locums

[jok200]

what is the typical pay for locum work? Also how does locum actually work? From what i have seen where i am you sign a contract and work a set schedule for anywhere 500-1000 and hour.

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[brats800]

paging Dr. CabinBuilder....

 

[cabinbuilder]

what is the typical pay for locum work? Also how does locum actually work? From what i have seen where i am you sign a contract and work a set schedule for anywhere 500-1000 and hour.

1. You sign up with a placement agency, Delta, MartinFletcher, Goldfish, Locumtenens.com, Comphealth, OnyxMD. etc. Usually 2-3 to get a good variety, any more than that you will be hounded all the time. Plus the paperwork is about 20 pages per agency to start.
2. Then an agent is assigned to you on their end and you tell them what type of jobs you are looking for: Hospitalist, urban, rural full scope, ER, OP only, urgent care, or any combo. What types of procedures you do, OB -noOB, etc.
3. You generally need to be be board certified or at least board eligible for a site to consider you
4. You have to have a clean record
5. You need a valid license in the state the job is in unless you are willing to go to a military base or Indian reservation
6. Pay rate is usually $80/hr guaranteed for 8 hours. So if you show up and you only work 6 hrs you still get paid for 8. Holiday pay is generally $125/hr, and on call rates vary depending on the responsibility which is site dependent. Nobody get $500/hr, whoever told you that is lying. Pay on military/veterans hospital is lower.
7. The travel, housing, rental car, malpractice is covered by the agency. Health insurance you need to get yourself. If you are healthy then a catastrophic policy is very cheap.
8. You are in control of the assignements and its up to you to accept or reject the offer
9. You will need at a minimum BLS, ACLS current. If you plant to do ER many require ATLS and PALS.
10. Your paycheck is pure cash, it's up to you to withhold taxes. I use my cash up front then work extra at the end of the year to pay IRS, then I have plenty of play.

That pretty much covers it. You let them know availability and they find the job for you.

 

[equinsu ocha]

Sounds perfect, what's the catch?

 

[AlmostJesus]

you ever do any locum work on any reservations cabinbuilder? Whats your experience if you did?

 

[MedMan25]

Is $80/hr about what most locums agencies pay? Doesn't that work out to ~ $156k? I was under the impression locums work was more on the higher end of the FM pay scale with all the traveling you do and what not.

 

[deleted87716]

Is $80/hr about what most locums agencies pay? Doesn't that work out to ~ $156k?

Probably less, since that's assuming that one works full-time, and most locums folks don't work all the time. Of course, if you worked more, you'd make more.

Full-time (assuming 4 wks vacation) works out to:
$80/hour x 40 hours/wk x 48 wks/year = $153,600.

 

[MedMan25]

Probably less, since that's assuming that one works full-time, and most locums folks don't work all the time. Of course, if you worked more, you'd make more.

Full-time (assuming 4 wks vacation) works out to:
$80/hour x 40 hours/wk x 48 wks/year = $153,600.

So why would someone do locums? Maybe I'm overestimating what FM docs are making but I thought the average was around $160-170k these days. Is it just because of the freedom of not being tied down to one job at one location? Seems like a cool gig if you're single but otherwise I'm not seeing why you would take a pay cut for a job that requires you to travel all the time. Or maybe family docs make less than what I thought and $80/hr is actually a sweet deal. Someone enlighten me here.

 

[MJB]

Considering a lot of moonlighting gigs pay in the 100/hr range, I'm not getting it either. Especially since there are no benefits.

 

[equinsu ocha]

Not tied down anywhere, get to travel around, show up do your job and leave. Assuming you can find work whenever you want these would be considered benefits to certain people. Unless I am missing something.

 

[MedMan25]

Not tied down anywhere, get to travel around, show up do your job and leave. Assuming you can find work whenever you want these would be considered benefits to certain people. Unless I am missing something.

There are several FM jobs outside of locums that allow you to show up, do your job, and leave. In my opinion, the travel thing would only be cool if you were single or retired. Otherwise I think it would just be stressful to be away from your family all the time. Considering that a lot of doctors have a family by the time they reach attending status it seems strange that locums jobs offer below average pay..

 

[cabinbuilder]

Sounds perfect, what's the catch?

