List of Programs That Terminate Residents

[JGimpel]

It looks like the OP was banned, so let's try and get back to creating that list. This is what has been listed, so far:

1. University of Chicago - Anesthesiology - I received message that the program has extended training of several residents in the last few years and fired one resident who ended up going to the Cleveland Clinic program where they did well.

2. Beth Israel in Boston - OB/GYN - I received message that a resident was terminated due to issues with an attending about 5 years ago and that the resident went to another program and did well.

3. Ochsner General Surgery - post above reports 2 residents were terminated in their 3rd yr of residency d/t failing Step 3 > 2x each and not being able to pass it by the required PGY-3 year.

4. University of Mississippi General Surgery - message received that PGY4 resident dismissed last year, reportedly due to anger management issues.

5. Johns Hopkins General Surgery - PGY3 resident terminated allegedly due to mental health issues. (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=660565 )

6. VCU-Shenandoah Valley Family Practice Residency - reportedly PGY1 resident notified of contract non-renewal, resident appealed and was placed on probation, subsequently resigned - (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=658953 )

7. Cleveland Clinic Neurosurgery - reportedly terminate a resident about every year (see above post)

8. Southern Illinois University Internal Medicine - received message that they terminated a resident.

9. Rapid City Family Medicine - received message that they have terminated a handful of residents over the past 3 or 4 years.

10. Providence Family Medicine in Olympia, WA - received message that they fired a resident last year.

11. Spokane Internal Medicine - received message that they reportedly terminated one last year as well.

12. Univ of Texas San Antonio Internal Medicine - received message that they seems to fire one out of each class or so.

13. Franklin Sq Hospital in Baltimore Internal Medicine - received message that program seems to fire one resident every year.

14. Forbes Family Practice in Monroeville PA - reportedly fired 4 residents in past 3 years - see above post.

15. St. Mary Medical Center in Long Beach Internal Medicine--received message of 2 terminated in 3 years, possible PD blackballing to prevent them working anywhere else.

16. Kaiser-San Francisco Internal Medicine--at least one terminated, also rampant favoritism by the faculty according to message

Carillion clinic roanoke virginia family med they have a pgy-2 slot come up every year for the last several years theres gotta be a problem there

Links provided:
http://www.jdunderground.com/mdunderground/thread.php?threadId=9091
Nothing new here in a year or so.

http://www.cirseiu.org/
Resident Unionization

The system is stacked against the resident, let's keep up the good work with listing the programs that do this.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Winged Scapula]

How is a program that terminates a resident for 2 Step 3 failures/inability to pass before a deadline (which the resident has known about for 2 years) pertinent to this list?

Similarly, programs that have terminated a single resident - is that relevant to the reason for this thread?

 

[Raryn]

How is a program that terminates a resident for 2 Step 3 failures/inability to pass before a deadline (which the resident has known about for 2 years) pertinent to this list?

Similarly, programs that have terminated a single resident - is that relevant to the reason for this thread?

Not to mention it's law in at least some states that you have to have step 3 passed before starting your 3rd year. For example, that's law in California for all US grads. If ANY US grad in CA didn't pass step 3 by their 24th month of residency, they legally couldn't work any longer. The deadline is by the 36th month for foreign grads.

Some programs have tighter deadlines than the legal limit, but I don't think it's an unfair expectation.

 

[JGimpel]

Just trying to keep the list going so we could help future GME applicants. I would hope that more than one firing in the same program would be reported, so as to show the trends that one would keep in mind when applying, but you definitely do have a point about the one-timers and how many years ago they were fired. IMHO, if a program admitted a resident with problems on prior boards and couldn't get him/her to pass the last one, I would still want to know about it. If the applicant didn't have any problems except for the ones while in a residency, it would be good to know that too.

Can't blame a guy for trying, can ya?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Just trying to keep the list going so we could help future GME applicants. I would hope that more than one firing in the same program would be reported, so as to show the trends that one would keep in mind when applying, but you definitely do have a point about the one-timers and how many years ago they were fired. IMHO, if a program admitted a resident with problems on prior boards and couldn't get him/her to pass the last one, I would still want to know about it. If the applicant didn't have any problems except for the ones while in a residency, it would be good to know that too.

Can't blame a guy for trying, can ya?

No blame here from my vantage point. What I would want to avoid would be the appearance of fear mongering. Threads like these make it look like programs are firing residents right and left when nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the time when you look into more detail in these firings there is good reason for it.

Fight the power!!

 

[JGimpel]

Definitely didn't want to incite fear to any party and it looks like the list is very short and lacks any sort of predictive value at this point, so the point is well taken.

I'll hit button 2 on my phone and get back to work.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

My program, which I will not name, fired one resident a year every year I was there. 2 of those cases were so obviously deserved that no one complained when it happened (in fact we wondered why it took so long).

 

[QofQuimica]

I personally know one resident at my institution who got fired while I've been here. Definitely deserved it and should have been fired much sooner.

