Lying About Race

[Goro]

One can simply ask them a question in Spanish, or find about out their involvement in the Hispanic community. We have other questions as well, but I'm not going to tip my hand.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but what does looks have to do with determining whether the applicant lied or not? I have met plenty of 100% Hispanic and/or Puerto Rican people that could easily pass for Italian or European. Hell, one of my interviewers this year was born in Cuba and I would have sworn they were from Spain or Portugal. I really hope adcoms aren't just looking at someone and determining that the person is lying without first asking for clarification.

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[Godspeedyou]

I'm ambiguously mixed and not accepted by people of either of my two races. Can I leave the boxes blank?

 

[mimelim]

#1 If you get caught lying on your application, you will not be accepted.
#2 People are more transparent than they think. It is rather hard to hide race/ethnicity.
#3 Every season people lie to adcoms and get accepted to medical school.
#4 Every season, even more people lie to adcoms and get rejected either from all their schools or better schools.
#5 Every season that I have been involved in application reading, I have seen this happen. And, no, it will never change.

 

[EasternMer]

#1 If you get caught lying on your application, you will not be accepted.
#2 People are more transparent than they think. It is rather hard to hide race/ethnicity.
#3 Every season people lie to adcoms and get accepted to medical school.
#4 Every season, even more people lie to adcoms and get rejected either from all their schools or better schools.
#5 Every season that I have been involved in application reading, I have seen this happen. And, no, it will never change.

Anecdote: Girl in Chemistry Lecture when I was a sophomore told me an outlandish story about a "friend" of hers that said she was Hispanic on Med Apps but she was actually South Asian. (Note, when people relate unethical stories about "friends" I've found it's most likely their own unethical fantasies that they're trying on other people to see how outlandish or egregious they might be). Anyways, story went on that she got like a million II's and accepted at Duke even though her MCAT was in the high 20's. Lies. Lies. Lies. Just because she's Hispanic, she's not going to get a bunch of II's if her MCAT is so low.

Anyways, the whole idea is stupid. Adcoms aren't dumb. They can see where you were born, and probably where your parents were born too. So like, an Indian girl literally cannot pull off a Hispanic background. Just like a white girl, or an asian girl, or a whoever girl can't either.

Lies are lies are lies are lies. Simple as that. I'd personally be ashamed if I got admitted on the fact that I lied about my ethnicity. Even if it realistically never came into play, I'd always think that was the reason. And then...your whole life kind of turns into a lie.

Job Fraud = NO.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm ambiguously mixed and not accepted by people of either of my two races. Can I leave the boxes blank?

There is a prefer not to answer option.

 

[johnnytest]

Never really occurred to me until now but at the interviews I had, I received questions regarding my ethnic background. To me they seemed like normal conversational questions but perhaps they were trying to determine if I really identified with the race I said I am. I'm not URM though.

 

[touchpause13]

Never really occurred to me until now but at the interviews I had, I received questions regarding my ethnic background. To me they seemed like normal conversational questions but perhaps they were trying to determine if I really identified with the race I said I am. I'm not URM though.

No Patrick, mayonnaise is not an instrument

 

[j4pac]

It's shameful that programs want to know your race. They wouldn't ask if it didn't matter. I long for the day that applicants will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their application package.

 

[touchpause13]

It's shameful that programs want to know your race. They wouldn't ask if it didn't matter. I long for the day that applicants will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their application package.

Are you serious right now?

 

[j4pac]

Are you serious right now?

How did I know that you were the one that would pipe up? You are always the first here to clarify how if a person isn't an extreme liberal they are an ignorant bigot. Get lost.

I don't believe in discrimination...I believe that the best applicant should get the job...whether the person is white, black, Asian, etc. I believe that is what Martin Luther King, Jr would have endorsed. I'm I wrong?

I remember my med school class had five "African-Americans"...three were from the Caribbean, one was actually from Africa, the last was a black American. Meanwhile my class had three Hispanics.

How is that for diversity? I can see the benefit of diversity...but when all of the non-whites are Indian or Jamaican...then is that the type of diversity that would be benefiting our country? I don't believe in diversity for the sake of diversity...make it practical. How about actual non-whites who are Mexican-American, Cuban-American, or Black-Americans? You know...the races that are common in our country, and are under-represented in medicine?