Not sure what you mean? I guess the only catch is if you limit yourself to one state license you are going to be hard pressed to stay employed as you may not have back to back gigs for the time frames you want. I have 5 state licenses so I have the flexibility to pick and choose when I want to work.

The other thing is that most sites require a minimum of 8 weeks commitment. Sometimes longer.

 

[cabinbuilder]

you ever do any locum work on any reservations cabinbuilder? Whats your experience if you did?

1. No, my husband requests that I don't
2. I am a white chick from Alaska, not exactly the same cultural background and can potentially be dangerous from incidents I have seen at home. Not in my personal desire to take any risks.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Is $80/hr about what most locums agencies pay? Doesn't that work out to ~ $156k? I was under the impression locums work was more on the higher end of the FM pay scale with all the traveling you do and what not.

Sure if all you do is work clinic then you would make that little. But when I work locums I am in a rural place where I work ER and clinic and take call and am the hospitalist so I get extra pay for wearing many hats. I made @ 210K last year and worked about 8 months.

My thing is I'm going to be at a site, I would rather be super busy and make money around the clock rather that losing income sitting in a hotel waiting for the next clinic day. Like the job I am on right now I get paid hourly for a 24 hr shift because I am doing all three in a rural hospital. That adds up quickly.

I have also recently worked urgent care where the hours were 7am to 10pm. That's double shifts everyday and that racks up cash quickly.

Gotta think out of your usual 8-5 clinic. If that is all you want to do then you are better off just taking a permanent job. For me I like just being somewhere. making tons of money during that time and taking the vacation time I want.

 

[cabinbuilder]

So why would someone do locums? Maybe I'm overestimating what FM docs are making but I thought the average was around $160-170k these days. Is it just because of the freedom of not being tied down to one job at one location? Seems like a cool gig if you're single but otherwise I'm not seeing why you would take a pay cut for a job that requires you to travel all the time. Or maybe family docs make less than what I thought and $80/hr is actually a sweet deal. Someone enlighten me here.

1.$160 is avg, but not in rural medicine. I have never made that little. I currently make >300K
2. I do locums because I haven't found a real job agreeable to where where I wasn't a corporate slave or somebody's bitch without the autonomy I crave.
3. I like having more than 4 weeks of vacation a year
4. I like the travel and I can make a lot of money very quickly
5. I have never taken a pay cut
6. $80/hr is the avg, but you have to factor in holiday pay (a lot of places pay 150/hr on a holiday and they can't get anyone locally to cover). Many places pay more for coverage so their local docs can have a vacation or conference. I don't pay for housing, travel, food, rental car, or malpractice insurance. I pay for my own health insurance.
7. I have 2 kids and a husband and it works for us because when I am home I am totally home and don't have to get up everyday to go to the office. My current job is 2 weeks on/2 weeks off.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Not tied down anywhere, get to travel around, show up do your job and leave. Assuming you can find work whenever you want these would be considered benefits to certain people. Unless I am missing something.

This is exactly why I do it. I don't want a permanent office, I want more than 4 weeks vacation. I have been burned soooo many times on permanent jobs that I'm just not willing to put myself in that position any more. I can work when I want, have vacation when I want. If I go to the site and it's absolutely terrible, I can leave.

 

[cabinbuilder]

There are several FM jobs outside of locums that allow you to show up, do your job, and leave.

On what planet does this occur? Maybe I just have crappy luck?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Gosh, you guys all sound like someone is forcing you to do locums like there are no other options out there. If you don't think it's worth it, then don't do it. For me having a permanent job under a corporate thumb or being tied down to a private practice (like having a newborn child for the next 18 years) isn't worth it. So I travel, make tons of money, am off when I want and am free.

 

[MedMan25]

On what planet does this occur? Maybe I just have crappy luck?

Aren't most urgent care, hospitalist, and ER jobs shift work? I know there are always loose ends to tie up before/after your shift but the impression I got from most docs I've spoken with who work these types of jobs is that generally speaking you show up, do your work, and go home. Correct me if I'm wrong, I've never worked as an urgent care doc, er doc, or hospitalist a day in my life. Just speaking from what others have said.

Gosh, you guys all sound like someone is forcing you to do locums like there are no other options out there. If you don't think it's worth it, then don't do it. For me having a permanent job under a corporate thumb or being tied down to a private practice (like having a newborn child for the next 18 years) isn't worth it. So I travel, make tons of money, am off when I want and am free.