For those of you who haven't started residency yet, it's really, really hard to get fired as a resident in most cases. Even subpar residents usually graduate if they show up for work when they're supposed to and don't make too many problems for the administration. I'm sure there are a few egregious cases of undeserved firings, but that's not the norm.

 

[mohammad1975]

I think we agree more than we disagree.

Somehow my thoughts are not being clearly communicated if you think I'm "angry" about this. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Not promoting or terminating a resident is one of the most difficult things to do in my position -- I feel like a failure, and wonder whether I could have done something to prevent it. Are there crappy PD's out there who create de-facto pyramidal systems by simply failing out a few interns each year? Probably, and I agree they should be removed (or the problem solved).

I also agree that programs should be 100% transparent about how many people did not finish the program, and what happened to them. Not everyone will finish a program and that's not a bad thing, so I'd suggest that not only should programs have to report on how many people didn't finish training, but also what happened to those people. And, it shouldn't be the program that actually reports it but someone else -- probably the ACGME (this minimizes the chances that a program will lie, and allows for standardized reporting). It's actually a great QI project, and would likely be much more useful than the new outcomes/milestones project. Better yet, you could spin it as an "outcome" for programs (since all of the outcomes we're talking about are for trainees).

As far as the comment about whistleblowing, again I fear my meaning did not come through clearly. Everyone should have a chance to whistleblow. My point was simply that I have seen residents who are struggling use "whistleblowing" as a defense. This then creates a never ending cascade of accusations and counter accusations. My point was that this is a really bad situation for everyone, and the truth always gets lost. I spent the rest of that post (on page 4) trying to come up with a better solution. Making non-completers and their reasons public is a great tool I hadn't considered and would fully endorse -- but I don't think that's enough.

I fully agree that the power balance between PD's and residents is out of balance. I'd like to think that in 90+% of situations that PD's are on the up-and-up and that residents can transfer, or get honest assessments of their skills to switch. But that's not based upon any data, just my own rose colored glasses through which I look at the world.

So, maybe we need:

1. A transparent reporting system managed by the ACGME (since they track all training already) that reports the completion rate at all programs. All non completers should be viewable (anonymously), and should report where they went next. Ideally it could include both a statement from the resident and from the PD.

2. A mechanism such that when residents are terminated from programs, that there is some "balanced" reporting on their performance. Clearly any new program needs to know why the resident was terminated, but there should be some statement on their strengths also. Some sort of evaulation file / portfolio should be created and held by a third party.

3. Perhaps some incentive to take residents who had been previously terminated -- whether that's an increased financial incentive, or increased caps, or something else.

Now that I write this, #1 and #2 are actually the same thing. #1 is what's reportable to everyone, and #2 is what's releasable to new programs. All would be managed by the ACGME, but the resident would have some control over what documentation they wanted to include, and wouldn't need to worry that their PD in the future would simply refuse to release documentation. The ACGME could ensure that the slot filled by that resident wasn't available to be filled by another until the file was complete.

Hello PD,

It seems like you are very interested in this forum. And somehow I think people in high positions consider themselves as flawless. I personally have a habit of thinking things twice before I think I am flawless and consider all the aspects of my actions before I do one. I hope it is the same behavior in high ranked people in a residency training since it is a life of a person which has worked for a long time. At least, some sort of support for the failed one is humane unless someone who calls him/her self a doctor really does not consider a resident as a human. In that case, that person should not be allowed to treat/heal other humans (so called patients). Not to be offensive but fair is fair. If I am wrong, let me know. I really appreciate it. Specially for IMGs which are going to live in a new country and new system. Consider the fact that this path is much harder for them and by the time they get there, they have already been under a lot of psychological pressure and some sort of reassurance and help might not b a bad idea, unless you do not consider them as physicians, in that case, ECFMG might become meaningless.

Thanks.

 

[inmyslumber]

Hello PD,

It seems like you are very interested in this forum. And somehow I think people in high positions consider themselves as flawless. I personally have a habit of thinking things twice before I think I am flawless and consider all the aspects of my actions before I do one. I hope it is the same behavior in high ranked people in a residency training since it is a life of a person which has worked for a long time. At least, some sort of support for the failed one is humane unless someone who calls him/her self a doctor really does not consider a resident as a human. In that case, that person should not be allowed to treat/heal other humans (so called patients). Not to be offensive but fair is fair. If I am wrong, let me know. I really appreciate it. Specially for IMGs which are going to live in a new country and new system. Consider the fact that this path is much harder for them and by the time they get there, they have already been under a lot of psychological pressure and some sort of reassurance and help might not b a bad idea, unless you do not consider them as physicians, in that case, ECFMG might become meaningless.

Thanks.

I realize I am one of those people in a "high position" but this post above reads in a very condescending (as well as defensive) tone. This may not be the best approach to stimulate meaningful conversation.

 

[Shikima]

I realize I am one of those people in a "high position" but this post above reads in a very condescending (as well as defensive) tone. This may not be the best approach to stimulate meaningful conversation.

Is it pure trolling or poorly worded, which has created a moment for defenses to be raised?

