.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I am currently at a DO school with a religious affiliation probably as strong as Liberty, albeit not nearly as vocal. It does not affect the nature nor the quality of the instruction. The religious aspect of the University is noted but it is not "pushed down" any students throat. It is there IF the student is interested.

Bottom line-every DO school has to abide by Federal and COCA guidelines. If Liberty ever gets to a pre-accrediation phase, then they will have to abide by the same guidelines as any other DO school.

And you are in a new school.

It isn't the religious affiliation that I have a problem with. i could care less about religion. What I have a problem with is the fact that the religion itself denies a falsifiable science. If evolution isn't taught, it says "we don't believe that crap." If a school is willing to say that about one science, I question all of their science. Moreover, really valuable research is unlikely to come out of the school because doing too much medical research would eventually cross into their religious affiliation, and being that they are clearly more religious than scientific, the science will be inhibited. if you science and research model at the school is a joke, you cannot produce scientists or researchers.

not everyone is interested in research and clinicians are important, but at least the people from research facilities understand research and it's importance. the problem is that everyone expects everyone else to do something. if half of a school class makes one improvement, that is a ton of improvements over time. But if everyone in the class does nothing, that is a ton of wasted talent. and it isn't progressing medicine in any way shape or form. It is dead weight and anyone who comes out of the schools without the ability to move science forward is dead weight also.

and i haven't even talked about the fact that i wish schools like liberty should be banned from teaching science at all because they are poison to our children and our scientific community. how can a school teach scientific principles while simultaneously casting doubt on science? how can a school teach the scientific method when they turn around teach that if there is something you don't know, say god did it and move on. schools like this are emptying minds.

and adding a med school doesn't change anything with the school, it just makes me scared for the future of osteopathic schools, osteopathic medicine, and medicine in general. there aren't many things that get me furious, but putting untested ideas in a scientific classroom is one of them. and a school that does this is a mockery to higher education. and when you add a med school, it becomes a mockery.

 

[Temperature101]

It's not the religious point that matters. It's the fact that it is a for profit institute and not a strong undergraduate research center. It's just some trashy online in majority school.
The reality is that DOs aren't in danger of losing their rights to practice formally. But they are severely in danger of losing their ability to safely attain residencies especially in the ACGME. And in all honesty the AOA match only has enough for half the DO students today.

The religious stuff matter....If I am not mistaken...This is the school of the late Jerry Farwell...ie religious zealots who dont beleive in evolution. Certain aspect of evolution has to do with genetics. What they goona do then?...They are not gonna talk about them.

 

[MakesSense]

And you are in a new school.

It isn't the religious affiliation that I have a problem with. i could care less about religion. What I have a problem with is the fact that the religion itself denies a falsifiable science. If evolution isn't taught, it says "we don't believe that crap." If a school is willing to say that about one science, I question all of their science. Moreover, really valuable research is unlikely to come out of the school because doing too much medical research would eventually cross into their religious affiliation, and being that they are clearly more religious than scientific, the science will be inhibited. if you science and research model at the school is a joke, you cannot produce scientists or researchers.

not everyone is interested in research and clinicians are important, but at least the people from research facilities understand research and it's importance. the problem is that everyone expects everyone else to do something. if half of a school class makes one improvement, that is a ton of improvements over time. But if everyone in the class does nothing, that is a ton of wasted talent. and it isn't progressing medicine in any way shape or form. It is dead weight and anyone who comes out of the schools without the ability to move science forward is dead weight also.

and i haven't even talked about the fact that i wish schools like liberty should be banned from teaching science at all because they are poison to our children and our scientific community. how can a school teach scientific principles while simultaneously casting doubt on science? how can a school teach the scientific method when they turn around teach that if there is something you don't know, say god did it and move on. schools like this are emptying minds.

and adding a med school doesn't change anything with the school, it just makes me scared for the future of osteopathic schools, osteopathic medicine, and medicine in general. there aren't many things that get me furious, but putting untested ideas in a scientific classroom is one of them. and a school that does this is a mockery to higher education. and when you add a med school, it becomes a mockery.

I am at a new school where the faculty average over 20 years experience teaching at medical schools, including Harvard, and know how to teach in medical schools. It has met every COCA step as soon as it could be done. This is at a school with a strong Baptist affiliation.