If earning potential doing locums is > $300k/year, I can see why people do it. When you said these jobs only pay $80/hr I thought to myself, why would anyone chose that kind of a lifestyle when the pay is lower than what you can get picking up shifts at your local urgent care? Locums makes more sense to me now.

Personally, I still don't know if I am convinced it would be worth the time spent away from home but that's just my own preference.

 

[MJB]

One thing that has caught my attention is some of these jobs I see advertised asking you to work 2-3 48 hour shifts a month in remote locations.

I could see that as a possibility.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Aren't most urgent care, hospitalist, and ER jobs shift work? I know there are always loose ends to tie up before/after your shift but the impression I got from most docs I've spoken with who work these types of jobs is that generally speaking you show up, do your work, and go home. Correct me if I'm wrong, I've never worked as an urgent care doc, er doc, or hospitalist a day in my life. Just speaking from what others have said.
As I have said before every contract is different. I have passed up on jobs because they weren't worth it. Yes urgent care is shift work, so is hospitalist, and ER. But that does not mean you just clock out at 8pm when the time is up. You still have to finish all your paperwork, etc. The difference is salary you get paid the flat rate no matter how busy/slow it is and you can get caught working mega extra hours with no extra benefit. Now, getting paid by the hour if the **** hits the fan an you have to stay extra, you get paid for your time.

I was thinking more along the line of salary clinic job where you have to stay to get your charting done after patients are done in order to keep up. I had spent anywhere from 2hrs to 5 hrs after and resented that I was on salary and never got home before 9pm


If earning potential doing locums is > $300k/year, I can see why people do it. When you said these jobs only pay $80/hr I thought to myself, why would anyone chose that kind of a lifestyle when the pay is lower than what you can get picking up shifts at your local urgent care? Locums makes more sense to me now. $80/hr is the average pay but depending on the contract you can be getting 8 hours a day and up according to the duties and requirements of that job.

Personally, I still don't know if I am convinced it would be worth the time spent away from home but that's just my own preference.

To each his own. Everytime I am home its like being on vacation becaue I don't have to get up and be anywhere. I can take 1,2,3, or more weeks off at a time depending on my bills and need to take a rest.

 

[cabinbuilder]

One thing that has caught my attention is some of these jobs I see advertised asking you to work 2-3 48 hour shifts a month in remote locations.

I could see that as a possibility.

Yes, and those jobs usually pay around the clock. That's like the job I am on now. I get paid hourly for doing clinic during the day and covering a 3 bed ER for 24 hours/day for the time I am here so that racks up $$ very quickly.

 

[MedMan25]

As I have said before every contract is different. I have passed up on jobs because they weren't worth it. Yes urgent care is shift work, so is hospitalist, and ER. But that does not mean you just clock out at 8pm when the time is up. You still have to finish all your paperwork, etc. The difference is salary you get paid the flat rate no matter how busy/slow it is and you can get caught working mega extra hours with no extra benefit. Now, getting paid by the hour if the **** hits the fan an you have to stay extra, you get paid for your time.

Aren't there ER/urgent care shifts that pay hourly outside of locums? The residency program I'll be headed to in a month has an in-house moonlighting shifts that pay an hourly rate so I had just assumed it wasn't that difficult to find jobs that pay by the hour.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Aren't there ER/urgent care shifts that pay hourly outside of locums? The residency program I'll be headed to in a month has an in-house moonlighting shifts that pay an hourly rate so I had just assumed it wasn't that difficult to find jobs that pay by the hour.

Yes, there are urgent care outside of locums that pay hourly, However, there are FP docs that only do urgent care and many of those can be salary as well. A Lot of times urgent care is a second job for an FP and they get paid hourly for the shifts they work. You do not have to be locums to work urgent care. But for me the locums company finds the jobs for me so I don't have to worry about it or arrange anything. Because I live in Oregon, I can't look at jobs in Texas per se without a lot of hassle. Just like last month I got called to see if I would cover an urgent care for 10 days in Texas to cover some scheduling holes. I was paid by the hour. But, there were docs there who ONLY work there, they are on salary contract.