 

[Gastrapathy]

Is it pure trolling or poorly worded, which has created a moment for defenses to be raised?

Is this English?

Not everyone is going to pass. Most failures will be more than justified. A tiny minority will be from unfair treatment.

No one is entitled to care for patients by going to school. You have to prove you can do the job. It's just not that hard or high a standard.

Oh, and paragraphs are good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shikima]

Is this English?

Not everyone is going to pass. Most failures will be more than justified. A tiny minority will be from unfair treatment.

No one is entitled to care for patients by going to school. You have to prove you can do the job. It's just not that hard or high a standard.

Oh, and paragraphs are good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, it are be Engrish.

 

[MRGMD]

I just stumbled on this, but I know that Maricopa Integrated Health for GS often terminates, and holds back. Which is surprising, given it is not known to be a difficult program. A new director came in two years ago and she has just taken it to a sad level.

 

[mohammad1975]

I think we agree more than we disagree.

Somehow my thoughts are not being clearly communicated if you think I'm "angry" about this. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Not promoting or terminating a resident is one of the most difficult things to do in my position -- I feel like a failure, and wonder whether I could have done something to prevent it. Are there crappy PD's out there who create de-facto pyramidal systems by simply failing out a few interns each year? Probably, and I agree they should be removed (or the problem solved).

I also agree that programs should be 100% transparent about how many people did not finish the program, and what happened to them. Not everyone will finish a program and that's not a bad thing, so I'd suggest that not only should programs have to report on how many people didn't finish training, but also what happened to those people. And, it shouldn't be the program that actually reports it but someone else -- probably the ACGME (this minimizes the chances that a program will lie, and allows for standardized reporting). It's actually a great QI project, and would likely be much more useful than the new outcomes/milestones project. Better yet, you could spin it as an "outcome" for programs (since all of the outcomes we're talking about are for trainees).

As far as the comment about whistleblowing, again I fear my meaning did not come through clearly. Everyone should have a chance to whistleblow. My point was simply that I have seen residents who are struggling use "whistleblowing" as a defense. This then creates a never ending cascade of accusations and counter accusations. My point was that this is a really bad situation for everyone, and the truth always gets lost. I spent the rest of that post (on page 4) trying to come up with a better solution. Making non-completers and their reasons public is a great tool I hadn't considered and would fully endorse -- but I don't think that's enough.

I fully agree that the power balance between PD's and residents is out of balance. I'd like to think that in 90+% of situations that PD's are on the up-and-up and that residents can transfer, or get honest assessments of their skills to switch. But that's not based upon any data, just my own rose colored glasses through which I look at the world.

So, maybe we need:

1. A transparent reporting system managed by the ACGME (since they track all training already) that reports the completion rate at all programs. All non completers should be viewable (anonymously), and should report where they went next. Ideally it could include both a statement from the resident and from the PD.

2. A mechanism such that when residents are terminated from programs, that there is some "balanced" reporting on their performance. Clearly any new program needs to know why the resident was terminated, but there should be some statement on their strengths also. Some sort of evaulation file / portfolio should be created and held by a third party.

3. Perhaps some incentive to take residents who had been previously terminated -- whether that's an increased financial incentive, or increased caps, or something else.

Now that I write this, #1 and #2 are actually the same thing. #1 is what's reportable to everyone, and #2 is what's releasable to new programs. All would be managed by the ACGME, but the resident would have some control over what documentation they wanted to include, and wouldn't need to worry that their PD in the future would simply refuse to release documentation. The ACGME could ensure that the slot filled by that resident wasn't available to be filled by another until the file was complete.

Well PD, you talk very nice and legible. This is basically the dark corner of failures and giving them some hope and advice is not a bad idea, but the actual position which is gone and getting a new one which is hard is not an easy job to do. I guess if we look at residency more like a human is treating another human not that a machine is treating a human, these problems will not appear that much. I think you should look at a resident like a human which is happened to be under your supervision. Not like a crap. Hopefully this section of SDN someday becomes empty and we will not see sad stories any more.

 

[deuist]

It's almost poetic:

Treat residents like a human treating a human, not like a machine treating a human.
Treat residents like a human. Not like a crap.

In all seriousness, I knew of several residents who were fired, and everyone of them was justified. One skipped shifts, another lied on his transfer application, a third sold narco prescriptions on the side, and a fourth regularly bad-mouthed the hospital on social media. Strangely, the underperforming residents get to stick around.

 

[raptor5]

Rapid City Regional Hospital Family Medicine Residency

The number of residents fired in the last 5-6 years was 3. Two of those 3 residents had no real red flags. Each of the firings were justifiable and IMHO overdue. When you are a program in the middle of nowhere it is quite difficult to recruit and even more difficult to match good applicants. Those residents were given multiple chances to remediate and correct their problems but failed. This program does have its share of 6 year MDs which is a red flag in itself but most of them have faired pretty well.

