LOANS!!! This is crazy!

[Mad Jack]

With all that said.... I live and trained in NYC and I lived in nice apartments in midtown and I spent serious cash on my relaxation fund when opportunities to party arose. I still came out with 200K in loans and thats it (closer to $225 when interest was added in).

There are perhaps some questions as to why a school in maine and the desert of the southwest are 50% more expensive than NYC, land of the absurd rent and $14 drink.

Just tuition, loan origination fees, and standard fees alone would run a UNECOM student $217,740. And that's without factoring the fact that loans aren't subsidized anymore- you're accumulating interest from day 1, so those loans, without living expenses, will probably total closer to 250k at graduation. Probably has something to do with the fact that UNECOM is a much smaller school than NYCOM (I'm guessing that's where you attended, though living in midtown seems like a hell of a commute). The DO school is expensive, and until this year only had a class of 75 students. Paying for professors, buildings, clinical site development, and the like with only 75 students paying in required a pretty hefty expenditure per student.

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[razor]

The only one-time expense I see there is $2,000 loan fee (never even heard of this before. WTF is this? is this manditory?), and $775 boring fees. You should not be paying for health insurance. Thats ridiculous. Get medicaid. Just saved you 3.2K. Dont get a $1,500 mac. Get a $200 PC, been using the same $200 laptop for 6 years I got for med school. Saved you $1,300. And Im sure they heavily overestimated everything else.

I chose to NOT live off government assistance. There are plenty of hard-working tax-payers that don't need to be supporting me through school.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Just tuition, loan origination fees, and standard fees alone would run a UNECOM student $217,740. And that's without factoring the fact that loans aren't subsidized anymore- you're accumulating interest from day 1, so those loans, without living expenses, will probably total closer to 250k at graduation. Probably has something to do with the fact that UNECOM is a much smaller school than NYCOM (I'm guessing that's where you attended, though living in midtown seems like a hell of a commute). The DO school is expensive, and until this year only had a class of 75 students. Paying for professors, buildings, clinical site development, and the like with only 75 students paying in required a pretty hefty expenditure per student.

I think he went to Touro.

 

[DocEspana]

I think he went to Touro.

Yup.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Hey Guys,

So I started my Grad PLUS loan application last night and it requires you to go through entrance counseling. During this counseling, you can enter in your total expected debt (~250k) and potential income to kinda see what your monthly payments would look like as well as some other things. I started out plugging in 150k annual income and the program basically said (on a 10yr plan) the monthly payments would be ~3k with income of about 8.5K. Annually, the total income going towards loans was ~50k!!!! For 10 years!!!!!!
The program also classified the debt as high, med, or low based on income level and percent of income going towards loan. This basically said you have to make ~300K to be in the "mid" bracket and ~500k to be in the "low" bracket!!!

I thought I understood the debt I was incurring but I didn't grasp the full depth till now.

Please understand that this doesn't change my interest in pursuing medicine because there is nothing else I would rather do in the world; it does however, move me very far from primary care....

I can now see why there is a shortage of primary care physicians...

Welcome to medicine.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yup.

Ah. Touro has a much greater resource pool than UNECOM. With a significantly larger student base and two other schools to draw funds from, they have far more to work with financially and a lot mire flexibility.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Apparently people should have $2k in books, $4k in transport, and $3.2k in health insurance.

I put 1500 toward books and spent about 300. Talk to former class mates if you can. Big robbins is a must (in my personal opinon, others disagree), your choice of anatomy books, Castanzo, First aide......and thats about it for me. I used some of my old physio books too like Boron And Boulpap

 

[budda10000]

Thanks for this. It actually made me feel way better about my situation. Both my fiancé and I are starting med school at the end of this month. I've been a little anxious about the financial aspect, but this looks incredibly doable.

Think of it as a business investment. There are very few ways to make a stead 200k/yr income without borrowing money. Either your going to do it for education or business expenses. Look at it this way, at least your not a dentist(400k in debt+400k practice costs).

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Think of it as a business investment. There are very few ways to make a stead 200k/yr income without borrowing money. Either your going to do it for education or business expenses. Look at it this way, at least your not a dentist(400k in debt+400k practice costs).

Or a veterinarian... I read a NYT article recently that quoted average vet income just north of 60k ... and debts well above 300k.

 

[darklabel]

Or a veterinarian... I read a NYT article recently that quoted average vet income just north of 60k ... and debts well above 300k.

And yet it's quite competitive to get in!


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[user3]

@DocEspana

2 things you do not seem to take into account:

tuition hikes (averaged 2.8% from 2012-2013 to 2013-2014)
interest (6.21% for unsubsidized, 7.21% for grad plus and projected to increase)

average tuition & fees for private DO schools was $44k for 2013-2014. Doing the math, these two factors will be pushing student debt incredibly high in coming years.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

@DocEspana

2 things you do not seem to take into account:

tuition hikes (averaged 2.8% from 2012-2013 to 2013-2014)
interest (6.21% for unsubsidized, 7.21% for grad plus and projected to increase)

average tuition & fees for private DO schools was $44k for 2013-2014. Doing the math, these two factors will be pushing student debt incredibly high in coming years.