It's almost like admission committees are looking at a persons color...checking a box...and saying "close enough".

Do you think that a Hispanic patient would be able to relate to an Indian or Jamaican physican? Or how about a black patient seeing an African physician?

 

[touchpause13]

How did I know that you were the one that would pipe up? You are always the first here to clarify how if a person isn't an extreme liberal they are an ignorant bigot. Get lost.

I don't believe in discrimination...I believe that the best applicant should get the job...whether the person is white, black, Asian, etc. I believe that is what Martin Luther King, Jr would have endorsed. I'm I wrong?

I remember my med school class had five "African-Americans"...three were from the Caribbean, one was actually from Africa, the last was a black American. Meanwhile my class had three Hispanics.

How is that for diversity? I can see the benefit of diversity...but when all of the non-whites are Indian or Jamaican...then is that the type of diversity that would be benefiting our country? I don't believe in diversity for the sake of diversity...make it practical. How about actual non-whites who are Mexican-American, Cuban-American, or Black-Americans? You know...the races that are common in our country, and are under-represented in medicine?

It's almost like admission committees are looking at a persons color...checking a box...and saying "close enough".

Do you think that a Hispanic patient would be able to relate to an Indian or Jamaican physican? Or how about a black patient seeing an African physician?

You don't have to be rude.
I think that medical school admissions are different from job applications, and that when considering applicants adcoms should take into account the entire individual and what they bring to the table. Maybe they have an amazing MCAT, maybe they have some unique non-trad experience, maybe they are very passionate about rural healthcare, maybe they have shown an ongoing community to a minority community that they have been a part of. These are all things that are and should be considered.
I don't really know what goes into why an admissions committee chose a particular student. But @LizzyM and @Goro certainly don't make it seem like there is a lot of box checking going on.

I think again Hispanic is getting confused as a race, it's not. I think it's interesting that you do think that under-represetation in medicine should be addressed, but I believe what you are proposing is completely race blind admissions which we know would result in even LESS black and latino/a physicians.

 

[mimelim]

It's shameful that programs want to know your race. They wouldn't ask if it didn't matter. I long for the day that applicants will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their application package.

How did I know that you were the one that would pipe up? You are always the first here to clarify how if a person isn't an extreme liberal they are an ignorant bigot. Get lost.

I don't believe in discrimination...I believe that the best applicant should get the job...whether the person is white, black, Asian, etc. I believe that is what Martin Luther King, Jr would have endorsed. I'm I wrong?

I remember my med school class had five "African-Americans"...three were from the Caribbean, one was actually from Africa, the last was a black American. Meanwhile my class had three Hispanics.

How is that for diversity? I can see the benefit of diversity...but when all of the non-whites are Indian or Jamaican...then is that the type of diversity that would be benefiting our country? I don't believe in diversity for the sake of diversity...make it practical. How about actual non-whites who are Mexican-American, Cuban-American, or Black-Americans? You know...the races that are common in our country, and are under-represented in medicine?

It's almost like admission committees are looking at a persons color...checking a box...and saying "close enough".

Do you think that a Hispanic patient would be able to relate to an Indian or Jamaican physican? Or how about a black patient seeing an African physician?

There is a lot of information on an application that isn't directly tied to whether or not someone gets in, particularly in the demographics section. Where people are from, gender, parent information, etc. That doesn't mean that it necessarily comes into play. Medical school admissions is not about rewarding the best academic applicant with a seat in a medical school class. It is about building the best possible class of students each year. There are a lot of missions/aims of medical schools, but at their core, schools are trying to produce a strong group of physicians that will serve the community and the school.

People are inherently afraid of things that are either unfamiliar or different from them, ie. 'we're all a little bit racist'. And yes, we do still have a major race problem in this country. An applicant may actually more valuable simply because of their skin tone to a community that would prefer to see someone 'similar' to them. Should things be that way? Of course not. Nobody that has thought about race relations for a few minutes thinks that it should be. But, it is the reality in this and every other country. Nobody here believes in diversity for the sake of diversity (although, there might be, so pipe up if you do).

