Low Number of Invites - Should I be Worried?

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Wyvernrider

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I only have received 4 interview invites out of the 44 programs that I applied to. I have a low step 1 and am not able to take the step 2 until the end of this month. Most of my programs were in metropolitan areas across the nation. US allopathic.

At what point should I be worried? Should I add more programs?

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From what I know from previous years, I would say "yes". But almost everyone I know that is going Psy this year is having the same problem. I have 1/2 the number of interviews I was expecting. But, at the same time, I had a hard time finding 20 places I wanted to live to start with. I am picky about where I live. So, I am going to hope I get a few more and leave it at that.

I am late on Step 2 CK as well (first part of Nov) and have a below average Step 1.

At this point, I really do not know what to do except take what I got and hope it is good enough. Or get ready to scramble!
 
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From what I know from previous years, I would say "yes". But almost everyone I know that is going Psy this year is having the same problem. I have 1/2 the number of interviews I was expecting. But, at the same time, I had a hard time finding 20 places I wanted to live to start with. I am picky about where I live. So, I am going to hope I get a few more and leave it at that.

I am late on Step 2 CK as well (first part of Nov) and have a below average Step 1.

At this point, I really do not know what to do except take what I got and hope it is good enough. Or get ready to scramble!

Having step 2 CK in (and a good score on it) does not seem to have helped me avoid a similar fate. Mostly just hoping to hit eight (though I would be perfectly happy to get just one more if it was the right one, tbh).
 
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Having step 2 CK in (and a good score on it) does not seem to have helped me avoid a similar fate. Mostly just hoping to hit eight (though I would be perfectly happy to get just one more if it was the right one, tbh).
Similar situation here. I have invites, but not the ones I really want. Unfortunately, most of my top choices are mostly for geography and I don't think that's a very compelling email to write to a PC/PD.
 
I wish we could trade interviews with people. What could go wrong?
 
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I would feel much better if I had 2 to 3 more. Although the ones I did get are all in my top 10.
Same here, although this could be equally worrying because those programs are more competitive -> less chance of matching? :\
 
I think this is par for the course this year.

I have a decent # of invites but the majority of them are to in-state programs (and I applied fairly broadly - I'm not really committed to staying or leaving, and there are several great in state programs I'd be happy at). Not sure if programs are seeing way more apps and really going for regional connections or if the whole process is just slowed down I got a couple of OOS invites the first week and then silence since MSPE came out. Friends from last year told me all their OOS invites came way later though so who knows. I've actually considered going back and adding the 3 in state places I avoided applying to because of location but I really don't think I need to.
 
I think it depends on how much you like those 4 programs you got interviews at. Let's see, I got 5 out of 7 programs I originally applied to. Then because my dean and everyone else urged me to apply to more, I added 2 more programs. Out of the 5 interviews I have, two of them are safety programs so I feel pretty good about just 5 interviews. The 2 more programs I added are at the bottom of my list and I frankly don't think I'm going to have any more interviews even though I added more programs. If you look at the NMRP data, you're pretty set to match with 4 contiguous ranks at >88% match rate, and the <12% who didn't match are probably not very competitive applicants. With 5 contiguous ranks, you're looking at >96%, and then people with 6 contiguous ranks last year had 100% match rate. If you're interviewing at decent programs and know you're not a bad interviewer, you will be fine.

I mean, last year, 29 people (US grads) only ranked 1 program and 20 of them matched.
 
I worry about predictions in this game, but I’m going to risk a point or two. If the assumption is that psych is being used as a “back up” for surgeons, derm, and ortho people, my prediction that the scramble could be extra rich this year would make some sense. Programs that are used to 8-10 ranks per position may need closer to 12 if the top end of their list is filled with “back up” applicants. If I’m right, it is hard to know what to say to someone with 40 applications and 3 or 4 interviews. It all comes down to the validity of the “back up theory”. If psych just jumped into a competitive specialty in one year, then applying to more would be the right suggestion. If it is the “back up thing”, adding 20 more probably less desirable applications may not do anything. Most people match in their top 3 or 4 but there are exceptions. If you already picked 40 places, who is to say your next 20 less desirable places will be any better than what you might get in the scramble? Programs that don’t fill are not necessarily the weaker programs; often it is overconfidence (which can be more prevalent among the better programs).


