Lines and BP cuffs on arms with lymph node dissections.

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Ignatius J

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Fact or fiction that you can't start an IV or use a Bp cuff on that side?

This is something I've never investigated and properly looked into but it was a pain the ass for a difficult IV access patient today.

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Fiction. I usually don't just to humor the patient/nurse that freaks out about it. It's rarely an issue, but did have to give one woman the "it's either IV on that side or no surgery" shpiel because of a similar difficult access issue.
 
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Fact or fiction that you can't start an IV or use a Bp cuff on that side?

This is something I've never investigated and properly looked into but it was a pain the ass for a difficult IV access patient today.
I have had this discussion with one of our best surgeons. She said that, if it was just a sentinel node, go ahead and use the arm as if nothing had happened. However, if there were more nodes removed, stay away from it.

I usually try using the other arm, regardless.
 
Preventative recommendations for lymphedema (adapted from the NCI, The Royal Marsden Hospital and NLN (2, 3, 4).

Keep skin and nails clean and cared for to prevent infection:
  • Use cream or lotion to keep the skin moist
  • Treat small cuts or breaks in skin with an antibacterial ointment
  • Avoid needle sticks of any type into the limb (arm or leg) with lymphedema. This includes vaccinations, blood drawing, intravenous lines and acupuncture.
  • Use a thimble for sewing
  • Avoid testing bath or cooking water using the limb with lymphedema
  • Wear gloves when gardening and cooking
  • Wear sunscreen and shoes when outdoors.
  • Cut toe nails straight across and see a podiatrist as needed.
  • Keep feet clean and dry and wear cotton socks.
  • Preferably use an electric razor to remove unwanted body hair (under-arms and legs), do not use razor blades.
  • Use an insect- repellent to avoid bites.
Avoid blocking- the flow of fluids through the body:
  • Do not cross legs when sitting
  • Change sitting position at least every 30 minutes
  • Wear only loose jewelry and clothes without tight bands or elastic
  • Do not carry handbags on the arm with lymphedema
  • Do not use a blood pressure cuff on the arm with lymphedema
  • Do not use elastic bandages or stockings with tight bands.
  • Try to avoid extremes of heat such as saunas or ice packs.
  • Try to keep your weight within the normal range for your height.
Keep blood from pooling in the affected limb:
  • Keep the limb with lymphedema raised higher than the heart when possible
  • Do not swing the limb quickly in circles or let the limb hang down.
  • Do not apply heat to the limb.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652571/
 
This is perhaps the most common preventative measure for patients at risk for developing lymphedema and is based on the concept that these injures may lead to infection and hence development or exacerbation of lymphedema. Most hospitals recommend this even in patients who have undergone sentinel lymph node biopsy. Patients are often designated with armbands and other measures to avoid accidental or inadvertent blood draws/needle sticks. Patients and clinicians often go to great lengths to adhere to this recommendation by performing blood draws from foot veins or having central venous catheters placed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652571/
 



Review Article | March 15, 2012 | Cancer Complications, Breast Cancer, Oncology Journal, Survivorship
By Sarah A. Mclaughlin, MD
Reviews
Lymphedema: Still a Problem Without an Answer
Lymphedema Prevention and Early Intervention: A Worthy Goal


Lymphedema is a feared complication of cancer treatment and one that negatively impacts survivorship. The incidence of breast cancer–related lymphedema ranges from 6% to 70%, but lymphedema may be a common and under-reported morbidity. No standard guidelines for its diagnosis and assessment exist. Although the true etiology of lymphedema remains unknown, radiation, chemotherapy, type of breast surgery, and extent of axillary surgery are commonly cited risk factors. However, the relationship between the number of nodes removed and the risk of lymphedema is not clearly correlated. Clinical trials are focusing on ways to reduce the need for axillary dissection even in the setting of a positive sentinel node, to help minimize axillary morbidity. Risk-reduction practices, including avoidance of skin puncture and blood pressures in the ipsilateral upper extremity, and precautionary behaviors such as wearing compression garments during air travel continue to be advocated by the medical and survivor communities, despite a lack of rigorous evidence supporting their benefit. Emerging data support exercise in at-risk and affected women with lymphedema when started gradually and increased cautiously.

