@yossarian444 Thank you for your honesty. I haven't started medical school yet, but I have friends that are residents and I feel your pain. I don't think you should go on living like that, without passion in your life. My advice, for what it's worth: focus on diet and exercise in your spare time. Meditate, read about spirituality. Life is too short to live miserably. Be grateful for all that you have, there are people out there suffering very badly in other parts of the world AND in the U.S. Sorry if this doesn't resonate with you, my family had a tough upbringing. We are okay now but we had to struggle to get to where we are. A career as a physician is something I'd be very grateful to have, especially knowing my roots.
Listen to the naysayers or why I left medical school
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No thank you for your honesty. But I'll give you mine since you're offering yours. You suck at advice and are tortuous at being therapeutic. Not that yosarian can't handle his or herself. But you just recommended suicide, joining a cult, or finding a guru, followed by how amazing you are.
If you're not a resident or haven't been one....just generally shut up. F'n wingnuts around here sometimes....Jesus Christ.
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Jeez @Nasrudin you just took everything that I said to the extreme negative. I wouldn't do any of the things you mentioned, nor would I recommend them (except maybe finding an authentic mentor/guru you can trust). Perception is everything. You are right I'm not a medical resident but I've lived with one for several months. It's not the same as being one but I've seen the struggle he goes through. yossarian seems miserable and I was just trying to help by sharing what worked for me in difficult times, it's completely up to him whether he follows my advice or not. I wasn't trying to give residency advice, just life advice. So now you're saying non-residents aren't allowed to give any advice period? Being a resident is tough but not the only difficult job out there so get off your high horse. You know absolutely nothing about me, and I know nothing about you. Thank you for judging my entire existence from a single post. I could make a lot of assumptions about you from your post but I wont. Thank you for your advice and have a nice day.
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@yossarian444 Sorry if my post to you came off as arrogant in any way, that was not my intention. I absolutely respect the sacrifices you made and are continuing to make as a resident.
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Find an authentic guru....haha. Find an authentic hooker has the same meaning. But at least you get something from the latter.
Look...yeah...I'm breakin balls here. The thread title isn't what the purpose of this...this solar system, it's blue green rock, with bipedal apes going wild on it, spinning around in the Milky Way, hurtling outward from some unknowable event.
It's a dude...who looked at his life, what was important to him, and what was in store for him, and cashed out his chips. Which took donkey-sized chutzpah.
Then a weary resident comes along a says...yeah man...I get it...I don't even feel this **** anymore. And what else happens but exactly what hat DrML predicts but a bunch of choir boys pure and true, as certain of the glories of medicine as they are likely to get molested by it, just going right of script...year after year...after mf'n year.
Medicine is a good paying job in a vacuous economy. Until you know exactly how useless you are inside it, filling out reams of paperwork so your employers get their pay and by small fraction yours, from the Sith Lords of the insurance racket, just cool the fervor for a minute....and just listen.
Look...yeah...I'm breakin balls here. The thread title isn't what the purpose of this...this solar system, it's blue green rock, with bipedal apes going wild on it, spinning around in the Milky Way, hurtling outward from some unknowable event.
It's a dude...who looked at his life, what was important to him, and what was in store for him, and cashed out his chips. Which took donkey-sized chutzpah.
Then a weary resident comes along a says...yeah man...I get it...I don't even feel this **** anymore. And what else happens but exactly what hat DrML predicts but a bunch of choir boys pure and true, as certain of the glories of medicine as they are likely to get molested by it, just going right of script...year after year...after mf'n year.
Medicine is a good paying job in a vacuous economy. Until you know exactly how useless you are inside it, filling out reams of paperwork so your employers get their pay and by small fraction yours, from the Sith Lords of the insurance racket, just cool the fervor for a minute....and just listen.
I get it Nasrudin, it's a crappy situation I'm not doubting that for a bit. Hell I'm going into it having an idea of how medicine truly is from reading anecdotes on SDN. You already know cashing out of medicine is definitely not an option for everyone, some are in too deep (debt). As crappy as my advice is I'm trying my best here. I just don't think sitting back miserably and letting the system hurl you around is the best answer. Maybe things will get better when residency is done, maybe they wont. All I'm saying is everyone deserves a shot at happiness regardless of their present situation, as cheesy as that sounds. I'm generalizing of course, if you're stuck in the ghetto, or war torn Iraq, Syria, Ukraine, etc, or you have some devastating physical/mental disability, then it's obviously going to be harder to see the bright side of things. But if residency isn't cutting it for you guys in terms of fulfillment, and you can't back out, maybe you gotta look elsewhere in your spare time to find it? That's why I mentioned all of the things I did (exercise, meditation, reading, etc). I know, it's not very specific or detailed advice. I'm just trying to show you all that maybe you have more control over your happiness then you think.
In the end life's a grind for pretty much everyone and then you die, unless you are lucky enough to win the lottery or be born into wealth. Even then if that causes sloth that comes with its own host of problems. Is the grass really that green on the other side of medicine? I don't know. Most people aren't working the jobs that will fulfill them, but that is not true for everyone. Maybe there is something else you'd rather be doing, but it may be tough to back out now given individual circumstances. I'm not saying it's not possible to back out, but it might be better maybe try to make the best of the situation you guys are in and hold off until residency is done. Your mind might change once you start making an attending salary. If not you can always pay off your debt and then pursue what you think will really make you happy. The time that is lost is gone, it has to be let go. Trust me I wasted many years bouncing around and have made peace with that fact. Maybe looking forward to the future is a better or healthier mindset.
And I apologize in advance for the music video but I thought it was appropriate lol.
In the end life's a grind for pretty much everyone and then you die, unless you are lucky enough to win the lottery or be born into wealth. Even then if that causes sloth that comes with its own host of problems. Is the grass really that green on the other side of medicine? I don't know. Most people aren't working the jobs that will fulfill them, but that is not true for everyone. Maybe there is something else you'd rather be doing, but it may be tough to back out now given individual circumstances. I'm not saying it's not possible to back out, but it might be better maybe try to make the best of the situation you guys are in and hold off until residency is done. Your mind might change once you start making an attending salary. If not you can always pay off your debt and then pursue what you think will really make you happy. The time that is lost is gone, it has to be let go. Trust me I wasted many years bouncing around and have made peace with that fact. Maybe looking forward to the future is a better or healthier mindset.
And I apologize in advance for the music video but I thought it was appropriate lol.
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The pre-reqs I found to be very straightforward and relatively easy. Including Biochem, Phys, and Cell. I had around 45 hrs in my post-bacc with a 4.0 and worked hard but probably only 2-3 hrs a day of dedicated studying. In medical school I had to work hard much harder and many more hours to stay around the average.
