low grades and competitive psych residency?

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Dkr

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I'm about to be a MSII at a top 40 US school. Despite working hard all year I wasn't able to pull the grades I was hoping for. Throughout the year I was pretty consistently in the bottom half of the class at a P/F school. No failures though.

I know that psych is generally not considered competitive but I am interested in hopefully applying to programs in southern California (many of which are the best out there) so that I can stay close to family and friends. Do you think this is a possible feat for someone with low grades? Is there anything else I can do to make myself more competitive?

More info about me is that I'm doing research and volunteering in psych related fields. I'm pretty sure I'll get at least a poster out of the research.

Any advice is appreciated!

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no one cares about your grades during the first 2 years. your grades in your 3rd year clinical clerkships are more important and weight heavily at the more competitive programs. Aim to honor your psychiatry rotation and something like medicine, pediatrics, neurology etc. you have everything to play for and i would not worry too much about the first 2 years of med school which quite frankly having little to do with being a doctor, and less to do with being a psychiatrist.
 
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I'm about to be a MSII at a top 40 US school. Despite working hard all year I wasn't able to pull the grades I was hoping for. Throughout the year I was pretty consistently in the bottom half of the class at a P/F school. No failures though.

I know that psych is generally not considered competitive but I am interested in hopefully applying to programs in southern California (many of which are the best out there) so that I can stay close to family and friends. Do you think this is a possible feat for someone with low grades? Is there anything else I can do to make myself more competitive?

More info about me is that I'm doing research and volunteering in psych related fields. I'm pretty sure I'll get at least a poster out of the research.

Any advice is appreciated!

grades the first two years in fields like derm, radonc, etc are important. It's often what separates the matchers from the people who dont match in these fields.

In psych though, they arent a huge deal. If you go to a good allopathic US school and have a marginal to decent step1 score and showed some interest in psych and did ok on your clinical rotations(ie no pattern of concerning or mediocre comments in evals), you should be fine to match at the programs you want.....it really is impossible to state just how noncompetitive psych is.

If you're dead set on going to a UCLA or some other big cali program for example though, I'd shoot for at least a 215-220 on step1 to go along with those other things.....
 
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I second that a Step1 around 220 is highly advisable for a UCLA (being that I'm at a UCLA program).

The UCLA programs are among the best in the country, so if you want to go there do what you can to present a complete application. So far I've seen more cases than many of my colleagues in other programs (from casual chit-chat), all kinds of pathology, given a healthy level of autonomy, and pushed to new heights by top attendings and nurses. I really like my fellow residents, and the attendings are quite dedicated to teaching. Los Angeles offers a huge region ideal for training in.

While psychiatry is not competitive, top programs are selective (and some are competitive actually). Where I'm at, the leadership has to like you. And there's a lot behind that statement. Period.
 
Its encouraging to hear that these programs could be in my reach. In the future, I want to make sure I can get great training in a great location.

And I was particularly interested in UCSD, UCLA, and UCI. I'd love to hear of anyone's experience with these places. Special thanks to Shufflin for the insider advice!
 
Your welcome Dkr. Psychiatry is an awesome field and a real privilege to practice, even at the PGY1 level and that says something.

Skipped applying to UCI, so can't help there. UCI is a funny bird.

I interviewed at UCSD and all the UCLA programs and I can say that UCSD is a great program that puts its strength into biological (medicine management) psychiatry. Be prepared to spend your time commuting around 3 different locations though. You will work hard there. San Diego is gorgeous. They said over 80% if I recall stay in San Diego. Very nice and approachable residents - I was surprised at how many are from foreign med schools.

Some of the UCLA programs are selective, and Harbor residents can train a bit at NPI and NPI residents can train a bit at Harbor and West LA VA. It's a sweet deal. Have your eyes set on an academic career? Go NPI. Want to see everything under the sun and be able to handle anything and be known for that? Go Harbor. Have a penchant for veterans and desire for a less stressful experience? Go San Fernando Valley. The UCLA name carries grads far, with some of the best opptys in SoCal going to them coming right out. I know this from first-hand experience with current graduating residents. I look forward to seeing you at interviews.

Good luck!
 
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errr.. UCLA-SFV is not competitive and UCLA-NPI residents do NOT train there they rotate at the West LA VA. and let's not forget UCLA-Kern.. avoid!

UCLA-NPI and Harbor <3
 
I interviewed at UCSD and all the UCLA programs and I can say that UCSD is a great program that puts its strength into biological (medicine management) psychiatry. Be prepared to spend your time commuting around 3 different locations though. You will work hard there. San Diego is gorgeous. They said over 80% if I recall stay in San Diego. Very nice and approachable residents - I was surprised at how many are from foreign med schools.

