Lifestyle of a neurosurgeon (academic & private)

[DHT]

anyone have any advice on who these "family-friendly" residency programs are? thanks.

Look into Cincinnati, Vandy, and Michigan. Not a complete list I'm sure, but I've heard good things about those places.

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[DoItAnyway]

This is a ridiculously great thread. Just the kind of thing that SDN is made for. Thank you to all the posters.

 

[Surgeonizer]

anyone have any advice on who these "family-friendly" residency programs are? thanks.

Michigan, Mayo, Barrow, Johns Hopkins, Cincinnati, and Vandy

 

[Handinhand]

How's UW Madison's program stand up against others?

 

[Beta Cell]

Minimalist sounds like he was a resident at UCSF. Berger and McDermott are two attendings at UCSF. I shadowed McDermott quite a bit last summer and he was really a cool guy. Don't quote me on this, but I think he told me in passing that he worked 60-70 hours per week (again, I may be remembering that incorrectly). Every single resident I spoke to seemed tired but, at the same time, very happy with their choice of specialty.

This may be off-topic, but I noticed that UCSF had an abnormally large population of MD/PhD neurosurgery residents. That was the only thing I found kind of odd with the program; at least half of their residents had two doctoral degrees. I also didn't get to meet many other attendings other than McDermott, but if they are even half as easy-going and good at what they do, I imagine UCSF is a great place to work.

As you can tell, I'm a pretty big UCSF fan .

 

[no name please]

..And I just glanced through this thread and wanted to sort out some misconceptions.

I work about 8 am to 6 pm 5 days a week, with an additional 5 hours of random time over that (occassional weekend or late night), but I may be an exception because I work for a VA hospital.

Most of the people I know in academics start at 7 or 7:30 am and work until 6 pm 5 days a week with an additional 5-6 hours of random time over that.

Sorry I don't know much about private practice (or salaries, except my own).

 

[psycho-matic]

Does anyone know about the residency program at the University of Arkansas - Medical Sciences? A doctor considered by many to be the "father of neurosurgery" works there. Seems like that would be a good place to train...but what are the hours like?

 

[Spine Specialist]

Does anyone know about the residency program at the University of Arkansas - Medical Sciences? A doctor considered by many to be the "father of neurosurgery" works there. Seems like that would be a good place to train...but what are the hours like?

Father of neurosurgery is Harvey Cushing? No? may be he is grand father?

 

[eljefe]

Last time I saw Harvey Cushing he was buried at Lakeview Cemetery in Cleveland

 

[DDMF]

Although Im not sure where everyone gets there info from Whether its statistics or a friend,but I know first hand...... I am a wife of a well known NeuroSurgeon who graduated from MIT and Harvard, Its a very rewarding field, and he is not bitter at all. He loves what he does and I support him. Yes you may not be with your family every minute of the day but he does spend time with us. I am a happy wife and he is an excellent Dr. He even makes time inbetween patients in the OR to call home..He does have his private practice and I myself am a student and we still get to enjoy time together. He works anywhere from 60-65hrs a week and does his rounds on the weekends. He did make lots of sacrifices when he first started but it gets better. I dont want to put our income out there but he brings home well over 700,000+. Along with juggling his family he also makes time to do Research. Maybe being a Harvard Grad and top of his class has a lot to do with what he makes and how much free time he has. So good luck to you all in Neuro, dont let the the stories scare you. As long as you have a loyal loving wife you can achieve anything and compromise the rest..Good luck to you all

 

[Yamen1q]

Although Im not sure where everyone gets there info from Whether its statistics or a friend,but I know first hand...... I am a wife of a well known NeuroSurgeon who graduated from MIT and Harvard, Its a very rewarding field, and he is not bitter at all. He loves what he does and I support him. Yes you may not be with your family every minute of the day but he does spend time with us. I am a happy wife and he is an excellent Dr. He even makes time inbetween patients in the OR to call home..He does have his private practice and I myself am a student and we still get to enjoy time together. He works anywhere from 60-65hrs a week and does his rounds on the weekends. He did make lots of sacrifices when he first started but it gets better. I dont want to put our income out there but he brings home well over 700,000+. Along with juggling his family he also makes time to do Research. Maybe being a Harvard Grad and top of his class has a lot to do with what he makes and how much free time he has. So good luck to you all in Neuro, dont let the the stories scare you. As long as you have a loyal loving wife you can achieve anything and compromise the rest..Good luck to you all

You give me hope.