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Thanks Jack, best of luck to you as well. I certainly admire docs now but for completely different reasons than when I went in. You guys are putting yourselves through hell and I'll always treat my physicians with respect for at least that.
Thanks for sharing this perspective. I was very concerned that I might have the same experience as you, and kept re-evaluating my path over the first 18 months. I really appreciate your courage to try medicine and also to leave when you realized it is not for you.
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I'm really glad you figured this out for yourself, however for someone in your situation I believe that having supportive (and present) extended family are the only way to make it work.
I can't imagine being a med student and resident with a spouse and infant.
Good luck with your future endeavors. Be well!
I can't imagine being a med student and resident with a spouse and infant.
Good luck with your future endeavors. Be well!
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Over 1 year update.
I've rebooted my career as an engineer in the energy sector. Great salary, 401k, pension, annual bonuses, 40 hr weeks, 4 weeks of vacation, friendly work environment, actual professionalism, working for a big American company with small town values. My wife and I built a new house last year which we are loving living in. Great neighborhood, similar values as the neighbors.
I don't miss medical school. My old class mates are studying for step 1 right now. Leaving medical school was the best decision of my life, going was my most expensive mistake ( 24k+), I wish I had that cash back in my savings account but that's the price you pay for idealism.
I hate that medicine did not turn out to be what I hope it would be and what I imaged (idealized) it should be. Doctors lost control, administrators and bureaucrats run health care. I feel terrible for Doctors knowing what they go through to get where they are, only to be **** on by ass-hats with a business or law degree or less.
In short, I have absolutely no regrets, and speak weekly with my spouse about how happy we are to have left medical school.
Best of luck to anyone on the fence, it's not an easy decision nor an easy road either way. I still have immense respect for physicians but can not and will not recommend it to anyone willing to listen.
I've rebooted my career as an engineer in the energy sector. Great salary, 401k, pension, annual bonuses, 40 hr weeks, 4 weeks of vacation, friendly work environment, actual professionalism, working for a big American company with small town values. My wife and I built a new house last year which we are loving living in. Great neighborhood, similar values as the neighbors.
I don't miss medical school. My old class mates are studying for step 1 right now. Leaving medical school was the best decision of my life, going was my most expensive mistake ( 24k+), I wish I had that cash back in my savings account but that's the price you pay for idealism.
I hate that medicine did not turn out to be what I hope it would be and what I imaged (idealized) it should be. Doctors lost control, administrators and bureaucrats run health care. I feel terrible for Doctors knowing what they go through to get where they are, only to be **** on by ass-hats with a business or law degree or less.
In short, I have absolutely no regrets, and speak weekly with my spouse about how happy we are to have left medical school.
Best of luck to anyone on the fence, it's not an easy decision nor an easy road either way. I still have immense respect for physicians but can not and will not recommend it to anyone willing to listen.
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deleted547631
Thank you for taking the time to update the thread!
Also, great to hear that you plugged in to the workforce successfully and are finding balance in your life. No question that the process of getting through medical school and training is a massive uphill slog. It's also a highly, highly regulated profession with many hands vying for a piece of the pie. I do think it's worth it all in the end, though, but it's increasingly becoming a proposition where each of us has to truly weigh the return on investment and work-life balance.
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Well said. I think 15-20 years ago, if you could get into a US Allopathic medical school, it was a no brainer. Now, like you've said, people really need to think long and hard over the decision on a very specific and personal level. The landscape has change so much in healthcare that take home pay can no longer be the single driving factor, and obviously from the polls neither can job satisfaction.
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Congrats OP, I wish you all the best in your career!
Sadly, so many people on SDN think many of us are just being mean when we tell them that what they are posting doesn't sound like they are really wanting to be a physician. Posts like this are invaluable for others to read before taking the leap.
Sadly, so many people on SDN think many of us are just being mean when we tell them that what they are posting doesn't sound like they are really wanting to be a physician. Posts like this are invaluable for others to read before taking the leap.
So @WhippleWhileWeWork what tipped the scales MOST for you---hating the workload along with the massive accumulation of debt OR the kill on your quality of life? It sounds more like the latter, but I wonder how much influence the former had on your decision. I think the MASSIVE debt for many is ultimately the killer, b/c as things stands, short of giving time over to NHSC, it can take a long time to make up the debt--and in today's healthcare and economy, well, it matters... a lot.
Also, did you really just HATE the material you were forced to shove down your throat in daily, massive amounts?
I actually do know docs that love what they do, although the current climate is making it more and more difficult for them. Add the outlandish cost of medical school, and I see a more serious physician shortage on the horizon that predicted.
Also, did you really just HATE the material you were forced to shove down your throat in daily, massive amounts?
I actually do know docs that love what they do, although the current climate is making it more and more difficult for them. Add the outlandish cost of medical school, and I see a more serious physician shortage on the horizon that predicted.
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Nope
People eventually make their lives into a grind, no matter the circumstances. Trust fund kids don't seem any happier than most, and look at modern political hysterias over...t-girls in bathrooms, safe spaces on college campuses, and other such inane and extremely petty bollox.
How do you think people struggling with food security view our hysteria and counter-hysteria over trans girls in bathrooms?
I enjoyed reading [most of] this thread, especially the person who said after paying off debt and in societal collapse they would treat people for eggs and bacon (maybe not bacon, but I have priorities). I feel similarly but worry that maybe I'm too idealistic.
To OP: hearing your account of having built a house and working for an engineering firm and you and your wife enjoying it so much is inspiring to me. I joke frequently about selling our Bay Area condo and retiring in the midwest right now. In reality, we'd have to work a little bit but my current career and wife's PharmD would carry us anywhere we want to go. It's a tough mental balance for me; after finishing undergrad with my career experience, I could easily get a very good paying public or private sector job and work 40-50 hours/week and wife could per diem/part time and we could retire in our 40s. But I don't think I'd be happy knowing that I didn't at least try for medical school and, really, I don't think I'll be happy doing anything that doesn't have me working directly for and with people.
Man, you really stacked the cards against yourself by having a kid the first year of medschool, didn't you?! Our son is 8 months old and I've been back in school since my wife was in her second trimester. I started with one class at a time and am now a mostly full time student and work full time. This year has been tough but my wife tells me all she has heard regarding parenting is that the first year is the hardest. I'm hoping this is the case because we're 66% of the way there. I know things don't quiet down on day 366 but I think they're slowly getting easier. Fortunately, I'm still taking basic classes (working on baccalaureate degree in bio) so the study-load isn't extreme. We'll likely have our second child in the next 2 years and I don't intend on applying for medical school until ~4 years from now.
