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Males being asked to leave during pelvic exams

Discussion in 'Ob/Gyn' started by Teufelhunden, 09.18.03.

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  1. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    From some personal experience and hearing stories from others, there seems to be a trend where male students are often being asked to leave during a Gyn visit. This seems unfair, especially to those of us interested in ObGyn. At what point do the patient's wishes get trumped by the need to train students?

    What about interns/residents? I just wondered to what extent (if any) this was an issue. I'm already seeing that female students are getting to do a lot more paps, bimanual exams, etc than the male students. As someone interested in ObGyn, this is very discouraging. How the hell am I supposed to learn if I'm standing out in the hall?
  2. MacGyver

    MacGyver Removed

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    Males arent welcome into ob/gyn.... thats the bottom line
  3. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    That's what I was afraid of.
  4. sacrament

    sacrament somewhere east

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    At OHSU, the word on the street is that male students had better prepare themselves for a whole lotta nothin' when they rotate through Ob/Gyn.
  5. doc05

    doc05 2K Member

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    this is the case at many schools, particularly if you rotate through a private hospital. If you are interested in obgyn (why??), try to rotate through a county or city hospital.
  6. grouptherapy

    grouptherapy super pork

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    7/10 times, was asked to leave the room. my obgyn rotation sucked.
  7. AZDOC

    AZDOC Member

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    I am male applying for OB/GYN this year and haven't experienced that problem. I have done tons of pelvics, paps, deliveries, D and C's, amnios, AROM, sew vaginal lacerations, and participated with C-sections and Hysts. If you are interested in OB/GYN go to a teaching hospital and they will keep you busy.
  8. Airborne

    Airborne Senior Member

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    Interesting -

    During my 3rd year rotation, i saw MAYBE 10 deliveries, and actually delivered 2 babies. In short, I was not welcome in the delivery room. This was not uncommon for males at the hospital where I rotated.

    Conversely, we had an active Gyn Onc Service were I was welcomed by the patients as a second assistent and scrubed on more then 50+ hard core surgeries in my 2 weeks on the service (seriously).

    In the end, figured that each women could choose their own providers (and in my case observer) - Although I was really attracted to OB/Gyn I could feel the limitations as a male - In the end, my interest (and eventual application) to ENT told me that my practice would eventually be limited to just north of the clavicle. I just appreciated a side of medicine I would never see again. And loved every minute of it.

    Best of luck to the OB/GYNs - its a great field.

    Airborne
  9. larryj

    larryj Member

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    I have found that it really depends on the attitude of the attending (or the nurse) who presents the option of a student to the patient. On my FP rotation I was introduced to the patients as a medical student working with the physician, by the attending. It was said in a manner that implied this was the norm and was expected. He tells them this right on the spot, while I was already in the room. I was not turned down a single time. I am sure that some women would have declined if asked in a more subtle manner. He did selectively not ask 3 or 4 patients who he knew were likely not receptive.

    On the other hand my OB rotation and a few other electives, nurses would first ask a patient. I did not directly hear, but can guess that it was phrased something like " You don't want a medical student examining you, do you?" . Or at least with that connotation.
  10. MeowMix

    MeowMix Explaining "Post-Call"

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    The patient's wishes NEVER get trumped by the need to train students. It's my cervix, thank you, and as long as I am conscious I get to choose who sees it.
    sb247 and PregnantAt51 like this.
  11. Thoinga Thoing

    Thoinga Thoing Greasin' the Pole.....

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    If it was a CLINIC patient, who almost by definition was either...
    A) Coming in for free care (of course they're uninsured!!!)
    B) "No Ingles..." (& can't bring someone who does!!)
    C) On welfare with 3 kids by 3 different "baby-daddy"s
    D) All of the above (more than 90% of the time)