- See more at: http://www.cancernetwork.com/cancer...-separating-fact-fiction#sthash.ZiUMh1ys.dpuf
 
A recent study by Goldberg et al suggests that it is not the number of lymph nodes removed but instead the degree of dissection and disruption of the lymphatic system that results in lymphedema.[22] The authors reviewed 600 women having SLNB with a median follow-up of 5 years and found an overall incidence of lymphedema of 5%. When stratifying the data according to the number of nodes removed, they found no significant association between the mean, median, or range of number of nodes excised and lymphedema (P = .93). Furthermore, the authors completed a subset analysis of the women having more than 10 lymph nodes removed at SLNB. None of these women developed lymphedema. Interestingly, when these SLNB patients having > 10 nodes removed were compared with a separate group of women having 10 to 17 nodes removed at ALND, 11% of the ALND patients had measured lymphedema (P = .04). The fact that women having more than 10 nodes removed during SLNB did not develop lymphedema but women with the same number of nodes removed after ALND did reaffirms that the relationship between the nodes removed and lymphedema is complex. Perhaps it is the relative magnitude of lymphatic destruction and individual patient ability to form collateral lymphatic channels, rather than the number of nodes removed, that influences lymphedema risk. For example, a patient with many nodes removed at SLNB and no finding of lymphedema may have more lymphatic collaterals and therefore will have suffered relatively less lymphatic disruption despite a larger than “normal” number of SLNs removed. On the other hand, women having ALND and a relatively small number of total nodes excised may have suffered an overall greater degree of lymphatic disruption and therefore develop lymphedema. Unfortunately, the number of nodes within each patient’s nodal basin and the patient’s ability to protect or form new lymphatic collaterals during or after treatments is unknown. Therefore, simply the number of nodes removed may be insufficient to determine lymphedema risk. - See more at: http://www.cancernetwork.com/cancer...ng-fact-fiction#sthash.ZiUMh1ys.aAK4IzVv.dpuf
 
So, Blade, a woman shows up with nice juicy veins in that arm but absolutely nothing anywhere else. Maybe some small veins that are pretty deep by ultrasound. Having, I dunno, a pelvic EUA and D&C/endometrial biopsy, or an inguinal hernia. Some 45min procedure. You'd do an awake central line before placing an IV in that arm?
 
So, Blade, a woman shows up with nice juicy veins in that arm but absolutely nothing anywhere else. Maybe some small veins that are pretty deep by ultrasound. Having, I dunno, a pelvic EUA and D&C/endometrial biopsy, or an inguinal hernia. Some 45min procedure. You'd do an awake central line before placing an IV in that arm?

U/S guided peripheral IV placement in the "safe" upper extremity. If that is unsuccessful (rare) then I would consider a small peripheral IV in the extremity which had the Sentinel lymph node biopsy provided she was at least 5 years out and had no lymphedema whatsover.
I do not place peripheral IVs in extremities which had more than 1-2 lymph nodes removed or had an Axillary lymph node dissection.
 
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When in doubt, it should be decided together with the patient, after a detailed discussion about options, risks and benefits.
 
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U/S guided peripheral IV placement in the "safe" upper extremity. If that is unsuccessful (rare) then I would consider a small peripheral IV in the extremity which had the Sentinel lymph node biopsy provided she was at least 5 years out and had no lymphedema whatsover.
I do not place peripheral IVs in extremities which had more than 1-2 lymph nodes removed or had an Axillary lymph node dissection.

This was exactly my scenario yesterday. This lady had nothing, and I mean nothing in her right extremity. Couldn't use the left upper extremity because of lymph node dissection. Ultrasound in the AC revealed nothing either. Couldn't even see a deep brachial running along with the artery.

I lucked out and got a saphenous but not sure what I would have done if I weren't so lucky.

The big question is: is this a theoretical risk or an evidence-based risk?

Are there any case reports of lymphedema after an IV placement? what is the mechanism of action? How can blood flow through an extremity fine but a small puncture upstream with inflowing fluids causes lymphedema?
 
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This was exactly my scenario yesterday. This lady had nothing, and I mean nothing in her right extremity. Couldn't use the left upper extremity because of lymph node dissection. Ultrasound in the AC revealed nothing either. Couldn't even see a deep brachial running along with the artery.

I lucked out and got a saphenous but not sure what I would have done if I weren't so lucky.

The big question is: is this a theoretical risk or an evidence-based risk?

Are there any case reports of lymphedema after an IV placement? what is the mechanism of action? How can blood flow through an extremity fine but a small puncture upstream with inflowing fluids causes lymphedema?

I had this discussion with one of the breast surgeons a few weeks ago. I don't know the research, but she said that lymphedema can happen pretty much at any time in the 4-5 years following dissection, but she does not worry about IV sticks assuming it's not going to be a large gauge or large volume infusion (RIC in the A/C used for 4 units of prbc etc) and that the IV is coming out in a day or two. She did not have a problem with placing 18 or smaller IV in the affected extremity assuming it's as distal as possible, i.e. not in A/C, upper extremity brachial, cephalic, basilic etc.

As far as the mechanism, I don't think it's the fluid anyone is worried about, but rather the risk of inflammation/infection/phlebitis precipitating lymphedema. Probably wouldn't be unreasonable to use chlorhex and sterile gloves if you have to stick an affected extremity.