Most full time jobs are not hourly. FP Clinic, Hospitalist usually are salary and they over time you get flipped into RVU's or the production based pay scale. No two contracts are the same. DO NOT ASSUME that you will walk into a permanent full time job and expect to be paid by the hour.

 

[cjohnso4]

The other thing is that most sites require a minimum of 8 weeks commitment. Sometimes longer.

Just to clarify, are you saying some places will ask you to remain working at that place for 8 weeks straight?
And another clarification. You said you worked 8 months last year. I imagine that 8 months was all away from home? How long of a break can you take without being required to work again (for licensing sake). Could you work, say, 6 months on and 6 months off if you wanted to? Perhaps that's a question for another thread though.
I'm interested in what you do. I'm just trying to figure out if it would work for me and my family.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Just to clarify, are you saying some places will ask you to remain working at that place for 8 weeks straight? Yes, because the credentialling process for every site is very extensive and it's not worth their time if you don't commit to a decent length of commitment. The site has to be able to bill and get paid by that stat'es medicaid, medicare and private insurances
And another clarification. You said you worked 8 months last year. I imagine that 8 months was all away from home?Not all of it was away from home. I have been lucky and was able to get a temp job the next town over from where I live so I went down on Monday morning and came home thurs evening. I was home 5 of those 8 months I worked so not too bad.
How long of a break can you take without being required to work again (for licensing sake). Could you work, say, 6 months on and 6 months off if you wanted to?Yes Perhaps that's a question for another thread though.Licensing doesn't work that way. Once you get your license in a state its up to you to use it. It is good for 2 years whether you work or not is your business. When your two years are up you pay to renew it. And your DEA and if you are in TX, your DPS, In Nevada, your Pharm license

I'm interested in what you do. I'm just trying to figure out if it would work for me and my family.[

 

[cabinbuilder]

Just to clarify, are you saying some places will ask you to remain working at that place for 8 weeks straight?
And another clarification. You said you worked 8 months last year. I imagine that 8 months was all away from home? How long of a break can you take without being required to work again (for licensing sake). Could you work, say, 6 months on and 6 months off if you wanted to? Perhaps that's a question for another thread though.
I'm interested in what you do. I'm just trying to figure out if it would work for me and my family.

You might want to go onto a locums site. Deltalocums.com is easiest. Just do a search of what location you want and you can see how the different sites have different needs. The jobs listed will tell what they are looking for and the time frames. I think that will give you a better idea.

 

[equinsu ocha]

You might want to go onto a locums site. Deltalocums.com is easiest. Just do a search of what location you want and you can see how the different sites have different needs. The jobs listed will tell what they are looking for and the time frames. I think that will give you a better idea.

Thanks for the information CB, I never knew locums existed until coming here. I went to deltalocums.com and searched family med and was surprised. With the exception of one Cali spot, the furthest west was Texas. I guess I expected there to be more "need" in the western U.S. In your experience, are there ever many spots in Az, NM, Utah, Nevada etc.?

 

[Dene]

1. No, my husband requests that I don't
2. I am a white chick from Alaska, not exactly the same cultural background and can potentially be dangerous from incidents I have seen at home. Not in my personal desire to take any risks.

Could you elaborate? What risks/incidents are you talking about?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Thanks for the information CB, I never knew locums existed until coming here. I went to deltalocums.com and searched family med and was surprised. With the exception of one Cali spot, the furthest west was Texas. I guess I expected there to be more "need" in the western U.S. In your experience, are there ever many spots in Az, NM, Utah, Nevada etc.?

You have to realize that there are dozen of locums companies. Not every company has a monopoly on the entire country. So you have to look at many sites to get a variety and see where the jobs are in the location you want.

For instance, Comphealth has the majority of locums jobs in Oregon. That's why I work with 3 different companies to ensure that I always have a job where I am licensed if I need one. I know somewhere I already put up a list of locums agencies I am aware of or have used. There are jobs everywhere, you just have to find the company the represents that area of the country.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Could you elaborate? What risks/incidents are you talking about?

No, not in public forum. If you need to know, then PM me.

 

[cabinbuilder]

So why would someone do locums? Maybe I'm overestimating what FM docs are making but I thought the average was around $160-170k these days. Is it just because of the freedom of not being tied down to one job at one location? Seems like a cool gig if you're single but otherwise I'm not seeing why you would take a pay cut for a job that requires you to travel all the time. Or maybe family docs make less than what I thought and $80/hr is actually a sweet deal. Someone enlighten me here.