    I didn't even bother to ask. It is MY education, after all....
  12. AFS

    AFS New Member

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    Hey everyone,

    Men are being actively recruited now in OB. I used to think that prior to entering residency that it would become an issue and that alot of patients would not want to see me. I have found, unlike the people in this forum who are not doctors and say men are not welcome, that the vast majority of patients have no qualms whatsoever. When a patient only requests a female, alot of the the times it is a religious issue, ie, they're muslim. All in all, it is not a concern at all, at least in my experience.
    The REAL problem of OB these days is multifold. There has to be a mix of residents (males and females) to make it a healthy environment. (No field should be completely male either). People in this forum interested in OB I suppose are mostly students, as I was two years ago. Alot of students don't think about and brush off as not primary issues things that become real shockers when you enter the field of OBGYN. Yes, I am talking about malpractice... In many states you as residents can be sued, no matter if you are an intern or whatever. Not fair? Well, there is not anything we can do about it... at least for awhile. I can't believe I haven't been sued yet. I am not even in a "high risk" ACOG state and everyday I see doctors dropping OB from their practices. Defensive medicine is rampant, tests for ridiculous symptoms you will see everyday because OBs are so fearful. Malpractice premiums average $52000/year in my state and are on the rise. So then you think as a student "Well, I'll still be okay, I won't get sued and I'll still make enough to offset all that" Understand this: there is no rhyme nor reason to the medicolegal system today, it is heavily favored for lawyers...any bad outcome, no matter if everything procedurally had been by the book, will often result in huge settlements. Just getting named in a suit will increase your rates, almost to the point where you will reconsider practicing OB. Analogy: Imagine paying $20000/year for car insurance... pretty soon you'll be walking. Couple all that with Enron-like insurance companies reducing the amount of your reimbursements... you will soon be rethinking your career choice. Will there be a backlash eventually? Who knows. I have attendings everyday telling me how foolish I was to enter OBGYN these days and I am in what is considered a top program. Just know what your getting into. It is a much different(and more realistic) perspective as a resident rather than a student. Worrying about being a man in OBGYN is ABSOLUTELY a trivial issue. Please students... don't write replies that are critical of this commentary or me. You are all very bright, but you have to walk in the shoes of a resident or practicing OB before you can meaningfully rebut this. OK? Would I do this specialty again? Tough, tough question... I am not sure, would probably lean against it... Good luck to all.
  13. mailbuddy

    mailbuddy Member

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    AFS, thanks for your honest input. It definitely is a difficult decision to make, especially these days. I am a man applying to Obgyn for the 2004 match. The truth is that maybe I don't know what I am getting into... but I don't see myself practicing in another area.
    I am a foreign medical grad, but US citizen so I am not very informed about the malpractice issues... What do you mean with "high risk" acog states?? I would guess premiums for residents are covered by most programs right?
    Should the premiums influence where I do my residency? or is that more important after residency... Do fellowship programs cover your malpract. insurance?
    What state/program are you in??
    My email is mailbuddy1@ yahoo.com I would appreciate if you sent me a short note...
    Thanks for your help!!!
  14. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    Well, although not yet doctors, most of us are citing personal experiences as students on OB rotations.

    Well, actually...for me MALPRACTICE is a trivial issue...errr...actually it's a NON-issue as I am Navy HPSP with every intention of making Navy Medicine a career. I already have 6 years active duty...only 14 more 'till retirement :)

    Not only will I NEVER have to worry about malpractice insurance, I also don't have to worry about student loans :D

    Go Navy!

    Oh, anyway, back to the topic at hand...as you can see, "being male" is a key issue for me as there is a shift in preference towards female providers in OBGYN. According to an ACOG news release, "The issue of physician gender is also an important criterion for women," Dr. Miller said. According to the Gallup survey, about half (47%) of the women surveyed prefer a female ob/gyn, while 15% state a preference for a male ob/gyn, and 37% say they have no preference." If you're interested, click here to read the whole article.
  15. Goofyone

    Goofyone Ohhh sexy girlfriend

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    FINE WITH ME

    What baker wants to come home after work and eat bread for dinner?
  16. jd807

    jd807 Member

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    AFS,

    I just wanted to say thanks for your post. This board has a history of inattivity except for the past month or so. I for one greatly appreciate the post of an actual OB resident rather than the rest of us med students trying to figure stuff out with out 'guidance from above' ( although i am grateful for any post on this board!).

    jd
  17. dkwyler94

    dkwyler94 Senior Member

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    I just completed my OB/GYN rotation and had a great experience with it. I am seriously considering this area of medicine, although I am leaving my options open as I am just now starting my third year. I'm also male.

    I found the comment about the attitude of the nurse affecting the patients openness to a male student interesting. In clinic, we had two main nurses. One saw the doctor as a patient while I was there and declined to have me in on the visit. She later told me she would never have a student, male or female, in on her visits. On the days she was working, only about 50% of the patients let me come in. When the other nurse was working, I would only get 1 or 2 rejections a day. I mentioned this to the nurse, and she was suprised. I don't think she intended to have this impact. I am sure it was just the way she presented it.
    Of course the doctor I worked with the most was male. When I worked with a female one, I got the boot about 7/10 times. Some wouldn't even let me in when it was only a consultation.