The average tuition at my school will probably be $46k for 4 years. That's $184k right off the bat.

$24k/year for living expenses which is 96k. $280k not taking into account the interest accruing from day one.

How are people ending with less than $250? Are their living expenses covered from other sources?

 

[koan]

The debt averages have always been skewed by people with scholarships (e.g. full / partial ride, HPSP, NHSC, MSTP) and people whose family subsidizes their education to some extent, by living at home or paying their tuition / living expenses.

Even if you're very frugal your debt total will be at best $60k less than the person taking max COA. To me it wasn't worth flogging myself for 4 years only eating ramen and never doing fun stuff just to say my debt load was under $300k. There's a difference between living within your means and the obsessive asceticism some people advise, and that difference = unhappiness in my book.

 

[hallowmann]

The average tuition at my school will probably be $46k for 4 years. That's $184k right off the bat.

$24k/year for living expenses which is 96k. $280k not taking into account the interest accruing from day one.

How are people ending with less than $250? Are their living expenses covered from other sources?

Like Koan said, its an average of all people who take out any loans for med school. I came in to med school with a bit of money left over from my previous work. My wife also works random contracts, so we have enough to cover cost of living, which has been ~$13k here. That reduces my final loan amount.

I have a friend who took out ~$46k last year (tuition, fees, and living), but applied for NHSC for the next few years. If that goes through, he'll come out with significantly less loans. I have another friend who lives at home, etc.

 

[Silent Cool]

The average tuition at my school will probably be $46k for 4 years. That's $184k right off the bat.

$24k/year for living expenses which is 96k. $280k not taking into account the interest accruing from day one.

How are people ending with less than $250? Are their living expenses covered from other sources?

They have rich families who pay for $hit.

It's not rocket science, people. Look at the COA. Assume you borrow that, because in my experience most people will.

Factor in interest accumulation every year and also through a 3-year residency.

So if you have a modest 25K from undergrad, and you borrow 80K per year, you will owe 500K at the end of a three-year residency.

I would go to LECOM if you can.

Georgetown COA:
https://georgetown.app.box.com/s/hbdpvin1ewimsvze14s5

Georgetown SMP:
http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/SMP/

Add in 25K of undergrad debt, 3-year residency, that's a cool 700K of debt.

Have fun.

 

[Setto]

They have rich families who pay for $hit.

It's not rocket science, people. Look at the COA. Assume you borrow that, because in my experience most people will.

Factor in interest accumulation every year and also through a 3-year residency.

So if you have a modest 25K from undergrad, and you borrow 80K per year, you will owe 500K at the end of a three-year residency.

I would go to LECOM if you can.

Georgetown COA:
https://georgetown.app.box.com/s/hbdpvin1ewimsvze14s5

Georgetown SMP:
http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/SMP/

Add in 25K of undergrad debt, 3-year residency, that's a cool 700K of debt.

Have fun.

This is roughly the number that I came to with my accountant. The school I was going to attend planned on increasing tuition by 5% per year. 5!

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Like Koan said, its an average of all people who take out any loans for med school. I came in to med school with a bit of money left over from my previous work. My wife also works random contracts, so we have enough to cover cost of living, which has been ~$13k here. That reduces my final loan amount.

I have a friend who took out ~$46k last year (tuition, fees, and living), but applied for NHSC for the next few years. If that goes through, he'll come out with significantly less loans. I have another friend who lives at home, etc.

So you're going to a really cheap school and you have living expenses covered.

Basically you will end up with $120k or something?

FML.


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[cabinbuilder]

How are people ending with less than $250? Are their living expenses covered from other sources?

You go to LECOM. They have the cheapest tuition in the county and Erie is super cheap to live in.

 

[sazerac]

The average tuition at my school will probably be $46k for 4 years. That's $184k right off the bat.

$24k/year for living expenses which is 96k. $280k not taking into account the interest accruing from day one.

How are people ending with less than $250? Are their living expenses covered from other sources?

It would be far more informative if schools reported the median debt, not mean debt. If "most folks" are taking out the full COA, then the median debt would be... the COA, and far more reflective of expectations.

 

[Silent Cool]

This is roughly the number that I came to with my accountant. The school I was going to attend planned on increasing tuition by 5% per year. 5!

Out of curiosity, what did your accountant say about it? Did he discourage you? Supportive? Etc...

 

[Silent Cool]

I'm going to make a statement.

F!$% academia, higher education, and the government.

That is all.

 

[sudo]

I'm going to make a statement.

