Last edited:
Low GPA, what are my options?
- Thread starter PanicMoon
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2007
- Messages
- 3,205
- Reaction score
- 253
That's me.
Ok, so here's the deal. I was in a very similar boat, grade-wise. I had done a few semesters at a Community College, and had decided many, many times to just stop going to class and not withdraw. Many F's from that. Oops. I had no idea I wanted to be a doctor, and didn't really care about college at the time...I was a musician and living it up and thinking I was going to do that forever...
So, when I decided to return to school at 25, I had a cumulative GPA of around 1. Yes, ONE point zero. Maybe less. It was terrible.
The thing which helped me most is that I hadn't taken hardly ANY math or science classes. When you apply to med school, they compute two GPAs: Cumulative (every grade you've ever had), and BCPM (just the grades from Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Math classes).
So when I returned to school I had ~36 credits with a ~1.0 cGPA and a nonexistent BCPM GPA.
You are in the unfortunate position of having a bunch of BCPM F's. This leaves you with a few options which I will lay out below. All option require that you return to school with a badass'd vengeance and absolutely ace all of your classes. After I returned to school, I got exactly 2 B's and a zillion A's before getting into med school. That being said, here are your options:
1. Apply to DO school: The DO application service will allow you replace old, poor grades with newer retakes. The MD application service merely averages them. So, let's say you retake Microbiology, and instead of a D, you get an A. Under the MD application service, this would give you 2.5 (the average of your 1-point D and your 4-point A) towards your BCPM and cGPA. On the DO application service, you'd get a 4.0 because the D is replaced by the A. At least it was when I applied 5 years ago, but I don't think that's changed. This is a huge reason that DO schools tend to be more friendly to non-traditional students...those of us who screwed up in our younger years for whatever reason.
2. Move and Wait: This option sucks, but might be the most reliable choice for you. There are some states (I think Texas is one) which offer grade forgiveness if the grades are many years old, usually 10. Texas did this back when I first started this process (8 years ago now, wow), and also has the advantage of having a pretty high rate of acceptance for in-state students, which you would be if you moved there and lived there for more than a year. Of course, many of your grades are fairly recent, so it could mean waiting a while, which you may not want to do. Still, waiting until, say...2016 and erasing everything from 2006 and before could REALLY help your GPA. It also means starting over. This also has the advantage of allowing you to say to the admission people, "look, those grades are very old and I am a more mature person now, capable of rocking grades and finishing med school."
Calculate and Pray: Figure out your current cGPA and BCPM GPA. Or ask an advisor or SDN-er or someone to help you. Then figure out how many credits of A's you need to bring your cGPA > 3.0 and your BCPM > 3.25, at a minimum. I'd also figure how many credits of A's you need to bring your cGPA to 3.25 and your BCPM to 3.5 or better. This may not even be POSSIBLE without the DO forgiveness route #1. As you take more and more credits, the amount that your GPA changes for each class decreases. When I first returned to school, I had ~36 credits and a 1.0. My cGPA very quickly went from 1.0 territory to 3.0 territory. It took me another 3 years to get it from 3.0 to 3.3. Fortunately, in my case, my BCPM was basically 3.75 and stayed there.
Best of luck to you. It CAN be done, but it's going to be a long, hard road. Still, if you really, really want it, don't let anyone tell you that it can't be done. You need to ace everything, and rock the MCAT. The lower your GPA's are, the higher an MCAT score you need. If you can get up to a cGPA = 3.25 and BCPM = 3.5, then I'd speculate you need an MCAT > 28 to get in SOMEWHERE or >35 to get in (almost) ANYWHERE. If cGPA is a more realistic 2.8 and BCPM = 3.25, you'll want an MCAT >32, preferably >35...which is tough, but the MCAT helps prove that you CAN handle med school, despite your poor grades.
I wound up in DO school and am graduating in ~3 weeks and going into child psychiatry, for whatever that's worth. And, I couldn't be happier. Don't let pre-meds on SDN tell you that DO school is lame, because it's not. Almost no one in the "real world" cares what initials are behind your name. A licensed physician is a licensed physician.
Quick Summary:
1. Calculate your cGPA and BCPM GPA.
2. See how many credits of A's you'll need to reach target cGPA >3.0 and BCPM > 3.5 (ish). A typical B.S. degree will net you ~120 credits total. I think I graduated with around 140.
3. See how your GPAs will change with DO grade replacement and HIGHLY consider retaking (and aceing) as many F's, D's, and even C's as possible to raise GPA.
4. Consider long-term wait, possible move, and grade forgiveness if available.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2008
- Messages
- 59
- Reaction score
- 24
Just wondering if you feel like DO school prepared you enough for USMLE? I'm getting old and I honestly will go to the first school that gives me the opportunity, DO or MD.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2007
- Messages
- 3,205
- Reaction score
- 253
Yes, and then some. I didn't bother taking it because I'm doing psych and it's an extra $800 or so I didn't need to spend...