It appears that you have made the assumption that religion and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Some of the great scientists of the past were deeply religious. They are not 2 different coins, but different sides of the same coin.

This looks like a discussion that i would like to follow closely, but my break time from studying is over.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The religious stuff matter....If I am not mistaken...This is the school of the late Jerry Farwell...ie religious zealots who dont beleive in evolution. Certain aspect of evolution has to do with genetics. What they goona do then?...They are not gonna talk about them.

Genetics is a two week class in medical school. Furthermore most of old-earth creationists usually believe in molecular microevolution. Regardless it will be an issue, but one that compared to the many others brought up is minuscule.

 

[Temperature101]

I dont understand why people are against for profit med schools?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I am at a new school where the faculty average over 20 years experience teaching at medical schools, including Harvard, and know how to teach in medical schools. It has met every COCA step as soon as it could be done. This is at a school with a strong Baptist affiliation.


It appears that you have made the assumption that religion and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Some of the great scientists of the past were deeply religious. They are not 2 different coins, but different sides of the same coin.

This looks like a discussion that i would like to follow closely, but my break time from studying is over.

i don't assume religion and science are mutually exclusive. many religions embrace science. my children attend a catholic school.

there are always exceptions to rules, and we will see if WCU will end up being one. i am not saying that your faculty aren't fully capable of providing good education. i am not saying the school isn't going to put out great doctors.

i am more referring to the broader umbrella of medicine and in regards to liberty. I am not fully sure on the baptist creation/evolution stance. but I do know liberty's stance and the school. honestly though. how can a school offer a creation studies degree and a biology degree.

here is the purpose of the creation studies major taken directly from Liberty's website:

The purpose of the Center for Creation Studies is to promote the development of a consistent biblical view of origins in our students. The Center seeks to equip students to defend their faith in the creation account in Genesis using science, reason, and the Scriptures.

How can one expect this school to create decent scientists. Much like a doctor smoking, I am sure many will disagree with me, but there is contradictory info that the school pushes.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I dont understand why people are against for profit med schools?

because they are new and against everything else. it is also makes it look all about money.

but a for profit school could provide better students because the whole "private sector theory" but they commonly don't. They usually get greedy and go the way of money, and this is apparent with University of Phoenix, DeVry, and many others.

Like we see in healthcare in general, when things move for profit, the institutions lose their way very quickly. for profit schools could be different, but the statistics are against it.

 

[Temperature101]

i don't assume religion and science are mutually exclusive. many religions embrace science. my children attend a catholic school.

there are always exceptions to rules, and we will see if WCU will end up being one. i am not saying that your faculty aren't fully capable of providing good education. i am not saying the school isn't going to put out great doctors.

i am more referring to the broader umbrella of medicine and in regards to liberty. I am not fully sure on the baptist creation/evolution stance. but I do know liberty's stance and the school. honestly though. how can a school offer a creation studies degree and a biology degree.

here is the purpose of the creation studies major taken directly from Liberty's website:



How can one expect this school to create decent scientists. Much like a doctor smoking, I am sure many will disagree with me, but there is contradictory info that the school pushes.

I dont disagree with your assessment...This school really offers a degree in creation...All I can say: WOW.

 

[MakesSense]

i don't assume religion and science are mutually exclusive. many religions embrace science. my children attend a catholic school.

there are always exceptions to rules, and we will see if WCU will end up being one. i am not saying that your faculty aren't fully capable of providing good education. i am not saying the school isn't going to put out great doctors.

i am more referring to the broader umbrella of medicine and in regards to liberty. I am not fully sure on the baptist creation/evolution stance. but I do know liberty's stance and the school. honestly though. how can a school offer a creation studies degree and a biology degree.

.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Thanks for the clarification.

Does it make sense now? Har har har ... okay, I'm not too funny

 

[MakesSense]

Does it make sense now? Har har har ... okay, I'm not too funny

I know I am in trouble now because I do find this amusing!

 

[DocEspana]

But it's regardless, COCA continues with its Walmart style of operation. If DO's don't stand up and force it to only open schools that have real parent institutes, that are non-profit, have research, and have the potential to establish great rotations and residencies then the DO degree will become a joke, it will retain a lot of stigma.