At the end of the day, you have some decent examples of people who skirted the system. Maybe your admissions committee was bad at their jobs? Or maybe they had few if any options? Or maybe they don't care about this issue (like you) and said to themselves, "oh well, it doesn't really matter, diversity is bull****, we'll just take these guys, they look close enough to what the government is making us do." Certainly through 5 application seasons and being exposed to several medical schools, I have seen similar examples to the ones that you give, but they are by far the minority.

For the record, I'm on the conservative/rightward leaning side. Fundamentally, when people talk about "discrimination" in medical school admissions they are coming from a sense of academic entitlement. While I think that a lot of our public policy regarding race is misguided or ineffective, it is far less destructive than the "entitlement" generation.

 

[j4pac]

You don't have to be rude.
I think that medical school admissions are different from job applications, and that when considering applicants adcoms should take into account the entire individual and what they bring to the table. Maybe they have an amazing MCAT, maybe they have some unique non-trad experience, maybe they are very passionate about rural healthcare, maybe they have shown an ongoing community to a minority community that they have been a part of. These are all things that are and should be considered.
I don't really know what goes into why an admissions committee chose a particular student. But @LizzyM and @Goro certainly don't make it seem like there is a lot of box checking going on.

I think again Hispanic is getting confused as a race, it's not. I think it's interesting that you do think that under-represetation in medicine should be addressed, but I believe what you are proposing is completely race blind admissions which we know would result in even LESS black and latino/a physicians.

I am glad we can discuss this with some civility. It usually turns into a "you're a bigot" name calling game...which is annoying and counterproductive. I didn't mean to be rood...just trying to stay ahead of that BS.

I believe that we should have competent physicians who are not killing people. That is what our patients deserve. You can only lower the bar so far. If the candidate is a great applicant and also happens to be black or Hispanic...then GREAT! But the bar should not be lowered for anyone...medicine is a high stakes field.

And if the bar is lowered...then it better be for someone who will be truly a under-represented applicant and those are Black-Americans and Hispanic-Americans. Not Africans nor folks from the Caribbean. Just my opinion.

 

[j4pac]

There is a lot of information on an application that isn't directly tied to whether or not someone gets in, particularly in the demographics section. Where people are from, gender, parent information, etc. That doesn't mean that it necessarily comes into play. Medical school admissions is not about rewarding the best academic applicant with a seat in a medical school class. It is about building the best possible class of students each year. There are a lot of missions/aims of medical schools, but at their core, schools are trying to produce a strong group of physicians that will serve the community and the school.

People are inherently afraid of things that are either unfamiliar or different from them, ie. 'we're all a little bit racist'. And yes, we do still have a major race problem in this country. An applicant may actually more valuable simply because of their skin tone to a community that would prefer to see someone 'similar' to them. Should things be that way? Of course not. Nobody that has thought about race relations for a few minutes thinks that it should be. But, it is the reality in this and every other country. Nobody here believes in diversity for the sake of diversity (although, there might be, so pipe up if you do).

At the end of the day, you have some decent examples of people who skirted the system. Maybe your admissions committee was bad at their jobs? Or maybe they had few if any options? Or maybe they don't care about this issue (like you) and said to themselves, "oh well, it doesn't really matter, diversity is bull****, we'll just take these guys, they look close enough to what the government is making us do." Certainly through 5 application seasons and being exposed to several medical schools, I have seen similar examples to the ones that you give, but they are by far the minority.

For the record, I'm on the conservative/rightward leaning side. Fundamentally, when people talk about "discrimination" in medical school admissions they are coming from a sense of academic entitlement. While I think that a lot of our public policy regarding race is misguided or ineffective, it is far less destructive than the "entitlement" generation.

I personally refuse to answer race demographic questions. It is nobodies business...and nobody would ask unless it would be used to discriminate. They may not discriminate against me...but they may use that information to discriminate in the future. Again...if it wasn't going to be used to discriminate against people...it wouldn't be asked.

I believe that discrimination is bad...and that's whether to discriminate any race of people. I really wish we would move away from it like many other civilized societies.

The US Census is running into a problem...more and more people are selecting "Unknown" as their race. In response...the Census is expanding their list of race options to select from. They are so disconnected to realize that more people are unwilling to share their race out of fear of discrimination. That is the direction that our country is heading. We are becoming more divided and our government is too stupid to realize it.