Most of the data is retrospective, old, and very poor:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652571/
"
Avoidance of needle sticks
This is perhaps the most common preventative measure for patients at risk for developing lymphedema and is based on the concept that these injures may lead to infection and hence development or exacerbation of lymphedema. Most hospitals recommend this even in patients who have undergone sentinel lymph node biopsy. Patients are often designated with armbands and other measures to avoid accidental or inadvertent blood draws/needle sticks. Patients and clinicians often go to great lengths to adhere to this recommendation by performing blood draws from foot veins or having central venous catheters placed.

The historical source of this recommendation probably dates back to Halstead who in 1921, hypothesised that post-surgical infection or infection was the underlying cause of swelling of the arm following breast cancer surgery 11. Unfortunately, the vast majority of evidence that opposes or supports this recommendation is of poor scientific quality (level 4 or 5). Most reports are small series and anecdotal observations. For example, in a retrospective study of 79 patients treated with breast cancer, Villasor’s level 3 study reported that 3 patients developed lymphedema immediately after venipuncture of the affected arm and based on this finding proposed that venipuncture of the affected arm should be avoided.12. Similarly, Britton and Nelson in 1962 performed a level 4 retrospective study to identify etiological factors for 114 patients who developed lymphedema after radical mastectomy and reported that 53% of these patients had a history of recurrent cellulitis following either an insect bite, cat scratch, needle or thorn prick with a marked increase in swelling or pain in their arm 13. They concluded that any mode of bacterial entry could trigger development of cellulitis and lymphedema leading to the recommendation of avoiding venipuncture and meticulous skin care to avoid development or exacerbation of lymphedema. Interestingly, this is the only reference in the literature that we encountered reporting a potential link between needle sticks and infection and appears to be the only evidence for the underlying rationale of this recommendation. A level 5 study by Smith and colleagues reported that 10 patients referred to the lymphedema service over a 2 year period reported a direct correlation with venipuncture and the onset of new swelling in their arms 14. Similarly, in an unusual level 4 report, Brennan et al described a case of a 78 year old woman who developed lymphedema 30 years after a left radical mastectomy after performing needle sticks for blood monitoring for her newly diagnosed diabetes 15. Other studies have never been published but were rather only reported at scientific conventions. Foldi, et al cite Harlow and colleagues at the 18th convention of the International Society of Lymphology (ISL) 2001, in which they reported a significantly increased rate of lymphedema in a group of 252 patients after venipuncture. No details or other data were provided 1.

Clark, Sitzia and Harlow performed the only level 2 prospective observational study in 2004 examining the incidence and risk factors (including hospital skin puncture) for arm lymphedema in patients with breast cancer 16. They measured limb circumference pre-operatively and at regular time periods post-operatively in 188 women who had undergone treatment for breast cancer. The authors reported that 8/18 (44%) patients who had any needle stick developed lymphedema as compared with 31/170 (18%) patients who did not have venipuncture, concluding that skin puncture statistically significantly increased the risk of lymphedema 16. The authors, however, did not report the timing of lymphedema development in relation to venipuncture and did not evaluate the effect of potential confounding variables that may alter the rate of lymphedema. In addition, although the measurements were made prospectively, the analysis was retrospective and no “randomization” was done.

Other retrospective case series have suggested that venipuncture does not increase the risk of lymphedema development after lymphadenectomy. Cole reported no cases of lymphedema development in a level 4 retrospective audit of 14 patients who had “non-accidental skin puncturing” with a 2 month follow up of the at risk limb 17. Similarly, in their level 4 study, Winge et al analyzed the results of a questionnaire administered to 348 patients treated for breast cancer. Of the 311 respondents, 88 reported a history of intravenous procedures on the affected side but only 4 developed swelling as a complication in relation to venipuncture 18. This finding led the authors to conclude that intravenous procedures on ipsilateral arms pose a very low risk of complications such as lymphedema however they acknowledge that their sample size is small, and the study is retrospective, advocating a need for larger multi-centred studies."
 
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I had this discussion with one of the breast surgeons a few weeks ago. I don't know the research, but she said that lymphedema can happen pretty much at any time in the 4-5 years following dissection, but she does not worry about IV sticks assuming it's not going to be a large gauge or large volume infusion (RIC in the A/C used for 4 units of prbc etc) and that the IV is coming out in a day or two. She did not have a problem with placing 18 or smaller IV in the affected extremity assuming it's as distal as possible, i.e. not in A/C, upper extremity brachial, cephalic, basilic etc.

As far as the mechanism, I don't think it's the fluid anyone is worried about, but rather the risk of inflammation/infection/phlebitis precipitating lymphedema. Probably wouldn't be unreasonable to use chlorhex and sterile gloves if you have to stick an affected extremity.