To OP: hearing your account of having built a house and working for an engineering firm and you and your wife enjoying it so much is inspiring to me. I joke frequently about selling our Bay Area condo and retiring in the midwest right now. In reality, we'd have to work a little bit but my current career and wife's PharmD would carry us anywhere we want to go. It's a tough mental balance for me; after finishing undergrad with my career experience, I could easily get a very good paying public or private sector job and work 40-50 hours/week and wife could per diem/part time and we could retire in our 40s. But I don't think I'd be happy knowing that I didn't at least try for medical school and, really, I don't think I'll be happy doing anything that doesn't have me working directly for and with people.
Man, you really stacked the cards against yourself by having a kid the first year of medschool, didn't you?! Our son is 8 months old and I've been back in school since my wife was in her second trimester. I started with one class at a time and am now a mostly full time student and work full time. This year has been tough but my wife tells me all she has heard regarding parenting is that the first year is the hardest. I'm hoping this is the case because we're 66% of the way there. I know things don't quiet down on day 366 but I think they're slowly getting easier. Fortunately, I'm still taking basic classes (working on baccalaureate degree in bio) so the study-load isn't extreme. We'll likely have our second child in the next 2 years and I don't intend on applying for medical school until ~4 years from now.
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It depends on the child. The first six months with my first daughter was rough, but I was also away a lot and unable to communicate, which made it way more difficult for my wife. Our second child is 4 months old and chill as ****. She has slept through the night since she was a few weeks old and just hangs out, happy as a clam. My eldest is only 19 months, but has changed so much. It hasn't really gotten easier, just different.
Honestly, I have to wonder how many people that didn't think this through like Whipple, and they just kept going--and then, even though they were miserable--even if good at what they do--God they suck to work with. Some people are just miserable and they think their hardazzedness is a major plus. They think it makes them superior, but they don't have an interest in having a collegial spirit. Then you have those getting through but don't give enough of a crap and aren't hardazzed enough about important things. And what no one realizes is that eventually everyone hits a major humble-pie-time. It makes them better to work with or they just continue to be a drain and a downer on everyone else. So these folks can't set a good tone that is uplifting to others.
Not too long ago I met a 2nd or 3rd year resident basically say life is pretty much over at 65? What the? I don't know what got into her/him or what's going on w/ his/her residency program, but all I could think of is how, like many others, they may just give a bit of a lesser try for some over 60. Like screw them. Their life is over anyway.
This attitude has always sickened me. And this is what comes of people that are miserable in their work as docs--or perhaps those who need a nice break or some more insight into life. I guess ageism is one of the more "acceptable" isms to have over race or anything else.
"Yea. Screw it. If you are > 60, you get 5 rounds of epi in the code, some cpr and few defibrillation cycles, and we are calling it a day. This kind of attitude really freaks me out. I am hoping it's just from someone who has been busting his/her butt in residency and just needs a break, and not from someone who actually dislikes or hates what he or she is doing but feels stuck.
So thanks for not allowing yourself to get stuck Whipple. It's good for you. Good for your patients. Good for those that would have to work with you. You can only keep that misery in so long. The resident to who I am referring seemed competent, but seemed like a real downer to work with. Patients are sick and have enough misery. I loathe working with regularly miserable people. I have done and do it, but seriously, it sucks when people are often bringing others down in their work or learning experiences. I can tell a miserable resident too, when they are well past 1st year and have no desire to be positive in their teaching and Lord the things they are fresh in over others. There is so much in healthcare that brings the word SUCKS to mind, but miserable people in medicine is a toxic hell for others around them, and they suck at being great role models. Yea. You know your stuff you do every day for a 100 hours per day. Great. Now bring others up w/ your working knowledge; don't use to try to feel superior while also bringing others down. And for God's sake, smile more. Life is hard. Most of us really, really get that, but we try not to wallow in it.
Rant done.
Just saying...if you are miserable in what you are doing, jump ship--or start looking for a workable path out. There is already an over-abundance of toxicity and pollution in HC. If you are miserable, chances are, you are definitely going to make others miserable.
Not too long ago I met a 2nd or 3rd year resident basically say life is pretty much over at 65? What the? I don't know what got into her/him or what's going on w/ his/her residency program, but all I could think of is how, like many others, they may just give a bit of a lesser try for some over 60. Like screw them. Their life is over anyway.
This attitude has always sickened me. And this is what comes of people that are miserable in their work as docs--or perhaps those who need a nice break or some more insight into life. I guess ageism is one of the more "acceptable" isms to have over race or anything else.
"Yea. Screw it. If you are > 60, you get 5 rounds of epi in the code, some cpr and few defibrillation cycles, and we are calling it a day. This kind of attitude really freaks me out. I am hoping it's just from someone who has been busting his/her butt in residency and just needs a break, and not from someone who actually dislikes or hates what he or she is doing but feels stuck.
So thanks for not allowing yourself to get stuck Whipple. It's good for you. Good for your patients. Good for those that would have to work with you. You can only keep that misery in so long. The resident to who I am referring seemed competent, but seemed like a real downer to work with. Patients are sick and have enough misery. I loathe working with regularly miserable people. I have done and do it, but seriously, it sucks when people are often bringing others down in their work or learning experiences. I can tell a miserable resident too, when they are well past 1st year and have no desire to be positive in their teaching and Lord the things they are fresh in over others. There is so much in healthcare that brings the word SUCKS to mind, but miserable people in medicine is a toxic hell for others around them, and they suck at being great role models. Yea. You know your stuff you do every day for a 100 hours per day. Great. Now bring others up w/ your working knowledge; don't use to try to feel superior while also bringing others down. And for God's sake, smile more. Life is hard. Most of us really, really get that, but we try not to wallow in it.
Rant done.
Just saying...if you are miserable in what you are doing, jump ship--or start looking for a workable path out. There is already an over-abundance of toxicity and pollution in HC. If you are miserable, chances are, you are definitely going to make others miserable.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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I can't exactly blame your resident for their lack of enthusiasm. I tend to look askance at torturing frail elderly people myself. Just because we can do it doesn't mean we should. Codes are people who are already dead. Unlike what they show on TV, most of them stay dead no matter what we do. If we get them back, most never leave the hospital alive. If they do leave the hospital alive, most end up as vegetables with broken ribs who die of secondary sequelae like pneumonia. If they make it out alive and neurologically intact, they probably weren't over age 65 with multiple medical comorbidities.
Not saying I disagree with your general sentiment regarding doing one's best for all patients regardless of their age or baseline health status. But assaulting a dead elderly person's body is probably not the best possible example to use. :-/
Not saying I disagree with your general sentiment regarding doing one's best for all patients regardless of their age or baseline health status. But assaulting a dead elderly person's body is probably not the best possible example to use. :-/
u
But you added the "frail" part. You can have a "frail" anybody. Trust me. I have certainly seen enough frail babies and kids. Yes. Let's just line those over 60 or so up for their glass of hemlock and make some nice Soylent Green surroundings for them on their way out. God, this really ticks me off. I totally see where society is going w/ this. My one up-note on this is that hopefully a good percentage of these people will live to see that they may be in pretty, damn, good shape, save maybe a problematic mitral valve repair or the like. Yes. The throw-away society, where we can just standardize when every person is disposable. Yikes.