While I do have my share of criticisms regarding this program it is not one which mistreats residents. The best aspects of this residency are the people in the program, the faculty, and the area. FM faculty teaching is abysmal. Off service teaching is hit or miss. Most of what Learned has no practical application toward my current job. This is mostly due to practice population and location. Inpatient adult medicine and high risk obstetrics are the strongest aspects of the program. Weaknesses include poor teaching, outpatient pediatrics, newborn care, emergency care, and EBM.

 

[baysiderny]

Firing vs being forced to resign? are these two different things? How do you put this on your application? Can you simply tell other programs, I didn't like the new town, or some personal reason when you are asked to resign? How can you turn around things in your favor when asked to resign/are terminated. What do you tell other programs you are applying to

 

[rkaz]

It's almost poetic:

Treat residents like a human treating a human, not like a machine treating a human.
Treat residents like a human. Not like a crap.

Try to understand where someone is coming from rather than mocking. I take it that 'Mohammed1975' is from a different culture and that English is likely not his first language. Possibly he's had some painful residency experience or may know others who have had bad experiences with their program directors. Although his posts were written to APD, I figure that some prior experience of was triggering these posts.

 

[mcl]

Firing vs being forced to resign? are these two different things? How do you put this on your application? Can you simply tell other programs, I didn't like the new town, or some personal reason when you are asked to resign? How can you turn around things in your favor when asked to resign/are terminated. What do you tell other programs you are applying to

Firing vs. forced to resign are slightly different things with more or less the same results (resident has no job, program has fill a vacant spot). People often choose the resignation option because PDs often promise to active help, or at least to provide a neutral letter, for the resident seeking another position. That help may or may not materialize--I tend to think that more programs want to help even their soon-to-be former residents land on their feet, but others here have a far different perspective. Quite a bit depends on the type and scope of the infraction and how seriously the PD views it. There is a big difference between "not a good fit at our program" vs. "posed a danger to patients" at the two extremes. I have never had a resident choose the firing option, as that choice would tend to cause more burned bridges which further damage career options in the long run. As to what you tell other programs when you apply, the first rule is to not misrepresent the reason because the new PD will talk to the old PD, and at some point the old PD has to provide a letter indicating your basic competence. If the parting is at all amicable and the resident/PD can agree on a strategy, the likelihood of success in securing a new position should definitely increase.

 

[ferning]

It's almost poetic:

Treat residents like a human treating a human, not like a machine treating a human.
Treat residents like a human. Not like a crap.

In all seriousness, I knew of several residents who were fired, and everyone of them was justified. One skipped shifts, another lied on his transfer application, a third sold narco prescriptions on the side, and a fourth regularly bad-mouthed the hospital on social media. Strangely, the underperforming residents get to stick around.

Fired for bad mouthing a hospital on social media is justified?

And on the same level as someone who doesnt show up to work and sells narcotic rx?

 

[Doctor Bob]

Fired for bad mouthing a hospital on social media is justified?

Sure. If I was an employer with an employee who had to have their contract renewed every year, and that employee was frequently saying bad things about me in a public forum, then I wouldn't renew their contract.
People are free to say whatever they want on the internet (or anywhere for that matter) and their rights to do so are protected. And they are protected from being imprisoned for what they say. They are not protected from all consequences however and an employer can view the things they say as unprofessional and unbecoming of an employee and terminate their employment contract.

 

[QofQuimica]

Badmouthing people and institutions can cause a lot of drama too. There was an employee at one of my hospitals who got fired for airing dirty laundry with another employee on facebook, which turned into the second person going to the administration saying that they felt threatened by the first person's statements on facebook and ultimately led to the first person getting fired. The first person was already known to be a disgruntled employee who bashed the hospital on facebook as well, so I'm sure that didn't help their cause with the administration.

I will never understand why people feel the need to post their every inner thought on facebook. Am I the only person whose mama told them that if they couldn't say something nice about someone else, they shouldn't say anything at all? At least save sharing your backbiting for your personal friends who you can trust, and don't put it into writing where it can come back to bite you in the derriere.

 

[ferning]

Freedom of speech, look it up

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Freedom of speech, look it up

You have every right to say (almost) anything you want about your employer.

Your employer has every right to fire you for it. "Freedom of speech" refers to the government -- they can't prevent people from speaking their minds, can't jail people for their opinions, etc. You may have the right to say anything you want, but the law does not prevent that "free speech" from having consequences, including losing your job.

 

[Dral]

Yep, Freedom of Speech does not apply in this instance. One can be fired and the person being fired can't really do anything about it in terms of 'Freedom of Speech'. All that protection means, is the person can't be arrested or persecuted by the law.

Medical groups and hospitals have to take social media stuff very seriously. If someone bad mouths on them, who is to say that an individual won't post things that compromise pt privacy?

My intern year program told us on day one that we would basically be fired if we posted anything on Facebook bearing name/image of the institution. They have every right to do so.

 

[res1212]

It looks like the OP was banned, so let's try and get back to creating that list. This is what has been listed, so far:

1. University of Chicago - Anesthesiology - I received message that the program has extended training of several residents in the last few years and fired one resident who ended up going to the Cleveland Clinic program where they did well.

