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LOW VERBAL SCORE, Chance of Acceptance????!
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He is taking about exams. He is pointing that out in reference to that one person that got into ACOM with a VR of 3, who is doing fine currently.
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Hmm, I suppose. KCUMB from what I understand does claim that a 2.5 there is equal to a 3.5 somewhere else. Albeit somewhat confusing since the curve is towards a 80%?
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How are they able to gauge their grading vs. grading of other schools? Is it because some of their faculty were teaching previously at those mentioned schools?
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Dean Dubin said that a 2.9 at KCUMB would be like a 3.5 at some of the other schools.
Class average is curved up to an 85%.
95% of our exam questions are about a paragraph long clinical vignette. Some are taken right out of board review resources.
I have compared questions with students at other DO schools and theirs seem a bit more recalling facts or first order questions. Some are second order but not TOO hard.
What I'm trying to get at is that our MSK final was 4 hours long and had a bunch of clinical vignettes. If someone was only able to score a 22-23 on the MCAT then they are going to have a rough time with medical school exams.
This is true because when applying I was told that Touro screens the primary application heavily and so most people who receive the secondary application get an ii.
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OP, I am really sorry about your MCAT score. Don't listen to all these pretentious SDN idiots who are incapable of getting off of their high horse. The MCAT is an useless exam that has very little correlation to how a person will do in the boards. It is just another frustratingly cruel hoop designed by the people in power to weed people out and destroy their dreams of becoming a physician. That being said, there is no way around the MCAT if you want to stay in the US. Retake the MCAT, do reasonably well in it, and apply broadly to DO schools. I know that this is easier said than done. But I am currently in a similar situation. I just found out my score, and it is an abysmal 22 (8 PS, 7 VR, 7 BS). So, my application cycle will now be delayed by a few years because I now have to take Biochemistry, Psychology and Sociology so that I can take new MCAT. This cruel system and the people in power want you to give up on your dreams of becoming a physician. Don't let them do that.
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Sometimes I think you are a ADCOM who gets a cut of the application money by how optimistic you are about really low scores lol. I wanted to inject some reality into this thread for people thinking of applying with a 3.
Here is some statistics, not just "I know an anonymous internet person who knows a person" evidence:
The average Osteopathic matriculant VR score was (2013) = 8.72 with a standard deviation of 1.66. That means the person with a 3 in verbal was about 3.5 standard deviations below the mean score. After referring to a statistical table (sources at end) there is a 0.05% chance of matriculating into an osteopathic school with a 3 in VR. Since there were 6,135 matriculants, about 3 people got in with a VR score of 3 in 2013 (6,135 * .0005). Somehow it seems that everyone who got in with a 3 this year were in contact with user3 so he could tell all the hopeful applicants that there is a chance of multiple acceptances if they apply early and broadly.
PS. there is also a possibility that 1 person got into an MD school with a 3 in VR using the same statistics with their published values.
Sources:
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-COM-AMProfile.pdf?sfvrsn=22 (page 8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68–95–99.7_rule ("table of numerical values section")
I agree with this.
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http://www.internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon et al (2007) Acad Med.pdf
"Although the MCAT as a whole shows relatively consistent and good predictive validity findings for performance in both medical school and on licensing examinations, there was considerable variation on the four different subtests."
http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...rgraduate_institutional_mcat_scores_as.5.aspx
"Consistent with findings from previous studies, this study demonstrated that undergraduate science GPAs and MCAT scores are strong predictors of standardized test performances during medical school."
The MCAT is far from a "useless exam".
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My brother and one of my cousins just took the USMLE. They said that USMLE tests knowledge and asks questions that are directly relevant to what a student learns in the basic sciences. That is in stark contrast to the MCAT which asks extremely convoluted questions. The Physical Sciences and Verbal Reasoning sections of the MCAT also test medically irrelevant knowledge. For example, in my Physical Sciences section, there was a passage about solar flares and the earth's magnetic field. How is that relevant to medicine? Medicine is not astrophysics. They should use the Physics passages of the MCAT to hire NASA scientists instead of torturing premeds.
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It's not about the content. Medical schools are well aware that you won't need 99% of what you are taught in physics. And bad news, probably a lot of what is tested in the biochemistry portion of the new MCAT will also not be important to remember after the exam. But that doesn't make it a bad predictor of how someone will do in medical school and how well they will do on the boards. Half of the material tested on the ACT is irrelevant to 99% of college students, but it's still used as a standardized test by universities because it correlates with how well students perform in college level courses. That being said, correlation doesn't imply causation. Some people are just bad test takers and end up becoming phenomenal physicians, and more power to them. But I would be cautious when throwing around generalized statements without any evidence.