But you added the "frail" part. You can have a "frail" anybody. Trust me. I have certainly seen enough frail babies and kids. Yes. Let's just line those over 60 or so up for their glass of hemlock and make some nice Soylent Green surroundings for them on their way out. God, this really ticks me off. I totally see where society is going w/ this. My one up-note on this is that hopefully a good percentage of these people will live to see that they may be in pretty, damn, good shape, save maybe a problematic mitral valve repair or the like. Yes. The throw-away society, where we can just standardize when every person is disposable. Yikes.
I disagree that codes are people that are already dead. Rubbish. Sudden cardiac arrest from a genetic LQT or something like that will kill you but it doesn't have to, and it can be turned around under the right guidance and treatment/s.
Only a truly frail person would be in such jeopardy at 65 for God's sake. It's a totally individual thing, depending upon many factors. But I just love that people in HC are often so quick to toss someone of a certain age aside like yesterday's leftovers.
I have stood over a lot of VERY sick kids, where all treatments, including repeated transplants didn't help them, and the sad reality is that mom and dad and the team need to let them go. I could tell sickening stories of kids put on ECMO who really shouldn't have been.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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If that's truly the resident's position (i.e., don't treat someone over age 60 simply because of their age), then sure, I share your outrage. But having done painful, futile things to people myself during codes that would ordinarily lead to my being arrested and imprisoned for assault under other circumstances, I have some sympathy for the reluctant resident. Any thoughtful person who doesn't stop and question why we're doing what we're doing during certain codes is likely a sadist.
Kids are a special case. It's not just the parents who have trouble letting them go; the staff do, too. It's traumatic for everyone involved to code a dead kid. That being said, there is some justification for prolonging codes of kids beyond just the fact that they're young and haven't lived their lives yet. Their physiology is different, and sometimes they can survive insults that would kill an adult. Cold water drowning is probably the best known example. Kids' arrests are also different than adults' arrests. Most kids don't have cardiovascular disease; their codes are respiratory in cause, not cardiac. Improve their oxygenation, and their hearts are fine. The opposite is true for middle-aged or elderly adults. If half of their heart has infarcted and died, there won't be much we can do about that. Flogging their heart harder with more rounds of epi doesn't bring those cells back to life.
I love the pediatric population, else I wouldn't work with them, but here's the thing. Everyone is special. No one person is more special b/c of age or anything else. That's a trap--a very bad way of thinking we have gotten into IMHO.
No one is talking about needlessly torturing people. Although, I have spent a large amount of pediatric time in cards ICUs, so I will say there are quite a number of little ones and teens, who were tortured for highly dubious outcomes. A baby waiting for a heart transplant can end up waiting a very long time, be prolonged in agony on ECMO, and/or die waiting; b/c you can't throw any size, matching donor heart into them.
So much relativity here, really. Quite a number of ugly codes in my time, both of adults and kids. But the motivation to save them shouldn't be diminished b/c of age-bias or any other such bias. More people than not of every age want to live to see what comes next & perhaps contribute again in some way, unless they are truly ready to die at the end of a long disease or have severe major depression--which BTW, quite a number of elderly have--and it often goes untreated in them. (An even bigger beef from me is how the elderly are neglected and treated in this country--of all damn countries, but that's another thread.)
A. The resident in question is chagrin at his/her career choice, which is fine, but it is clouding a bigger perspective, which, if s/he gives himself/herself time, s/he may and will probably come to see it.
B. Cheers on this: "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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If I could do it tomorrow, I would. Life is what it is. You do your best to work with it. But what does this have to do with anything...at all that we were talking about? Stop being cliquish already. And if I recall, this thread was about someone that decided to drop out before he got in too deep. I applauded him...and so did you. Better to do this than to be miserable and influence all those around you in a toxic, negative way.
If you make it to senior citizen, maybe I will see you around, and I won't disrespect you b/c of it. I will respect you for what you have done and lived in life, especially if it was truly helpful to others.
Why bully people for their opinions? It's part of the toxicity.
Also, you don't **** on others b/c you were **** on or b/c you can--see now, that's how it is done. You also don't play God with who is worthy of life and who isn't based on demographic nonsense or social biases. These kinds of things curdle my stomach--the unspoken in mixed company, subversive attitudes in medicine and healthcare. All people should receive the same level of care and respect and value for life. If they have an advanced directive, fine. But don't assume some 70 year old with a few physical problems is done with life b/c he's had some trouble.
Too much of this is the area of HC/medicine: "Misery, you have your company."
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If I could do it tomorrow, I would. Life is what it is. You do your best to work with it. But what does this have to do with anything...at all that we were talking about? Stop being cliquish already. And if I recall, this thread was about someone that decided to drop out before he got in too deep. I applauded him...and so did you. Better to do this than to be miserable and influence all those around you in a toxic, negative way.
If you make it to senior citizen, maybe I will see you around, and I won't disrespect you b/c of it. I will respect you for what you have done and lived in life, especially if it was truly helpful to others.
Why bully people for their opinions? It's part of the toxicity.
Also, you don't **** on others b/c you were **** on or b/c you can--see now, that's how it is done. You also don't play God with who is worthy of life and who isn't based on demographic nonsense or social biases. These kinds of things curdle my stomach--the unspoken in mixed company, subversive attitudes in medicine and healthcare. All people should receive the same level of care and respect and value for life. If they have an advanced directive, fine. But don't assume some 70 year old with a few physical problems is done with life b/c he's had some trouble.
Too much of this is the area of HC/medicine: "Misery, you have your company."
J. I take no pleasure in stating flatly to you that your preoccupation with how physicians conduct themselves is only so productive to your own life. As a motivation to do better. To become one yourself. But failing that, it becomes something toxic to yourself. That seeks the toxic in others.
This is a premed forum. The goal is to check out the nontrad notion of becoming a physician. decide if it's for you. And get on with it. and in getting on with it, figuring out how to get down on it. Like the 80's Kool n the Gang song. After they sold out on the ripping funk band they once were. I digress. and besides, it's lady's night, it's time to get your back up off the wall, and celebrate! (if you're a millennial you can take these obscure references as vague F you!, this is the nontrad forum! Stop emailing Q if you're twenty f'n two)
I'm neither toxic nor supportive. I merely survive. And destroy an idol or two occasionally. as is my more human nature as a heretic to do so. aside from being an MD.
