Males being asked to leave during pelvic exams

[Janice]

Originally posted by GeddyLee
Given Janice's extremely poor grammar and phrasing, obvious ingnorance about medical issues, and ghetto/jerry springer-esque style of flaming, I'm guessing she is a fairly intelligent young lady with much to contribute. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here.

Why the hell are you cruising a student doctor forum? Again, JANICE, I implore you...tell us what your position is? are you an angry female with no medical education, as we all suspect?

You know...you calling me stupid and telling me to grow up is like me telling the guy who invented coronary bypass surgery that his operation is useless. Who the hell do you think you are and why should I assume you are so smart?

Paps have nothing to do with child bearing. I'm sorry you are so misinformed about this issue. A very simple search on yahoo using keywords "pap test" or "cervical cancer" or "HPV" will probably be a good start for you. I'll be glad to argue the issue further with you once you have educated yourself to have an intelligent argument about the merits/downfalls or regular cervical cancer screening. But, until then...keep the personal attacks to a minimum, lest I lose my cool.

Oh yeah...and let's use grammar and phraseology that we can all understand.

If you can't understand everyday language or lay terminolgy, then you can't understand anything.

My position is one on human/women rights. My level of medical knowledge is college courses and self-taught.

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[cguidr4]

Cancer is not age related either, but rather activity related. No sex equalls no problems. Non-sexually active people don't have the problems that sexually active people have. As a result, they tend to need less of that type of exam. It's not the pap then that saves their lives. They save their lives because of their lifestyle which includes the absence of sex. Coupled with them not having experienced and unexperienced hands on their delicate internal organs, their not bothered with the pain and bleeding that some women have after they have a pap. The exam when done by students and inexperienced doctors, causes more harm than good.

Janice,

I am beginning to feel sorry for you. Open a book. It is obvious you know nothing about medicine. Please educate yourself next time before posting false information.

Cancer is AGE related.

No sex DOESN'T equal no problems. Non-sexually active people and the elderly are still at risk, maybe not as high as sexually active people but enough that they would benefit from exams, unless they have had a hysterectomy and no prior HPV,etc..

The exam when done by (supervised) students or doctors causes more GOOD than harm. Cancer is a lot more harmful than a little pain or discomfort. In fact, I think it can be life threatening.

I don't care if you do not want a male as your OB/GYN (it is your decision), but please stop giving false info. You are trying to argue medical issues against medical students and professionals. You can't win.

 

[ZanMD]

LOL.. I have to admit "janice" had me going for a second too. She even bilked a response out of me on the other male obgyno thread.

TOUCHE!

I certainly hope you're a troll. If not, then I truly, and deeply pity you.

Hey, you know there's a physics forum. Maybe you can come over and lecture those dumb scientists about unified theory. I'm sure you've taken a physics class or two over at that thar community college, so I'm sure you can wow them with you're profound insight into the true natures of the universe when you're done here. The poor fools are wasting thier lives away on some fruitless pursuit of knowledge. I can't wait to tell them to drop everything they're doing, leave that super-collider alone, toss the those silly ideologies about big bang, and come listen, cuz JANICE the community college guru is stopping by to clear it all up!

On second thought, I've had an epiphany, and I realize now these other doctors are just fools. They can't even touch your super intellect and superior insightfulness into patient care. They're all *****s, so I'd like to pay you whatever you ask to be my own personal doctor. I don't care WHAT those cretans at Johns Hopkins say, Janice has the only true answers!

Ciao Bella

 

[Janice]

Originally posted by cguidr4
Janice,

I am beginning to feel sorry for you. Open a book. It is obvious you know nothing about medicine. Please educate yourself next time before posting false information.

Cancer is AGE related.

No sex DOESN'T equal no problems. Non-sexually active people and the elderly are still at risk, maybe not as high as sexually active people but enough that they would benefit from exams, unless they have had a hysterectomy and no prior HPV,etc..

The exam when done by (supervised) students or doctors causes more GOOD than harm. Cancer is a lot more harmful than a little pain or discomfort. In fact, I think it can be life threatening.

I don't care if you do not want a male as your OB/GYN (it is your decision), but please stop giving false info. You are trying to argue medical issues against medical students and professionals. You can't win.

I don't need your pity! And cancer has nothing to do with age. It's lifestyle related or activity related whether you see that or not. It doesn't matter. See it anyway you want. You are the one who doesn't know jack. I haven't come accross anybody who doesn't have sex having any gyn problems. Nobody benefits from exams that for the most part, are not wanted and certainly not required. I haven't heard any medical students say they are required upon entrance into med school. It isn't false information that no sex equals no problems. Perhaps you have forgotten that the HIV Virus is sexually transmitted. No sex no virus or nothing else that is sexually transmitted.

Medicine is not just about exams. It's bigger than that. You can give exams all day long whether they're wanted or not, but you can't change the fact of patient rights. Listening is important not matter what walk of life you engage in. And it's obvious why-you learn. Besides you talk like the exam should be done at any cost. I don't agree at all with that, and I'll argue that from now on. Neither is that statement false information. Nothing false about the right to refuse the entire exam or any part of it. Some patients have the gyn exam and refuse the rectal. I don't need a medical book to tell me anything about sex. The medical establishment has taught women not to douche. It's the cleanest feeling I ever had.