I have numerous friends and classmates who took it and got in the 220-240 range. 2 guys in my class got a 279, which is basically God Level. 280 is the top theoretical score. So, yes. It prepares you well.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 35,422
- Reaction score
- 15,396
Fill this out and tell us what you get:
AMCAS GPA Calculation Spreadsheet
Just for fun, also take a look at what would happen to your GPAs if only include the last time you took each class (retakes must be for the same credits or greater). This tells you what your DO application GPA would be like, except that DO schools don't include math in their sGPA.
Another suggestion I'd make is to look into petitioning for retroactive withdrawals for more of your Fs. If you have documentation of some of the family challenges you were dealing with, it might be possible to clean up your record somewhat.
AMCAS GPA Calculation Spreadsheet
Just for fun, also take a look at what would happen to your GPAs if only include the last time you took each class (retakes must be for the same credits or greater). This tells you what your DO application GPA would be like, except that DO schools don't include math in their sGPA.
Another suggestion I'd make is to look into petitioning for retroactive withdrawals for more of your Fs. If you have documentation of some of the family challenges you were dealing with, it might be possible to clean up your record somewhat.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 6,208
- Reaction score
- 36
I would forget md entirely. The time and money to fix that is too big. Focus on DO grade replacement our take your chances with a caribbean education.
Sent from my SCH-R910 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SCH-R910 using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2011
- Messages
- 3,477
- Reaction score
- 1,676
To be competitive for MD, you need at least a 3.6 GPA and a 30 MCAT. Bare minimum, you need a 3.3 GPA. Most schools auto-screen at 3.0, so if you have a 2.9 GPA, your application won't even get looked at by a human being.
For DO, you need to be around a 3.4 GPA and a 27 MCAT. The great thing about DO is that you can do grade retakes and turn Ds into As.
For DO, you need to be around a 3.4 GPA and a 27 MCAT. The great thing about DO is that you can do grade retakes and turn Ds into As.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 6,208
- Reaction score
- 36
Honestly, if you can do soul searching and find something else, do that. If not, there's hope, but to really do those 20 courses will take 5 to 6 semesters. You'll definitely have to do it at a 4-year university, get at minimum a 32 on the MCAT and then get an SMP to be competitive. Personally, this is not a gamble I would take. I'd shoot for D.O., where I can do grade replacement, or move on with my life.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2007
- Messages
- 3,205
- Reaction score
- 253
Don't listen to all the SDN number inflation. If you were able to get your BCPM up to a 3.2 (and whatever your cGPA 2.7 would get up to...3.5?), you could TOTALLY get into a DO school.
You do NOT need a 3.6 or 30 MCAT to be competitive for MD school. For DO you DO NOT need a 3.4 or 27. I've seen many people get into both schools with much lower numbers.
Four years ago, a minority student was accepted to Yale MD with an MCAT of 19. I personally know classmates of mine at one of (if not THE) top DO school with MCATs of 24-26. The numbers being spouted off around SDN as "Absolute Minimum" are closer to the AVERAGE.
No one can tell you what the true absolute minimum is, because honestly, we don't know. We get averages, but they are just that. If the average MCAT is 30, and they accept someone with a 40, then they could also have accepted someone with a freaking 20.
ADCOMs also DO look at your turnaround. If you went back to school and rocked 80 credits of tough science A's. Someone will notice. If you rock the MCAT (>30) someone will notice. Not all schools filter either.
If you really want to do this, you should focus on DO, where your chances are much greater. You'll have to apply everywhere, which is expensive, but it IS doable.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 35,422
- Reaction score
- 15,396
Take heart, as this is true. It isn't just about the raw numbers, it's also about trend and consistent excellence once you turn it around.
With this and a strong MCAT score, that may be all you need. Excellent ECs also help adcomms overlook application imperfections. So do strong LORs and a compelling Personal Statement.
Your major doesn't matter, but I do think you will need to provide proven proficiency in upper-level Bio and Biochem beyond the typical prerequisites. The more the better. A Bio major might make it easier to have access to such classes. A need for postbac or SMP can be decided at a future time.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2011
- Messages
- 3,477
- Reaction score
- 1,676
https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf
This grid has all the information you really need to gauge trends. A 19 MCAT has about an 8% chance to be admitted and that is entirely concentrated at the very high end (GPA >3.5). Rocking the MCAT is no longer a >30 score, but more like a 35+. Remember, the median of all acceptees is between a 31 and a 32 nowadays. LizzyM has commented that some adcom members are remarking that a 33 is a "low score" even though that is in the 90th percentile. That said, a high MCAT can go only so far, a 3.0 and a 40+ MCAT is only a 50% chance to be admitted according to the table. The sample size is low, but that's more of a testament to how competitive medical school admission is, since students with a 3.0 aren't applying to med school. And almost always, it's because of significant legacy (eg daddy buying the school hospital a new wing) or other massively extenuating circumstances, like fleeing a warzone carrying your entire family while studying biochemistry in Zimbabwe. Your average applicant with a 19 MCAT is going to get auto-screened.