 

[beaverfetus]

Maybe being a Harvard Grad and top of his class has a lot to do with what he makes and how much free time he has.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

edit

 

[juiceman311]

I love cardiothoracic surgery. My fiance has known this since the first day we met. I have worked with prominent cardiothoracic surgeons. I have done tons of published work in CTS. When push came to shove, I had a decision to make. The brutal lifestyle of a CTS or something less demanding but still exciting that would leave me with more time for my family. Ultimately I could not sacrifice my family for a job. My successes to date (which are minimal) are a direct result of my upbringing and in my opinion that was because my family made time. So I chose Urology. I won't lie though, for a fleeting moment during my neurosurgery rotation I considered changing my declaration. But I couldn't bring myself to it and didn't dwell on it. There comes a point in the decision process that you have to be brutally honest with yourself. I couldn't do CTS because my mentor and attending was always meeting with me on Sundays to discuss our research and then running off to the hospital. Sunday is 1PM baseball day with the wifey.

 

[kitsunepixie]

Does anyone know about the residency program at the University of Arkansas - Medical Sciences? A doctor considered by many to be the "father of neurosurgery" works there. Seems like that would be a good place to train...but what are the hours like?

That would be Dr. Yarsargil, an amazing neurosurgeon who still operates like a fiend despite his advanced age. I had the honor of meeting him this interview season and hearing delightful stories of his eccentricities from the residents. It was disappointing that the Arkansas program is in great turmoil right now due to Al-Mefty leaving, but hopefully they'll pull themselves back up.

 

[psycho-matic]

That would be Dr. Yarsargil, an amazing neurosurgeon who still operates like a fiend despite his advanced age. I had the honor of meeting him this interview season and hearing delightful stories of his eccentricities from the residents. It was disappointing that the Arkansas program is in great turmoil right now due to Al-Mefty leaving, but hopefully they'll pull themselves back up.

And now that he has left, I know of at least a couple residents who have went elsewhere...one to Chicago...I knew his fiance well (also a neuro nurse) and according to another neuro nurse I talked to the residents aren't getting proper training because evidently Al-Mefty and some other big name left as well. This really bites for UAMS. Before this happened they would have been my first choice if I wanted to do neurosurgery. We just got a new department chairmen so hopefully they can get things going again.

I got to see Yarsargil operate. He looks so old and frail - I was amazed at deftly he moved his hands and how precise and nimble he is.

 

[Jihad]

I have read through this entire thread as it was intensely interesting. I also have a deep interest in neuroscience and surgery. I will have some tough decisions to make through med school.

To those of you who are in neurosurg residencies or are about to begin, did you begin med school with the idea of becoming a NS or did you gain interest in rotation?

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

I haven't heard the best things about Hopkins residency for surgery, can anyone comment on this? just curious

 

[Ilovelamp]

My big question is how are the hours of neurosurgery different from any other surgical specialty? I feel like all surgeons work crazy hours and it doesn't sound like neurosurgery is worse than any of the others...or am I mistaken?

 

[eyesupply]

In the end, none of this discussion really matters b/c if you really want to do NS, the pay should be at the bottom of the list.

.

This is the Communist Party line that politicians and insurance companies want neurosurgeons to believe so they can cut pay.

Neurosurgeons should be interested in neurosurgery and money. They should not be so worried about money that it clouds judgment but they should also not be sheep either.