The gyn exam is not that important and not that serious. Elderly people do not need paps/pelvic exams. Who the hell needs a pelvic exam or a pap smear at 70 or older? Even before then? Those exams are NOT for EVERYBODY! The ones who best benefit from them are women who are sexually active, childbearing, and those having problems in that area of the body. Virgins with hymens in place and are not having problems, have no need of an exam. That is comon sense and not false information. The desire a doctor has to do an exam, does not override the patient's right to refuse it. The cancer scare is not working with a lot of women. The exam should only be done if the patient goes to the doctor for it, because she is having problems. Under no circumstances should the doctor be making the decision.

I truly think I've said enough to you. More than enough. Another thing, Medicine isn't about winning. Doctors never win. Never. Doctors can't and won't save everybody. They can only treat. And they can't do that unless they are listening to their patient's.

Maybe you're not getting a course in ethics, whicch will one day save you from a lawsuit.

 

[Janice]

Originally posted by irisheyes
Janice...with all due respect...your ignorance is astounding. Get a clue and then get an education. PAP SMEARS SAVE LIVES. Any argument to the contrary is made in error. It is painstakingly clear that you have absolutely ZERO medical training and very little regard for the cause you purport to espouse to, "womens health", when you pass out your misinformation. I am sure you are familiar with HPV and pre-cancer of the cervix, and the correlations between age of initiation of sexual activity and cancer activity. Indeed, I am sure it was with the aforementioned in mind that you posted your recommedation for cut-backs on pap smears........cause hey...we all believe that it is a chance for a doctor to cop a feel....( excuse me while I am physically sick). Please take your ridiculous views elsewhere. Your 15 minutes are up.

You would like very much to think that pap smears save the lives of every woman who has them. Not true and you should know it. They are often misread. TV channel 4 or 5 in my state, aired a news report of a patient who had a pap smear that was diagnosesd as negative for cancer. She died, an autopsy was done, and it was found out that she died of cervical cancer. There was a very big lawsuit. A huge out of court settlement.

So don't tell me about the often unnecessary exam saving lives.

 

[Teufelhunden]

She's back!

 

[surgicane]

Originally posted by Janice
The medical establishment has taught women not to douche. It's the cleanest feeling I ever had.

I've finally figured it out....Janice must be a sales rep for the Summer's Eve people...

Seriously Janice, I just want to thank you for your scientifically unfounded, completely ignorant, and often entertaining posts. You bring a certain degree of levity and humor to an otherwise routine day of forcing unnecessary exams and surgical procedures on unsuspecting patients.

Happy holidays to everyone on SDN!

 

[skidmark]

Janice,

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Janice]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
She's back!

That's Right.

 

[Janice]

Originally posted by surgicane
I've finally figured it out....Janice must be a sales rep for the Summer's Eve people...

Seriously Janice, I just want to thank you for your scientifically unfounded, completely ignorant, and often entertaining posts. You bring a certain degree of levity and humor to an otherwise routine day of forcing unnecessary exams and surgical procedures on unsuspecting patients.

Happy holidays to everyone on SDN!

Well at least you think it's funny. Maybe you won't have such a hard time getting through med school, until you graduate and face a society that hits you in the face like a lead ballon.

 

[Janice]

Originally posted by skidmark
Janice,

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

You got another suspect? I don't think it was the manufactorers of femine cleaning products either. Where's your finger pointing?

 

[neilc]

Originally posted by Janice
...I don't need your pity! And cancer has nothing to do with age. It's lifestyle related or activity related whether you see that or not.

hee hee hee...so, cancer incidence doesn't increase with age? sure, lifestyle has a lot to do with it, but there are plenty of people living healthy lives that get cancer

cancer has nothing to do with age. i love it.

hey, if you don't want a pap, great. don't get one. but, they do save lives. for the few paps per year that are misread, there are thousands that are correctly read, and can result in interventions at an early stage. no system is perfect, but the chances of benefiting from a pap smear are far greater than the chances of being hurt by one...

anyhow, you might not NEED my pity, but you got it anyway. please, educate yourself. please. or, at the very least, stop spraying your ignorance around, like so much feces. seriously, you should be embarrased.

oh, yeah, and i am so, so thankful you shared your feelings of cleanliness with us. that is some valuable, valid scientific information. i think i may go purchase some summer's eve so i can freshen up!

 

[GeddyLee]

TV channel 4 or 5??

Well hello folks...i believe we got ourselves....a redneck...er white trash...er something along those lines. Or at least someone who is a complete *****!

No sex equals no problems, eh? Tell that to the 60-something year old virgin who I saw have a hysterectomy for her endometrial cancer.

Oh...and about doctors not saving lives...you'd be more than welcome to come spend a day in the gynecological oncology clinic and then we'll see how few lives docs save.

You are a pathetic fool who is too ignorant to defer to people with much greater knowledge than you when it comes to the issue of pap smears. Unlike your "women's rights" classes taught you, Pap smears are a matter of science....not politics....*******.