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AACOM needs to release a GPA/MCAT application success rate grid.
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Or COMs should start releasing that information like they do average GPA and MCAT.
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I think the new MCAT will be much more relevant to medicine with its emphasis on Biochemistry which is a very most important course in medical school. Also, the new MCAT will deemphasize Physics and Organic Chemistry.
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I think the new MCAT will be much more relevant to medicine with its emphasis on Biochemistry which is a very important course in medical school. Also, the new MCAT will de-emphasize Physics and Organic Chemistry which I assume is good news for future MCAT-takers such as myself.
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Depends on how it tests biochemistry. If it tests clinically relevant biochemistry, then yes. If it tests memorizing pathways, like my undergraduate biochemistry did (and that was the impression I got when I took the trial biochemistry section), then I think you'll find most of what you end up studying won't be necessary to remember as a physician. However, I hope that it does test clinically relevant biochemistry - that would at least make studying more enjoyable for the students preparing to take the test and potentially help prevent some burnout.
Also, if you talk to med students and doctors they will say that Biochemistry is the most useless course of medical school.
I agree that the MCAT isn't testing the knowledge you need to become a doctor, but it's also not intending to. It's intending to test your progress in undergrad, which is your pre-reqs. USMLEs will test your progress in med school, which will obviously be more clinically relevant.
It sounds more like you have a problem with the pre-req courses being irrelevant to the clinical practice of medicine. That's a legitimate gripe; other countries have 6-year medical schools that students enroll in directly after high school, rather than our 4 + 4 system. In those countries, unlike ours, all courses are focused on medicine.
But that's a different gripe than the MCAT testing pre-req material.
I agree that the MCAT isn't testing the knowledge you need to become a doctor, but it's also not intending to. It's intending to test your progress in undergrad, which is your pre-reqs. USMLEs will test your progress in med school, which will obviously be more clinically relevant.
It sounds more like you have a problem with the pre-req courses being irrelevant to the clinical practice of medicine. That's a legitimate gripe; other countries have 6-year medical schools that students enroll in directly after high school, rather than our 4 + 4 system. In those countries, unlike ours, all courses are focused on medicine.
But that's a different gripe than the MCAT testing pre-req material.
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Here's the reality. Either you accept the statistical application that those with low mcat scores will struggle more than those with high or you don't and it's retains its validity because opinion doesn't matter.
And again, a low mcat score should have two possible outcomes. Either it's a wake up call to start looking in other directions or it's a wake up call to reformat your entire approach to studying and develop medical school friendly capacities for logic and application. Honestly, had it just been one section I would consider it fine. But you pretty much failed it across the board. You weren't prepared for it, and chances are not prepared for medical school either.
And again, a low mcat score should have two possible outcomes. Either it's a wake up call to start looking in other directions or it's a wake up call to reformat your entire approach to studying and develop medical school friendly capacities for logic and application. Honestly, had it just been one section I would consider it fine. But you pretty much failed it across the board. You weren't prepared for it, and chances are not prepared for medical school either.
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ADCOMs aren't concerned that you don't understand electrochemistry, but the reason behind the deficiency. The MCAT is indeed convoluted and irrelevant to medicine, but the framework is essentially the same in every way. You learn material, you then study that material, develop a deep understanding, and apply it in timed testing format. The difference is that the MCAT is like baby formula and the COMLEX/USMLE is straight whiskey.
Like others have mentioned, there needs to be a system in place. I think it's a pretty accurate system.
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Accurate to a point. Whether we wan't to admit it or not, it's more difficult to derive difference between a 30 and 45 than between a 25 and a 28. Hence why the test is being remade.
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I am starting to wonder whether a good score in the MCAT is related to a person's intelligence (innate ability to think critically and solve problems) or just hard work (doing a lot of practice passages and taking a lot of practice tests).
I think it's probably related to both, to a certain extent, like most things are. Some people will be naturally gifted. Some will not have the natural gift, but will be able to work hard enough to do well. If you have neither the natural gift nor the ability to overcome it by working hard, that's when it starts to become concerning to adcoms.