There's not a drop of malice in my heart for you.
It's simple redirection. out of concern. and maybe a bit of intolerance for tedium. Ok. more than a little. But not worth any wasted malice. If I don't have the energy to hate the sell outs I have to call for prior auth's then why would i have a drop of it for a perennial premed?
Um, I haven't "emailed" or "pm'd" QofQuimica in ages. I haven't emailed/pm'd anyone in ages, and I hardly come here and comment, b/c of some needless negativity at times on SDN and my own life issues. So I have no to clue of what you speak. Also, Q responded to my comment, then I, then she, then I. SMH This is not an unusual course in a thread, especially on SDN.
And, no, actually many of us who work hard as productive RNs, students or not, get fed up with the toxicity. It's there. It's real, and frankly, I never want to get used to it, b/c it's bad medicine for everyone, period.
I appreciate your, um, concern, and will take it as sincere, b/c you have a very unique style, which is quite fine. But I get it. I am not yet "one of the boys." And so, the "Us vs. Them" mentality continues.
LOL, I have had to do case mgt and know about getting authorizations, writing letters of medical necessity and getting docs to sign them, doing huge write-ups for insurance appeal processes, sitting in conference and video conferences to maintain care for many pediatric clients that really needed the care. Yes, it sucks.
I don't share heavy things in my personal life. I've done summa cum work. There's **** going on, and I need someone's blessing here? When tragedy strikes, I am there for my love ones, while juggling the other massive loads of crap and trying to help people freely when I can.
Re: MS, if I make it or don't--perennial or not, really, what's it to you? I mean no disrespect. Just don't understand your point of bringing it up in such as way as to sound like, I don't know, some judgment. I mean, it's fine. People judge each other all the time--fairly, unfairly, it doesn't matter. You learn to deal with it, although life would be kinder w/o the judgments that are unfair or those that come w/o insight.
I respect your redirection, if it is genuine. If it is not, there isn't much I can do about it except scroll past it. I am not suggesting malice on your part--judging perhaps--malice seems strong. Actually, I don't get online malice against anonymous people. It seems silly. But honestly, you could have sent your message as a pm, so you brought it out in the open for a reason, no? IDK maybe my pm box isn't re-activated.
Again, I have no idea about pm-ing or emailing Q. If you meant replied to her comments here w/i this thread, well, that would be different, wouldn't it? So no. I don't understand that comment at all. Honestly. I think Q can verify this and what's in my out/inbox. Seriously I don't think it is an activated feature; especially since I spend very little time here at SDN interacting.
It's like the alert feature. That's been off for a long while too. I figure I look around, come and go, check a previous response or two if it was done, and then log out.Thanks for caring. Besides, I stated my timetable a while ago. Life is like the mist too. I know this well.
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I've never participated in a code that I felt good about later.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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I've had one. Middle aged dude coded on the floor during business hours, witnessed by hospital staff, got immediate CPR. Rhythm was v-fib that responded to shock, rushed immediately to the cath lab and had the blocked vessels promptly stented, was awake and talking to us in the CICU afterward. The kind of serendipity with all the stars perfectly aligned that I doubt I'll ever see again. But man, that was a nice save worthy of TV.
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I am at the point in my career where the odds of ever having a good code are extremely remote. I am glad you got one.
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Working in the OR, we don't get a ton of codes (at least not in the two hospitals where I worked), but I have had two. One was an older gentleman who told us flat out he was going to die before he went under. He was right.
The other was a guy under sedation for a port removal who just crumped out of nowhere. Coded him for about 15 minutes before he spontaneously recovered and was sitting up talking in the PACU. Crazy.
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Medicine is not for everybody. Don't look back, and have fun. Life is too short.
No one with any sense feels "good" re: a code, even if the outcome is life, b/c either you have to wonder about long-term, possible neurological sequelae and/or it was a very stressful experience for the patient, the family, and the staff.
Honestly as many codes as I have seen or been in, I think a person would have to be screwy in the head to feel good about the experiences. I can say that I've felt good when we are doing our best and people work together for the patient, even if the outcome is bad. Some bother you more--like the codes that could have been prevented (my belief as to why a person is in an intensive care setting to begin with), but it can't always go down that way. The codes where people were just horrible to each other and terribly disjointed, you can't feel good about them. And yes, people that probably needed to not be coded anymore, regardless of whether they were kids or adults or elders. But now the pendulum has swung the other way, and people see an elderly person, or even some terribly obnoxious, aggressive drunk that goes into VF, and it's like, sometimes you wonder. Are we really giving the best effort here if we can and should--not based on biases re: age or say abusive drunks or even murders and such? No. I prefer not to play God. But sure. There is a time we all have to seriously think about putting down in writing what their personal position on advanced directives is. For me, it's not a quick thing, b/c whether anyone believes this or not, I have witnessed a woman literally sit up in bed while on a vent and start hand gesturing "I want food," (making utensil to mouth motions). She was considered a neurologically closed case at a high-functioning, university-center/hospital. I actually had to go back out and look at the number on the door and what my notes stated, b/c it was so far off of what I was given in sign-off/report. People laughed at me when I approached the docs and other nurses and even the NM. They literally laughed at me. All I could say was, "Come and see." The looks on their faces were truly priceless. Sure, these kinds of occurrences are rare, but they do happen. In many cases, I always think of this quote from Phenomenon: "I don't know doc. I just might have one more thing to say." So I say, "Let's know we gave it our best." If you can say that, then you can feel good, b/c you have done all that you can do, and it was truly out of your hands. Does this mean an hours long code? No, not necessarily. You have to look at the whole patient and their whole story. Given, in the ED, you might not have that, as we are more likely to have that in the units. But I want to error on the side of life. What is a reasonable time for a code will vary, and that is really my point. Let's not just to, "Hey. She's 70. She had long enough. Let's pack it in after 10-15 minutes." One 70 y.o. person's overall state of health is not another 70 year old's. These things have to be individualized, or we are just playing God. And that is the thing to which I object.
I truly think it's a slippery slope when we are to quick to dismiss efforts toward life, unless there is strong reason to allow a death to proceed.
I have seen some good deaths. Example: My grand mom at home w/ some family members singing, praying, loving on her. Shoot, hospice even had to waste a lot of the narcotics, b/c she really didn't need that much. This wonderful, precious 90+ woman had a very good death surrounded by her loved ones, and I will also say, she was a truly caring, good person that lived a good life. She lived well and died well. She knew she was loved. So, there is a time for this and a time for everything.
I just hold suspect the biases where people begin to give less for those b/c of an age or other things, when it's the individual person that matters most. When a ED resident says to me, "Hey, w/ adults, we just do 4-5 rounds of epi, and call it day." Yes, even after all these years, such a cavalier attitude is troubling to me.