Janice, for the sake of all of us, please go have sex with multiple partners and refuse gynecologic exams. Then we'll see how you regret the folly of your ways. But don't go spouting off non-truths to your fellow women as if it is scientific fact. You'll end up hurting a lot more people than you think.

I mean, Janice...you're infantile...you're an imbecile!!! You don't believe anything doctors say. You think you know everything. Noone said douching didn't make you feel clean...but it does predispose you to getting infections. You can read multiple journal articles that show the evidence for this, and the pap smear debate. Why do you think pulling information out of you ass is more accurate than years of scientific research? Are you endowed with the holy spirit? does this information that you speak so loudly come to you divinely? What is your source? We can all site our sources to prove the usefullness of the current pap-test screening guidelines.

Come on Janice...play ball...go to your college library, do a literature search, and site us just ONE source that supports your claims. You're an obviously intelligent young lady. You should be able to do this....i'm asking you nicely...do it...for all of our education.

or...in your words...lay off the bullshee biatch, you donno watchube sayin.

 

[etoile]

Originally posted by cguidr4
Janice,

I am beginning to feel sorry for you. Open a book. It is obvious you know nothing about medicine. Please educate yourself next time before posting false information.

Cancer is AGE related.

No sex DOESN'T equal no problems. Non-sexually active people and the elderly are still at risk, maybe not as high as sexually active people but enough that they would benefit from exams, unless they have had a hysterectomy and no prior HPV,etc..

\.
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Originally posted by Janice
I don't need your pity! And cancer has nothing to do with age. It's lifestyle related or activity related whether you see that or not. It doesn't matter. See it anyway you want. You are the one who doesn't know jack. I haven't come accross anybody who doesn't have sex having any gyn problems. Nobody benefits from exams that for the most part, are not wanted and certainly not required. I haven't heard any medical students say they are required upon entrance into med school. It isn't false information that no sex equals no problems. Perhaps you have forgotten that the HIV Virus is sexually transmitted. No sex no virus or nothing else that is sexually transmitted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------



HPV is not the same thing as HIV.

 

[valizlost]

Well, a law is about to be voted in France
which will make illegal the choice of a woman
patient concerning the sex of the medical
professional. This is a great victory
of French doctors as the Head of the
National Council of Physicians has confirmed
yesterday in TW news.

Although I am not in principle against men in the ObGyn field, there is a B minor in this
project which the members of French Parliament
are apparently not aware of (since the wives of prominents are certainly treated correctly
by French male doctors). Actually, French medical
professionals are totally free in the questions
of intimity and modesty of their patients.
E.g. they are not obliged to let a woman undress
in privacy but they can (and do) watch if they wish . On the top of that, famous US medical gowns
do not exist in France which means that male
Obgyns (and their students) have access to total nudity of their patients. Of course, there
are women (not necessarily moslim) who care
for their modesty (see www.femiforum.fr for examples). Until now they could avoid the
humiliating habits of French gynecologists by
choosing a female practitioner. Now the law
will make this choice impossible.

 

[jayman]

That's really interesting...patients potentially being prohibited from choosing the sex of their physician. I guess it would help everyone, though...guys wouldn't be able to choose a urologist or orthopod solely based on sex, either.

Although the Islamic thing definitely will be hard to deal with over there if this thing gets passed...obliterating "sexual discrimination" in the medical field is fine, but infringing upon religious issues is another, especially over there where there is a strong Islamic population (who are crapped on in various ways, mind you, but still a large number of them). It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

I can imagine, though, that Islamic husbands may not let their wives go to male gynos due to their whole "purity issues" thing...perhaps the more liberal ones will. Hopefully it won't cause a portion of the population to be kept from being given gynecological care.

 

[oldtimer]

After reading Janice's mad rantings and losing several IQ points in the process, I've come to a conclusion about her. She's still a virgin!!! She has to be if she's so anti-preventative medicine for women. She has some weird idea that she'll stay disease-free if no man touches her. She may not get an STD if she refuses sex, but it defies logic to assume that she won't get cancer. Janice, please request a refund and an apology from the community college where you took those courses.

If a woman doesn't want a male gyn, it's her choice. Patients should be free to choose whomever they want to treat them regardless of male/female, black/white/asian, fat/slim, short/tall, etc. However, it's disservice to everyone when people like Janice present themselves as knowledgeable professionals and spread false information.

 

[ayndim]

I will be going into OB/Gyn. I am a woman and personally prefer women drs (read certifed nurse midwife) for my ob/gyn care. I have had 3 children with the help of cnm's. I have also had student cnm in on exams. All female. I would not allow a male (dr, nurse or mw) to examine me or be in the room. But that is my personal choice. And it will never be trumped by a med student or resident. And anyone who thinks a patient's rights don't come before yours please research on legal/ethical issues. There are some women who don't mind and actually prefer a male dr. and that is okay. On the flip side, if a male patient needs an exam of any kind and asks me to have a male dr instead, I would not be the least bit insulted. It is a fundamental right (in this country at least) to be treated with respect and dignity by drs. And that means choosing a provider you are comfortable with.