The truth is, as time passes since 10/01, programs will invite most of who they have room for. Getting part II in, or e-mailing us to tell us you have a fourth LOR will only help if people get real and cut down their interviews. I think this will happen; it is just a matter of how much it will happen. Just looking at the “What are my chances” thread and this discussion, it does seem like there is less room for qualified people. I have trouble believing that the amount of room for qualified applicants has changed that much.


I know this is getting long, but I have one other thought. In hind sight, overall, we know that the number of domestic MD graduates is climbing and the number or residency spots is staying fairly stagnant, or at least not expanding to meet this change. There has been anxiety expressed by IMGs that this will push them further out of the running as the 50% of psych spots they fill goes to 40%, 30% and so on. Since medical schools are not expanding by 10 or 20% with people who are dying to become psychiatrists, the hydraulic dynamics of this is set up to push domestic grads who want derm or neuro surg into specialties like psych, FM, Peds, or anywhere else there is “room”. So if we ask ourselves what this would look like, I think it would look just like what we are seeing now. The $100,000 question still remains, now that the want to be derm people have been scared to death into flooding our selection process, just how real is all of the anxiety? My best guess is that if interest in psych jumps more than ever before, it will still be less than a 10% growth and applications seem to be close to double by some reports. By the way, I don’t look forward to matching a bunch of very talented disappointed derm want to be s.
 
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[Emailing us about] a fourth LOR.

Sorta off-topic, but I have a question: A lot of programs clearly state "3 LOR" but I was talking to some friends and they all said they sent 4 LOR to every program. Should I just say "screw it" and send my fourth to all those other programs? My interviews are evenly split between 3 and 4 LOR programs so I don't think it's holding me back, just curious about what your advice is on this topic.
 
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Those who had one *contiguous* rank were probably a mix of:
1) people who were told 100% that they were garunteed a match (not just "ranked to match")
2) people who only got one interview
3) people who ranked a categorical psych program first and a combined program second.

I'd wager with no scientific evidence that for us mds, about half of the " didnt match to preferred specialty" are #3 (but matched to the combined program at #2) and several of those who did match ranked a combined program second. The rest who did match are probably a mix of 1 and 3 with more 1 than 3. Those who didn't were probably mostly # 3 with big red flags or really bad interpersonal skills at interviews.
 
I think it depends on how much you like those 4 programs you got interviews at. Let's see, I got 5 out of 7 programs I originally applied to. Then because my dean and everyone else urged me to apply to more, I added 2 more programs. Out of the 5 interviews I have, two of them are safety programs so I feel pretty good about just 5 interviews. The 2 more programs I added are at the bottom of my list and I frankly don't think I'm going to have any more interviews even though I added more programs. If you look at the NMRP data, you're pretty set to match with 4 contiguous ranks at >88% match rate, and the <12% who didn't match are probably not very competitive applicants. With 5 contiguous ranks, you're looking at >96%, and then people with 6 contiguous ranks last year had 100% match rate. If you're interviewing at decent programs and know you're not a bad interviewer, you will be fine.

I mean, last year, 29 people (US grads) only ranked 1 program and 20 of them matched.
There are a few who ranked more than 6 programs and still did not match... However, ranking 6+ programs put one in a good spot to match.
 
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Sorta off-topic, but I have a question: A lot of programs clearly state "3 LOR" but I was talking to some friends and they all said they sent 4 LOR to every program. Should I just say "screw it" and send my fourth to all those other programs? My interviews are evenly split between 3 and 4 LOR programs so I don't think it's holding me back, just curious about what your advice is on this topic.
If we say 3, three is enough, but no one will mind 4. If you have them, just upload them. The exception could be if you suspect one of them is too thin or not positive.
 
If we say 3, three is enough, but no one will mind 4. If you have them, just upload them. The exception could be if you suspect one of them is too thin or not positive.
I was actually struggling to narrow down to 3, so I'll send the fourth, although I'm not going to ask people to actively download it just yet. Thanks!
 