    In all, I did probably about 150 pelvic exams. I did several complete workups, and my doctor was fine with me taking one patient while he took another. He would just discuss the results with me and then with the patient.

    As far as the malpractice is concerned, I intend to practice in Colorado which has some of the best rates in the country. The major insurer is a doctor-owned company which has a policy of not settling unless there was aparent negligence. Things have to work out with malpractice though. I think this crisis will mostly be over in 6 years when I'm out. Either that, or people will have to start delivering their own kids.

    Now the big question. I'm still single. Would going into OB/GYN help or hurt my dating life? :)
    David
  18. Airborne

    Airborne Senior Member

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    It would hurt.
  19. I'm starting my OB/GYN rotation in a week's time...looking forward to it.
  20. LoneSEAL

    LoneSEAL Senior Member

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    I think a factor that determines how patients will receive male OB/GYn students is how the student is introduced. If the attending says, "..And this is X, my medical student. He's working with me.." Boom, you're in b/c the attending has essentially validated you. However, if the attending says, "Is it ok if a med student joins us?" then there might be some problems. The way the question is phrased suggests that having a med student in the room MIGHT be a bad thing. Often, I'll see pts hesitate for a moment. Most agree to having the med student tag along, but I'm sure some students are rejected.
  21. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    Get used to it. It's the future and there's nothing you or anybody else can do about it. It's not so much as descrimination as it is a woman's preferrance. Women have always had preferrances, but not always choices. Now there are a lot of choices. By the time you finish medical school, you'll be lucky just to do routine physical that doen't include a gyn exam at; because you won't be allowed to do that you got it?
    :eek:
  22. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    You're forgetting something. Some people don't know their rights and some do. You may be used to dealing with those who don't know their rights, but you will have your share of experience dealing with those who do.

    And by the way pal, not everybody is on welfare, 3 kids with different daddy's, scared and needing to bring someone with them or just plain stupid.

    Do yourself a favor. Do More HomeWork!
  23. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    Thoinga was simply stating what HIS experience was. He never said that everybody is on welfare, 3 kids with different , rather he was saying that that was his experience, which can't be wrong, now, can it (?)

    So, obviously his homework is already done.
  24. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    Well, obviously, if I become an OBGYN I will be doing a gyn exam, huh? Male OBGYNs are not going to disappear. Yes, there will be patients who prefer a female practicioner, and that's fine. However, I am starting to learn that there are many women who are more comfortable with a male. And believe it or not, many more who simply prefer someone with competence and compassion, with no regard to gender.

    There's a place for all of us in medicine, you got it?
  25. GeddyLee

    GeddyLee Bad-ass Guitarist

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    Posted on a separate thread by JANICE:

    Wow.

    Legalized medical rape? I'm betting Janice is not a med student or physician, as I've never heard such harsh comments about the exam from colleagues. Either that, or she has some of the most radical views I've yet to hear.

    Janice, what overhauls are you referring to? As far as I know, pap smears and pelvics aren't going anywhere.

    As far as I'm concerned, I think it's a shame that women, who fought so hard to gain equal rights with men, would now argue that men shouldn't be allowed to enter the field of Ob/Gyn. I also think it would be a shame to allow anyone to graduate medical school without learning to appropriately perform paps and breast exams, which are arguably two of the most important preventative measures in medicine today.

    I think people who don't understand what the exam is useful for may equate it to "legalized medical rape". Rape implies sexual nature. No one that I know found anything sexual about the exam. Of course, anyone who has actually rotated through Ob/Gyn would understand that. Certainly it must be uncomfortable.

    But you know what, having a digital rectal exam is pretty uncomfortable to. And I personally don't think having it done by a doctor of one sex or the other would make it any more enjoyable.

    Janice, I'm dying to know what overhauls are occurring in the field....
  26. woolie

    woolie Intermountain West

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    I think it depends on the region of the country. I had a pelvic done this week and the (male) physician came in, then the MALE nurse came in. I said: hey, why are you here, it's supposed to be a FEMALE in here with me.

    The male nurse got nasty and said: no, it's only supposed to be a "nurse."