I like women ob/gyn/cnm better for another reason too. There is no way (IMHO) that a man can know what it is like to deal with a female issue. A woman can understand the feeling of what it is like to have an abnormal pap, period pains, or be told you will lose a breast or your uterus. I have no objection to see a male dr in any other field but I want some sympathy if I am pg (never a gain, dh gets the snip on Monday) or have an abnormal pap. Also, I doubt a man can know what it is like to be a virgin and still need a pap (evident by the Janice comments, if that is why). It can be very scary and a female who has been through it may be a little more understanding. Janice if you have never had a pap I beg you to find a cnm and get one done, especially if you are older. I personally didn't have one until I was 26 for the same reason.

Just because I know it will be asked why I am going to be an ob but like cnm's for my female care. I think that cnm's and obs who offer cnm-like care should be delivering babies, unless there are complications. I want to give the care that women deserve, whether there are complications or not. And I want to open a clinic with obs and cnms.

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by ayndim
And I want to open a clinic with obs and cnms.

Good for you! You will assume all of the liability related to thier (NM) services with minimal added profit.

 

[ayndim]

It is about making sure women have great care during there pg. I love cnms and thought about doing that myself. But what I don't like is that I would have to give over care to an ob if there were any complications. I think cnms offer a great service but alot of women don't know about them. I also think there are some great obs out there that provide excellent care. I want to be one of them. What I worry about is the rising section rate (probably largely due to the sue happy society we live in) and the episiotomy rate.

Does anyone know if you have to perform circs during your residency? Has anyone refused to do them and not got in trouble?

 

[dj_smooth]

Here in the UK the midwives deliver everything until things go south. Women rarely see a consultant for prenatal stuff unless they are particularly difficult. I am about to do 6 weeks in OB/Gyn and I am not very hopeful that they'll let us do/see deliveries. There is a very adversarial relationship between the midwives and doctors/house staff/students. Guess I'll have to do a rotation in the states to see if this specialty is for me.

 

[Janice]

Originally posted by GeddyLee
TV channel 4 or 5??

Well hello folks...i believe we got ourselves....a redneck...er white trash...er something along those lines. Or at least someone who is a complete *****!

No sex equals no problems, eh? Tell that to the 60-something year old virgin who I saw have a hysterectomy for her endometrial cancer.

Oh...and about doctors not saving lives...you'd be more than welcome to come spend a day in the gynecological oncology clinic and then we'll see how few lives docs save.

You are a pathetic fool who is too ignorant to defer to people with much greater knowledge than you when it comes to the issue of pap smears. Unlike your "women's rights" classes taught you, Pap smears are a matter of science....not politics....*******.

Janice, for the sake of all of us, please go have sex with multiple partners and refuse gynecologic exams. Then we'll see how you regret the folly of your ways. But don't go spouting off non-truths to your fellow women as if it is scientific fact. You'll end up hurting a lot more people than you think.

I mean, Janice...you're infantile...you're an imbecile!!! You don't believe anything doctors say. You think you know everything. Noone said douching didn't make you feel clean...but it does predispose you to getting infections. You can read multiple journal articles that show the evidence for this, and the pap smear debate. Why do you think pulling information out of you ass is more accurate than years of scientific research? Are you endowed with the holy spirit? does this information that you speak so loudly come to you divinely? What is your source? We can all site our sources to prove the usefullness of the current pap-test screening guidelines.

Come on Janice...play ball...go to your college library, do a literature search, and site us just ONE source that supports your claims. You're an obviously intelligent young lady. You should be able to do this....i'm asking you nicely...do it...for all of our education.

or...in your words...lay off the bullshee biatch, you donno watchube sayin.

Your a punk who thinks he knows women's bodies and what's good for a woman. Truth is you know nothing about a woman's body except how to screw it.

Some women have gyn problems and need an exam and treatment and some don't. You are a student and you feel the need to do the exam whether they want it or not. It's doctors like you that play a serious role in women not going for that rape ass exam in the first place. You think because you are studying to be a doctor that you know more about a women's intimate body than she does. Get your head out of the booty and your hands off the snatch punk and maybe you can breath some fresh air!

No woman needs scientific facts to make medical decisions concering her health care. She sure as hell don't need a student to argue with her about jack squat dick.

You voice your opinion about women's health and paps, and I voice mine about the same thing. Medical journals don't have the full story on nothing, because not every woman participated in any given survey or research. Not everybody does paps. The women who live to be well over 80, not all of those women had paps every year until they reached 80. Most women don't do paps til they reach 80.

Man later for what the hell you talking about. Everybody has an opinion just like you. It just so happens that not everybody agrees with everything a doctor says a woman should do. Because women do not agree with that. Decisions made on health issues of women by doctors are not always embraced just because it came from some medical journal.

By the way punk, next time spell the word bitch correctly. It is Bitch not biatch. Anyway, it's a known fact that some doctors use the gyn exam as a means of control deceiving patients into thinking it is required for a job. No jobs require it. None.

It's bull **** to think that douching predisposes a woman to infection. What you can't do is tell us women how to take care of our bodies and/ or our sex health. All you know to do is refer to some medical journal as if it's the holy bible. Women's bodies and rights are not about science, but about her taking responsibility for her own damn health and using some common sense about it. It's not about her handing over total and complete control to some doctor, and none to some student doctor.

Get off the board chump and let somebody talk and express their views without listening to your dumb ass.