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When I get to a position of power, I will make sure that medical schools are banned from requiring students to have a bachelor's degree. A person applying to medical school should only be required to take the necessary science pre-requisites, MCAT, and shadow a physician in a clinical setting. Requiring anything else, especially a bachelor's degree, is bull**** that only adds to unnecessary stress as well as an enormous waste of time, money and energy on medical school applicants.
I don't know about that. There are only a handful of pre-req classes, and what I got out of my undergrad is so, so much more than a few pre-reqs. Getting a bachelor's degree is supposed to make you a better thinker and learner, and that can't be accomplished with simply the pre-reqs. I think it's pretty beneficial for doctors to have those skills.
Going through the process myself, I can attest that it's long and arduous and seems unnecessarily difficult at times. But trying to put myself in the shoes of an adcom, I can appreciate how difficult their job is too. GPA and grades are the only metric they have of your long-term academic commitment. The MCAT is the only standardized metric than can help them interpret the GPA. ECs demonstrate what kind of person you are and what you're interested in.
Going through the process myself, I can attest that it's long and arduous and seems unnecessarily difficult at times. But trying to put myself in the shoes of an adcom, I can appreciate how difficult their job is too. GPA and grades are the only metric they have of your long-term academic commitment. The MCAT is the only standardized metric than can help them interpret the GPA. ECs demonstrate what kind of person you are and what you're interested in.
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A lot of is work. Others are acknowledgeable differences in capacity for logical processing. I.e inherently all standardized tests favor privileged takers because when it comes down to it they usually have been raised to think a way that is.... congruent to the logic being tested on these tests.
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That's why I said that shadowing a physician in a clinical setting for at least 200 hours should be a requirement to applying for medical school instead of a bachelor's degree. In my opinion, shadowing a physician in a clinical setting is far more relevant to a career in medicine than spending time, money and energy to a bachelor's degree which is most likely useless in the long run.
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Whether you want to admit it or not a bachelor's degree proves to medical schools that you're smart enough to graduate and pass boards. Merely shadowing a physician would do none of that. The reality is that not everyone is cut out to be a physician, and medical schools need some way of determining who is capable of succeeding.
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Yeah that seems to be Touro's SOP. I mean it better be seeing how that secondary cost me 200 when I filled it out
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No, how well a student does in the pre-requisite science courses and the MCAT are enough to predict a student's ability to succeed in medical school. Also, when I mean pre-requisite courses, they should start requiring the Biochemistry I & II just like they require Biology I & II, General Chemistry I & II, Organic Chemistry I & II and Physics I & II.
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And what about a student who took just those courses but only 1 or 2 at a time? It's a lot easier to get an A in Orgo if that's the only course you're taking. And some schools do require biochem I believe.
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Have you heard of premeds taking Organic Chemistry or Physics over the summer? When premeds are taking Organic Chemistry or Physics over the summer, they are not taking any other courses so that they can focus solely on that one class. Also, some premeds get a bachelor's degree in non-medically relevant fields like Art or Music or Political Science. Medical schools give far more importance to a student's science GPA over cumulative GPA anyway. Therefore, the bachelor's degree requirement can hardly be used to predict a student's success in medical school.
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For what it's worth at my undergrad we were told that medical schools don't like it when you take orgo or physics over the summer, and that they would like to see you handle a full course load. Only @Goro would know the answer to that question. A bachelor's degree also provides a way of making a physician well rounded.
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Yes. Just, yes.
A couple of my friends did this. They passed the class with flying colors, but didn't have high MCAT scores. One could argue summer classes are accelerated and thus more difficult. I would argue that a shorter timeframe reduces the average persons tendency to retain the information, and is probably why my friends did poorly on the MCAT. I could see the value of summer classes dependent upon the UG institution, and possibly overlooked by some ADCOMs. But personally, I chose 18 credit hour semesters over summer classes for the potential fallout. And because who the &^%* wants to spend their summer learning physics?
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Crappy fall/spring semester and crappy summer <<<<<<<< Hella-crappy fall/spring semester and happy, laid back summer
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If someone is incapable of handling 4 years (give or take) of undergraduate, there is a very slim chance that they will be able to handle the busier schedule of a medical student. It's not about taking Biology 101 and Chemistry 101, it's about taking them at the same time, while volunteering, and shadowing, and taking 12 other credits. Undergrad isn't just about taking classes, it's about living on your own for the first time (for most people) and demonstrating an ability to handle yourself professionally without having someone to guide you every step of the way.