    Silly me, I forgot I was in Utah, home of the MORMONS. :rolleyes:

    So even tho it was a teaching hospital and you'd think they were actually living in the 21st century, they apparently are not. Women are definitely second class citizens here, and the doctors are still men - for the most part. I was really very angry - they were incredibly patronizing and insulting towards me and it was clear that I had no rights in their eyes.

    :mad:

    I sure felt a LONG way from home (NYC).
  27. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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  28. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    You are the one who don't got it pal. Male gyno will continue to exist, but not abundantly. Like it or not gender is the issue here. No male doctor likes to think he one day won't have such access to a woman's body, but the fact is he is not, and don't you forget that.

    You got it.
  29. irisheyes

    irisheyes Member

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    Damn, well there goes my number one incentive for attending medical school!! Foiled again by Janice. Because everyone knows that doctors have a hard time finding money hungry, arm-hanging, "my guys a doctor" types outside of the clinical setting who are more than willing to grant us unrestricted ACCESS should we be so inclined to indulge. Moreover Janice, in this age of equality yada, yada, yawn....there are PLENTY of female physicians who LOVE inspecting female reproductive parts, and please do not be as naive as to believe that they did not chose OB/GYN for that specific purpose. However in so far as this is certanly not true of all female OB/GYN's, neither is it true of all male OB/GYN's. The only people who suscribe to this unwholesome view are those wo have issues with the pertinent sex. In which regard Janice, what happened?
    EMDO2018 likes this.
  30. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    For starters, male gynecology is on a serious decline as if you haven't noticed. Second, I'm sure you've heard that male med students are being asked to leave the room when such an exam is going to be given a female patient. Paps and pelvics are not the only way chum to prevent cancer and other health problems in women. To say that exam is the most important preventative measure for women's health is to put a limit on your ablilty to see the human body, especially a woman's body, in any other way other than sexual. The exam is a sexual exam. The male doctors who don't see that is the reason why most women see those doctors as perverts. To say nothing of the women's husbands who don't want another male, doctor or not, dicking around with his stuff. Excuse the french, but the exam is sexual and way you look at it. It's just a matter of having the right of choice when it comes to being examined.

    You may not be used to hearing the kind of terminology I use, but your colleagues are no strangers to it. They are simply not expected to use it, as they may be seen as-shall I say-Ghetto.
  31. GeddyLee

    GeddyLee Bad-ass Guitarist

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    Janice, half of what you doesn't make sense.

    I thought Paps were pretty darn importants. How else do they screen for cervical cancer? As far as I know, it's the only way. What other exam are you referring to?

    What would you say about a lesbian Ob/Gyn? Is this as repulsive as a male Ob/Gyn? How about a homosexual male Ob/Gyn? Is that better?

    I can understand why some women may not want a male ob/gyn. But there are women out there who don't have a problem with it, and actually prefer it.

    Perhaps we should give male med students a vacation during the weeks where their femal counterparts are rotating through Ob/Gyn? It seems you are quite opposed to men in the specialty. How about urology? i don't think women should do urology because of the "delicate" nature of the exams. What's next? Big ugly people shouldn't do pediatrics because it may scare the kids?

    You come across as a little mis-informed some how. Husbands don't want somebody else "dicking" around with their stuff? Are you implying ownership by men of their wives' vaginas? This seems a little backwards.

    A male who does not see the exam as sexual in nature is a pervert? I think the doctor that does see the exam as sexual is the pervert. The doctor that doesn't see it as sexual is probably someone who understands the importance of the exam and acts with professionalism. I can tell you...there is no sexual pleasure gained through performing the exam.
  32. woolie

    woolie Intermountain West

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    Hey guys, it's been a week and I feel much better about my ER GYN visit. I actually do like living in Utah and people are really very progressive in alot of ways. I think being there on an ER basis, plus the nurse being sort of flip - well it freaked me out and made me mad.

    I do sympathise with guys who want to be there as students. You definitely have the right and I wouldn't mind having a male student hanging around during an exam. This stuff gets pretty boring and we all look pretty unsexy like that, and besides, it medicine.