2. Beth Israel in Boston - OB/GYN - I received message that a resident was terminated due to issues with an attending about 5 years ago and that the resident went to another program and did well.

3. Ochsner General Surgery - post above reports 2 residents were terminated in their 3rd yr of residency d/t failing Step 3 > 2x each and not being able to pass it by the required PGY-3 year.

4. University of Mississippi General Surgery - message received that PGY4 resident dismissed last year, reportedly due to anger management issues.

5. Johns Hopkins General Surgery - PGY3 resident terminated allegedly due to mental health issues. (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=660565 )

6. VCU-Shenandoah Valley Family Practice Residency - reportedly PGY1 resident notified of contract non-renewal, resident appealed and was placed on probation, subsequently resigned - (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=658953 )

7. Cleveland Clinic Neurosurgery - reportedly terminate a resident about every year (see above post)

8. Southern Illinois University Internal Medicine - received message that they terminated a resident.

9. Rapid City Family Medicine - received message that they have terminated a handful of residents over the past 3 or 4 years.

10. Providence Family Medicine in Olympia, WA - received message that they fired a resident last year.

11. Spokane Internal Medicine - received message that they reportedly terminated one last year as well.

12. Univ of Texas San Antonio Internal Medicine - received message that they seems to fire one out of each class or so.

13. Franklin Sq Hospital in Baltimore Internal Medicine - received message that program seems to fire one resident every year.

14. Forbes Family Practice in Monroeville PA - reportedly fired 4 residents in past 3 years - see above post.

15. St. Mary Medical Center in Long Beach Internal Medicine--received message of 2 terminated in 3 years, possible PD blackballing to prevent them working anywhere else.

16. Kaiser-San Francisco Internal Medicine--at least one terminated, also rampant favoritism by the faculty according to message

Carillion clinic roanoke virginia family med they have a pgy-2 slot come up every year for the last several years theres gotta be a problem there

Links provided:
http://www.jdunderground.com/mdunderground/thread.php?threadId=9091
Nothing new here in a year or so.

http://www.cirseiu.org/
Resident Unionization

The system is stacked against the resident, let's keep up the good work with listing the programs that do this.

The above list is completely ridiculous. Residency programs don't want to "fire" residents - its not practical, and it only creates more work and stress for all parties. Attendings don't go into teaching because they enjoy torturing residents - they go into it because they love medicine and want to help residents learn and become great doctors! In many ways its a thankless and very very difficult job!! The problem is that anyone can say anything they want and anyone can file a lawsuit, including people who have been lazy and shirked their work, and who have lied and refused to do any work at all or otherwise violated their contract. In my understanding, usually the program is in the unwelcome position of having no choice but to fire the resident, after many months of agony trying to help someone to meet all of their requirements and turn the corner. I've been the chief of my program for the last year and its truly amazing the incredible patience and care that the residents receive from the attendings. Creating a list of "malignant" programs is completely arbitrary, opinion-driven, and COMPLETELY UNFAIR to the reputations of the GOOD programs you are tarnishing (not to mention extremely arrogant too). There are always two sides to every story.

 

[res1212]

p.s. The system is absolutely NOT stacked up against the resident - if you read the residency contract that we all sign or knew anything at all about how residency programs work you would not go anywhere near to claiming this.

 

[res1212]

It looks like the OP was banned, so let's try and get back to creating that list. This is what has been listed, so far:

1. University of Chicago - Anesthesiology - I received message that the program has extended training of several residents in the last few years and fired one resident who ended up going to the Cleveland Clinic program where they did well.

2. Beth Israel in Boston - OB/GYN - I received message that a resident was terminated due to issues with an attending about 5 years ago and that the resident went to another program and did well.

3. Ochsner General Surgery - post above reports 2 residents were terminated in their 3rd yr of residency d/t failing Step 3 > 2x each and not being able to pass it by the required PGY-3 year.

4. University of Mississippi General Surgery - message received that PGY4 resident dismissed last year, reportedly due to anger management issues.

5. Johns Hopkins General Surgery - PGY3 resident terminated allegedly due to mental health issues. (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=660565 )

6. VCU-Shenandoah Valley Family Practice Residency - reportedly PGY1 resident notified of contract non-renewal, resident appealed and was placed on probation, subsequently resigned - (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=658953 )

7. Cleveland Clinic Neurosurgery - reportedly terminate a resident about every year (see above post)

8. Southern Illinois University Internal Medicine - received message that they terminated a resident.

9. Rapid City Family Medicine - received message that they have terminated a handful of residents over the past 3 or 4 years.

10. Providence Family Medicine in Olympia, WA - received message that they fired a resident last year.

11. Spokane Internal Medicine - received message that they reportedly terminated one last year as well.

12. Univ of Texas San Antonio Internal Medicine - received message that they seems to fire one out of each class or so.

13. Franklin Sq Hospital in Baltimore Internal Medicine - received message that program seems to fire one resident every year.