Most of the data is retrospective, old, and very poor:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652571/
"
Avoidance of needle sticks
This is perhaps the most common preventative measure for patients at risk for developing lymphedema and is based on the concept that these injures may lead to infection and hence development or exacerbation of lymphedema. Most hospitals recommend this even in patients who have undergone sentinel lymph node biopsy. Patients are often designated with armbands and other measures to avoid accidental or inadvertent blood draws/needle sticks. Patients and clinicians often go to great lengths to adhere to this recommendation by performing blood draws from foot veins or having central venous catheters placed.

The historical source of this recommendation probably dates back to Halstead who in 1921, hypothesised that post-surgical infection or infection was the underlying cause of swelling of the arm following breast cancer surgery 11. Unfortunately, the vast majority of evidence that opposes or supports this recommendation is of poor scientific quality (level 4 or 5). Most reports are small series and anecdotal observations. For example, in a retrospective study of 79 patients treated with breast cancer, Villasor’s level 3 study reported that 3 patients developed lymphedema immediately after venipuncture of the affected arm and based on this finding proposed that venipuncture of the affected arm should be avoided.12. Similarly, Britton and Nelson in 1962 performed a level 4 retrospective study to identify etiological factors for 114 patients who developed lymphedema after radical mastectomy and reported that 53% of these patients had a history of recurrent cellulitis following either an insect bite, cat scratch, needle or thorn prick with a marked increase in swelling or pain in their arm 13. They concluded that any mode of bacterial entry could trigger development of cellulitis and lymphedema leading to the recommendation of avoiding venipuncture and meticulous skin care to avoid development or exacerbation of lymphedema. Interestingly, this is the only reference in the literature that we encountered reporting a potential link between needle sticks and infection and appears to be the only evidence for the underlying rationale of this recommendation. A level 5 study by Smith and colleagues reported that 10 patients referred to the lymphedema service over a 2 year period reported a direct correlation with venipuncture and the onset of new swelling in their arms 14. Similarly, in an unusual level 4 report, Brennan et al described a case of a 78 year old woman who developed lymphedema 30 years after a left radical mastectomy after performing needle sticks for blood monitoring for her newly diagnosed diabetes 15. Other studies have never been published but were rather only reported at scientific conventions. Foldi, et al cite Harlow and colleagues at the 18th convention of the International Society of Lymphology (ISL) 2001, in which they reported a significantly increased rate of lymphedema in a group of 252 patients after venipuncture. No details or other data were provided 1.

Clark, Sitzia and Harlow performed the only level 2 prospective observational study in 2004 examining the incidence and risk factors (including hospital skin puncture) for arm lymphedema in patients with breast cancer 16. They measured limb circumference pre-operatively and at regular time periods post-operatively in 188 women who had undergone treatment for breast cancer. The authors reported that 8/18 (44%) patients who had any needle stick developed lymphedema as compared with 31/170 (18%) patients who did not have venipuncture, concluding that skin puncture statistically significantly increased the risk of lymphedema 16. The authors, however, did not report the timing of lymphedema development in relation to venipuncture and did not evaluate the effect of potential confounding variables that may alter the rate of lymphedema. In addition, although the measurements were made prospectively, the analysis was retrospective and no “randomization” was done.

Other retrospective case series have suggested that venipuncture does not increase the risk of lymphedema development after lymphadenectomy. Cole reported no cases of lymphedema development in a level 4 retrospective audit of 14 patients who had “non-accidental skin puncturing” with a 2 month follow up of the at risk limb 17. Similarly, in their level 4 study, Winge et al analyzed the results of a questionnaire administered to 348 patients treated for breast cancer. Of the 311 respondents, 88 reported a history of intravenous procedures on the affected side but only 4 developed swelling as a complication in relation to venipuncture 18. This finding led the authors to conclude that intravenous procedures on ipsilateral arms pose a very low risk of complications such as lymphedema however they acknowledge that their sample size is small, and the study is retrospective, advocating a need for larger multi-centred studies."

Good info, thanks. Seems that evidence is conflicting.
 
Some of these interactions are priceless:
Women: You can't use that arm for an iv!
Why?
I had a tumor resection
When?
20 years ago
Did you ever have any swelling in the arm?
No

Wtf!

MD's are no better, crazy how little physiology some care to know about.
 
Some of these interactions are priceless:
Women: You can't use that arm for an iv!
Why?
I had a tumor resection
When?
20 years ago
Did you ever have any swelling in the arm?
No

Wtf!

MD's are no better, crazy how little physiology some care to know about.

Or, how perception is reality to some people. Even if the Perception isn't real we should go out of our away to accommodate patients as we are in the service business (like it or not).
As I've gotten older I'm more sensitive to patients concerns or demands as long as I can still safely do my job.
 