Can you please elaborate on "For the record, I'm on the conservative/rightward leaning side. Fundamentally, when people talk about "discrimination" in medical school admissions they are coming from a sense of academic entitlement. While I think that a lot of our public policy regarding race is misguided or ineffective, it is far less destructive than the "entitlement" generation."?

 

[touchpause13]

I am glad we can discuss this with some civility. It usually turns into a "you're a bigot" name calling game...which is annoying and counterproductive. I didn't mean to be rood...just trying to stay ahead of that BS.

I believe that we should have competent physicians who are not killing people. That is what our patients deserve. You can only lower the bar so far. If the candidate is a great applicant and also happens to be black or Hispanic...then GREAT! But the bar should not be lowered for anyone...medicine is a high stakes field.

And if the bar is lowered...then it better be for someone who will be truly a under-represented applicant and those are Black-Americans and Hispanic-Americans. Not Africans nor folks from the Caribbean. Just my opinion.

I don't think the bar is actually being considerably lowered though. It's been stated before that you only really need about a 25 MCAT/3.5 gpa to succeed in medical school. Shoot I know someone who got a 24 who is one of the top people in my class grades-wise. I don't think that there are schools in the US who are producing incompetent physicians because of URMs.

I do agree that there should be more focus on applicants who are black or latina/o rather than emigrants from say Africa or the Philippines.

And for the record I try not to call people bigots until they start throwing out slurs.

 

[touchpause13]

I personally refuse to answer race demographic questions. It is nobodies business...and nobody would ask unless it would be used to discriminate. They may not discriminate against me...but they may use that information to discriminate in the future. Again...if it wasn't going to be used to discriminate against people...it wouldn't be asked.

I believe that discrimination is bad...and that's whether to discriminate any race of people. I really wish we would move away from it like many other civilized societies.

The US Census is running into a problem...more and more people are selecting "Unknown" as their race. In response...the Census is expanding their list of race options to select from. They are so disconnected to realize that more people are unwilling to share their race out of fear of discrimination. That is the direction that our country is heading. We are becoming more divided and our government is too stupid to realize it.

Do you have any evidence of this? I think it has more to do with the fact that you didn't used to be able to check that you were bi or multiracial.

 

[LizzyM]

If an immigrant from the Caribbean or Africa has a 3.7/37, I'm not going to care about the color of his skin, I'm going to get him here for an interview! Would anyone object? Ditto for the African-American from a wealthy family. Problem?

 

[j4pac]

Do you have any evidence of this? I think it has more to do with the fact that you didn't used to be able to check that you were bi or multiracial.

You could be right...of course there are no statistics to support either claim. I think that there is probably some truth in regards to both statements.

 

[j4pac]

If an immigrant from the Caribbean or Africa has a 3.7/37, I'm not going to care about the color of his skin, I'm going to get him here for an interview! Would anyone object? Ditto for the African-American from a wealthy family. Problem?

I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. It is more about the MD applicant with a 3.5, 25...who should be accepted...an African or African-American? I think that this one is a no brainer.

Wealth disparities are also a HUGE issue in medicine. But there's nobody lobbying for the poor in our country...so nobody cares.

 

[SkipJunior]

It's shameful that programs want to know your race. They wouldn't ask if it didn't matter. I long for the day that applicants will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their application package.

Oh come on, I started this thread by stating that I didn't want this thread to turn into an anti-URM debate.

I understand and respect your point but the medical schools have their reasons. Truth is that certain groups are underrepresented in medicine and graduating more physicians from those groups may lead to increased healthcare access to those groups who may feel more comfortable dealing with physicians from a similar cultural and ethnic background.

That being said, I disagree with the current admissions policy of medical schools. I think admissions should not consider race as a factor. If an applicant grew up in a impoverished household, they should apply as disadvantaged and write the disadvantaged essay. Adcoms should give some leniency with regards to MCAT and GPA cut-offs for disadvantaged applicants.

Instead, medical school diversity officers should go to predominantly black/hispanic/native american regions and promote medicine as a career to the community. Give presentations and hand out leaflets at high schools, community colleges, and universities in the region.

 

[j4pac]

Oh come on, I started this thread by stating that I didn't want this thread to turn into an anti-URM debate.