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Anyone who can take orgo or physics over the summer and do well in them gets my vote of confidence. i signed up for a summer physics class, and on Day 1 after hearing about vectorial analysis, and not understanding anything, I immediately ran to the Registrar's office and bailed on the course!
Keep in mind that you have 8 other semesters to prove your worth as well.
Keep in mind that you have 8 other semesters to prove your worth as well.
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F#### me, Now that is just funny!!!!!
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I took Physics when I was a senior (Fall and Spring), and got a B and an A!
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Luv ya Goro!!! We need to go have a drink sometime!!
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The black cat has finally spoken !!!
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Very person dependent, while most people I know study a few weeks and score well(first group), many others need to study months and take courses (second group).
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Not usually. generally go to ACOFP or OMED
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Agreed. I've always had trouble reading on standardized exams. Never got over a 20 on the ACT reading the 4 times I took the exam... Got a 4 on my first verbal practice test, 6 on my first real take, then an 8 on my second. Aside from getting very lucky, the ceiling for some students is just higher from others, in large part due to how much you read throughout grade school/early undergrad (IMO).
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Not to mention, verbal itself seems quite variable. When i was doing my practice exams I was ranging between 11 and 13 on the physics and bio, and ranged between 10-13 on the verbal. When I took the real exam I scored within my range for physics and bio, but got an 8 in verbal reasoning...Aside from being a little tighter on time than I was in the practice exams everything seemed on par
. It just seems like a hard thing to nail down.
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I think the 2.5:3.5 ratio is a bit exaggerated, but Chizled did a good job of explaining the reasoning. Here's a little more food for thought on that one though. Dr. Dubin also made a statement to us that he expects the student that consistently score average (curved to 85) on our exams to hit around a 560 on level 1 (@chizledfrmstone, correct me if I'm wrong there). I would think that to be a pretty bold statement, but that's basically what happened at RVU and TCOM when he was there and those schools have consistently been 1 and 2 in the nation in terms of average level 1 scores. So I'd venture to guess that our curriculum and tests are a little more difficult than a lot of other med schools. Heck, I know a lot of people at our school who say their MD friends think our curriculum and testing is significantly harder than theirs.
I don't think anyone here has been on their high horse or pretentious about this situation. Nor do I think anyone is telling OP to give up. The reality though, as you stated, is that OP has a bad MCAT score with an atrocious verbal score that isn't going to give him a realistic shot anywhere. You're right about it being a cruel system though, but it has to be in order to weed out the people who aren't smart enough and hard-working enough to be a physician. This is one of the careers where it has to be this way because we are dealing with people's lives. The first day of orientation our dean told us that we were only his second highest priority and his highest priority is to our future patients. That stuck with me. No one wants to have someone who barely scrapes by and isn't qualified and knowledgable treating their family and loved ones.
The MCAT sucks, and you're right, a lot of the general knowledge involved with it won't be relevant in med school. What it's actually testing is your reasoning and problem-solving ability, which will not only be relevant for medical school, but for the rest of your career as a physician. From what I've heard boards are like a harder version of the MCAT, except instead of having questions pertaining to random irrelevant knowledge (solar flares and such), they contain much more medically relevant information. However, you'll still need need all of the same problem-solving and test taking skills you needed for the MCAT. That is why MCAT scores are relevant to admissions committees, not just to randomly crush people's dreams.
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@delawarepremed what system do you propose is better equipped to weed out ~18,000 applicants for ~5,000 seats?
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1. GPA in prerequisite courses that include General Chemistry I & II, Organic Chemistry I & II, Biochemistry I & II, Physics I & II, Introduction to Psychology, and Introduction to Sociology. 2. MCAT 3. Shadowing a physician for at least 200 hours
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So basically you just want to make it easier to get into medical school...
You have to understand that there are reasons why standardize tests exists. There is no way to tell if the Organic Chemistry class at one college is harder than another college. Some colleges have grade inflation and some colleges have a grade deflation. The MCAT serves as an equalizer to all students across the nation. Why do you think residency directors care so much about USMLE/COMLEX scores more than anything else? It's because how do you compare my grades at one school to the grades at another school.
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I never said to get rid of MCAT. All I said was to get rid of the bachelor's degree requirement that forces people to take unnecessary courses like gen eds. Besides the MCAT, performance in the prerequisite courses that I have mentioned are enough to let an adcom predict an applicant's success in medical school.