14. Forbes Family Practice in Monroeville PA - reportedly fired 4 residents in past 3 years - see above post.

15. St. Mary Medical Center in Long Beach Internal Medicine--received message of 2 terminated in 3 years, possible PD blackballing to prevent them working anywhere else.

16. Kaiser-San Francisco Internal Medicine--at least one terminated, also rampant favoritism by the faculty according to message

Carillion clinic roanoke virginia family med they have a pgy-2 slot come up every year for the last several years theres gotta be a problem there

Links provided:
http://www.jdunderground.com/mdunderground/thread.php?threadId=9091
Nothing new here in a year or so.

http://www.cirseiu.org/
Resident Unionization

The system is stacked against the resident, let's keep up the good work with listing the programs that do this.

The above list is completely ridiculous. Residency programs don't want to "fire" residents - its not practical, and it only creates more work and stress for all parties. Attendings don't go into teaching because they enjoy torturing residents - they go into it because they love medicine and want to help residents learn and become great doctors! In many ways its a thankless and very very difficult job!! The problem is that anyone can say anything they want and anyone can file a lawsuit, including people who have been lazy and shirked their work, and who have lied and refused to do any work at all or otherwise violated their contract. In my understanding, usually the program is in the unwelcome position of having no choice but to fire the resident, after many months of agony trying to help someone to meet all of their requirements and turn the corner. I've been the chief of my program for the last year and its truly amazing the incredible patience and care that the residents receive from the attendings. Creating a list of "malignant" programs is completely arbitrary, opinion-driven, and COMPLETELY UNFAIR to the reputations of the GOOD programs you are tarnishing (not to mention extremely arrogant too). There are always two sides to every story.

 

[chocomorsel]

res1212, I suspect you are either an attending, or a naive resident that has drank their cool aid (chief or not). They may not want to "fire" residents, but they sure want to show them a lesson and who is the boss, if the resident pisses off the wrong attending, embarrasses the program or a number of other crap that is politically motivated.

I was at a program that fired two residents, one I don't think deserved it, the other had some serious addiction issues and couldn't stay clean. When the first firing happened, I totally believed that the program had done the right thing. Until they started focusing on me. They needed a problem resident to focus on and since I was opinionated and didn't "lay low" therefore creating waves, I was their next target. I got in touch with the resident who got fired and boy did she have a story to tell, that the program was trying to hide under wraps.

There's a lot of drama that happens that you may have blinders to. So please don't make a blanket statement like the one above. I would venture to say the the only "ridiculous" thing is the naivete coming from a chief resident.

 

[meerkat111]

This above response is very much my experience in my own malignant residency. I still dont know what to do about the residents who call me because after I left, they are now being targeted. Imho, residents have to unionize and stop this abuse. I actually found a ppt presentation on program directors algorithms on how to deal with problem residents. In malignant programs the problem resident really does not have real problems, the faculty will just pick one or two to abuse.

 

[chocomorsel]

Luckily, I was at a residency that had a resident's union and they helped me immensely. When the program tried to extend my residency, I fought it with the unions help and came out on top with the appeal, meaning graduation on time. In my case, there was a newly minted PD who was trying to change the whole culture of the place. It used to be a pretty cool residency until she came along and tried to overhaul it and I was the problem resident for two years. Once they told me to work on my grades and I improved dramatically, they focused on my personality. I don't know how many times I was written up, and nasty-grams sent to the PD due to my "unprofessionalism". If you look up my old posts from 2010-2011 you will see what I was posting about. Yes, I was a very disgruntled resident and I almost threw in the towel and ended up in counseling and on meds due to anxiety. They were also stalking me on SDN. A couple of my colleagues let me know that they did that during the chief resident's meeting. He was a good friend of the chief, who when asked, straight up lied for the program. Sad state of affairs.

Thank God, that's over and I had a few attendings who did not drink the "troubled resident" Kool Aid that was going on around the department about me. In the end, I successfully finished. Of course, I got a call less than a year later from one of my junior resident who was now the whipping boy once I left. Another minority.

 

[meerkat111]

What does it mean by "written up"? Someone filed a report? Sorry, I don't know what that means.

 

[chocomorsel]

Means attendings would send "concerned about her professionalism" emails or give those kind of evaluations about me to the PD. Word was out that I was the problem resident and every minor infraction was magnified. I had quite a reputation.

 

[laughalot]

Res1212 makes a valid point. This list has a lot of biases. Frankly, if a resident does their job (shows up, studies, interacts nicely with others, passes their USmLE, shows growth) then I doubt that resident would be dismissed. But hey...if you don't show up for work or don't pass your steps, then you have breached your contract. Residency is still a business. If you don't pass your boards you can't get fully licensed to practice medicine.

 

[Top Gun]

Res1212 makes a valid point. This list has a lot of biases. Frankly, if a resident does their job (shows up, studies, interacts nicely with others, passes their USmLE, shows growth) then I doubt that resident would be dismissed. But hey...if you don't show up for work or don't pass your steps, then you have breached your contract. Residency is still a business. If you don't pass your boards you can't get fully licensed to practice medicine.