I made over 200K last year doing strict locums and worked 7 months total. All depends on the contract and how many hats you wear on the job at hand.

 

[EdibleEgg]

Just like everything else in FM, locums work is extremely varied. My shortest locum assignment was 3 days, longest was six months. My pay ranged from 60$ an hour for outpatient only with no call, to 8000$ for a weekend of full coverage inpt/ED. I loved it, but eventually tired of living out of a suitcase. It was a great thing to do after residency. It gave me a chance to feel out my strengths and weaknesses before settling down.

 

[notinkansas]

I made over 200K last year doing strict locums and worked 7 months total. All depends on the contract and how many hats you wear on the job at hand.

All that you are saying makes locums sound VERY attractive to me. Good money, no commitments. Work (busting *****) for a while, screw around for a while... It wouldn't take long to become debt free, and pile up a nice FU fund....

Seriously. I've been kicking around the idea of coming back to clinical practice. I'd have to retrain. This is looking more attractive all the time!

 

[cabinbuilder]

I hear ya. All depends on the location and the contract. Here I am beginning of August already over the 200K mark. Planning on taking October off and staying home with my kids during the school year as much as possible.

 

[primadonna22274]

Your work-life balance is sounding better and better to me
Trouble is I don't have the kids yet and am getting old...and I kinda want to live in the same state as my husband for a little while at least
My mom is a traveling RN who did really well until the past 4 yr when the recession hit and hospitals started tightening up on locums. IMO she could still find work if she was willing to travel farther (beyond OR/WA, why not AZ? Her parents and 3 grand kids are there, or TX--2 more grandkids). But she always liked the mini-vacation from my dad

I hear ya. All depends on the location and the contract. Here I am beginning of August already over the 200K mark. Planning on taking October off and staying home with my kids during the school year as much as possible.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Your work-life balance is sounding better and better to me
Trouble is I don't have the kids yet and am getting old...and I kinda want to live in the same state as my husband for a little while at least
My mom is a traveling RN who did really well until the past 4 yr when the recession hit and hospitals started tightening up on locums. IMO she could still find work if she was willing to travel farther (beyond OR/WA, why not AZ? Her parents and 3 grand kids are there, or TX--2 more grandkids). But she always liked the mini-vacation from my dad

I hear ya about not wanting to move around much. Probably your best bet if you want to do locums is to settle in Texas. They have the most locums options and/or locums to perm options that I have seen.

 

[marcbarton]

current rates for locums?

 

[cabinbuilder]

current rates for locums?

Depends on the job. I've seen a range from $60/hr (the VA & IHS) to $125/hr (larger ER) and everything inbetween. Depends on the job, the location, how many hours they give your, call/no call, is it FP clinic with covering ER, just FP, hospitalist in a small hospital, urgent care, small hospital +clinic + call + ER, etc. Every contract is different, every job need is different.

 

[MedicineMan99]

I just signed up for my first locums gig which will start this week. As cabinbuilder said, the best way to make money in locums is to take rural assignments. But I'm taking a semi-rural assignment where I drive 45 minutes outside of the major city in which I live to do outpatient family medicine. I'm getting $80/hour but I'm reimbursed 0.56/mile. Also, I get paid for all the time I'm at the clinic. So, if I need to spend an hour extra just to chart, I get paid for that too.

Why do I love locums? I'm more of a physician entrepreneur with my hands in many businesses. It provides a lot of freedom, you get to say exactly what you will and won't do, and you get paid for everything, you are above all office politics, and you get to work and not work whenever you want. In other words, I think it's the best way to practice medicine.

Also, I've never heard of making $100/hour moonlighting but that's probably because I live in a major city with lots of doctors. In fact, in my city you can't even get a "moonlighting" position without being board certified.

 

[msbbc833]

.

 

[cabinbuilder]

But 80 an hour is 160k a year at 2000 hrs. I mean that is average FM salary. You mention your hands are in many businesses, can you elaborate on that? EM docs are known to have side businesses or investments because they only work half the days of the month, but I don't see that applying to FM as much.

