M3 interested in Neurocognitive disorders

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BrightsideOfLife

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To put it plainly, if there was a purely Geriatrics residency I would choose it. However, there is not so I am battling to decide if psychiatry, FM, IM, or neurology is the best pathway to take. Thus far I have loved each of these clerkships and have had additional exposure to IM-Geriatrics as well as Geriatric psychiatry. Now I have less than 5 months to decide and am hoping for a bit more insight? Has anyone else on this forum struggled with this decision? If so, what tipped you towards geriatric psychiatry?

Background about myself: decent US MD school, no red flags, no honors but have a handful of high passes and am still waiting on several grades, Step 1 barely below overall avg, no research

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This depends on how much you like dealing with families ("why isn't he getting better? [you tried to gently tell them three previous times he likely wouldn't be getting better]) and how much paperwork you want to fill out. My guess is neurology would get the least, but I don't have any evidence for that. There's something about psychiatry that people have an (even more) unreasonable expectation for. FM will probably have the most paperwork.
 
You mention that your true passion is Geriatrics in general. If this is the case, I wouldn't limit myself to just the psychiatric component. I would do IM with Geri fellowship.

This is nothing against geripsych. If someone said they LOVED kids and wanted a specialty to work with children, I'd recommend Peds, not Child Psych.
 
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You mention that your true passion is Geriatrics in general. If this is the case, I wouldn't limit myself to just the psychiatric component. I would do IM with Geri fellowship.

This is nothing against geripsych. If someone said they LOVED kids and wanted a specialty to work with children, I'd recommend Peds, not Child Psych.

Agreed.

But your title topic says you are interested in neurocognitive disorder specifically. If that's the case, I would consider psych and then perhaps neuropsychiatry fellowship...
 
For the next 30 years do you want to treat more traditional medical aspects of geriatric patients, or dementia, pseudodementia, depression, impulse control issues, and rare mental disorders in this population? It really comes down to this.

If you're looking for inspirational stories, you won't hear any that separates the two worlds because the joy is in treating geriatric folk. Perhaps in the IM world more geri patients will be mentally intact to establish closer interpersonal dynamics, but I'm only speculating since I only have a resident's level of experience.
 
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For the next 30 years do you want to treat more traditional medical aspects of geriatric patients, or dementia, pseudodementia, depression, impulse control issues, and rare mental disorders in this population? It really comes down to this.
I think what has me drawn to the geriatric patient population most is the identification and classification of dementia (and the anticipation of hopefully someday having better treatment options than what we have now), finding causes of delirium, extending years of independence and improving ADLs or extending the number of years they can safely live with family (possibly by reducing behavioral disturbances), helping disordered sleep, and identifying patients whose depression is actually due to a medical condition. Right now I see these interests as falling under the realm of geriatric psychiatry, but I am having a hard time distinguishing where the line is between geriatric psychiatry and geriatric medicine. I'd be happy also managing the patients hypertension, diabetes, providing immunizations/screening, etc... but it is not what gets me excited. On the other hand, I see the benefit to being on the primary side as well when I've come across suicidal patients who are suicidal because they have a poorly managed medical condition. Environment wise I love outpatient clinic, but would also be happy occasionally visiting nursing homes or working inpatient 1 week out of the month. I believe that ideal schedule also applies equally to both.

Thank you everyone for the help thus far!
 
do you mean dementia? neurocognitive disorder is this bizarre DSM-5 term that even a lot of psychiatrists shudder when they hear. it is not a term that has any cachet in any other medical specialty, certainly not in medicine or neurology, and those of us who spend much of our time working with these patients use the term dementia. "neurocognitive" is a particular ridiculous term as it conveys nothing that "cognitive" would not.//end of rant - sorry ignore my ramblings

Geriatric medicine is a growth area of course, however you will find that many geriatricians do not advertise the fact that they are because they make less money seeing geriatric patients. Geriatric patients have medicare (which is why geriatrics begins at 65 in this country) and they are complex patients with multiple medical comorbidities. It takes a great deal of skill and effort (and time) to effectively treat these patients and this is not reflected in renumeration. However you are not likely to be poor. Gerontologists make less than their internal medicine colleagues. As a result it really is those with a true dedication to the field and caring for older adults who go into it. Atul Gawande describes the challenges of working in this field in Being Mortal which is worth a read if you haven't read it. One can certainly have an emphasis on dementia as a gerontologist though from what I have seen they are better at managing patients with vascular dementia, those with complicated medical comorbidities, or where medical illnesses are believed to be contributing/causing the cognitive dysfunction.

Geriatric Neurology is a subspecialty of neurology and tbh I'm not sure it adds anything over general neurology training given many of the patients neurologists see with movement disorders, epilepsy, neurodegenerative disorders are geriatric but I suppose focusing on older adults again focuses on the skill of focusing on complex patients with multiple comorbidities, and situating these problems within both the biology of aging, and its social implications. Behavioral Neurology is a particular field that focuses on dementia but it is a highly academic field, and often includes young-onset dementia, which is very fascinating in itself (particularly if you are interested in genetics, autoimmune diseases, and neuropsychiatric manifestations of neurological disease). Psychiatrists do not usually have much role (if any) in the diagnosis of patients with young-onset dementias.