 

[Global Disrobal]

At least the boy knows how to screw "it..."

Can we please have one of the moderators put an end to these jokers and their posts. It has seriously brought down the level of the discussions!

 

[oldtimer]

Except for the medical lies that she spews, I actually think that Janice is quite hilarious and entertaining. Maybe Fox will give her a reality show? A show much about nothing.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by Janice
No woman needs scientific facts to make medical decisions concering her health care.

Yes, it is really tragic when women make informed medical decisions based on scientific facts.

 

[cbc]

Your arguments leave me with these questions: why are you spending your time in a medical and ob/gyn forum if you dont think medical research proven statistics are important? If females know so much about their own bodies as you claim, why do they and would you ever go to see the doctor? And why don't you go and open your own medical school and teach everyone about female physiology, since apparently you know more than doctors about this topic?

Originally posted by Janice
Your a punk who thinks he knows women's bodies and what's good for a woman. Truth is you know nothing about a woman's body except how to screw it.

Some women have gyn problems and need an exam and treatment and some don't. You are a student and you feel the need to do the exam whether they want it or not. It's doctors like you that play a serious role in women not going for that rape ass exam in the first place. You think because you are studying to be a doctor that you know more about a women's intimate body than she does. Get your head out of the booty and your hands off the snatch punk and maybe you can breath some fresh air!

No woman needs scientific facts to make medical decisions concering her health care. She sure as hell don't need a student to argue with her about jack squat dick.

You voice your opinion about women's health and paps, and I voice mine about the same thing. Medical journals don't have the full story on nothing, because not every woman participated in any given survey or research. Not everybody does paps. The women who live to be well over 80, not all of those women had paps every year until they reached 80. Most women don't do paps til they reach 80.

Man later for what the hell you talking about. Everybody has an opinion just like you. It just so happens that not everybody agrees with everything a doctor says a woman should do. Because women do not agree with that. Decisions made on health issues of women by doctors are not always embraced just because it came from some medical journal.

By the way punk, next time spell the word bitch correctly. It is Bitch not biatch. Anyway, it's a known fact that some doctors use the gyn exam as a means of control deceiving patients into thinking it is required for a job. No jobs require it. None.

It's bull **** to think that douching predisposes a woman to infection. What you can't do is tell us women how to take care of our bodies and/ or our sex health. All you know to do is refer to some medical journal as if it's the holy bible. Women's bodies and rights are not about science, but about her taking responsibility for her own damn health and using some common sense about it. It's not about her handing over total and complete control to some doctor, and none to some student doctor.

Get off the board chump and let somebody talk and express their views without listening to your dumb ass.

 

[GeddyLee]

Janice,
As doctors we don't tell women what to do. We tell them what the medical facts are and let them make their own decisions.

Unlike yourself, most women when told that annual paps have been proven to save uteruses and lives make the decision to have the paps.

As far as douching goes...keep on douching....your trailer is starting to smell.

Geddy

 

[acute]

i'm a female MD in OBS/GYN since two weeks ... YOU WONT BELIEVE ...

most of the pt. say that they dont want to be touched by

medical students ... they also refuse general examination ...

doctors say that we can do it when we are in the OT. after

putting the pt. under compelete general anaesthesia.

 

[Global Disrobal]

"Acute" are you posting from the United Arab Emirates (UAE)? Is that where you're doing Ob-Gyn or in the states? Just wanted to put it in perspective with your post.

 

[acute]

ya .. UAE

i think going abroad would be

good for me to do training ..

 

[jayman]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Janice
No woman needs scientific facts to make medical decisions concering her health care.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted in response by Dr. Mom
Yes, it is really tragic when women make informed medical decisions based on scientific facts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nicely put, Dr. Mom. Janice, when the moderator of the forum starts rebutting your arguments and calling you a troll, the end is near.


Please leave with a bit of dignity.

 

[Galaxian]

You know, I was the only medical student in my group who got all the procedures, the deliveries and the pelvics. In the beginning, I used to be all considerate and ask "is it okay if I follow the labor?" but after getting shot down enough times, a resident(female BTW) told me to stop asking and not even give them the option, because they're having their baby/pelvic/surgery in a TEACHING hospital. After that, I delivered more than enough babies, and got pretty good at the pelvic exam.

 

[juddson]

Just playing the devil's advocate here - what happens if all women decide that they don't ever want to have a student examine them? Would this be the end of OB/GYN education as we know it?

I suppose the hypothetical can be dismissed by the notion that at least SOME women will always be OK with having a med student examine them. That being the case, do these women feel that those who do not allow it are "free riders" - which is to the say that the future of OB/GYN education must be borne on the backs of only those patients who do not mind a medical student?


Judd

 

[ayndim]

as long as they are female. Sorry guys. But be aware I know many women who PREFER MALE ob/gyns. And they don't have problems with students either. I have had a student CNM examine me and one observing my 2nd delivery. They have to learn somewhere. Thinking back I had a student (female) examine me at the local teaching hospital when I had PTL. I had to go there because they have level III NICU. Luckily I made it to 36 weeks (4 weeks at 5 cms). I let it be known when I went in I would only accept a female dr (the mw was on another delivery in a different hospital). I have also been the guinea pig for student nurses giving IVs or drawing blood. I don't mind.