Sorta off-topic, but I have a question: A lot of programs clearly state "3 LOR" but I was talking to some friends and they all said they sent 4 LOR to every program. Should I just say "screw it" and send my fourth to all those other programs? My interviews are evenly split between 3 and 4 LOR programs so I don't think it's holding me back, just curious about what your advice is on this topic.
I don't care.
 
Hay OldPsychDoc, Shhhh! Haven’t you heard, educational gaps are encouraged and are never a bad mark (except for the ones that are). Be careful or you will get a dozen posts explaining how there are perfectly good reasons besides MPHs and PhDs to take some time out and contemplate existential arguments or even your navel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aaddWJtRoQ
 
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Hay OldPsychDoc, Shhhh! Haven’t you heard, educational gaps are encouraged and are never a bad mark (except for the ones that are). Be careful or you will get a dozen posts explaining how there are perfectly good reasons besides MPHs and PhDs to take some time out and contemplate existential arguments or even your navel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aaddWJtRoQ
Funny enough, we are actually encouraged to take extra degrees / research years / etc. If (all) educational gaps were detrimental, 60% of my class would go un- or under-matched!
 
Funny enough, we are actually encouraged to take extra degrees / research years / etc. If (all) educational gaps were detrimental, 60% of my class would go un- or under-matched!

Let me clarify: A "gap" in the traditional path through medical school that is clearly evident from your CV as being attributable to another degree program is NOT a gap at all. Time off between undergrad and med school is not a gap--whether spent in the workplace, Peace Corps, grad school, postbacc program, or backpacking across Antarctica. Please enjoy them, take pride in them, write about them, tell us how you learned from them and grew as a person because of them. More power to you! Taking time off for compassionate purposes--being on a flex time med school track for parenting reasons, needing to take a documented bereavement or personal medical leave even--are not gaps per se, though be prepared to respond to questions about them.

However, taking 6 years to finish medical school without evident emphasis on a dual degree program, leaving one school and entering a different one three years later, starting a residency in another field and quitting for "personal reasons" which are not addressed in your personal statement (and hopefully a supportive letter from your previous PD!), having months long gaps in your work/educational history that are not accounted for...these are gaps of the red flag nature that require explanations, and will raise questions about your abilities to follow through and complete a residency program.

In addition, I'd also refer you to the thread about credentialling started by Dr. Sunlioness--note that even short gaps can be called out for explanation in your future credentialling. I recently even had to give a detailed explanation of why I took 4.5 years to complete residency back in the day (doing basic science research that couldn't be counted for clinical credit) just to get courtesy staff credentials at a hospital where I administratively consult! Everything you do can be held against you by someone!
 
I don't have any felonies or gaps in my education. Still crickets...

Probably going to add more applications tomorrow even though the problem seems to be that there are too many application floating around in the first place.
 
Hay OldPsychDoc, Shhhh! Haven’t you heard, educational gaps are encouraged and are never a bad mark (except for the ones that are). Be careful or you will get a dozen posts explaining how there are perfectly good reasons besides MPHs and PhDs to take some time out and contemplate existential arguments or even your navel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aaddWJtRoQ



Haha! I come back to this forum and MDT still cracking jokes! I do seriously want to chime in that you and OPD were absolutely correct about my gap being the BIGGEST issue with my application.

At this point in your mind you can say, "yup, told ya so!"

I absolutely feel that a felony would have to be worse than a gap but even worse would be someone stupid enough to HIDE a felony. Well, I hope that's worse than a gap! Can you imagine the selection committee?? "Well we obviously have to throw out this guy's app with a huge gap, but I found a solid group of felons we MUST inverview.."

A gap is worse than failing step one or almost any other red flag I can think of. You see there are just shy of 200 programs and I spent maybe 60+ hours researching everything about every program in America and gaps are VERY important.

I am from an amazing US allopathic school and have even passed step 3, but I have a TEN year gap.

I consider myself somewhat of a gap expert though. There are several types of gaps. Also, a gap to get a PHD or do anything related to medicine or education is not a real gap. There are basically 4 stances programs take and they state it very specifically and clearly in the requirements for applying.

1. We will essentially throw out your application if you have any gaps. This is rare and only super premium programs took this stance. I suspect programs in fields more competitive than pysch take this stance more frequently, but I think only maybe 10/192 psych programs took this stance.