I understand and respect your point but the medical schools have their reasons. Truth is that certain groups are underrepresented in medicine and graduating more physicians from those groups may lead to increased healthcare access to those groups who may feel more comfortable dealing with physicians from a similar cultural and ethnic background.

That being said, I disagree with the current admissions policy of medical schools. I think admissions should not consider race as a factor. If an applicant grew up in a impoverished household, they should apply as disadvantaged and write the disadvantaged essay. Adcoms should give some leniency with regards to MCAT and GPA cut-offs for disadvantaged applicants.

Instead, medical school diversity officers should go to predominantly black/hispanic/native american regions and promote medicine as a career to the community. Give presentations and hand out leaflets at high schools, community colleges, and universities in the region.

Roger that, I'll discontinue the discussion.

 

[SkipJunior]

How did I know that you were the one that would pipe up? You are always the first here to clarify how if a person isn't an extreme liberal they are an ignorant bigot. Get lost.

I don't believe in discrimination...I believe that the best applicant should get the job...whether the person is white, black, Asian, etc. I believe that is what Martin Luther King, Jr would have endorsed. I'm I wrong?

I remember my med school class had five "African-Americans"...three were from the Caribbean, one was actually from Africa, the last was a black American. Meanwhile my class had three Hispanics.

How is that for diversity? I can see the benefit of diversity...but when all of the non-whites are Indian or Jamaican...then is that the type of diversity that would be benefiting our country? I don't believe in diversity for the sake of diversity...make it practical. How about actual non-whites who are Mexican-American, Cuban-American, or Black-Americans? You know...the races that are common in our country, and are under-represented in medicine?

It's almost like admission committees are looking at a persons color...checking a box...and saying "close enough".

Do you think that a Hispanic patient would be able to relate to an Indian or Jamaican physican? Or how about a black patient seeing an African physician?

I do agree that adcoms may pick an applicant for "diversity purposes" even if the applicant doesn't have much of a connection with URM communities in the USA. For example , picking African or Jamaican applicants.

Also, just to clarify, Indians are not considered to be URM. In fact, they are considered to be Asian and are a ORM group. Plenty of Indian American applicants apply to medical school every year (mainly because there's a strong focus on education in the Indian American community and Indian American parents encourage their children to pursue higher education and become professionals) and the ones who are accepted are accepted because of their academic and extracurricular accomplishments, not their race.

 

[touchpause13]

Roger that, I'll discontinue the discussion.

Please don't.
I'm enjoying being able to talk about this without insults flying.

 

[j4pac]

Please don't.
I'm enjoying being able to talk about this without insults flying.

The OP asked us to stop...so i will. Another time in another place.

 

[IlDestriero]

I tan pretty well. I totally could have been the 6'2" 225# European featured "Spanish" guy. A little dark hair coloring to hide the natural blond highlights and nobody would know. I should have claimed economic hardship as well because almost no Adcom members would recognize a Zegna suit and Lobbs anyway.
Go for it man. I could have scored a free ride to Penn!

 

[SkipJunior]

I tan pretty well. I totally could have been the 6'2" 225# European featured "Spanish" guy. A little dark hair coloring to hide the natural blond highlights and nobody would know. I should have claimed economic hardship as well because almost no Adcom members would recognize a Zegna suit and Lobbs anyway.
Go for it man. I could have scored a free ride to Penn!

but will you be able to live with yourself afterwards?

 

[EasternMer]

I think the whole program is ludicrous. Since when are minority groups catering to their populations? I'd bet at least 75% of minority students that get into Medical School shoot for ROAD specialties, to escape the financial instability that is indicative of most of their society.

I think it's dumb to assume that we're creating some noble workforce, when about 4 in every 5 premeds will tell you they're interested in Dermatology. No one is as noble as this whole process thinks they are.

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

I think the whole program is ludicrous. Since when are minority groups catering to their populations? I'd bet at least 75% of minority students that get into Medical School shoot for ROAD specialties, to escape the financial instability that is indicative of most of their society.

I think it's dumb to assume that we're creating some noble workforce, when about 4 in every 5 premeds will tell you they're interested in Dermatology. No one is as noble as this whole process thinks they are.

You'd bet? Would you like to back that up with some data?

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1792913
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739029/

And yeah... taking on 200k+ in loans for a career that delays fair compensation is a great way to escape the financial instability of "their society."