Not necessarily. It depends on the program. In the benign programs, which admittedly are probably the majority of residencies, this would generally be the case. However, there are residency programs out there with malignant faculty, where your success as a resident depends more on your skills at political maneuvering rather than your clinical competency. Even if you are the most competent resident in the program, but somehow manage to p*$$ off one of the attendings, and that attending happens to be very tight with the PD, you could be screwed. I don't doubt that most residents who were terminated at least partially deserved it, but there are also very skilled residents who somehow end up on the PD's bad side, and end up being put on probation or even terminated. The reasons for ending up on a PD's/faculty member's bad side are many. Sometimes it could be as simple as a cross-cultural misunderstanding, particularly in the case of an IMG. Or it could even come down to racial or gender discrimination on the part of the PD/faculty.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

I too think this list is mostly useless. Every firing I have personally known of and personally been able to verify the details of were 100% justified, and often everyone else in the program was wondering what took so long.

That being said I do think there are all-IMG residencies, the workhorse scut monkey s^&*y residencies, who hire people with minimal credentials who by all other matrices of success wouldn't be predicted to do well. In those places they might hire 30 and expect that only 20 of them will be halfway decent-- the trouble is, they don't know which 10 will need to be fired when they start. So kindof like the old pyramidal systems, they watch everyone like hawks to see who will fail-- and once you get in the bad books, it's hard to get out.

 

[Jewishprincess]

By good report--the psychiatry department at George Washington University (GW) has fired four residents over the last two years. And maybe a fifth. All were pgy 1-2's and all women.

The GW psychiatry department accepts 6 new residents per year. So the firing rate is enormous--around a third of all entering residents. Allegedly, nobody has been able to find a new position, open third year psych spots being essentially unknown.

Firings from psych residencies are very rare. Perhaps GWU has been extraordinarily unlucky in the match. But more likely, there is a problem.

My informants tell me it may be related to the nature of psych residencies, where the department makes money off residents the first two years, but then loses money on the ACGME-mandated outpatient third year. Also, sometimes it is difficult to find all the necessary community-based clinical rotations.

One solution is to get rid of any excess residents, in a pattern reminiscent of the old pyramidal system. Too bad about all the residents whose medical careers are thus ruined. "You want fries with that?"

Mandatory publication of the number of fired residents would go far to prevent such abuses. Given an alternative, nobody in their right mind would enter such a program.

 

[Baller MD]

Nvm

 

[Crayola227]

Listing programs that terminate residents is practical for one reason alone:

Not tarnish any program's reputation, but basically, going to a program that has fired residents, deserved or not, shows that they are willing to fire residents. That doesn't mean that programs that have no history of firing residents will not do so in the future, or that the resident firing were or were not called for.

If one were only to consider their own career/job safety, and not give a f*ck about colleague performance or patient safety or whether such a hypothetical program might exist, but it might be better off at a program that will not fire residents under any circumstance, like even if the resident took out a scapel and stabbed an attending to death, than at a program that has a history of firing residents, because who knows if they did so because of the above scenario or because when the resident brought a cup of cappuccino to an attending it didn't have enough foam.

Plus, even if were deserved, patterns emerge, and do you really want to be at a program that has fired like let's say 5 residents in 3 years? All considerations aside, at best that resulted in coverage programs the rest of the resident had to deal with, and at best may be an indicator of issues in the selection process of that program. At worst it may be a sign of being termination-happy.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Luckily, I was at a residency that had a resident's union and they helped me immensely. When the program tried to extend my residency, I fought it with the unions help and came out on top with the appeal, meaning graduation on time. In my case, there was a newly minted PD who was trying to change the whole culture of the place. It used to be a pretty cool residency until she came along and tried to overhaul it and I was the problem resident for two years. Once they told me to work on my grades and I improved dramatically, they focused on my personality. I don't know how many times I was written up, and nasty-grams sent to the PD due to my "unprofessionalism". If you look up my old posts from 2010-2011 you will see what I was posting about. Yes, I was a very disgruntled resident and I almost threw in the towel and ended up in counseling and on meds due to anxiety. They were also stalking me on SDN. A couple of my colleagues let me know that they did that during the chief resident's meeting. He was a good friend of the chief, who when asked, straight up lied for the program. Sad state of affairs.

Thank God, that's over and I had a few attendings who did not drink the "troubled resident" Kool Aid that was going on around the department about me. In the end, I successfully finished. Of course, I got a call less than a year later from one of my junior resident who was now the whipping boy once I left. Another minority.

It is a shame more programs don't have a resident's union or an olmbudsman system.

I know exactly how you felt. Unfortunately, I just didn't have a resident's union to help. Thankfully, I'm somewhere better.

 

[Chicago2012]

Here, I'll just put this here

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Here, I'll just put this here

I'm glad a med student has a lot to contribute in a resident/intern's forum.