2. We will essentially throw out your application if you have a gap of 3 yrs/5yrs/or 10yrs. I don't know why 3,5,and 10 are the magic cut off gap numbers but you see these 3 variants of no-gap requirements in approximately 110/192 programs!

3. As you can see I now can physically only apply to 62 programs. But there's another stance! "We are against gaps but we just did not mention it on our application requirements page!" Uh oh I wonder how many I have left now.

4. The fourth type is common but does not apply to me. If you are an IMG and have a gap we will throw out your application, but gap okay for AMG.

I basically found 60/192 programs which either say they do not care about a gap, or they would 'prefer' no gaps, OR they simply do not mention anything about gaps in the app requirements.

With everything working against me my school still decided to help me apply to match for this year in psychiatry even though it will be a long shot. And yes a gap will also follow you forever, but everything will follow you forever if you think about it.

Basically if I do not match this year I need to get some solid recent clinical experience and recent LORs and shoot for 2017. With recent clinical experience, I will likely be able to apply broader too.

The good news is I really feel the programs I selected are very strong with excellent training. They just do not have big IV league names, prestige, etc.

Out of 60 I eliminated 10 I felt were not that strong/good fits for me. It felt good just to eliminate SOME programs to be honest. Out of the remaining 50 I applied to my top 25 on Sept 30 and depending on feedback I will apply to 15-25 more Oct 30 or possibly November.

Out of 25 I have 2 rejections. Zero invites but trust me I am not a candidate who is likely to get many of the first October invite slots.

Basically, I need luck. Once again I find myself in a position where I need luck. This has happened to me so many times in life that I actually feel I am better at being lucky than others. People sometimes get upset cause they are like, "How freaking lucky can that guy get!? What a luckbox!" Like I have some magical power to be lucky. I am not luckier than any other person, I just am good at luck, but that doesn't make any sense I know. I guess I see it coming and can maximize it better? Also, if you think you are not lucky then you are not lucky. That doesn't make any sense either but it's true. Luck can actually be mathematically represented thru variance (SD2). Wow. Now I am off on a total tangent. I would never bring up luck as one of my strengths lol but I am good at it. Sorry. I know you are laughing right now too :) "Wait, is this guy really saying that he is good at luck?? What the f does that mean?? What an a-hole!" Yes, but a lucky a-hole.

If I'm interviewing, I already did it in other words. For example, I had what I would consider no chance of getting into medical school, so I only applied to one school as a goof, planning to reapply the following year, consider getting a stronger mcat score etc. I got in. That is just a very small example you would never believe how I actually made it through medical school. Okay, okay, enough magical thinking. I mean I can give a man a fish, but I can not teach you to fish in just one post.

HAHAHAHAHA. Forgive me. Some of my jokes and humor are for my own entertainment. I'm such a tool. I know. I know.


So I get this email at the end of last week... Sweet! Likely another rejection! Yes!! Awesome!! Yipee!! Oh cool the email is from one of my top picks which is a longshot! I'm glad I'm wrapping up my week with another rejection! Give me an R! Give me an E! Give me a J! Sooooweeeeee baaybeee!

So I open the email and it's not a rejection, but it's not an invite. They are very pleased to have received my application and could you please assist us in our difficult selection process by filling out this supplemental questionnaire? Rut Row. What are these questions gonna be?? There are only 3-4 questions and they are very simple except for one. I do not want to post the questions, but a couple were basically how did ya find out about our program and the area our program is in etc.

The only difficult Q is why are you specifically a good fit for our program and why are we specifically a good fit for you?

The program is in my top 10 possibly top 5 out of the 50 I selected, but they do not know that.

I feel my answer could influence whether or not I receive an interview. I feel it should be 6 sentences long with 3 addressing each part of the 2 part question. I don't want to turn it into a PS2 but there is certainly enough space for much more than 6 sentences. I guess I just have to speak from the heart, and I've already made some good parallels in my head between the patient population at my medical school and their program, but I NEED this interview. Once in an interview setting that is my strength, and I will fare better than average. I need them to want to talk to me in person though.