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This was exactly my scenario yesterday. This lady had nothing, and I mean nothing in her right extremity. Couldn't use the left upper extremity because of lymph node dissection. Ultrasound in the AC revealed nothing either. Couldn't even see a deep brachial running along with the artery.

I lucked out and got a saphenous but not sure what I would have done if I weren't so lucky.

The big question is: is this a theoretical risk or an evidence-based risk?

Are there any case reports of lymphedema after an IV placement? what is the mechanism of action? How can blood flow through an extremity fine but a small puncture upstream with inflowing fluids causes lymphedema?

Well, I don't see the issue with an U/S guided central line placement in these situations. As many of you know I've performed quite a few of these in my career and can usually place one as fast or faster than U/S guided peripheral IV. An IJ in experienced hands is extremely safe IMHO.

For those who prefer EJs that is an option as well.

Finally, I've performed SEVO mask inductions on quite a few adult patients during my career then secured IV access.
 
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So, Blade, a woman shows up with nice juicy veins in that arm but absolutely nothing anywhere else. Maybe some small veins that are pretty deep by ultrasound. Having, I dunno, a pelvic EUA and D&C/endometrial biopsy, or an inguinal hernia. Some 45min procedure. You'd do an awake central line before placing an IV in that arm?
Pardon me for chiming in.

I would discuss it with the patient. "Would you rather have me poke you 10 times on the other arm, a central line, or go for the easy vein and take the presumably low risk lymphedema?"
 
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This was exactly my scenario yesterday. This lady had nothing, and I mean nothing in her right extremity. Couldn't use the left upper extremity because of lymph node dissection. Ultrasound in the AC revealed nothing either. Couldn't even see a deep brachial running along with the artery.

I lucked out and got a saphenous but not sure what I would have done if I weren't so lucky.

The big question is: is this a theoretical risk or an evidence-based risk?

Are there any case reports of lymphedema after an IV placement? what is the mechanism of action? How can blood flow through an extremity fine but a small puncture upstream with inflowing fluids causes lymphedema?


I've place an IV in a foot a few times (preferably non diabetics and non obese).
 
Pardon me for chiming in.

I would discuss it with the patient. "Would you rather have me poke you 10 times on the other arm, a central line, or go for the easy vein and take the presumably low risk lymphedema?"

Right, this is the exact conversation I had with the patient. Also, it was similar to dhb's scenario, >20yrs ago, no swelling, yadda yadda. Also, I'm peds trained, so have absolutely zero qualms about putting IVs in the foot, but adults seem to hate it.

I'm just not stoked about doing awake central lines in already anxious, worked up patients, especially for minor procedures. Especially older, fatter patients with suboptimal pulmonary mechanics at baseline. Also not stoked about doing inhalational inductions in old, obese people without IV access. If s**t goes downhill and there's a nice juicy vein sitting there on the affected arm, you're going to poke it anyway.

Interesting discussion.
 
I am not doing inhalational induction on adults for IVs, that's for sure. Can't get paid enough to take that risk. Especially anxious "empty" stomachs full of acid and bile.

But I will put in an IV in a restricted limb just for induction, if needed, and then try to find another one after. That I will do.

Same goes for a difficult stick. As long as I have a well-flowing 22G, they can go to sleep, as far as I am concerned, but no inhalational induction without an IV; I'd rather put one in the foot/EJ/IJ. There are very few patients who can't get even just a peripheral 22G.
 
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So, Blade, a woman shows up with nice juicy veins in that arm but absolutely nothing anywhere else. Maybe some small veins that are pretty deep by ultrasound. Having, I dunno, a pelvic EUA and D&C/endometrial biopsy, or an inguinal hernia. Some 45min procedure. You'd do an awake central line before placing an IV in that arm?
mask induction......search for iv on safe arm....no luck, then single lumen CVP or EJ....if surgeon wants to do procedure needs to understand both the patient and I's challenges

oh yeah....forgot about the foot....would go there probably before the neck
 
why are you guys so anti-inhalation inductions....especially when you'd do that same thing for a difficult airway? put on a mask, stick in an airway, adjust the head so they don't obstruct and begin the search or put in a CVP. if the patient isn't NPO, ie emergency or trauma then fair, but otherwise i can't see the uproar versus torturing a patient


i guess my threshold is low because i've had two patients now complain to my hospital about "jabbing them like a pin cushion looking for an IV" ...formal complaints.....i have theories
 
Or, how perception is reality to some people. Even if the Perception isn't real we should go out of our away to accommodate patients as we are in the service business (like it or not).
As I've gotten older I'm more sensitive to patients concerns or demands as long as I can still safely do my job.
This. Right. Here.