I don't have a problem with women who don't want a med student. It is their body. There is no law that says they have to. And I think there will always be enough women who don't mind. Besides if you are a med student who will be going into ob won't you have plenty of opportunities as a resident. If you aren't going into ob then you really don't need it. I mean how many Radiologists are doing pelvics.

Just a thought for those who need/want the practice. Won't your wives/girlfriends let you practice on them. I would if my husband was in med school. In fact, I could probably find a dozen friends or family members who would let me when I reach that point. And what about the free clinics. Surely they would be thankful for the help, if you have the time or during the summer.

Just the thoughts of a premed student who now knows how to approach a patient when in med school. Thanks I have learned alot in this thread.

Andrea

 

[Galaxian]

The thought of doing a pelvic on my girlfriend is kind of creepy...that'd be a little too much of bringing the workplace into the home.

 

[jvarga]

I will start off by stating the obvious...everyone is entitled to their own opinion, especially when making decisions about their own body. If a patient desires a female doctor only, then attempts should be made to meet the patients requests when possible. As a health care provider, your duty is to accomodate the patients requests as much as possible as long as it does not compromise that patients or other patients medical care. You should not let the patients prejudice, religious belief, or personal preference affect you on a personal level...keep in mind, you are a professional. That being said, whenever a patient tells me that they would rather have a female doctor, I gladly point them towards a competent female colleague and tell them that I would still be happy to attend to them in the future if they ever change their mind. By the way, I only run into such requests in about 1-2% of the patients I see.

Many of the statements made by ayndim made little sense to me. I'll start with the one stating that students need not perform pelvic exams since they can do them during residency. When you graduate as an M.D. you are expected to be learned in all of the basic sciences and ALL of the clinical sciences (if you could legally be a General Practitioner, should you not then be knowledgeable and proficient with both male and female patients?) Depriving medical students of learning an essential part of the basic physical exam is, in essence, teaching them bad medicine and is just plain lunacy.

The statement that really sent shivers down my spine, though, is: "if you arent going into OB then you really dont need it [the pelvic exam]". Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth!!! The pelvic exam is an extremely vital and valuable tool for most specialties (including surgery, emergency medicine, family practice, internal medicine, pediatrics, AND radiology to name a few). Are OB/Gyns the only doctors that see females? Of course not! Last time I checked, most specialties (asides from OB/Gyn) are not gender specific. Seeing female patients is something all doctors will have to do. By the way, isn't the transvaginal ultrasound an extremely valuable and common procedure performed by Radiologists?

Now that I have cleared up those misconceptions about the importance of learning the pelvic exam (I hope), a little word of advice to those students having trouble finding "willing" patients. You should address this problem with your residents, attendings, and course director. They should be your advocate with the patients and should go "to bat" for you in trying to convince patients to let you examine them. If your residents take the time to appropriately counsel the patients on the importance of having students perform pelvic exams, then most patients will realize that you are there to learn and they will most likely change their minds. Afterwards, many of these patients appreciate the fact that they were able to contribute to the education of a student doctor that could very well be taking care of a loved one in the near future. A couple of minutes of discomfort can really make a difference in a students learning experience. By the way, no exam should ever be performed without the patients consent. Doing so can put you in some turbulent and murky ethical waters, so please be careful and respect the patients right to consent!

 

[juddson]

I'd like to address ayndim's notion that there will always be female patients who prefer (or who do not mind) male ob/gyns. I don't think this is at all evident, at least not in the numbers that would make the training of males meaningful. It seems to me that those numbers of patients who prefer or don't mind male OB/GYN's are older, and they feel this way, perhaps, because they have had male docs before. Perhaps I am wrong, but my guess is that younger patients coming into that part of thier life where they need thier first exam will prefer female doctors, particularly if the male doctor is increasingly not even presented to them (certainly this is the case, no?). The natural trend, then, is that in the future (say, within a generation) there will be very few patients willing to see male docs. This will lead to (1) a removal of all males from the specialty, (2) a decrease in the training of males in other specialties in the female anatomy, and (3) an overall deminishment in the standard of care for females in those other specialties.

Will the absence of male ob/gyns also drive down the standard of care in ob/gyn? I don't know. maybe. Not because women are not capable of maintaining or advancing the standard on thier own (of course they are) but because it just strikes me that a necessary diminishment of care will result whenever fully half the population is prevented from going into a given field. I've no doubt that the great influx of women into the medical profession over the last century has raised the standard of care across the profession, for both men and women. Doesn't it stand to reason that th removal of all men from ob/gyn would likewise decrease the standard of care in that specialty - irrespective of whether one thinks women make better ob/gyns than men do (who knows, maybe they do - let's assume they do - I still think having no men is bad for care).

So, assuming one is AT LEAST willing to entertain the notion that having no male ob/gyns is bad for OB/GYN (at least from a sort of specialty-wide view), shouldn't something be done about this.

Judd

 

[ayndim]

I know at least a dozen people who had males delivery their babies. One of the is only 22 and she absolutely refuses to see a female ob/gyn. In fact, I can only think of a few people who see female obs. So I don't think (hope) there won't be a shortage of male obs in the future. When I look in the phone book in my area the male obs certainly outnumber the female. Maybe that is changing. Women (and men) should have their choice of a dr, male or female. It would be a shame if male obs were pushed out of the picture.