I am honestly very flattered that this program is considering me. I need to let them know how interested I am, but I can't write that they are my top 5 because they will think I'm just writing that to get an interview. But it's true and I need to figure out a way to let that come across and the responses to the questionnaire need to be given by tomorrow morning.

I can't put too plain and typical responses like simply regurgitating positive qualities already mentioned on the program's website. Also, I can't think too far outside of the box or give 'shocking', 'grab your attention' answers. This is because my personal statement is already a "triple read phone a friend" meaning a PD who attempts to skim my 444 word PS will end up slowly reading it 2-3 times and then call a friend to say, "holy cow you are not gonna believe the PS that just landed on my desk!" The reason spliks 6 types of PS are so common is because coming straight out of medical school you almost have to fall into one of those 6 categories. But if you did something else for 10 years it's gonna be a lu lu.

Does anyone have any experience with these supp questionnaires? Anyone ever fill one out that led to an interview or a rejection? Does 6 sentences seem too short? Should I maybe write 2 paragraphs? I need to write a very honest, from the heart response but at the same time if there is ANYTHING I can write to tip the scale in my favor it would be awesome. Getting an interview invite this early would be a HUGE COUP for a candidate like me. How can I tell them they are a top 5 without sounding like bs? Maybe I should address some of my obvious flaws but I guess I shouldn't be defensive. Not a good look imo. Also, I have several reasons why I am a much better choice than candidates without gaps but talking about that also comes across as defensive and insecure.

Anywayzzzzzzz,..

tl;dr

1. Gaps are bad
2. I need luck
3. Supplemental questionnaire?
 
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Haha! I come back to this forum and MDT still cracking jokes! I do seriously want to chime in that you and OPD were absolutely correct about my gap being the BIGGEST issue with my application.

At this point in your mind you can say, "yup, told ya so!"

I absolutely feel that a felony would have to be worse than a gap but even worse would be someone stupid enough to HIDE a felony. Well, I hope that's worse than a gap! Can you imagine the selection committee?? "Well we obviously have to throw out this guy's app with a huge gap, but I found a solid group of felons we MUST inverview.."

A gap is worse than failing step one or almost any other red flag I can think of. You see there are just shy of 200 programs and I spent maybe 60+ hours researching everything about every program in America and gaps are VERY important.

I am from an amazing US allopathic school and have even passed step 3, but I have a TEN year gap.

I consider myself somewhat of a gap expert though. There are several types of gaps. Also, a gap to get a PHD or do anything related to medicine or education is not a real gap. There are basically 4 stances programs take and they state it very specifically and clearly in the requirements for applying.

1. We will essentially throw out your application if you have any gaps. This is rare and only super premium programs took this stance. I suspect programs in fields more competitive than pysch take this stance more frequently, but I think only maybe 10/192 psych programs took this stance.

2. We will essentially throw out your application if you have a gap of 3 yrs/5yrs/or 10yrs. I don't know why 3,5,and 10 are the magic cut off gap numbers but you see these 3 variants of no-gap requirements in approximately 110/192 programs!

3. As you can see I now can physically only apply to 62 programs. But there's another stance! "We are against gaps but we just did not mention it on our application requirements page!" Uh oh I wonder how many I have left now.

4. The fourth type is common but does not apply to me. If you are an IMG and have a gap we will throw out your application, but gap okay for AMG.

I basically found 60/192 programs which either say they do not care about a gap, or they would 'prefer' no gaps, OR they simply do not mention anything about gaps in the app requirements.

With everything working against me my school still decided to help me apply to match for this year in psychiatry even though it will be a long shot. And yes a gap will also follow you forever, but everything will follow you forever if you think about it.

Basically if I do not match this year I need to get some solid recent clinical experience and recent LORs and shoot for 2017. With recent clinical experience, I will likely be able to apply broader too.

The good news is I really feel the programs I selected are very strong with excellent training. They just do not have big IV league names, prestige, etc.

Out of 60 I eliminated 10 I felt were not that strong/good fits for me. It felt good just to eliminate SOME programs to be honest. Out of the remaining 50 I applied to my top 25 on Sept 30 and depending on feedback I will apply to 15-25 more Oct 30 or possibly November.

Out of 25 I have 2 rejections. Zero invites but trust me I am not a candidate who is likely to get many of the first October invite slots.