In my young career I've started to learn that arguing/explaining to a patient sometimes gets you nowhere or makes the short interaction between patient and anesthesiologist worse. If you convince a patient to use that arm who strongly believes you shouldn't be using it and then ANYTHING bad happens to that arm, guess who's butt it's gonna be. We know the evidence but I definitely don't want to sit an a deposition explaining it.

If push comes to shove, surgery needs to happen, and the safe arm is garbage....talk to the patient, talk to the surgeon, and Dieu Merci for IJs, femoral veins, and U/S
 
why are you guys so anti-inhalation inductions....especially when you'd do that same thing for a difficult airway? put on a mask, stick in an airway, adjust the head so they don't obstruct and begin the search or put in a CVP. if the patient isn't NPO, ie emergency or trauma then fair, but otherwise i can't see the uproar versus torturing a patient


i guess my threshold is low because i've had two patients now complain to my hospital about "jabbing them like a pin cushion looking for an IV" ...formal complaints.....i have theories
As usually, it all comes down to options, risks and benefits. I am curious how you would defend an aspiration/laryngospasm/hypoxia event with no IV, in court, when you clearly had other options. That will be worse than the Joan Rivers no sux case.

As I have said many times, NPO is very relative to patient physiology and morals; I don't assume it in people with difficult IVs (obese, drug abusers, vasculopaths etc.). Add to this all the liars, and all the anxious ones who will regurgitate a ton of acid and bile. So I don't play games with the airway just to get an IV, if I have a choice. I have a lot of respect for the airway; nothing else can kill a patient and my career faster.

If the patient complains about my IV, I usually point out to them that this is nothing compared to postop pain. My priorities (which I also explain to patients) are safety and comfort, in that order. I will do my best to keep them comfortable, but I will not cut corners when about their safety.
 
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Has anyone here used IM sux in an adult recently? What is the time before onset of fair intubating conditions? I remember as a CA-1, one of my old warhorse attendings used to have me do a few inhalational inductions here and there on ASA-1s in their 20s getting outpatient surgery, simply because we rarely get the experience of doing them in adults outside of tamponade and mediastinal masses. I never really saw the problem with them if the patient is low risk for aspiration, granted I'd still be nervous as hell if the patient didn't have an IV.
 
Has anyone here used IM sux in an adult recently? What is the time before onset of fair intubating conditions? I remember as a CA-1, one of my old warhorse attendings used to have me do a few inhalational inductions here and there on ASA-1s in their 20s getting outpatient surgery, simply because we rarely get the experience of doing them in adults outside of tamponade and mediastinal masses. I never really saw the problem with them if the patient is low risk for aspiration, granted I'd still be nervous as hell if the patient didn't have an IV.

Good question. What if your patient is 100kg? Do you give 400mg of IM sux? 20cc? Is that even feasible? Not something I want to try, regardless.

If pressed, I probably wouldn't go full sevo induction. I'd just give a little nitrous for anxiolysis while working on the EJ/IJ, most likely, then IV induction.
 
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As usually, it all comes down to options, risks and benefits. I am curious how you would defend an aspiration/laryngospasm/hypoxia event with no IV, in court, when you clearly had other options. That will be worse than the Joan Rivers no sux case.

As I have said many times, NPO is very relative to patient physiology and morals; I don't assume it in people with difficult IVs (obese, drug abusers, vasculopaths etc.). Add to this all the liars, and all the anxious ones who will regurgitate a ton of acid and bile. So I don't play games with the airway just to get an IV, if I have a choice. I have a lot of respect for the airway; nothing else can kill a patient and my career faster.

If the patient complains about my IV, I usually point out to them that this is nothing compared to postop pain. My priorities (which I also explain to patients) are safety and comfort, in that order. I will do my best to keep them comfortable, but I will not cut corners when about their safety.

Anesth Analg. 2005 May;100(5):1422-4, table of contents.
Intravenous or inhaled induction of anesthesia in adults? An audit of preoperative patient preferences.
van den Berg AA1, Chitty DA, Jones RD, Sohel MS, Shahen A.
Author information

Abstract
If given a choice, would patients prefer an inhaled or IV method of inducing anesthesia? We investigated the choice between inhaled and IV induction of anesthesia of adult patients presenting to an academic institution for ambulatory surgery. Of 240 patients audited at the preoperative visit, 212 (88%) reported anesthetic histories in which anesthesia had been induced IV and by inhalation in 203 (96%) and 5 (2%) patients, respectively, with the remaining 4 (2%) having no recall of route of the induction of anesthesia. Seventy-eight (33%) patients selected IV induction, 120 (50%) chose inhaled induction, and 42 (17%) patients were undecided. Sevoflurane was used successfully for induction in 154 patients to whom it was offered. These findings seem to contradict the concept that most adult patients have an aversion to anesthesia masks and suggest that a fear of needle stick may be more prevalent among some populations of American adults. Where manpower and facilities permit and in the absence of risk of regurgitation or airway difficulty, it is suggested that enquiry be made of healthy adults presenting for elective ambulatory surgery as to their preferred route for the induction of anesthesia.
 