Who cares what premeds or medical students think they want to do? The only thing that matters is what they do what they start practicing.

 

[EasternMer]

Oh c'mon. Underserved areas are also largely socioeconomically depressed.

If they are given preferential admissions, they should have to sign some paper that says they intend on working in Underserved communities. To assume that is a waste of time.

You'd bet? Would you like to back that up with some data?

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1792913
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739029/

And yeah... taking on 200k+ in loans for a career that delays fair compensation is a great way to escape the financial instability of "their society."

 

[EasternMer]

You'd bet? Would you like to back that up with some data?

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1792913
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739029/

And yeah... taking on 200k+ in loans for a career that delays fair compensation is a great way to escape the financial instability of "their society."

Surprise Surprise, you're a URM. I'm not looking to start an SDN spat, that's just my honest opinion. Don't want this thread getting closed down like all the others.

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

Surprise Surprise, you're a URM. I'm not looking to start an SDN spat, that's just my honest opinion. Don't want this thread getting closed down like all the others.

You've figured me out. My race has rendered my citing of actual data on the topic we're discussing useless. Your opinion is more valid.

Oh yeah, and there's also no need for diversity in places other than primary care because minorities don't have health problems that are best taken care of by specialists. Their preference for non-white doctors is not a real thing that affects their willingness to see a physician in the first place, nor does it affect their compliance.

But what do I know? I'm just a leecherous URM milking the system.

 

[EasternMer]

You've figured me out. My race has rendered my citing of actual data on the topic we're discussing useless. Your opinion is more valid.

Oh yeah, and there's also no need for diversity in places other than primary care because minorities don't have health problems that are best taken care of by specialists. Their preference for non-white doctors is not a real thing that affects their willingness to see a physician in the first place, nor does it affect their compliance.

But what do I know? I'm just a leecherous URM milking the system.

Don't take things so personally. URMs do a great deal of good to the communities they serve. You're sitting at an advantage, enjoy it. In the end, what is, is. I'm not a URM, I'll have to get in how people of my race get in, have scores that are similar to theirs. I don't believe in that, but there's not much one can do.

Best of luck in medical school. I didn't say or insinuate half the things you said, nor did I say that URMs are undeserving. So...see ya!

 

[gjitec]

You're sitting at an advantage, enjoy it. In the end, what is, is. I'm not a URM, I'll have to get in how people of my race get in, have scores that are similar to theirs. I don't believe in that, but there's not much one can do.

Best of luck in medical school. I didn't say or insinuate half the things you said, nor did I say that URMs are undeserving. So...see ya!

Well said sir.

We ORMs can stand up for ourselves too, without any anxiety about sounding inconsiderate. This 'guilt tripping' stuff is so unproductive.

----

Aren't there medical schools that accept majority URM? Howard, etc? That's not considered "wrong."

I think the real issue is if a school only accepted majority ORMs, as a principle. Is that considered """""racist?""""

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

Don't take things so personally. URMs do a great deal of good to the communities they serve. You're sitting at an advantage, enjoy it. In the end, what is, is. I'm not a URM, I'll have to get in how people of my race get in, have scores that are similar to theirs. I don't believe in that, but there's not much one can do.

Best of luck in medical school. I didn't say or insinuate half the things you said, nor did I say that URMs are undeserving. So...see ya!

What an inane way to exit a conversation that started from a baseless claim that, even if true, has no bearing on the actual practice of medicine by minority physicians. Instead of actually addressing my genuine curiosity as to why you made that statement (as well as the data that backs the counterclaim), you went ad hominem and tried to discredit me by saying that I am a URM.

People with lower stats have them for various reasons and many find success in spite of their numbers. When that happens to a minority student it gets turned into a broad statement about how unfair or ludicrous affirmative action is instead of a normal "underdog" story. The digs at who I must be are subtle and there's no other way to take them than personal. The part I bolded was the most ridiculous line you spat out, since if I you didn't reduce my MDApps page to "African" you'd see that I've invested an extra year of risky medical school coursework after postbacc to "get in how people of [your] race get in." So, unfortunately, I don't accept your backhanded well-wishes for my success in medical school... see ya!