If you are working urgent care as FM, it does apply. Also you are assuming that those of us who work locums only work a 40 hour week. You are right, it would be silly to be gone and only make what you would at home on a perm job. I personally don't work a 40 hour week, I generally avg 65 hours a week since I'm away from home anyway.

I just finished a 4 month job in a large ER where I averaged 70 hour a week, sometimes I hit 80. The cash adds up quickly but, yes, you have to put in the hours to do it.

I can always stop when I want, I plan to take October off this year to go to conference and relax a little bit.

 

[MedicineMan99]

But 80 an hour is 160k a year at 2000 hrs. I mean that is average FM salary. You mention your hands are in many businesses, can you elaborate on that? EM docs are known to have side businesses or investments because they only work half the days of the month, but I don't see that applying to FM as much.

Family Doctors can do anything, that's part of their flexibility. Many Family Doctors do Urgent Care only, for instance. Other Family Doctors do full time ER at rural ERs.

I think locums is good for a lot of different types of doctors. But, I would say it's not good for doctors who want the security of a traditional job. If you want to work 40 hours a week and get 4 weeks of vacation per year with a guaranteed paycheck every 2 weeks, you should do a traditional family medicine job. I'm what you would call a "dabbler". I dabble in medicine. I spend most of my time working for myself as a health technology entrepreneur. In fact, I'm just about to launch an online chronic disease management telehealth company with my 2 partners. I also spend a lot of time filming my YouTube webshow.

I do locums because I enjoy a little extra income while I get my businesses off the ground and I enjoy a small amount of traditional clinical work. As a traditionally employed family doctor (even part time), I would never be able to work just a few days a month (or less!) Once my business gets off the ground, I'll probably only do a few locums gigs per year. But, I do volunteer at a free clinic one night a week to keep my skills sharp.

The only thing about locums that I don't like is the taxes. You are paid as an independent contractor, so you pay double the taxes you would if you were an employed physician. But, it is nice to get more cash up front;-)

 

[cabinbuilder]

The only thing about locums that I don't like is the taxes. You are paid as an independent contractor, so you pay double the taxes you would if you were an employed physician. But, it is nice to get more cash up front;-)

This is generally true if you are a single person and are not incorporated. I incorporated last year and my taxes were halved this year!! Maybe I just have a great accountant? I love having the cash up front too.

 

[styphon]

On what planet does this occur? Maybe I just have crappy luck?

Most jobs I applied at allowed you to work, go home - and no at home work. Most jobs had one week phone call - no other responsbilities (if it was a strict outpt clinic). Now if you want to do Outpt+hospitalist FM(old fashioned FM) then of course you may have hospital work afterhours and on weekends.

All of the hospitalist jobs I looked at were shift work - work your 12 hour shift, go home. no work on your days off or when you get home.

Aren't there ER/urgent care shifts that pay hourly outside of locums? The residency program I'll be headed to in a month has an in-house moonlighting shifts that pay an hourly rate so I had just assumed it wasn't that difficult to find jobs that pay by the hour.

Urgent care and ER do hire outside of locums. Most urgent cares use locums as last resort when they can't get local doctors to fill in. Some of these groups require board certification - other want an ER resident as opposed to a FM - the more rural, the looser rules.

Also, I've never heard of making $100/hour moonlighting but that's probably because I live in a major city with lots of doctors. In fact, in my city you can't even get a "moonlighting" position without being board certified.

The urgent care I work at is in a large city, with 5 hospitals within 10 miles - including 2 cath centers, a neurology intervention center, and level 1+burn center - and our urgent cares pay 100$/hr to moonlight.

 

[MedicineMan99]

This is generally true if you are a single person and are not incorporated. I incorporated last year and my taxes were halved this year!! Maybe I just have a great accountant? I love having the cash up front too.

I thought about doing this. Did you from a LLC? So you just fill out the W 9 to pay to your LLC? Then you set up a business checking account? How did you do it?

 

[cabinbuilder]

I thought about doing this. Did you from a LLC? So you just fill out the W 9 to pay to your LLC? Then you set up a business checking account? How did you do it?

Yes, I did an LLC (in Nevada since they have the best rules), yes my check goes into my LLC checking acount. I have a business visa that all my business expenses get charged on so I get airline miles and so my accountant just uses my statements to figure it all out.