Just going to point out that the lcme is opening schools *faster* then coca is right now. Some of this driven by the desire to increase the osteopsthic footprint as quickly as possible before the lcme schools saturate the market (which is the unstated goal of the lcme right now. Fill the market, pressure fmgs and us-imgs to minimal influence). You really can't expand if the acgme (md + do) market is full since we do rely on it exist to justify 50% of the stusents we train.

Note: I still agree with your point. Just fleshing it out to a new level. COCA has appatently decided having a stronger numeric influence is a rapidly closing opportunity and one that justifies the means. Quality can be improved once the numbers are set.

 

[Nymphicus]

Note: I still agree with your point. Just fleshing it out to a new level. COCA has appatently decided having a stronger numeric influence is a rapidly closing opportunity and one that justifies the means. Quality can be improved once the numbers are set.

 

[peppy]

In a few years' time, the question will be "DO, but from what school?" similar to "MD, but US or Caribbean?"

If we're lucky, people will still make that distinction. Knowing how some people are quick to generalize, I suspect the much more likely outcome is that our allopathic colleagues will think badly of all DOs.

In addition to the example of law school and pharmacy school showing us the perils of opening too many schools too quickly, in our own profession we have the example of the Flexner Report. Our profession's leaders should know better than to let this happen!

 

[SoulinNeed]

If we're lucky, people will still make that distinction. Knowing how some people are quick to generalize, I suspect the much more likely outcome is that our allopathic colleagues will think badly of all DOs.

In addition to the example of law school and pharmacy school showing us the perils of opening too many schools too quickly, in our own profession we have the example of the Flexner Report. Our profession's leaders should know better than to let this happen!

The number of doctors is determined by residency spots, not medical students (and the number of DO+MD US graduates will still be less than the total ACGME residencies, at the current rate of expansion, even up to 2020). As someone who previously was pursuing law, it's a very different situation.

Also, people need to realize that MD for-profit schools are also opening up. Although, I still think a DO school at Liberty sounds fishy. However, they have not even submitted their COCA application, so let's wait to see what happens.

 

[user3]

The number of doctors is determined by residency spots, not medical students (and the number of DO+MD US graduates will still be less than the total ACGME residencies, at the current rate of expansion, even up to 2020). As someone who previously was pursuing law, it's a very different situation.

Also, people need to realize that MD for-profit schools are also opening up. Although, I still think a DO school at Liberty sounds fishy. However, they have not even submitted their COCA application, so let's wait to see what happens.

But how is the LCME going to give the green light to for-profit schools? I thought it was specifically banned in the accreditation standards.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Liberty hasn't even submitted their application. This entire thread has just been speculation.

MDs still outnumber DOs by 3:1. The PCP shortage that we have almost necessitates more DO schools opening up. Yes I understand it's the number of residency slots but there's still >500 PCP slots unfilled each year and this is with IMGs still taking spots.

 

[costales]

But how is the LCME going to give the green light to for-profit schools? I thought it was specifically banned in the accreditation standards.

Their rule (IS-2) says "A medical education program should be, or be part of, a not-for-profit institution legally authorized under applicable law to provide medical education leading to the M.D. degree."
I suppose the for-profit folks and their lawyers have figured out a way to attach themselves to a nonprofit so they can qualify under this rule (i.e. the "be part of" rule).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The number of doctors is determined by residency spots, not medical students (and the number of DO+MD US graduates will still be less than the total ACGME residencies, at the current rate of expansion, even up to 2020). As someone who previously was pursuing law, it's a very different situation.

Also, people need to realize that MD for-profit schools are also opening up. Although, I still think a DO school at Liberty sounds fishy. However, they have not even submitted their COCA application, so let's wait to see what happens.

Seeing at the LCME has banned for-profit schools I doubt it.

 

[donkeykong1]

Seeing at the LCME has banned for-profit schools I doubt it.

where did u see that? palm beach and cali. northstate are still in process and haven't been rejected.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

where did u see that? palm beach and cali. northstate are still in process and haven't been rejected.

It's in their charter. They are in the process because the schools are probably being given the chance to switch business models to non-profit.