I think the OP has to be realistic. Yes, it's possible to re-hab that grade into something somewhat competitive for an MD. That would probably require anywhere from 4 to 6+ years of additional coursework, all at a 4.0 level. Going the DO route is much more tenable, as grade replacement can turn a 2.0 in a 3.6 in a couple of years. I think that's what everyone in this thread is trying to say.
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2011
- Messages
- 3,499
- Reaction score
- 770
Regarding the bolded, keep in mind that LizzyM is an adcom member at a top school. For those schools, 33 IS a low(ish) score, but for the vast majority of schools it is median to high.
I totally love what you wrote it really helped me also
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2011
- Messages
- 3,477
- Reaction score
- 1,676
DO's used to be looked down upon but that mostly in the older generation. I think nowadays there is much more respect between the two disciplines. DOs are licensed to practice in all 50 states, they can specialize in anything an MD can and the stigma surrounding DO is disappearing more and more every year.
OMT is really the only controversial part of becoming a DO. I think opinion is divided on either side, but I don't know too much about the views of OMT in the DO community. There is some statistic out there that something like 90% of all DOs don't use OMT when they enter practice.
Finally, DO schools are much more open to non-trads and those that show a strong upward trend. The few DOs I have looked into don't really screen on MCAT/GPA so you have a much higher chance of a human being looking at your application than in MD schools which can have automatic screenouts at 3.0/27 (seems to be most common) or whatever that particular school's cutoff is.
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2010
- Messages
- 72,592
- Reaction score
- 115,585
Just go in with an open mind and try to learn something. My DO colleagues are quite bright and caring professionals. Even if, say, 50% of OMT is no better than placebo, the other 50% does work and the honest-to-god holistic attitude is real.
Storngly suggest just starting over from scratch with a 2nd BS/BS. don't think your numbers would get you into a decent post-bac/SMP
And ignore the "I knew a guy who got itno Harvard with a 0 on the MCAT" comments...that's like saying "I knew a guy who won the Lotto".
Storngly suggest just starting over from scratch with a 2nd BS/BS. don't think your numbers would get you into a decent post-bac/SMP
And ignore the "I knew a guy who got itno Harvard with a 0 on the MCAT" comments...that's like saying "I knew a guy who won the Lotto".
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2007
- Messages
- 3,205
- Reaction score
- 253
Don't listen to 99% of the DO trash talk you hear on SDN. I've spent 2 years doing clinical rotations with MDs and have experienced no "discrimination".
The only difference is that DOs learn OMM (aka OMT) in school. MDs do not, but some choose to learn it at some point. One MD in my hometown has an OMM only practice and is, in effect, the only "DO" in town.
The truth is that < 5% of DOs use OMM. The reasons for this are largely financial. OMM reimbursement was basically nil during the 90's and most docs stopped using it. In my experience, OMM is useful for minor musculoskeletal complaints.
Other than OMM, which is basically an extra 2 hours a week lecture and lab, MD and DO schools are almost identical. There is less emphasis on research at DO schools, and many DO rotations are at community hospitals not academic ones. The advantage of this is that you are one on one with the attendings most of the time, and tend to get to actually do more stuff, especially as a 3rd year. The disadvantage is that you see less zebras, but I still saw a ton. In the end the choice should be personal, and based on career goals. If your goal is research or working in an academic setting, I would lean MD. If you want to do private practice either one is fine.
There are quacks with both initials. In pretty much equal proportions. Don't worry about it.
The only difference is that DOs learn OMM (aka OMT) in school. MDs do not, but some choose to learn it at some point. One MD in my hometown has an OMM only practice and is, in effect, the only "DO" in town.
The truth is that < 5% of DOs use OMM. The reasons for this are largely financial. OMM reimbursement was basically nil during the 90's and most docs stopped using it. In my experience, OMM is useful for minor musculoskeletal complaints.
Other than OMM, which is basically an extra 2 hours a week lecture and lab, MD and DO schools are almost identical. There is less emphasis on research at DO schools, and many DO rotations are at community hospitals not academic ones. The advantage of this is that you are one on one with the attendings most of the time, and tend to get to actually do more stuff, especially as a 3rd year. The disadvantage is that you see less zebras, but I still saw a ton. In the end the choice should be personal, and based on career goals. If your goal is research or working in an academic setting, I would lean MD. If you want to do private practice either one is fine.
There are quacks with both initials. In pretty much equal proportions. Don't worry about it.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 35,422
- Reaction score
- 15,396
1) It's the most recent grade that counts, provided the credit hours are the same or greater. Course title and college need not be the same. But the course description from the catalogs need to be fairly similar.
2) AACOMAS DO schools do not include math in their sGPA. There are some other differences: (scroll to bottom half): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=552026
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2007
- Messages
- 3,205
- Reaction score
- 253
Awesome. Glad to help! I think you have a great shot with those numbers replaced. If you REALLY want it, don't let anyone stop you or tell you can't do it. Where there's a will, there's a way. If you ever need inspiration, just go watch Pursuit of Happyness, hahaha.