These discussions are why this forum is great. I've talked this over with some breast surgeons and actually treated lymphadema when I was a physical therapist before medical school.

In my experience, the protection of the arm becomes part of the patients identity and cancer experience. I may try and educate the patient but I don't expect them to be that open to it.

That said, if they never had lymphadema or did not have a full axillary node dissection, I would use the arm if needed. Repeated nibp measurements are likely far worse than a small piv in the hand.

A great example of perception becoming reality.
 
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There are a number of situations during which consideration of an inhalational induction of an adult may be justified, including treatment of nonobese, healthy patients with needle phobia or patients who have extremely difficult IV access in whom there is no contraindication for inhalational induction. In these types of patients, the anesthesiologist must weigh the potential risks and benefits in determining a course of action.


Timothy E. Smith, MD

Wm. Gavin Elliott, MD, MMM

Department of Anesthesiology, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC, [email protected]
 
As usually, it all comes down to options, risks and benefits. I am curious how you would defend an aspiration/laryngospasm/hypoxia event with no IV, in court, when you clearly had other options. That will be worse than the Joan Rivers no sux case.

It's no different than the inhalation inductions that peds anesthesiologists people do everyday. Are the peds people on here really wrestling with kids to get IV's.
 
As I said, it always depends on options, risks and benefits. I am not pigheaded, just conservative when I deal with airway issues, despite doing with an LMA cases that others do with an ETT.

Young ASA 1 with needle phobia is not the same as obese 50 year-old difficult IV access with needle phobia, especially for elective surgery. In the latter case, she can go induce herself. I am all for patient comfort, it is a very tough day for them after all, but there is safety stuff I don't give up on easily. I want my tiny IV.

Legally, it is extremely easy to find contraindications for inhalational induction in about 80% of American patients, and 95% of those with difficult IV access.
 
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Good question. What if your patient is 100kg? Do you give 400mg of IM sux? 20cc? Is that even feasible? Not something I want to try, regardless.

If pressed, I probably wouldn't go full sevo induction. I'd just give a little nitrous for anxiolysis while working on the EJ/IJ, most likely, then IV induction.
That's exactly what I do. There is a reason nitrous is safely used by European parturients on the OB floor.
 
I am not doing inhalational induction on adults for IVs, that's for sure. Can't get paid enough to take that risk. Especially anxious "empty" stomachs full of acid and bile.

But I will put in an IV in a restricted limb just for induction, if needed, and then try to find another one after. That I will do.

Same goes for a difficult stick. As long as I have a well-flowing 22G, they can go to sleep, as far as I am concerned, but no inhalational induction without an IV; I'd rather put one in the foot/EJ/IJ. There are very few patients who can't get even just a peripheral 22G.
I have several inhaled inductions on ASA 4 patients over 50 year under my belt.

That's the next level over pent sux tube.
 
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Yeah. I guess my practice has changed since those complaints. I mean, it's a confidence killer when you're the only one that was able to get the patient's IV in and 2 weeks later you're sitting in the Chiefs office because the patient complained that you "ignored wishes", "gave burning medicine", "please dont have him take care of me again". That's the world / area I live in.....you can literally save the day and be in the principal's office.

Reminds me of what I was a resident and a patient (a radiology attending) complained to my PD when the nurses couldn't get her IV, I "1 timed" her AC and she told him I made a bruise and I'm a bad resident. Some would say my PD shouldn't have even told me about this......I have my theories.

I guess what I'm saying is YES....i totally agree it's patient dependent and most nonobese patients with hard IV's are going to find themselves asleep with me because I can only take so many more "he's a bad anesthesiologist" complaints vs..."nice doc, I don't remember anything" or even better no comment. I can wrestle with an airway for most of these nonobese...but many times if they decide they hate me for hurting them, I can't fix that.

As someone said above, this is a service industry and I want people coming back for my service.
 
I have several inhaled inductions on ASA 4 patients over 50 year under my belt.

That's the next level over pent sux tube.
I am not saying it cannot be done. I have done a number of them, too, in cardiac patients, during my residency. I just had an IV in. ;)
 
Yeah. I guess my practice has changed since those complaints. I mean, it's a confidence killer when you're the only one that was able to get the patient's IV in and 2 weeks later you're sitting in the Chiefs office because the patient complained that you "ignored wishes", "gave burning medicine", "please dont have him take care of me again". That's the world / area I live in.....you can literally save the day and be in the principal's office.