RE commuting between work sites:

You mention commuting between 3 sites in SD; if one is at Harbor or NPI, is there similar commuting between sites? I ask because the thought of driving (a lot) in LA freaks me out, but otherwise I am very interested in these programs.

I also looked at the UCSD website, and am puzzled by what seems to be to me a very high pctg of foreign grads. Does anybody have any insight?
 
RE commuting between work sites:

You mention commuting between 3 sites in SD; if one is at Harbor or NPI, is there similar commuting between sites? I ask because the thought of driving (a lot) in LA freaks me out, but otherwise I am very interested in these programs.

I also looked at the UCSD website, and am puzzled by what seems to be to me a very high pctg of foreign grads. Does anybody have any insight?

Harbor and NPI are UCLA two distinct psychiatry programs, not UCSD sites.

If you are at NPI, you will spend your first year at the VA (the exception is the Harbor track student who is technically a resident at NPI but spends his or her PGY1 at Harbor in Torrance. They also started a Harbor light track for a second resident.) Then your subsequent three years I think are spent at Ronald Regan Hospital. If you are in the Harbor program, you can work at one of the dozens of clinics at NPI in your PGY4 year to fine-tune and network. But that is optional. You could spend all 4 years at Harbor and never have to commute to other sites except for the geriatrics and Kaiser rotations if I'm not mistaken.
 
Harbor and NPI are UCLA two distinct psychiatry programs, not UCSD sites.

If you are at NPI, you will spend your first year at the VA (the exception is the Harbor track student who is technically a resident at NPI but spends his or her PGY1 at Harbor in Torrance. They also started a Harbor light track for a second resident.) Then your subsequent three years I think are spent at Ronald Regan Hospital. If you are in the Harbor program, you can work at one of the dozens of clinics at NPI in your PGY4 year to fine-tune and network. But that is optional. You could spend all 4 years at Harbor and never have to commute to other sites except for the geriatrics and Kaiser rotations if I'm not mistaken.

Sorry for my confusing phrasing - you answered my questions about the 2 UCLA programs. Sounds like the driving demands in LA are manageable.
 
I'm about to be a MSII at a top 40 US school. Despite working hard all year I wasn't able to pull the grades I was hoping for. Throughout the year I was pretty consistently in the bottom half of the class at a P/F school. No failures though.

I know that psych is generally not considered competitive but I am interested in hopefully applying to programs in southern California (many of which are the best out there) so that I can stay close to family and friends. Do you think this is a possible feat for someone with low grades? Is there anything else I can do to make myself more competitive?

More info about me is that I'm doing research and volunteering in psych related fields. I'm pretty sure I'll get at least a poster out of the research.

Any advice is appreciated!

You're 100% fine for wherever. Do decently on step 1, which really means low average or above, get that research you talked about and do well on your psych rotation. Try to score some good letters from psych and from some other specialty (what this is doesn't really matter) and show up at all the psych related functions at your school.
 
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no one cares about your grades during the first 2 years. your grades in your 3rd year clinical clerkships are more important and weight heavily at the more competitive programs. Aim to honor your psychiatry rotation and something like medicine, pediatrics, neurology etc. you have everything to play for and i would not worry too much about the first 2 years of med school which quite frankly having little to do with being a doctor, and less to do with being a psychiatrist.

This. LORs, Step 1, and Step 2 are the most important factors. I have found that at most programs, psych does tend to look more at the "whole person" application than, say, med school admissions.

Don't fail anything, make friends on rotations, and get good LORs. You'll be fine.

If you're shooting for an Ivy or something, it's more competitive, but for the most part, as things stand now (which is always subject to change) psych is relatively easy to match into.
 
What's wrong with Kern? Got a friend that is there and he likes it a lot (I think it was his #1 choice). I mean, I don't like the location, but the program is supposed to be quite good.

UCLA-NPI is probably top 10 in the country, maybe even top 5. So if you want to go there, would aim for 230+. It's getting competitive. Psych in general isn't, but good programs in good locations are competitive and they look at all top applicants from around the country.

UCSD, UCI, Loma Linda, USC, and SFV are all excellent and will give you good training, if we're talking bout Cali programs.
 
If you are at NPI, you will spend your first year at the VA (the exception is the Harbor track student who is technically a resident at NPI but spends his or her PGY1 at Harbor in Torrance. They also started a Harbor light track for a second resident.) Then your subsequent three years I think are spent at Ronald Regan Hospital. If you are in the Harbor program, you can work at one of the dozens of clinics at NPI in your PGY4 year to fine-tune and network. But that is optional. You could spend all 4 years at Harbor and never have to commute to other sites except for the geriatrics and Kaiser rotations if I'm not mistaken.

UCLA-NPI residents spend most of their intern year at the West LA VA with some months at UCLA proper, and 1 month at Harbor doing ER psych.

