Loyola Anesthesiology Probation

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TIVA23

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Hello everyone,

I am currently applying to Anesthesiology and would like to stay in the Chicago area. I have applied to Loyola anesthesiology but I saw that they are currently on ACGME probation. Can anyone provide me with information as to why they are on probation and what is being done to correct the issue?

Thank you very much

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How do you find out what schools are on probation?

I googled " anesthesiology programs on probation" and it took my to the ACGME page where I was able to search. Loyola was the only program that came up for anesthesiology on probation.
 
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From a relatively long-term and established member of SDN:

"I'm a resident at Loyola and yes we are on probation. I'm a long time poster here, but I had Arch post this for me because I'd prefer to keep my anonymity. I think it's better than someone creating an account with one post and not having any legitimacy, but who knows.

The reason we were put on probation was "service over education". Mainly that related to relief of CRNAs and a poor educational curriculum. We never broke duty hours, but there were a lot of times where you'd wait around to relieve a CRNA at 5. In addition, the quality of our lectures wasn't great and you were often pressured to go set up your room rather than attend. The atmosphere is excellent here and the department is well-respected around the hospital. There were no malignancy concerns that led to the probation.

Although we were in fact put on probation, that's actually led to some good changes here. They got rid of the CRNA relief thing and so you no longer have to sit around and wait if you are not on-call. They've also hired more attendings and CRNAs in an effort to further smoothen out the schedule.

In addition, they've added an hour on Wednesday's for educational activity which is protected and you get a late start or your attending starts your case. They've also changed who is in charge of the curriculum and they're revamping the entire lecture series, with more of a focus on ITE and written board prep. So now we have a Critical Care lecture on Monday mornings (optional attendance), Oral board prep Wednesday morning (also optional), class lecture on one of the other days (they changed it where you usually get a late start now) and the Wednesday lecture.

Overall, I know we're on probation but I don't regret coming here one bit and it appears to have motivated the department heads to make significant changes. I ranked Loyola #1 and I would come back here again if given the chance. The pathology that you'll see here is excellent and most residents meet their numbers by the end of CA-2 year. CV surgery is really big here and you get experience with all sorts of hearts. Plus we're a Level 1 trauma center and a major transplant center so you'll get more than enough exposure to large cases. You also do an entire month of blocks and you can get upwards of 200 blocks easily. Didactics and education need improvement, but hopefully those changes will kick in.

Honestly, if you want a program where you're going to be clinically sound and able to do any sort of case, then Loyola will give you that. You're going to have to do some reading on your own, but I knew that coming in and preferred to go to a place that gave me the ability to deal with anything since I know I have the ability to self-study.

If anybody has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask."
 
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I know of many other programs who could have fallen into this same sort of thing, including my own (not sure of the severity of our program vs Loyola). This might be a warning shot to programs to get the service over education thing under control.

Good to see they've addressed it and are moving forward with positive changes. Thanks for posting Arch.
 
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Being a graduate of lumc and knowing many of the attending who currently work there, I agree 100% with the anonymous post by arch.
 
Thank you very much for your sincere comments on the program. Its great to see there have already been changes that have improved the residency program. Does anyone know how significant a risk it would be to start residency in a program on probation? in other words, although its highly unlikely, what would happen to the residents if the program did not overcome its probation status?
 
Does probation generally make programs significantly less competitive?
 
Thank you very much for your sincere comments on the program. Its great to see there have already been changes that have improved the residency program. Does anyone know how significant a risk it would be to start residency in a program on probation? in other words, although its highly unlikely, what would happen to the residents if the program did not overcome its probation status?

This is absolutely fair game to talk to the current residents, attendings and PD about during the interview because this is absolutely an issue that needs to be addressed. Honestly it'll probably be brought up during the initial welcome presentation - part of having an ACGME violation (most programs have several, most don't lead to probation) is that you have to respond with an action plan pretty quickly. I do not know if the ACGME has gradations of just how noncompliant a program is - like say probation vs continued warning vs conditional reaccreditation.