Reminds me of what I was a resident and a patient (a radiology attending) complained to my PD when the nurses couldn't get her IV, I "1 timed" her AC and she told him I made a bruise and I'm a bad resident. Some would say my PD shouldn't have even told me about this......I have my theories.

I guess what I'm saying is YES....i totally agree it's patient dependent and most nonobese patients with hard IV's are going to find themselves asleep with me because I can only take so many more "he's a bad anesthesiologist" complaints vs..."nice doc, I don't remember anything" or even better no comment. I can wrestle with an airway for most of these nonobese...but many times if they decide they hate me for hurting them, I can't fix that.

As someone said above, this is a service industry and I want people coming back for my service.
The first time you will almost get burnt, you will forget the service industry, the same way everybody forgets you when you are involved in a malpractice case (like you had the plague). The patient's gratefulness lasts exactly till they leave your PACU; a bad event lasts for life.

As I said: safety first, comfort second. I will make a lot of reasonable accommodations, I will be friendly, but I will be firm on stuff that matters to me.

If you find yourself called frequently in the principal's office, you are working for the wrong people, the kind that chase profit with any price, even the price of your career.

Nobody expects a pilot to cut corners, except stupid people.
 
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I am not saying it cannot be done. I have done a number of them, too, in cardiac patients, during my residency. I just had an IV in. ;)
No IV.
 
The first time you will almost get burnt, you will forget the service industry, the same way everybody forgets you when you are involved in a malpractice case (like you had the plague). The patient's gratefulness lasts exactly till they leave your PACU; a bad event lasts for life.

As I said: safety first, comfort second. I will make a lot of reasonable accommodations, I will be friendly, but I will be firm on stuff that matters to me.

If you find yourself called frequently in the principal's office, you are working for the wrong people, the kind that chase profit with any price, even the price of your career.

Nobody expects a pilot to cut corners, except for stupid clients.

Trust me...I'm hearing you. "I hearing Jimmy."
 
What I am saying is that I know it can be done. I have done it, too, as a junior attending, in ASA 3-4 patients, for the sake of peace and coolness. Nothing bad happened but I wouldn't risk it again, unless I have no choice.

What has changed? I have seen how stressful even the threat of malpractice can be (on some of my colleagues). Not worth it.
 
Trust me...I'm hearing you. "I hearing Jimmy."
Sorry, I didn't want to preach. Every time I read something like this, my heart sinks, because I know exactly what you are talking about.

I once had an interview where the managing partner gave me a 10 minute-lecture about how important is to keep the surgeons happy at all price. That was their main hiring criterion, everything else was secondary. They had people who had failed their written boards, but had a cute smile.
 
What about adults with special needs?
Obviously, if they can't sit for a preop IV (most actually do), inhalational it is. Same way I don't expect a kid to sit for my IV. But I do expect an adult to cooperate with me, the same way a pilot expects it, and if I say it's not safe to walk during takeoff, he'd better have his ass secured to his seat by the safety belt.

I take the time to listen to my patients, and explain. I try to work with them whenever I can. When in serious doubt about something, I am also happy to let somebody else play the hero (usually some cowboy will volunteer). I don't like playing Russian roulette, so I don't.
 
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Obviously, if they can't sit for a preop IV (most actually do), inhalational it is. Same way I don't expect a kid to sit for my IV. But I do expect an adult to cooperate with me, the same way a pilot expects, and if I say it's not safe to walk during takeoff, he'd better have his ass secured to his seat by the safety belt.

So you don't do them for adults, except when you do?
 
So you don't do them for adults, except when you do?
I don't do them, as long as there is a better choice. That's exactly what I am supposed to do.

I have zero problems in admitting I am not perfect, even asking for help occasionally. Whatever it takes to avoid a bad outcome. I treat my patients as if they were my family members, and that's exactly what I tell them. That includes not putting them in harm's way whenever I have a choice. Never regretted a decision made like this, or had a patient complain when approached like this.

But I will not do an unnecessary inhalational induction just because the patient is spoiled and the surgeon is unhappy. Patients expect me to be their friend, but the law wants me to act like their parent.
 
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CA-3 here, and wanted to bring up the possibility of using an IO line in the safe arm?

We once had an in-service on the use of IO lines, part of which admittedly was given by a rep for the company that stocks ours, but he brought quite a bit of (biased) convincing data to demonstrate that their insertion is not substantially more painful than peripheral IV placement assuming that 1) appropriate topicalization and 2) proper, slow initial injection into the marrow space is used.

He actually referenced this exact situation: a patient with near impossible IV access presenting for ambulatory surgery. Use it for the whole case, or at least for induction and see if any veins dilate out while sevo is on for IV access once the patient is asleep.

That all being said, I have never seen placement of an IO line as a primary means of establishing access for the induction of anesthesia in an elective setting in an awake patient. Is this something that any of you have done or would ever consider in a practical setting?
 
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