Try telling the CEO of a company who makes $10M or $50M that their mission is to save a troubled company and they should worry about workers' jobs and lives, not their own pay. Try telling a lawyer that they should not worry about billable hours and should take on a case not based on ability to pay.

I'm not a neurosurgeon but if my brain needs surgery, I want someone who is well paid to do it.

 

[unitedpanther7]

d

 

[Ilovelamp]

How are functional neurosurgeons when it comes to lifestyle? The hospital I'm working at is really making me think twice about applying to neurosurgery....if the 7 years of 80hrs/week isn't enough time commitment, it seems the attendings are working just as much if not more...I really want to have a life...

 

[drowsy12]

My big question is how are the hours of neurosurgery different from any other surgical specialty? I feel like all surgeons work crazy hours and it doesn't sound like neurosurgery is worse than any of the others...or am I mistaken?

yeah this is the question i have. the hours cant be that much different? there is only so much room to differ, you know?

 

[HComplex]

Along the same lines as the two posts above, with many neurosurgery programs incorporating a research year (or two), is neurosurgery that much more of a struggle than a five year general surgery residency? I am not trying to piss off anyone or discredit any specialty, but two years of research seems pretty laid back compared to 80+ hours a week in the hospital.

 

[kenneth.c.liu]

Along the same lines as the two posts above, with many neurosurgery programs incorporating a research year (or two), is neurosurgery that much more of a struggle than a five year general surgery residency? I am not trying to piss off anyone or discredit any specialty, but two years of research seems pretty laid back compared to 80+ hours a week in the hospital.

I think the perception that neurosurgical residents work harder than any other residents is founded in the fact that they are fewer residents per year in neurosurgery than other services, despite the fact that the census is about the same. Add to that the acuity of our patients, and our residents can be very busy. Another way to look at this is the pager log. The two busiest pagers given any 24 hour period are usually: 1) the oncall radiology resident, and 2) the neurosurgery consult pager.

To answer the above question, research may be cush, but research residents are often pulled in to cover cases and call. In addition, because of their "less busy" schedule, they are also often tapped to give talks at conference or cover things like tumor board.

And as for lifestyle, the bottom line is, it's whatever you want it to be. I know a neurosurgeon that works 10 days a month and another that's been on call 24/7 since 1975. You'll be able to find a job that fits your priorities without any difficulty. That being said, revenue generation in neurosurgery is production-based. The busier you are, the more you will make.

 

[Guero]

How are functional neurosurgeons when it comes to lifestyle? The hospital I'm working at is really making me think twice about applying to neurosurgery....if the 7 years of 80hrs/week isn't enough time commitment, it seems the attendings are working just as much if not more...I really want to have a life...

I can't comment on those in the private sector, but as far as academia, functional neurosurgery isn't much different from general neurosurgery. I've been doing some research with a Vandy neurosurgeon for over a year now and have shadowed him on several occasions. He still shares responsibility for covering trauma, spine, tumor, etc., as well as call. I'm not sure if it's q4wks or q2months, though. The main difference is that he gets ALL of the DBS cases. But since they're comparatively few and far between, most of his compensation emanates from the usual smorgasbord of weekly cases. Also keep in mind how experimental most functional procedures are: Not many insurance companies will reimburse for experimental Tx. He does have a weekly lab meeting and occasionally writes a grant or two a year, but nothing like your typical non-surgical physician scientist (e.g., 4-8 grants submitted each year, 80% research 20% clinical).

Did that help?

 

[Ilovelamp]

Not to be a Debbie downer, but here is what I saw during my recent subI in neurosurgery. 6 attendings. 1 married. The rest single or divorced. Each are putting in the range of 80-100 hours/week except for the one that is married. He puts in about 50-60 but he has carved himself out a nice niche in epilepsy surgery. They all drive very nice and very expensive cars. Some are more bitter than others, but they all absolutely love their jobs and what they do.