Geriatric Psychiatrists do not just see patients with dementia. They will see patients with chronic psychiatric illnesses who are now older, those dealing with depression for the first time, abnormal bereavement reactions, delirium, late paraphrenia, very late onset bipolar disorder (which is still more common than rare dementias), increasingly substance use disorders (including alcoholism beginning for the first time, and now patients with long histories of substance use disorder who are living into old age). There are many interesting forensic issues in the geriatric population including assessment of testamentary capacity, guardianship/conservatorship, coercion/undue influence and elder abuse, contractual capacity, quality of care in nursing homes/ALFs which can be exploitative. I have a particular interest in forensic geriatric issues and forensic neuropsychiatry in general including how dementia is managed in the criminal justice system. One does not need a fellowship in geriatric psychiatry if you spend enough time during psychiatry residency working with geriatric patients and getting exposure to these patients. Although the issues of medicare reimbursement applies in this population you will find that inpatient geropsych units (which are becoming more common) pay well though can be dangerous places, and nursing home contracts can sometimes favorably supplement one's income.

I actually had no particular interest in geriatrics when I was a medical student but I did a 4 month geriatric medicine rotation as an intern (in the UK) and loved it. I had no particular interest in geriatric psychiatry but I have increasingly found some of the most fascinating patients I have seen to be geriatric patients (for example late paraphrenia, bipolar dementia, othello syndrome), though I have a particular interest in young onset dementias in general, and fronto-temporal dementia in particular.
 
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I actually had no particular interest in geriatrics when I was a medical student but I did a 4 month geriatric medicine rotation as an intern (in the UK) and loved it. I had no particular interest in geriatric psychiatry but I have increasingly found some of the most fascinating patients I have seen to be geriatric patients (for example late paraphrenia, bipolar dementia, othello syndrome), though I have a particular interest in young onset dementias in general, and fronto-temporal dementia in particular.

Splik, you used a Kraepelinian term! To the original poster, geriatric psychiatry is the most clinically interesting of the three in terms of clinical pathology (but I'm biased). My department has one of the most well known geriatric psychiatrists/clinical researchers in the country, and we rotate through his clinic during our second year. He works closely with the behavioural neurologists (also some of the best in the country) and stays on top of a lot of medical issues in his patients. Remember that you have to do 3-4 years of intensive residency training before sub specializing, and since your area of focus is quite narrow, completely unrelated areas in internal medicine or neurology can be brutally painful as a resident. Most psychiatry residents really enjoy life (though we are busy) during residency.
 
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Thank you all! I feel as though I am very late in deciding on the direction of psychiatry but after using the last week to really explore this idea I believe this is the right path! Any advice on what programs will allow me to obtain more/superior experience in geropsych? I will not be limiting myself geographically.
 
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UCLA and UCSF if you want California.
 
Ditto Leo. As a basic first pass, places with big VAs tend to have lots of geropsych.
 
Thank you all! I feel as though I am very late in deciding on the direction of psychiatry but after using the last week to really explore this idea I believe this is the right path! Any advice on what programs will allow me to obtain more/superior experience in geropsych? I will not be limiting myself geographically.

In addition to the above consider:
1) Pittsburgh- one of the most well established gero psych divisions in the country. A lot of the NFL concussion gate scandal started here in conjunction with their Alzheimer's Disease Research Center
2) Wash U: Eric Lenze is one of the biggest names in the field with a ton of NIH funding. He works closely with the ADRC at Wash U, which is one of the best and most well funded in the country.
3) UCSD- Dilip Jeste is a huge name and past APA president. He has done some interesting work on paraphrenia
 
Also, look for VA sites with well established CLC's (Community Living Centers). They tend to have good, multi-disciplinary gero teams.
And geri fellowships
 
I second UPMC (Pittsburgh).

They're amazing.

Plus I went to the AAGP meeting last year in New Orleans and they let me party with them just because I'd been to med school at Pitt. They're nice folks on top of being amazing.


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I was in the same position as you last year. I was really considering neuro and psych because I knew FM and IM were more broad than I would like. I ended up deciding on Psych with plans to either do a geri fellowship or just primarily see geri patients. Just like you I knew long term who I wanted as the majority of my patient base. I knew that dementia was something I was really passionate about and I would be happy treating patients with dementia. What I considered to make my final decision was who and what would I be treating when I wasn't treating the patients with neurocognitive disorders. For me, I realized I would be happier managing patients with psychosis, depression, ect. as compared to stroke, peripheral nervous system disease, ect.

You already found out the hard part, patients you feel passionate about treating. Now it just comes down the stuff that doesn't excite you as much. Whichever of those you find most interesting will be your best bet.
 
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