I realize that medical students need to be trained in things other than their specialty. But surely med students get to do some pelvics and such. And I don't think a transvaginal is the same as a pelvic. And every time I have had a transvaginal exam (3 times)it is the tech not the radiologist that performs it. Same with x-rays. Do you know any radiologist that perfroms the grunt work? I thought they just read the exams. So if you are a psychiatrist and 20 years from now you need to do a pelvic are you goping to remember much, if anything about them from med school. I do think it is important that med students do some pelvics and such I didn't mean to come off sounding as I didn't. But honestly is six weeks of doing pelvics really going to make a difference to a dr who will never do them again. And if you choose a field where they are needed, you will be doing them again. I think exposure to pelvics is more important in their case. I am willing to change my opinion if I am wrong but could you tell me why a surgeon needs to know how to perform a pelvic or a radiologist? I admit the others need to perform pelvics. I absolutely never meant that med students should be deprived of doing pelvics. Of course they shouldn't but they also shouldn't worry if they don't get to do great numbers of them. Are there really any med students who don't get to perform at least 2 dozen or so of them. How many does it take to become good at them? (I am asking here, not being sarcastic.) If there is then someone at their school really needs to address the issue.

I can't imagine what would be creepy about an exam on someone. As a women I can tell you there is nothing sexual about a pelvic. No matter what was said before. I had my husband try to check my cervix during labor to see if I should go to the hospital. Completely useless in his case. He said I was barely dialated yet when I got to the hospital I was already 10 cm. I knew he was wrong because a couple of days before I was 5. I guess it was the head he felt. There wasn't certainly nothing creepy for either of us. I don't need anyone telling me you shouldn't ck your own cervix during pg. And I would let a female friend in med school practice on me. I don't see pelvics as that big a deal. I have personal reasons for wanting a female but I don't know alot of other women with that problem.

 

[bessybug]

Just to reply to the statement made asking if performing six weeks of pelvics would be important if you don't plan on going into a field where pelvics a performed. Who is to say that you are not going to change your mind when it comes time to pick a residency seeing that ob/gyn is usually done in your third year. What if you are D.O. who has to do a rotating internship? Do you think the attendings or other residents are just going to say "Well we understand that you don't think that pelvics were necessary in medical school so we are not going to make you do this one." no they are going laugh at you and ask you what krackerjack box you got your license out of for not knowing how to do a pelvic. Personly I would feel deprived of a good medical education if I did not get to do a pelvic. That is like going through surgery rotation and being asked to stay in the hall while they do the surgery. Then be expected to know how to do a lap chole.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Originally posted by ayndim

I realize that medical students need to be trained in things other than their specialty. But surely med students get to do some pelvics and such. And I don't think a transvaginal is the same as a pelvic. And every time I have had a transvaginal exam (3 times)it is the tech not the radiologist that performs it. Same with x-rays. Do you know any radiologist that perfroms the grunt work?

I am willing to change my opinion if I am wrong but could you tell me why a surgeon needs to know how to perform a pelvic or a radiologist?

Yes, radiologists need to be able to perform pelvic exams.

First, for the transvaginal exam: While it is true that the technologists generally perform the tranvaginal ultrasounds, if there is a questionable finding that needs further real-time evaluation the radiologist has the know how and the need to be able perform the exam him/herself. I have done this many times.

Next the pelvic: Radiologists perform hysterosonograms (cannulating the cervix and instilling saline while observing under ultrasound to evaluate the endometrium). I have done several of these as a 1st year radiology resident. This involves a bimanual exam to locate the cervix followed by a speculum exam and cannulation of the cervix. I was very thankful that I had sufficient training in pelvics when doing this procedure since there were so many new skills to learn while doing it that struggling with the basic pelvic portion would have been a significant obstacle.

In some locations, radiologists also perform the hysterosalpinograms (instilling contrast into the uterus while observing under flouroscopy). At my institution, radiologists assist as an OB/GYN does this procedure.

 

[ayndim]

I stand corrected. I never thought of any field other than ob or family/internal doing pelvics.

 

[Laela13]

Well, dentists have been accused of sexually violating their patients under anesthesia. Should we not have male dentists? BTW, why would a lesbias female Ob/Gyn be more likely to keep her sexuality out of the exam than a heterosexual male? Your anectdotal evidence of a few Ob/Gyn's who behaved inappropriately proves nothing! I'm sure you can find men and women in every specialty, if not every possible job, that have behaved inappropriately in a sexual way. Maybe we should ban all men from all medical specialties in an effort to circumvent possible sexual assault in the future?

I agree completely. Men should be barred from all medical AND dental specialities. And veterinary specialties, too.

 

[cbc]

so should homosexual females.

 

[FoughtFyr]

Originally posted by Janice
I don't need your pity! And cancer has nothing to do with age. It's lifestyle related or activity related whether you see that or not. It doesn't matter. See it anyway you want. You are the one who doesn't know jack. I haven't come accross anybody who doesn't have sex having any gyn problems. Nobody benefits from exams that for the most part, are not wanted and certainly not required. I haven't heard any medical students say they are required upon entrance into med school. It isn't false information that no sex equals no problems. Perhaps you have forgotten that the HIV Virus is sexually transmitted. No sex no virus or nothing else that is sexually transmitted.