Basically, I need luck. Once again I find myself in a position where I need luck. This has happened to me so many times in life that I actually feel I am better at being lucky than others. People sometimes get upset cause they are like, "How freaking lucky can that guy get!? What a luckbox!" Like I have some magical power to be lucky. I am not luckier than any other person, I just am good at luck, but that doesn't make any sense I know. I guess I see it coming and can maximize it better? Also, if you think you are not lucky then you are not lucky. That doesn't make any sense either but it's true. Luck can actually be mathematically represented thru variance (SD2). Wow. Now I am off on a total tangent. I would never bring up luck as one of my strengths lol but I am good at it. Sorry. I know you are laughing right now too :) "Wait, is this guy really saying that he is good at luck?? What the f does that mean?? What an a-hole!" Yes, but a lucky a-hole.

If I'm interviewing, I already did it in other words. For example, I had what I would consider no chance of getting into medical school, so I only applied to one school as a goof, planning to reapply the following year, consider getting a stronger mcat score etc. I got in. That is just a very small example you would never believe how I actually made it through medical school. Okay, okay, enough magical thinking. I mean I can give a man a fish, but I can not teach you to fish in just one post.

HAHAHAHAHA. Forgive me. Some of my jokes and humor are for my own entertainment. I'm such a tool. I know. I know.


So I get this email at the end of last week... Sweet! Likely another rejection! Yes!! Awesome!! Yipee!! Oh cool the email is from one of my top picks which is a longshot! I'm glad I'm wrapping up my week with another rejection! Give me an R! Give me an E! Give me a J! Sooooweeeeee baaybeee!

So I open the email and it's not a rejection, but it's not an invite. They are very pleased to have received my application and could you please assist us in our difficult selection process by filling out this supplemental questionnaire? Rut Row. What are these questions gonna be?? There are only 3-4 questions and they are very simple except for one. I will do not want to post the questions, but a couple were basically how did ya find out about our program and the area our program is in etc.

The only difficult Q is why are you specifically a good fit for our program and why are we specifically a good fit for you?

The program is in my top 10 possibly top 5 out of the 50 I selected, but they do not know that.

I feel my answer could influence whether or not I receive an interview. I feel it should be 6 sentences long with 3 addressing each part of the 2 part question. I don't want to turn it into a PS2 but there is certainly enough space for much more than 6 sentences. I guess I just have to speak from the heart, and I've already made some good parallels in my head between the patient population at my medical school and their program, but I NEED this interview. Once in an interview setting that is my strength, and I will fare better than average. I need them to want to talk to me in person though.

I am honestly very flattered that this program is considering me. I need to let them know how interested I am, but I can't write that they are my top 5 because they will think I'm just writing that to get an interview. But it's true and I need to figure out a way to let that come across and the responses to the questionnaire need to be given by tomorrow morning.

I can't put too plain and typical responses like simply regurgitating positive qualities already mentioned on the program's website. Also, I can't think too far outside of the box or give 'shocking', 'grab your attention' answers. This is because my personal statement is already a "triple read phone a friend" meaning a PD who attempts to skim my 444 word PS will end up slowly reading it 2-3 times and then call a friend to say, "holy cow you are not gonna believe the PS that just landed on my desk!" The reason spliks 6 types of PS are so common is because coming straight out of medical school you almost have to fall into one of those 6 categories. But if you did something else for 10 years it's gonna be a lu lu.

Does anyone have any experience with these supp questionnaires? Anyone ever fill one out that led to an interview or a rejection? Does 6 sentences seem too short? Should I maybe write 2 paragraphs? I need to write a very honest, from the heart response but at the same time if there is ANYTHING I can write to tip the scale in my favor it would be awesome. Getting an interview invite this early would be a HUGE COUP for a candidate like me. How can I tell them they are a top 5 without sounding like bs? Maybe I should address some of my obvious flaws but I guess I shouldn't be defensive. Not a good look imo. Also, I have several reasons why I am a much better choice than candidates without gaps but talking about that also comes across as defensive and insecure.

Anywayzzzzzzz,..

tl;dr

1. Gaps are bad
2. I need luck
3. Supplemental questionnaire?

Can't tell if you are a manic patient or not.
 
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