And yes. I can remember speaking out in some codes w/ young docs and nurses that wanted to keep going, but knowing the whole picture w/ the patient, I had to say, "It's probably time to focus on those still in this land of living." I understand that for some, there is a point of diminishing returns, and there is a whole busy, crazy unit of patients that need care. But it was never cavalier. It was not about a general bias. It was about individualized considerations--and respect for that particular individual given his/her situation. It was never about just going through the motions. You can run it too long, and you can run it too short, but in more resent years, I am sorry. I have seen more of a move toward the former over the latter. This is troubling to me.
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Durable power of attorney for health. DNR for me.
caZΩ
I think it's great that you have taken the initiative to have done this.
Also, however, wouldn't there be circumstances where resuscitation may well be worth your while? I mean if your brain still has the power to work or recover, isn't that something?
I think it's great that you have taken the initiative to have done this.
Also, however, wouldn't there be circumstances where resuscitation may well be worth your while? I mean if your brain still has the power to work or recover, isn't that something?
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I'm more comfortable with an unambiguous instruction.
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Not thus far.
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yossarian - what is it that caused you to lose your passion? the long hours / workload / burnout? or seeing the realities of the healthcare system in person?
I am a slightly older applicant who has already worked a few years and is thinking of going into medicine. I've been rejected a couple cycles already and am realizing DO or Carib are my only hope. I feel passionate about helping people and having the skills to really make a difference - my passion lies in preventative primary care and I'd like to link research in nutrition with chronic illness. I won't go into my entire personal statement about what drives me to make this leap.
However there are two camps of people in my life (all who are close to me and mean well). Camp one are the people who view life as basically having financial security and treating a job as work and then the rest of the time as life / family time. They don't care to make millions but believe you should have minimal debt, go into high demand fields, make and save money and focus on family. The other camp are the people who believe you should invest in yourself and drive yourself academically to reach your full abilities to help others. Currently I'm in a great position. I'm young, fully employed, make good money. I'm of the age one should really start having kids / get married and I have a supportive partner but not yet married or with kids. Some things that worry me are the fact that if I do go into medicine it will likely be at least 4 years before we start our family and we will have to live quite below the lifestyle we live now.
So please, I would like to hear your honest opinion. I'm going into this process with hopes of actually making a contribution to people's lives. Is this even realistic in the healthcare climate we live in now? Will I just end up being another cog in the wheel, spitting out the same 3 drugs to my patients, no time to have conversations with them or try any other meaningful treatment approach? not to mention time to do proper unbiased research ? I happen to work in a hospital already and know a bit about how drug trials are done and how stressed doctors are and how rampant nepotism is, not to mention medical error etc. Is it even realistic to think one can "be better" ?
I think the idea of having medical knowledge and skill is inspiring but I think I might hate myself more if I come out the other end and realize the whole system is a sinking ship and all my good intentions are going to waste.
I am a slightly older applicant who has already worked a few years and is thinking of going into medicine. I've been rejected a couple cycles already and am realizing DO or Carib are my only hope. I feel passionate about helping people and having the skills to really make a difference - my passion lies in preventative primary care and I'd like to link research in nutrition with chronic illness. I won't go into my entire personal statement about what drives me to make this leap.
However there are two camps of people in my life (all who are close to me and mean well). Camp one are the people who view life as basically having financial security and treating a job as work and then the rest of the time as life / family time. They don't care to make millions but believe you should have minimal debt, go into high demand fields, make and save money and focus on family. The other camp are the people who believe you should invest in yourself and drive yourself academically to reach your full abilities to help others. Currently I'm in a great position. I'm young, fully employed, make good money. I'm of the age one should really start having kids / get married and I have a supportive partner but not yet married or with kids. Some things that worry me are the fact that if I do go into medicine it will likely be at least 4 years before we start our family and we will have to live quite below the lifestyle we live now.
So please, I would like to hear your honest opinion. I'm going into this process with hopes of actually making a contribution to people's lives. Is this even realistic in the healthcare climate we live in now? Will I just end up being another cog in the wheel, spitting out the same 3 drugs to my patients, no time to have conversations with them or try any other meaningful treatment approach? not to mention time to do proper unbiased research ? I happen to work in a hospital already and know a bit about how drug trials are done and how stressed doctors are and how rampant nepotism is, not to mention medical error etc. Is it even realistic to think one can "be better" ?
I think the idea of having medical knowledge and skill is inspiring but I think I might hate myself more if I come out the other end and realize the whole system is a sinking ship and all my good intentions are going to waste.
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Once you have felt enough 80 & 90 year old's ribs break under your assault, it becomes a lot easier to say something like "life is over at 65 anyway."
That doesn't mean that resident isn't going to give their all when they actually face a patient in distress. But sometimes saying the dark, "cold-hearted" thing is what gives you the extra stamina to keep going. I've certainly fought to save a lot of people who, were I in their position, I would desperately wish to be allowed to finish dying in peace. Saying that acknowledges that sometimes, we have to do some awful things in the hopes of helping someone... not that we aren't going to do those things, if duty requires it.
I don't have to love abusing corpses. I just have to do it, if my patient hasn't made it clear that they don't want that done to them.
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also curious about the earlier parts of this thread. I get that medical school is hard, you're learning medical knowledge after all! What I'm trying to understand is how people say it is these insane amounts of studying. I guess it would help me to get a breakdown of exactly how much work it is.
e.g. how many hours a week are you doing lecture? Is this multiple different topics? for instance mon - clinical skills of chest ax tues - thoracic anatomy weds - microbiology thurs - all the pharmacology of the cardiovascular system. is there so much material that you basically just have one day for each topic.
are we saying you go home at night and have to read 8 lecture notes from the day and read 8 entire chapters?
are you basically expected to memorize / know everything instantly the next day? would there be a pop quiz the next day.
I'm just wondering if it is possible to get by having a normal day of 8-10 hours of work whether you attend class or not. I mean most of us as premeds took anatomy already and understand immunology etc. I honestly plan on having 6 am wake ups and be done with school work 6pm, unless it's an exam week.
just curious if someone who is a student could for instance tell me how much they had to do today/tonight?
e.g. how many hours a week are you doing lecture? Is this multiple different topics? for instance mon - clinical skills of chest ax tues - thoracic anatomy weds - microbiology thurs - all the pharmacology of the cardiovascular system. is there so much material that you basically just have one day for each topic.
are we saying you go home at night and have to read 8 lecture notes from the day and read 8 entire chapters?
are you basically expected to memorize / know everything instantly the next day? would there be a pop quiz the next day.
I'm just wondering if it is possible to get by having a normal day of 8-10 hours of work whether you attend class or not. I mean most of us as premeds took anatomy already and understand immunology etc. I honestly plan on having 6 am wake ups and be done with school work 6pm, unless it's an exam week.
just curious if someone who is a student could for instance tell me how much they had to do today/tonight?