 

[LA1004]

So can you only pick one ethicity/race or can you mix and match/select all? My children have a great grandmother who was a native South American Indian, three German Great-Grandparents, one Scottish Great-Grampa, one Nisei Great Grandparent (Nisei - son of Japanise born in Brazil), and two Mulatos Great Grandparents (Mulato - mixed white and black ethnicity). That covers nearly every demografic out there except Aboriginal Australian.

Is race really that big of a deal to people in the US when selecting a candidate for jobs/school?

 

[EasternMer]

What an inane way to exit a conversation that started from a baseless claim that, even if true, has no bearing on the actual practice of medicine by minority physicians. Instead of actually addressing my genuine curiosity as to why you made that statement (as well as the data that backs the counterclaim), you went ad hominem and tried to discredit me by saying that I am a URM.

People with lower stats have them for various reasons and many find success in spite of their numbers. When that happens to a minority student it gets turned into a broad statement about how unfair or ludicrous affirmative action is instead of a normal "underdog" story. The digs at who I must be are subtle and there's no other way to take them than personal. The part I bolded was the most ridiculous line you spat out, since if I you didn't reduce my MDApps page to "African" you'd see that I've invested an extra year of risky medical school coursework after postbacc to "get in how people of [your] race get in." So, unfortunately, I don't accept your backhanded well-wishes for my success in medical school... see ya!

My only intention with saying you're a URM was that you're probably defensive about this issue...which you are.

I made no other assumptions about you other than that. And I wholeheartedly meant good luck, and there was nothing backhanded about it, but if that's what you want to read, ok.

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

My only intention with saying you're a URM was that you're probably defensive about this issue...which you are.

I made no other assumptions about you other than that. And I wholeheartedly meant good luck, and there was nothing backhanded about it, but if that's what you want to read, ok.

How is citing data defensive?

 

[EasternMer]

How is citing data defensive?

That might not be...but this is:

What an inane way to exit a conversation that started from a baseless claim that, even if true, has no bearing on the actual practice of medicine by minority physicians. Instead of actually addressing my genuine curiosity as to why you made that statement (as well as the data that backs the counterclaim), you went ad hominem and tried to discredit me by saying that I am a URM.

People with lower stats have them for various reasons and many find success in spite of their numbers. When that happens to a minority student it gets turned into a broad statement about how unfair or ludicrous affirmative action is instead of a normal "underdog" story. The digs at who I must be are subtle and there's no other way to take them than personal. The part I bolded was the most ridiculous line you spat out, since if I you didn't reduce my MDApps page to "African" you'd see that I've invested an extra year of risky medical school coursework after postbacc to "get in how people of [your] race get in." So, unfortunately, I don't accept your backhanded well-wishes for my success in medical school... see ya!


I'd say you made a few more assumptions about me than I did you. I'm a racist bigot who is butthard because I'm not a URM, oh and I hate minorities. Whatever. I'll let it slide off my back, no hurt feelings. Like I said before, I was just stating my opinion, didn't want to get into a back to back. And, I never said that URM sourcing is bad for the record.

 

[gjitec]

Everyone, here on SDN, resorts to ad hominem attacks. We are all too smart for our own goods.

We are all going to be crappy doctors.

 

[deleted535750]

One can simply ask them a question in Spanish, or find about out their involvement in the Hispanic community. We have other questions as well, but I'm not going to tip my hand.

Because if someone doesn't speak Spanish then that means they're not Hispanic? What other things do ALL hispanics do? Please, do tell.

I don't mean for this to sound aggressive, but I've seen your type of behavior among people far too often.

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

I'd say you made a few more assumptions about me than I did you. I'm a racist bigot who is butthard because I'm not a URM, oh and I hate minorities. Whatever. I'll let it slide off my back, no hurt feelings. Like I said before, I was just stating my opinion, didn't want to get into a back to back. And, I never said that URM sourcing is bad for the record.

You can say misguided things and not be a racist bigot. Don't be so hard on yourself. You started off by saying 75% of minority premeds do this and I challenged that that was true/meaningful with data. You responded in probably the least productive way possible, by not discussing...anything. I have no idea why you're in awe that taking a left turn and pointing out my race would be so poorly received. Is there some context that lead you to form that 75% statistic? Do you think that the career goals of this random sample of URM premeds and medical students have tangible effects on patients, if the way data says they end up practice implies that more more than 25% of URM physicians end up serving their communities? These are the questions I challenged you to answer when I brought up those studies and it's sad to me that you choose to focus on my race and tone instead of putting your beliefs on the table and examining them rigorously.