Well seeing as how during my OB/GYN rotation I scrubbed in on the abdominal hysterectomy and tumor staging of a 76 year old nun who had been in the convent since her teenaged years with cervical cancer and progression to uterine CA... either you're wrong or she has to make an appointment with the mother superior!



- H

 

[SMW83]

Originally posted by MeowMix
The patient's wishes NEVER get trumped by the need to train students. It's my cervix, thank you, and as long as I am conscious I get to choose who sees it.

AMEN!!

besides when I go for my GYN checkup, I would be wary of the male OB/GYN because it would make me think of how horny he was to want to get into the profession in the first place.....I would be more comfortable with a female because they can relate to the patient more.

 

[zambezi]

I think that there are many good (and horribly bad) points that have been discussed on this thread. I think that there are two main concepts here: Respect and the right to choose.
As a female--I have been to both male and female ob/gyns.
The first was a male...not the best experience. He didn't sit down and discuss his findings. He would make comments and not explain them, which when you are fairly young and have questions about your sexual health is not a good thing. He was rough--also not good. So after him, I went to a female for a couple of years. She was ok. So, I finally get a real job and don't qualify for public health services any longer and have to pick a new ob/gyn. I went with a male. I picked him because of his reputation, which was quite good. I really like him. He is gentle with the exam (important because the exam is not all that comfortable). He is respectful. He explains things well. He asks pertinant questions. He is clinically competent. Hopefully, he won't push unnecessary medical intervention when I finally do decide to have a child. I guess what I am getting at is that male/female--it doesn't matter to me, as long as they are competant and respectful. I can see how women would choose a women due to the "they know what I am going though" thought. It makes sense--women can relate to women when it comes to female issues. I do think that a male can make an excellent ob/gyn though. I think that continuing to have both males and females in the field is important. I would not object to having a male medical student--again as long as he is respectful of my needs and decisions...I would want him there prior to the exam though so I could meet him. No matter how many times the exam is done over the years, it is an uncomfortable feeling each time--just remember that when you new people go to do them! I wish you all luck. I hope that you are going into the field for honerable intentions (which I am sure you all are...med school is too long and hard for other reasons). I think that the best thing that you can do to build a good practice as a male is have a good reputation...if it is known that you are good to work with, competant, caring and respectful of your patients wishes- you are well on your way.

 

[Sweet Tea]

Originally posted by SMW83
AMEN!!

besides when I go for my GYN checkup, I would be wary of the male OB/GYN because it would make me think of how horny he was to want to get into the profession in the first place.....I would be more comfortable with a female because they can relate to the patient more.

Gotta disagree with you here.

Here's an example. When I worked as an EMT, I cut a lot of clothes off a lot of guys. It wasn't sexual, it was medically necessary. I applied direct pressure to more than one penis that got in the way of a knife fight. Not once was this a sexual experience for me. Yes, the penis can be a sexual organ, however, there is nothing sexual about this situation.

Now to the gyn exam. I really don't care about the sex, or sexual orientation of my gynecologist. What I care about is that they're knowledgable, caring medical professionals who are interested in providing me with the highest possible care. After seeing both good and bad, male and female gynecologists, I have to say that ability to perform an exam is completely independent of gender.

If you're going to prefer a female examiner over a male examiner, fine. As long as your reasons are well thought-out and intelligent, that's fine. But please realize that men do not go into gynecology so that they can stare at vaginas all day long. It just simply is not the case.

 

[SMW83]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
From some personal experience and hearing stories from others, there seems to be a trend where male students are often being asked to leave during a Gyn visit. This seems unfair, especially to those of us interested in ObGyn. At what point do the patient's wishes get trumped by the need to train students?

Get a female who is comfortable having horny males looking at her privates...

 

[SMW83]

Originally posted by Sweet Tea
Gotta disagree with you here.

Here's an example. When I worked as an EMT, I cut a lot of clothes off a lot of guys. It wasn't sexual, it was medically necessary. I applied direct pressure to more than one penis that got in the way of a knife fight. Not once was this a sexual experience for me. Yes, the penis can be a sexual organ, however, there is nothing sexual about this situation.

Now to the gyn exam. I really don't care about the sex, or sexual orientation of my gynecologist. What I care about is that they're knowledgable, caring medical professionals who are interested in providing me with the highest possible care. After seeing both good and bad, male and female gynecologists, I have to say that ability to perform an exam is completely independent of gender.

If you're going to prefer a female examiner over a male examiner, fine. As long as your reasons are well thought-out and intelligent, that's fine. But please realize that men do not go into gynecology so that they can stare at vaginas all day long. It just simply is not the case.

but think of it this way...would a male prefer another male or a female applying direct pressure to his sex organ? whether or not it was sexual ?
(i hang around college guys so I know the extent of their intelligent convos.....)

 

[neilc]

the only people who really think that ob/gyn is a specialty for horny men are those that have never spent a day in the clinic.