Yea. Been a part of codes for more years than I want to share--adults and then kids. It's BS to say life is over at 65, unless there is a good damn reason life is over--like you are at the end of the road with, say for example, acute myelogenous leukemia. In general, it's a young number in this country. People still have a lot of living to do, and short of something end stage or the like, it's an idiotic position to take. Again, lots of codes and seen a lot of death.
And again, "Every day above ground is a good day." I don't necessarily disagree with Oliver Stone on that.
Know what else is interesting? People change their positions on a number of things as they get older or go through stuff--that is, if they are open to do so.
Point is that everyone is an individual regardless of age. Everyone needs to be given the same respect and effort for resuscitation, unless they have "willed" that such be bypassed; but they should check the specifics on that regularly, for their position may change. The life you are given here is short enough, as well as pretty final when it's done, so, yea. I stand in favor of life unless there are some excellent reasons to let it go.
jl lin. u need medical school and residency before you get it. this **** is heavy, medicine sucks, and bad things happen. long hours and you get a burnt md. its venting. ive done it, almost all ny collegues have days like this horrible resident. when the rubber hits the road, we do whats best for our patients and their familes.
i has a 85 yo m come in via ems, lost vitals in the rig and family was waiting upon arrival. had family come back and patient was dnr/dni. hooked up to then monitor and had vfib.... made sure thats what the patient wanted. didnt even give the family an option of a shock to see if itd work... thats not what he wanted. that was hard.
medicine is grey and as a doctor i make lots of very difficult decisions daily. when youre working 6 days a week 80 hours a week and sometimes 30 hours straight... gotta vent.
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i has a 85 yo m come in via ems, lost vitals in the rig and family was waiting upon arrival. had family come back and patient was dnr/dni. hooked up to then monitor and had vfib.... made sure thats what the patient wanted. didnt even give the family an option of a shock to see if itd work... thats not what he wanted. that was hard.
medicine is grey and as a doctor i make lots of very difficult decisions daily. when youre working 6 days a week 80 hours a week and sometimes 30 hours straight... gotta vent.
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For this ORIGINAL thread I say:
I'm a proud naysayer. None of you have any clue how much more difficult it gets. Whatever you want to think, there's no "light at the end of the tunnel" It's a f***ing long ass tunnel. Don't just think, "after Step blah blah it gets better" or "once I'm a resident and can affect patient care directly it's better". NOPE, although it's true in that your influence on patient care becomes more direct, it doesn't get better. It gets worse. The sacrifices, if you find them tough as a medical student get grossly exaggerated as a resident.
And I remember a post about rote memorization w/ no application? Wow, good luck w/ that. Knowledge is your enemy and your friend. Wait till you get to clinical medicine. It's ALL application. Very difficult application. Because no patient is text book. You have to add comorbidities, and other non-tangible lifestyle variation every time, including: "Can the patient afford medication?" "Does the patient's insurance want the 'gold standard'?" More importantly: "Does the hospital allow for the 'gold standard'?" Because sadly we treat empirically so many times. Medicine is probably the most obvious field where nothing happens in a benign vacuum. I wish all patients were standardized. But, it makes it less boring that they aren't. However that adds a big wrinkle of difficulty.
As for this tangent, honestly, I don't see the point in discussing codes to someone who doesn't have keen awareness of the facts. And I'm statistically "successful" at codes. This past year I'm 4/6, success being ROSC. Lifetime, including medical school I'm 5/8. But those are my statistics, and don't include how f***ed up the people I successfully bring back are, or the fact that out of the 5, basically only 2 of them made it out of the hospital. The rest eventually died.
Regardless, patients do not go into cardiac arrest for fun. Be it insidious or acute, the heart stops, one deoxygenates and begins to die. And usually about 4 minutes in, the good parts of you, particularly your brain is really damaged. What is important to UNDERSTAND (and helped me immensely as a resident) is that basically anything we do w/ the dying person during CPR is worth it because w/o intervention the person is dead. But at what end point?
Age shouldn't matter one would think. How does arrest in a 6 year old any different than say: resuscitating said 6 year old but then he/she dies in a car accident on the way home from the hospital? Loss of life is tragic to any individual at any age for the people around them who live in the wake of their death. But there's a lot to be said about opposite of this code discussion. Watching people who are DNR die despite the burden of knowledge knowing I believe intervening could potentially keep them going...a few more days, weeks, years is the whole other side of the coin. Because for some of these people, a lung infection may improve if we just put them on a vent and gave them a boost of some pressors while their body and our antibiotics fight the infection. (Ventilator and pressors absolutely being interventions) But they chose not to, prior to becoming septic and going into hypovolemic shock. The intervention MAY be worth the risk for the reward! However, what would be their QUALITY OF LIFE when it was all said and done??? For that patient, that quality of life regardless of the debatable endpoint would not be worth living to them as an individual.
Fact is a code is one of the most statistically INSIGNIFICANT interventions. If you go back to my math, it goes w/ what I believe is reported in the literature. "Successful" resuscitation rates hover in the 20%. I always use quotes because of what your point goes to, and the point those of us who run codes and do them want to make. Success is debatable, regardless if I destroy grandma Gertrude's 85 year old chest in hopes she is 1 out of the 5 who makes it to whatever higher age w/ the repercussions AND recuperation from an obliterated ribcage might not be worth while...from a QUALITY OF LIFE standpoint! I HATE crushing ribcages on people who will not obtain a better or even similar quality of life in my "success" of resuscitating him/her.
The end point isn't living. It's the QUALITY OF LIFE. As a doctor, regardless of your capacity (surgeon, primary care, pediatrician, hell psychiatrist) it should be the WHOLE F***ING point about why you do this. It's not a success/failure rate! It's not about CURING vs NOT CURING! Or SAVING vs. NOT SAVING! It's how you affect every patient's quality of life. So I apologize if I'm more cynical about doing codes on people >65 yo in general. It does s*** to improve their quality of life, albeit maybe the 20% who don't die and I am able to extend their life at a much poorer quality than originally.
/drop mike
I'm a proud naysayer. None of you have any clue how much more difficult it gets. Whatever you want to think, there's no "light at the end of the tunnel" It's a f***ing long ass tunnel. Don't just think, "after Step blah blah it gets better" or "once I'm a resident and can affect patient care directly it's better". NOPE, although it's true in that your influence on patient care becomes more direct, it doesn't get better. It gets worse. The sacrifices, if you find them tough as a medical student get grossly exaggerated as a resident.