 

[Siggy]

I'm glad a med student has a lot to contribute in a resident/intern's forum.

Doesn't make it any less true.

Which residencies terminates residents? They all do.

What is the line for termination? Somewhere between writing a bad progress note and being convicted of first degree murder (I will bet that every residency will terminate a resident who was convicted of first degree murder).

Where is that line? It varies from residency to residency.

Should I believe any story posted in this thread? No, because there's the resident's side, the programs side (which we'll never hear) and the truth (which we'll never get to because we will never have all of the facts).

So any posting here is just airing out dirty laundry.

 

[preDoGuy24]

Doesn't make it any less true.

Which residencies terminates residents? They all do.

What is the line for termination? Somewhere between writing a bad progress note and being convicted of first degree murder (I will bet that every residency will terminate a resident who was convicted of first degree murder).

Where is that line? It varies from residency to residency.

Should I believe any story posted in this thread? No, because there's the resident's side, the programs side (which we'll never hear) and the truth (which we'll never get to because we will never have all of the facts).

So any posting here is just airing out dirty laundry.

Can't bold from my phone but definitely didn't realizing that's what they meant till you mentioned "airing out dirty laundry". It's been a long morning on G-Surg.

Agree with everything else. Well put.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crayola227]

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Doesn't make it any less true.

Which residencies terminates residents? They all do.

What is the line for termination? Somewhere between writing a bad progress note and being convicted of first degree murder (I will bet that every residency will terminate a resident who was convicted of first degree murder).

Where is that line? It varies from residency to residency.

Should I believe any story posted in this thread? No, because there's the resident's side, the programs side (which we'll never hear) and the truth (which we'll never get to because we will never have all of the facts).

So any posting here is just airing out dirty laundry.

I do agree. As with anything in life, take what's written with a major grain of salt

 

[Shikima]

A comprehensive list for people to view isn't necessarily bad or good. Some will ignore it, others taking with a grain of salt.... and there are those which will obsess about it.

 

[turundu]

Agree.

There's nothing wrong with having this information available on the Internet, it can help many to make decisions.

We shouldn't censure/ban stuff, unless it violates SDN rules.

Keep them coming.

 

[turundu]

It looks like the OP was banned, so let's try and get back to creating that list. This is what has been listed, so far:

1. University of Chicago - Anesthesiology - I received message that the program has extended training of several residents in the last few years and fired one resident who ended up going to the Cleveland Clinic program where they did well.

2. Beth Israel in Boston - OB/GYN - I received message that a resident was terminated due to issues with an attending about 5 years ago and that the resident went to another program and did well.

3. Ochsner General Surgery - post above reports 2 residents were terminated in their 3rd yr of residency d/t failing Step 3 > 2x each and not being able to pass it by the required PGY-3 year.

4. University of Mississippi General Surgery - message received that PGY4 resident dismissed last year, reportedly due to anger management issues.

5. Johns Hopkins General Surgery - PGY3 resident terminated allegedly due to mental health issues. (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=660565 )

6. VCU-Shenandoah Valley Family Practice Residency - reportedly PGY1 resident notified of contract non-renewal, resident appealed and was placed on probation, subsequently resigned - (see link: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=658953 )

7. Cleveland Clinic Neurosurgery - reportedly terminate a resident about every year (see above post)

8. Southern Illinois University Internal Medicine - received message that they terminated a resident.

9. Rapid City Family Medicine - received message that they have terminated a handful of residents over the past 3 or 4 years.

10. Providence Family Medicine in Olympia, WA - received message that they fired a resident last year.

11. Spokane Internal Medicine - received message that they reportedly terminated one last year as well.

12. Univ of Texas San Antonio Internal Medicine - received message that they seems to fire one out of each class or so.

13. Franklin Sq Hospital in Baltimore Internal Medicine - received message that program seems to fire one resident every year.

14. Forbes Family Practice in Monroeville PA - reportedly fired 4 residents in past 3 years - see above post.

15. St. Mary Medical Center in Long Beach Internal Medicine--received message of 2 terminated in 3 years, possible PD blackballing to prevent them working anywhere else.

16. Kaiser-San Francisco Internal Medicine--at least one terminated, also rampant favoritism by the faculty according to message

Carillion clinic roanoke virginia family med they have a pgy-2 slot come up every year for the last several years theres gotta be a problem there

Links provided:
http://www.jdunderground.com/mdunderground/thread.php?threadId=9091
Nothing new here in a year or so.

http://www.cirseiu.org/
Resident Unionization

The system is stacked against the resident, let's keep up the good work with listing the programs that do this.

Cases that went to court:
-Nayak v. St Vincent (ADA) -- Settled, finished training somewhere else.
-Castrillon v. St. Vincent (Gender) -- Recently settled.
-Bulwer v. Mt. Auburn (National Origin) -- Heading to trial after decision reversed by appeal.
-Marlow v. Rush (ADA/Whistleblower) -- Settled outside court.
-McDaniel v. Loyola -- Ongoing, discrimination and defamation claims survived MTD.