    Maybe this is just the first swing of the pendulum, now that women are filling the ranks in medical school. After a while, it should go back the other way. I don't care who does my pelvic, as long as they're a decent doc and respectful. I just got accepted to medschool, so since I want to do a rural FP I'm sure I'll be seeing my share of penises and whatnot :)

    I say, advocate for more men in the exam rooms !
  33. Doni

    Doni Member

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    I don't get it. Why are you guys so interested in OB/GYN? Is it that you are fascinated with the female body because it is different than yours or is it that you just like women? For David and all the other guys that think it is going to improve their dating life, you are completely wrong!!!!!!!! Not only women, but all patients need to feel comfortable with their healthcare providers and with the care they receive. The patients come first. The tables also should be turned. None of you guys would have a problem with a female doctor treated you for male problems?
  34. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    Personally, my interest in OBGYN stems from the fact that OBGYN gives you the opportunity to practice medicine and surgery. You get to do surgical procedures (c-sections, hysterectomies) and manage medical problems (e.g. preeclampsia, gestational DM, infections, etc).

    Also, the opportunity to take care of two patients at once, i.e. mom and baby, is a unique challenge. I like GYN issues too, e.g. correctly diagnosing the cause of amenorrhea, treating PCOS.

    Also, as an MS1 and MS2 I really enjoyed reproductive physiology/endocrinology. I like the possibility of fellowship training in reproductive endocrinology/fertility medicine, GYN/ONC, URO/GYN, etc.

    Anyway, I just happen to think its an interesting field that offers a variety that most fields don't.

    Very true, indeed. That's why OBGYNs come in all shapes and sizes. Its a good thing to have diversity in all fields of medicine. As I've said before, some women feel more comfortable with a male OBGYN, others with a female. Some women have no gender preference at all, and simply want an OBGYN doc who is competent and compassionate.

    No. I personally wouldn't have any issues with having a female urologist. I simply want (from a physician) what most patients want: someone who is willing to listen, show compassion and empathy, someone who will take time to explain all my options, and of course, someone who is medically competent, i.e. is thorough in his/her diagnosis and treatment.
  35. Doni

    Doni Member

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    You have convinced me that you want to be in OB/GYN for the right reasons. If you convey your passion/interest to your patients in a similar effective manner, then you should be very successful. If the patients understood your perspective then they would not mind you gaining experience.
  36. cguidr4

    cguidr4 Member

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    I'm interested in OB/GYN for the same reasons as teufelhunden.
    In addition to being the only field in primary care that gets to do surgery, I think OB/GYN is a great field because you are not always dealing with sick people and sad situations. Bringing a newborn into the world is a joyful and rewarding experience.

    I hope males are not discouraged by this forum. The remarks by Janice are undoubtbly radical and should be disregarded. She obviously has issues and needs professional help.
  37. dobonedoc

    dobonedoc Senior Member

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    Whoa, Janice, perhaps a week on a Maui beach would do you a world of good.

    Please remember the concept of concent. It is not a part of Rape, yet it is a vital part of medicine. No force involved as a woman presents for an exam. But you knew that.

    Utah is a great place. Tons of good research comes out of the U of U. Great providers and hospitals all over the state. And let's hear it for an affordible private health insurance plan! If you are bitter, please evaluate why, then do something coonstructive about it.

    Cheers!
  38. nuclearrabbit77

    nuclearrabbit77 commercial sex worker

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    if the exam in itself irrevokably sexual, then under that logic, all these women who desire to see female clinicians all have lesbianic tendencies. i can translate that in Ghetto-speak for you as well.

    if da exam in itself irrevokably sexual, then under dat logic, all deez biAtchez who desire ta see beotch clinicians all gots lesbianic tendencies. ah can translate dat in Ghetto-speak fo' ya as well.
    w0rd!

    Get help. You need help.
  39. GeddyLee

    GeddyLee Bad-ass Guitarist

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    HAHA...nuclearrabbit77...funny

    I tink dat janice be one crazy biatch. Da rong person musta been dickin round wid her stuff, you know what i sayin?
  40. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    If you are speaking for yourself when you say there is no pleasure in performing the exam, then I can't argue with you. But don't even look like you want to think about speaking for doctors in general. Not only do women know better (and the populance in general) but you can't leave the media out!

    Dr. Brian Finkle, an abortionist of Arizona, is history because of sexual assault/abuse of his patients spanning a period of 18-20 years. Read all about it on the Arizona Republic website.

    How could you not see the exam as sexual when it involves a very sexual part of the body? Maybe you are totally unaware of the fact that some doctors are not only capable of committing the crime of sexual assault/rape, but some actually go that far. Ever heard of such a thing with the almighty doctor? You can pull tons of that up on the net just by surfing. Not only that, but you can even buy books about those doctors assholes. Try reading one, such as The Rape of the city of Lovell. Buy it at Amazon.com.