F!$% academia, higher education, and the government.

That is all.

...lol

 

[hallowmann]

So you're going to a really cheap school and you have living expenses covered.

Basically you will end up with $120k or something?

FML.

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Tuition with fees at LECOM comes out to ~$35k (the mandatory health and disability insurance mostly). So for just tuition its $140k plus interest, fees, etc.

If it makes you feel better, my brother finished with ~$250k about 15 yrs ago, and he's been just fine. He's still paying it off, but almost there, and has been living pretty comfortably, at least after residency.

 

[Setto]

Out of curiosity, what did your accountant say about it? Did he discourage you? Supportive? Etc...

My accountant advised against it based on the numbers. I am Canadian and at the time would have paid in Canadian currency (the dollar was dropping like crazy) at the end of 4 years I would have accrued $455,000 in debt. That doesn't include the extra exams required to apply to and come back to Canada for residency if I decided to do so.

Also, my wife couldn't get a work visa in California (even under NAFTA). She's a scientist and I didn't really want to force her into the house-wife role. At the end of the day I decided that being in my late 20s and moving internationally to attend a school that would cost way too much...it felt like I was just forcing it. I've wanted to be a doctor and involved in primary care for the past 8 years. But I've never wanted to be the guy that was obsessed with bills and money. I find that I can contribute to primary care in a variety of ways with my education while spending quality time with my family, so I'm going that route.

 

[user3]

They have rich families who pay for $hit.

It's not rocket science, people. Look at the COA. Assume you borrow that, because in my experience most people will.

Factor in interest accumulation every year and also through a 3-year residency.

So if you have a modest 25K from undergrad, and you borrow 80K per year, you will owe 500K at the end of a three-year residency.

I would go to LECOM if you can.

Georgetown COA:
https://georgetown.app.box.com/s/hbdpvin1ewimsvze14s5

Georgetown SMP:
http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/SMP/

Add in 25K of undergrad debt, 3-year residency, that's a cool 700K of debt.

Have fun.

if PAYE actually works out and the debt is cleared (though with a huge tax bill, currently) after 20 years, it could be a better deal for a lot of us, rather than just paying down all the debt earlier on.

That being said, having such a huge loan balance hovering over you for so many years would make me uneasy. But I would feel like a sucker if I paid it off early only to find out later that I could have come out ahead completing PAYE program.

 

[koan]

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLo...epaymentEstimator.action#view-repayment-plans

This repayment calculator is fun to play with. I'm entering a total debt of $350k at 6.5% weighted-average interest and the threshold for getting any loan forgiveness at 20 years is having an adjusted gross income (AGI) less than $225k. If you make more than that you pay it off sooner anyway because 10% of your monthly discretionary income > the standard 10-year repayment plan amount.

 

[Silent Cool]

My accountant advised against it based on the numbers. I am Canadian and at the time would have paid in Canadian currency (the dollar was dropping like crazy) at the end of 4 years I would have accrued $455,000 in debt. That doesn't include the extra exams required to apply to and come back to Canada for residency if I decided to do so.

Also, my wife couldn't get a work visa in California (even under NAFTA). She's a scientist and I didn't really want to force her into the house-wife role. At the end of the day I decided that being in my late 20s and moving internationally to attend a school that would cost way too much...it felt like I was just forcing it. I've wanted to be a doctor and involved in primary care for the past 8 years. But I've never wanted to be the guy that was obsessed with bills and money. I find that I can contribute to primary care in a variety of ways with my education while spending quality time with my family, so I'm going that route.

Gotcha, so you're going to bail on the med school route?
What are you going to do instead? What is your current role in primary care?

 

[sazerac]

https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLo...epaymentEstimator.action#view-repayment-plans

This repayment calculator is fun to play with. I'm entering a total debt of $350k at 6.5% weighted-average interest and the threshold for getting any loan forgiveness at 20 years is having an adjusted gross income (AGI) less than $225k. If you make more than that you pay it off sooner anyway because 10% of your monthly discretionary income > the standard 10-year repayment plan amount.

You will want to use the AAMC calculator instead.

https://services.aamc.org/30/first/home/organizer

It is a lot more accurate, taking into account residency as well. The studentloans.gov website is giving you misleading information. For instance, with your data plus a 4 year residency at $50,000 a year, you are looking at a loan balance of $294,000 at the end of 20 years that will get forgiven. In 20 years you would have paid less than $60,000 towards principal.

Enjoy!

 

[Setto]

Gotcha, so you're going to bail on the med school route?
What are you going to do instead? What is your current role in primary care?

Yeah I'm bailing on medical school.

I am still very involved in neurophysiology research and I'm finishing up my engineering degree. I plan on switching my research over to the heart valve lab at my school.

Sorry, I wrote "primary care" I meant health care. I find that I can help the field through the bio-tech side of things.