 

[naus]

Although Im not sure where everyone gets there info from Whether its statistics or a friend,but I know first hand...... I am a wife of a well known NeuroSurgeon who graduated from MIT and Harvard, Its a very rewarding field, and he is not bitter at all. He loves what he does and I support him. Yes you may not be with your family every minute of the day but he does spend time with us. I am a happy wife and he is an excellent Dr. He even makes time inbetween patients in the OR to call home..He does have his private practice and I myself am a student and we still get to enjoy time together. He works anywhere from 60-65hrs a week and does his rounds on the weekends. He did make lots of sacrifices when he first started but it gets better. I dont want to put our income out there but he brings home well over 700,000+. Along with juggling his family he also makes time to do Research. Maybe being a Harvard Grad and top of his class has a lot to do with what he makes and how much free time he has. So good luck to you all in Neuro, dont let the the stories scare you. As long as you have a loyal loving wife you can achieve anything and compromise the rest..Good luck to you all

This sounds like BS (from a one-post poster too), unless he's only doing spine cases.

 

[Gret]

Just wondering, but Neurosurgeons make a great sum of money, but how long does it take to pay of collage loans? and what is the average price of them?

 

[addy]

Just wondering, but Neurosurgeons make a great sum of money, but how long does it take to pay of collage loans? and what is the average price of them?

depends on how much the collage costs-- sure, you could just buy one, but I like to sit down with my family and SO and make one with them. 20-30 bucks tops and that's with the nice kind of book streamers and giant bedazzled letters saying "LIVE. LAUGH. LOVE" in the background. You could pay for that on a resident's salary, shouldn't take years.

 

[Guero]

Just wondering, but Neurosurgeons make a great sum of money, but how long does it take to pay of collage loans? and what is the average price of them?

The average med student graduates with approximately $150,000 in loans. The average early resident (PGY1-3) salaries begin around $50,000 and usually top out at PGY-6 around $60,000, cost of living usually considered (e.g., $52.4k for an internal medicine PGY1 in Nashville, TN vs $59.7k for a PGY1 in San Francisco, CA, which includes a housing stipend).

As far as paying loans back, it's different for each student depending on total sum of principle AND interest at the time of initiating repayment, personal living expense and lifestyle desires, and how long one wishes to pay; which boils down to how much superfluous interest you're willing to pay in the end to reap more money up front during residency.

The take home is that you have nothing to worry about if you complete a residency, but especially well reimbursed residencies like NS. I'll have nearly $400k in undergrad and medicine loans by the time I finish residency. I'd have absolutely no worries going into residency if I matched NS. And I'd just live differently if I end up matching to a less well reimbursed residency. "I've never met a poor physician," was literally what an attending said to a group of us yesterday when going on a rant about student loans. GL

 

[Guero]

The average med student graduates with approximately $150,000 in loans. The average early resident (PGY1-3) salaries begin around $50,000 and usually top out at PGY-6 around $60,000, cost of living usually considered (e.g., $52.4k for an internal medicine PGY1 in Nashville, TN vs $59.7k for a PGY1 in San Francisco, CA, which includes a housing stipend).

As far as paying loans back, it's different for each student depending on total sum of principle AND interest at the time of initiating repayment, personal living expense and lifestyle desires, and how long one wishes to pay; which boils down to how much superfluous interest you're willing to pay in the end to reap more money up front during residency.

The take home is that you have nothing to worry about if you complete a residency, but especially well reimbursed residencies like NS. I'll have nearly $400k in undergrad and medicine loans by the time I finish residency. I'd have absolutely no worries going into residency if I matched NS. And I'd just live differently if I end up matching to a less well reimbursed residency. "I've never met a poor physician," was literally what an attending said to a group of us yesterday when going on a rant about student loans. GL

There are also student loan reimbursement recruitment programs and ways to negotiate a separate student loan reimbursement clause into your contract once you finish residency and begin prospecting your potential private or academic practices.