 

[RedPhys]

Because if someone doesn't speak Spanish then that means they're not Hispanic? What other things do ALL hispanics do? Please, do tell.

In my experience, the patients that care about someone, in this case, being Hispanic, is because they hope they speak Spanish.

Language is a big part of culture.

 

[FutureOncologist]

I think OP was trying to get at "I say I'm Middle Eastern" but I'm white, Jewish, in good terms financially, grew up in the states, and I'm using it to make up for my mediocre grades/MCAT. Adcoms would probably call bulls**t unless specified in the primary/secondary application.

 

[deleted535750]

In my experience, the patients that care about someone, in this case, being Hispanic, is because they hope they speak Spanish.

Language is a big part of culture.

I agree, it is a big part of culture. Though checking to see if someone is really Hispanic by posing a question to them is Spanish is presumptuous.

In my experience, I've seen Hispanic patients speak to Hispanic nurses in Spanish, only for the patients to find out the nurse does not speak Spanish. More than once this has been followed by the patients verbally assaulting and slinging insults at the nurses, such as calling them "not real Mexicans."

 

[RedPhys]

In my experience, I've seen Hispanic patients speak to Hispanic nurses in Spanish, only for the patients to find out the nurse does not speak Spanish. More than once this has been followed by the patients verbally assaulting and slinging insults at the nurses, such as calling them "not real Mexicans."

The point being, then, that if you're being recuited/trying to get points for your URM-ness, a big part of it (as a Hispanic), is that you will be able to be valuable to the Spanish-speaking Hispanic community.

I dunno, in my experience (as a Hispanic) talking with a lot of different varieties of Hispanics, the ones that can't or don't speak Spanish don't identify as Hispanic and just check off White (I haven't met an Americanized dark-skinned Hispanic).

 

[deleted535750]

The point being, then, that if you're being recuited/trying to get points for your URM-ness, a big part of it (as a Hispanic), is that you will be able to be valuable to the Spanish-speaking Hispanic community.

I dunno, in my experience (as a Hispanic) talking with a lot of different varieties of Hispanics, the ones that can't or don't speak Spanish don't identify as Hispanic and just check off White (I haven't met an Americanized dark-skinned Hispanic).

Those are the experiences you've had, and they're totally valid. I, on the other hand, have had different experiences with the people I've talked to.

What then about non-Hispanics who can speak Spanish, and have taken an active part in the Hispanic community? Should they receive the URM bonus too?

 

[gjitec]

Ah, makes sense.

Well, going with this logic, what's the acronym for just rightly represented in medicine?

So, no one got back to on this... Is any group represented "just right?"

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

I agree, it is a big part of culture. Though checking to see if someone is really Hispanic by posing a question to them is Spanish is presumptuous.

In my experience, I've seen Hispanic patients speak to Hispanic nurses in Spanish, only for the patients to find out the nurse does not speak Spanish. More than once this has been followed by the patients verbally assaulting and slinging insults at the nurses, such as calling them "not real Mexicans."

Those are the experiences you've had, and they're totally valid. I, on the other hand, have had different experiences with the people I've talked to.

What then about non-Hispanics who can speak Spanish, and have taken an active part in the Hispanic community? Should they receive the URM bonus too?

They'd receive the meaningful EC and showing dedication to an disadvantaged community bonus...?

 

[deleted535750]

They'd receive the meaningful EC and showing dedication to an disadvantaged community bonus...?

So because they're not the right color, and don't have the right last name, they won't receive an advantage; despite having the same experiences that affirmative action for hispanics in medicine was designed for?

 

[Goro]

I once had a high school classmate named Jenny Gomez. The only thing Hispanic about her was her last name.

Was she URM?

You tell me.

There's a difference between ethnicity, minority status, URM status, census status, and community.

Because if someone doesn't speak Spanish then that means they're not Hispanic? What other things do ALL hispanics do? Please, do tell.

I don't mean for this to sound aggressive, but I've seen your type of behavior among people far too often.