The looming threat from the ACGME is they have the ability to revoke accreditation for residency programs. It is absolutely rare, but does happen - a number of years ago the anesthesia program in Tampa was shut down. More recently, a FM program outside of Boston and a general surgery program in Daytona Beach (http://www.news-journalonline.com/n...urgery-residency-program-losing-accreditation) was shut down. I am more familiar to the Daytona Beach situation since our hospital took a couple of the "refugee residents." In that situation,the program allowed the seniors to graduate and the GME office worked to place the residents at other training programs - they were scattered across around Florida and probably surrounding states which I'm sure was super disruptive to home life, but at least they are still on track to graduate GS. I suspect the same was true when the Tampa program shut down.

Does probation generally make programs significantly less competitive?

Probably, but it's hard to say by how much. At some point programs won't be interested in applicants with very low stats since eventually board exams will need to be passed - there are enough ex pats from other fields (primarily surgery) to keep interest up, or internal candidates like surgical prelims who don't have many other options otherwise.
 
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Thank you very much anonymous poster. Your input was very helpful!!!
 
I am a current resident at Loyola as well, and I agree with the above post. Have seen very positive changes made, have had only positive interaction with leadership. Would still rank Loyola #1 if I had to do it over. Feel free to PM me with any questions.
 
I know of many other programs who could have fallen into this same sort of thing, including my own (not sure of the severity of our program vs Loyola). This might be a warning shot to programs to get the service over education thing under control.

I really appreciate the anonymous poster that said something. its easily the most credible post about that program.

But i feel like something is missing. Everything they quoted sounds bad, but what he described is an everyday occurrence at my institution. Hell, "Service over education" is like our motto here. Some of our CRNAs make more money than attendings and work less hours. Literally everything described can be said about my program,but we are in no danger of being on probation....

There is something missing in this story from what i'm reading..... wonder if the previous reg would contribute some more info.
 
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I really appreciate the anonymous poster that said something. its easily the most credible post about that program.

But i feel like something is missing. Everything they quoted sounds bad, but what he described is an everyday occurrence at my institution. Hell, "Service over education" is like our motto here. Some of our CRNAs make more money than attendings and work less hours. Literally everything described can be said about my program,but we are in no danger of being on probation....

There is something missing in this story from what i'm reading..... wonder if the previous reg would contribute some more info.
The main way a program gets put on probation is if the residents sink it in their yearly ACGME questionnaire. ;)

And, trust me, the program cares when they go on probation. It's the only way to "educate" the department leaders.

I would almost argue that a program on probation will offer better education than one which is not.
 
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The main way a program gets put on probation is if the residents sink it in their yearly ACGME questionnaire. ;)

And, trust me, the program cares when they go on probation. It's the only way to "educate" the department leaders.

I would almost argue that a program on probation will offer better education than one which is not.

And thus, our annual residency meeting with the PD and chair, coincidentally right before the surveys went out with light coaching on how to answer that thing. I don't think I ever filled out a survey because giving the answers I wanted to could have painted it in a bad light, and I didn't want to graduate a program stigmatized for being on probation.
 
And thus, our annual residency meeting with the PD and chair, coincidentally right before the surveys went out with light coaching on how to answer that thing. I don't think I ever filled out a survey because giving the answers I wanted to could have painted it in a bad light, and I didn't want to graduate a program stigmatized for being on probation.
Employers are not stupid. Even if the program is not on probation with the ACGME, you can bet that it is with the smart regional employers who have insider contacts, or recent grads.
 
Employers are not stupid. Even if the program is not on probation with the ACGME, you can bet that it is with the smart regional employers who have insider contacts, or recent grads.

I was referring to residency working conditions. I doubt employers care about that in the same sense the ACGME does. But ACGME probation would look bad no matter what the underlying cause.
 
Ok, FFP hit it on the head, disgruntled former group of residents sunk the department in an ACGME survey which put them on probation and forced changes. At the end of the day, it's still a more work over education program but I have no regrets about graduating from there. Especially after going to a big academic "Top 10" program and seeing that the Loyola residents can run laps around the residents here in the OR. Primarily because we were actually taking care of patients as opposed to being hand-held by an attending or spending days at lecture.

Just know you'll probably score lower on your ITE.
 
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