And I remember a post about rote memorization w/ no application? Wow, good luck w/ that. Knowledge is your enemy and your friend. Wait till you get to clinical medicine. It's ALL application. Very difficult application. Because no patient is text book. You have to add comorbidities, and other non-tangible lifestyle variation every time, including: "Can the patient afford medication?" "Does the patient's insurance want the 'gold standard'?" More importantly: "Does the hospital allow for the 'gold standard'?" Because sadly we treat empirically so many times. Medicine is probably the most obvious field where nothing happens in a benign vacuum. I wish all patients were standardized. But, it makes it less boring that they aren't. However that adds a big wrinkle of difficulty.
As for this tangent, honestly, I don't see the point in discussing codes to someone who doesn't have keen awareness of the facts. And I'm statistically "successful" at codes. This past year I'm 4/6, success being ROSC. Lifetime, including medical school I'm 5/8. But those are my statistics, and don't include how f***ed up the people I successfully bring back are, or the fact that out of the 5, basically only 2 of them made it out of the hospital. The rest eventually died.
Regardless, patients do not go into cardiac arrest for fun. Be it insidious or acute, the heart stops, one deoxygenates and begins to die. And usually about 4 minutes in, the good parts of you, particularly your brain is really damaged. What is important to UNDERSTAND (and helped me immensely as a resident) is that basically anything we do w/ the dying person during CPR is worth it because w/o intervention the person is dead. But at what end point?
Age shouldn't matter one would think. How does arrest in a 6 year old any different than say: resuscitating said 6 year old but then he/she dies in a car accident on the way home from the hospital? Loss of life is tragic to any individual at any age for the people around them who live in the wake of their death. But there's a lot to be said about opposite of this code discussion. Watching people who are DNR die despite the burden of knowledge knowing I believe intervening could potentially keep them going...a few more days, weeks, years is the whole other side of the coin. Because for some of these people, a lung infection may improve if we just put them on a vent and gave them a boost of some pressors while their body and our antibiotics fight the infection. (Ventilator and pressors absolutely being interventions) But they chose not to, prior to becoming septic and going into hypovolemic shock. The intervention MAY be worth the risk for the reward! However, what would be their QUALITY OF LIFE when it was all said and done??? For that patient, that quality of life regardless of the debatable endpoint would not be worth living to them as an individual.
Fact is a code is one of the most statistically INSIGNIFICANT interventions. If you go back to my math, it goes w/ what I believe is reported in the literature. "Successful" resuscitation rates hover in the 20%. I always use quotes because of what your point goes to, and the point those of us who run codes and do them want to make. Success is debatable, regardless if I destroy grandma Gertrude's 85 year old chest in hopes she is 1 out of the 5 who makes it to whatever higher age w/ the repercussions AND recuperation from an obliterated ribcage might not be worth while...from a QUALITY OF LIFE standpoint! I HATE crushing ribcages on people who will not obtain a better or even similar quality of life in my "success" of resuscitating him/her.
The end point isn't living. It's the QUALITY OF LIFE. As a doctor, regardless of your capacity (surgeon, primary care, pediatrician, hell psychiatrist) it should be the WHOLE F***ING point about why you do this. It's not a success/failure rate! It's not about CURING vs NOT CURING! Or SAVING vs. NOT SAVING! It's how you affect every patient's quality of life. So I apologize if I'm more cynical about doing codes on people >65 yo in general. It does s*** to improve their quality of life, albeit maybe the 20% who don't die and I am able to extend their life at a much poorer quality than originally.
/drop mike
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It's honestly not that difficult to "pass" medical school. But you don't want to "just pass" (especially when it comes to board scores) or you risk not being competitive for your specialty of choice. We actually did have around 5% of our class fail out altogether. It's extremely difficult to excel in, and you still have to put in a lot of work to be average. For us, it was a constant barrage of quizzes for the first 2 years. We had up to 6 per week while anatomy was concurrent with basic sciences, with one of those consisting of being pimped by anatomy staff over your cadaver ("show me the flexor carpi radialis longus" or "locate the foremen ovale"). These would culminate in an exam every 4-6 weeks. All the obscure, useless facts are presented to you, so the difficult becomes picking out the important, testable material most likely to affect your grade. You get pretty good at this somewhere in first year or you start to drown. I would say total time dedicated to medical school for the first 2 years during a non exam week for me was anywhere from 30-50 hours per week, ramping up to 70-80 during exam weeks. Others in my class far exceeded this. Step 1 studying was the worst for me, pretty consistent 12-14 hour days for about a month. I can only describe it as a grind, because sooner or later most of it just becomes tedious.
Third year is what we all look forward to, because everyone thinks "finally now I'll be evaluated in a real world environment by real people instead of a scantron machine!" But surprise! Shelf exams will end up making or breaking you if you are going for an A/honors. Only now, instead of being able to study for it, you're stuck in clinic until 6pm waiting to see the fifth "low back pain" of the day. Or you're scrubbed in on an onc case until 9pm holding a retractor while everyone with any initials after their name ignores you. With rounds at 5:30am the next morning.
If I sound bitter, I'm truly not. But there is no glamour in this career, and the warm fuzzy moments are few and far between. Think hard about it before making the leap, med school is full of people sadly disappointed by the reality of a career in medicine.
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We have between 4-8 hours of class a day. Some classes give us textbook pre-reading, but most don't. Some classes have quizzes on material we haven't covered in class, so we have to do the pre-reading/studying. Say I have class 8-5 (1 hour lunch break), I'll go to the gym from 5-6, get home at 6:30, have supper, then study until 8pm during non-exams, 9 pm during exams. On weekends, I'll do 2-3 hours/day during non-exam times, and at least half the day during exams. During exams I study in the morning during breakfast. On days that I finish early, I often do errands/appointments/etc that are hard to do during the weekend or at night.
I ended up doing really well at a highly ranked school, with little background in any of my classes. (Nothing beyond the minimum pre-reqs for the MCAT.) I suspect that many of my classmates with backgrounds in those classes did less work but this worked for me, and I didn't really feel overwhelmed once I set up cut-off end times. One thing that really helps is that I like the material!
For perspective, I am in a relationship with someone in a professional job, and my spouse puts in the same amount of time working, as I do studying. Finishing at 6pm is not realistic in any career job if you are ambitious. When I used to work in my old career, I worked until 6 or 7 in the office and a bit at home at night. Hope this helps!
I know full well, as a critical RN for decades, I get what you are saying. It doesn't change my position. Take the whole picture. If you have to, take age out of the equation, so that you are not shortchanging someone merely b/c of age. It's happening. It's wrong.
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I concur. I'm proud of the OP for recognizing what makes him happy/unhappy and having the courage to walk away. Too many med students suffer in silence or try to convince themselves that it will get better at the next stage of their training, only to find out that things don't get better but they're in too deep to get out. Life is too short to be miserable.
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