    And yes, I am making it my business to be as informed as I can be. It simply makes good sense for anyone, no matter the gender to know their rights. Especially women.

    It is true that a lot of husbands don't want another man dicking around on a territory they consider theirs. As I said, most women prefer a woman doctor when it comes to that often unnecessary exam. As to paps being important, they are only if a woman really needs one. They are not important for every woman, nor should every woman have one. The elderly should not have one, a very young pre-teen should not have one, virgins with hymens that are intact no matter what the age, and anyone who is not having a problem in that area. The exam is not for everybody plan and simple.

    When a woman wants a female doctor who she feels comfortable with, it doesn't matter what that doctor's sexual preferance. She (the doctor) would probably keep that under wraps anyway.

    By the way, a man is not backwards because he doesn't want another man inside his wife's vagina. Some husbands have managed to talk their wives into switching to a female gyn.
  41. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    You go into whatever field you want, just don't think that in six years the issue of women patients demanding female doctors for gyn exams is going away. Like I told someone else on this same board, by the you finish med school, they (women patients) are not going to accept you. Don't kid yourself.

    As for whether or not it will help or hurt your dating life, that depends upon your attitude toward women once you start looking frequently at a sexual and sensitive private part of them.

    No matter where you work, be prepared to accept rejection and a woman's "No" for an answer. Keep positive and be respectful giving women a big listening ear and you shouldn't have any problems. Get the bighead and think you got some right of passive and you will one day find yourself looking a lawsuit. Your goal should be not to examine a woman in that fashion, but to make a very fine doctor and avoid lawsuits at any cost.
  42. GeddyLee

    GeddyLee Bad-ass Guitarist

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    Well, dentists have been accused of sexually violating their patients under anesthesia. Should we not have male dentists? BTW, why would a lesbias female Ob/Gyn be more likely to keep her sexuality out of the exam than a heterosexual male? Your anectdotal evidence of a few Ob/Gyn's who behaved inappropriately proves nothing! I'm sure you can find men and women in every specialty, if not every possible job, that have behaved inappropriately in a sexual way. Maybe we should ban all men from all medical specialties in an effort to circumvent possible sexual assault in the future?

    I'd love to hear your source that supports the idea that many husbands do not want their wives going to male gyn's. Given your extremely feminist point of view, I find it hard to believe that you don't advocate these women leave their over-controlling husbands who would rather them go without medical care than *gasp* go to a male ob/gyn.

    But what I REALLY want to know is, where you find the evidence supporting your statement about the need for Paps? No woman needs a pap unless they are having a problem with their vagina??? Janice, this is simply ignorance on your part. Any sexually active female should receive pap tests in order to identify changes in the cervical mucosa that may lead to cervical cancer. Cervical cancer, as I'm sure you are aware, is an easily preventable cause of death.

    The National Cancer Institute recommends women have pap test performed at least once every 3 years, beginning 3 years after first having intercourse. They also recommend that the first pap be done no later than age 21. This is the general recommendation that most ob/gyn's follow, and for good reason. It's based on evidence for the prevention of invasive cancer of the cervix. Paps can be discontinued after age 65 if they've tested negatively on a consistent basis, however many women choose to continue to have them for their own reassurance...heck, paps have even detected endometrial cancer early, which again, I'm sure you know is another preventable cause of death in elderly women.

    An often un-necessary exam? You'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE in medicine or public health administration or the NIH who would agree with that. What a ridiculous, unfounded, blatantly false statement you have made.

    No one wants to have private exams like pelvics...and hey, I don't even like doing them honestly...everyone is uncomfortable. But's it's time for you, Janice, to stop spreading untruths around here, and lay off the anti-male propaganda.

    Everytime you post, you call more attention to your ignorance. I'm curious as to your position? are you a medical student? a pre-med? a high schooler? a resident (god forbid)? or are you someone who just has to spout off BS that you know nothing about?

    It's time for you to go back from whence you came Janice!!!!
  43. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member

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    At first I thought Janice was someone who's 'issues' w/ Paps, etc. were d/t some awfull personal experience, so I was going to cut her some slack.

    Then, I started to think that maybe she was just...well...crazy.

    Now I'm beginning to think that she may just be a TROLL!