It has been many moons since I was at Harbor (you would not have even been a medical student then) so it may have changed but at that time the interns did at least a month of psych at a VA (?substance abuse/?PICU) and there was from PGY-2 Kaiser rotations and teaching in psychodynamics etc at that time was mainly at Kaiser. I don't know if that is currently the case. If you want to see the real sick patients and get great training would highly recommend.
 
I think the only point of the first 2 years of med school is to prepare you for Step 1. A good Step 1 score would completely nullify any issues with your grades (unless there's an F of course). Most of the top medical schools do not even grade their students in the first 2 years beyond P and F.
 
I think the only point of the first 2 years of med school is to prepare you for Step 1. A good Step 1 score would completely nullify any issues with your grades (unless there's an F of course). Most of the top medical schools do not even grade their students in the first 2 years beyond P and F.

I thought you were foreign (as am I)? the first 2 years of medical school are not to prepare you for step 1 (if you go to a decent school) but to inculcate you in the basic sciences necessary for the practice of medicine. Do medical schools go overboard? Yes. Does step 1 test useless minutiae irrelevant to the practice of medicine? Absolutely. But it is the first 2 years of medical school that chiefly separate physicians from other healthcare providers. I do think there needs to be more of an emphasis on the basic principles of physiology etc. rather than the dross that you're expected to know...but being able to apply said principles (admittedly rarely) is partly why physicians can justify their exorbitant salaries. Compare the level of physiology etc nurses are expected to know.
 
I thought you were foreign (as am I)? the first 2 years of medical school are not to prepare you for step 1 (if you go to a decent school) but to inculcate you in the basic sciences necessary for the practice of medicine. Do medical schools go overboard? Yes. Does step 1 test useless minutiae irrelevant to the practice of medicine? Absolutely. But it is the first 2 years of medical school that chiefly separate physicians from other healthcare providers. I do think there needs to be more of an emphasis on the basic principles of physiology etc. rather than the dross that you're expected to know...but being able to apply said principles (admittedly rarely) is partly why physicians can justify their exorbitant salaries. Compare the level of physiology etc nurses are expected to know.

I am foreign, but I go to an American based med school with an American curriculum.

The point of Step 1 in itself is in many of the things you mentioned (being good at basic sciences) in addition to using sequential and multi-step reasoning which are important components of the clinical reasoning you will use along your career, so saying the point of the first two years of med schools is to prepare you for Step 1 for the large part doesn't contradict the value of their importance in how well they prepare you to be a physician - just merely to point out that Step 1 is taken to be the best and most objective arbiter of how well you grasped those 2 years. As I said, many of the top med schools with an increasing trend do not even grade their students beyond a P and an F in the first couple of years.
 
the P/F system sounds like a good thing i went to a medschool where we were ranked for our performance and the ranking was posted on a wall for all to see (except if you failed, but everyone would know as your name would not be on the list). not surprisingly it made things cutthroat.. so much for team work.
 
I wish physiologic reasoning was really the thrust of it rather than just a part. But having just taken the step 1 it seems to be emblematic of who takes the lead in our education at this stage--non-clinicians and pathologists. I don't know how much longer I'll know the immunofluorescence pattern of pemphigus vulgaris samples, but I don't feel all that prepared to be a clerk by it and it's like. Seems like our kind seems to gravitate towards massive trivial pursuit competitions, for no other reason to be at the top of the heap. It's a vibe that feeds on itself.

Incidentally, I don't think it's our science that really brands us so much as the long time we spend on clinical teams where there is always someone up the chain to rely on for judgement calls. Wherein we learn how to make astute and careful medical decisions. My Oxford American Handbook of Clinical Diagnosis extensively cites a 2005 paper by Graber et al that breaks down the reasons for clinical error as being largely unrelated to fund of knowledge but directly a consequence of incorrect diagnostic thinking. Nothing, not one thing, in my first 2 years has taught me anything about patterns of clinical decision making that are less prone to erroneous conlusions.

Regardless, I really appreciate this thread's contributers. I'll soon have my score and am apprehensive about my prospects as well. As a large portion of my interviewability will hinge on it.
 
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whats so bad about ucla-kern? why are you guys saying to avoid it?
 
If you're dead set on going to a UCLA or some other big cali program for example though, I'd shoot for at least a 215-220 on step1 to go along with those other things.....
You need 215-220 for a competitive program! What one would need for a community program then?
 
Ari202- you revived a 2-1/2 year old thread here and an 8 year old thread elsewhere to cross post. Please don't.

Feel free to start a thread asking about UCLA Kern or asking the question in a living thread that makes sense, but please don't revive dead threads...
 
Ari202- you revived a 2-1/2 year old thread here and an 8 year old thread elsewhere to cross post. Please don't.

Feel free to start a thread asking about UCLA Kern or asking the question in a living thread that makes sense, but please don't revive dead threads...

oh sorry about that! i'll make new thread.
 
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