    If I'm right, and she is a troll..I've got to hand it to her...pretty ingenious. Got me riled up, that's for sure.
  44. jd807

    jd807 Member

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    The best way, as we all know, to get rid of Trolls is to ignore them. I say we start with this thread.
  45. nuclearrabbit77

    nuclearrabbit77 commercial sex worker

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    but it's kind of entertaining, in a Jerry Springer type of way, isn't it?
  46. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    You simply need to grow up pal and start accepting "NO" for an answer! You got a problem with that! Too bad. It's not untrue that the test is not that serious. You crazy enough to think that every woman in the world has paps. You stupid enough to think that I'm crazy because I speak my mind. Get used to it, because that is not going to stop.

    And you can go back where you came from. If you don't like doing the exams, then stop. You think what you want, but don't think that women should have this until they get 65 or over. There's a time for it (child-bearing years) and a time when it is unnecessary. (Past child-bearing and elderly)
  47. irisheyes

    irisheyes Member

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    Janice...with all due respect...your ignorance is astounding. Get a clue and then get an education. PAP SMEARS SAVE LIVES. Any argument to the contrary is made in error. It is painstakingly clear that you have absolutely ZERO medical training and very little regard for the cause you purport to espouse to, "womens health", when you pass out your misinformation. I am sure you are familiar with HPV and pre-cancer of the cervix, and the correlations between age of initiation of sexual activity and cancer activity. Indeed, I am sure it was with the aforementioned in mind that you posted your recommedation for cut-backs on pap smears........cause hey...we all believe that it is a chance for a doctor to cop a feel....( excuse me while I am physically sick). Please take your ridiculous views elsewhere. Your 15 minutes are up.
  48. GeddyLee

    GeddyLee Bad-ass Guitarist

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    Given Janice's extremely poor grammar and phrasing, obvious ingnorance about medical issues, and ghetto/jerry springer-esque style of flaming, I'm guessing she is a fairly intelligent young lady with much to contribute. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here.

    Why the hell are you cruising a student doctor forum? Again, JANICE, I implore you...tell us what your position is? are you an angry female with no medical education, as we all suspect?

    You know...you calling me stupid and telling me to grow up is like me telling the guy who invented coronary bypass surgery that his operation is useless. Who the hell do you think you are and why should I assume you are so smart?

    Paps have nothing to do with child bearing. I'm sorry you are so misinformed about this issue. A very simple search on yahoo using keywords "pap test" or "cervical cancer" or "HPV" will probably be a good start for you. I'll be glad to argue the issue further with you once you have educated yourself to have an intelligent argument about the merits/downfalls or regular cervical cancer screening. But, until then...keep the personal attacks to a minimum, lest I lose my cool.

    Oh yeah...and let's use grammar and phraseology that we can all understand.
  49. profunda

    profunda Removed

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    I have a few questions.

    So does that mean a female doc/PA/nurse/med student should be asked to leave the room when a male needs a catheter? Do all female docs who choose to do urology have sexual reasons to check out male penises? Or is it because for whatever reason they like the profession? Do they think about sex when they are sticking up a catheter or treating UTIs? If so, I think females should be banned from doing urology. If one sees no sexual correlation, then a female doc should be allowed to do urological procedures, and males to do ob/gyn procedures, for the reason that they like the field. period.

    from my understanding, most women who wants to see a gyn has diseased pus-filled vaginas. I see nothing sexual/attractive in that.


  50. Janice

    Janice Senior Member

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    Too bad you believe that paps save lives. What you're not aware of is the appalling number of mistakes that are made in reading the damn paps. Cancer is not age related either, but rather activity related. No sex equalls no problems. Non-sexually active people don't have the problems that sexually active people have. As a result, they tend to need less of that type of exam. It's not the pap then that saves their lives. They save their lives because of their lifestyle which includes the absence of sex. Coupled with them not having experienced and unexperienced hands on their delicate internal organs, their not bothered with the pain and bleeding that some women have after they have a pap. The exam when done by students and inexperienced doctors, causes more harm than good. You call my knowledge ignorant. You call it what you want. This board is for the purpose of Learning and sharing knowledge. Some people do have more of that than others.

    Although doing a pap is not the only way for a doctor to "get a feel" as you say, it is one of the quickest and most legal ways for him to get one.

    If you're sick I hope you get well. By the way, my knowledge and freedom of speech is not limited to 15 minutes.
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