Man bleeds to death after wisdom tooth extraction

[DDS2BE]

You might find this article quite interesting (courtesy of http://smh.com.au)

A man bled to death overnight after having a wisdom tooth removed at the dentist, a British inquest was told today.
Robert Braber, 59, was found dead in bed in August, the morning after the extraction, by his wife Jane at their home in Prestwood, Buckinghamshire.

The self-employed pensions adviser swallowed around three litres of blood and was found on a blood-soaked mattress, the inquest at Amersham Courthouse heard.

Jane Braber, 54, was not in court but said in a written statement that her wheelchair-bound husband went to the dentist after complaining of toothache.

He had the infected tooth removed, left the surgery with his mouth padded with wadding and had also applied a bag of frozen peas to stop the bleeding during that evening.

He went to bed thinking the flow had been stemmed, but his wife of 14 years said that, when she went downstairs to his bedroom the following morning, she found he had bled to death.

"Robert was lying on his side facing me with his legs out of the bed as if he had sat up but felt dizzy or weak and fallen down," Braber said.

"I could clearly see blood on his pillow and I later realised that blood had also gone through the mattress."

Pathologist David Bailey, of Wycombe General Hospital, said Braber was found with one litre of blood in his stomach and two or three litres in his bowel.

Three litres of blood is around 75 per cent of the total circulation in the body, he added.

Recording a verdict of accidental death, Buckinghamshire Coroner Richard Hulett said this was "an unusual and rare cause of death".

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[aphistis]

The only things I noticed in that article were:

1) Wouldn't it seem like common sense to not go to sleep while you're actively bleeding, especially if you've already been at it for hours to no effect?

2) I'd like to know how much this guy weighs, if 3 liters is 75% of his blood volume.

 

[grinningrice]

The only things I noticed in that article were:

1) Wouldn't it seem like common sense to not go to sleep while you're actively bleeding, especially if you've already been at it for hours to no effect?

2) I'd like to know how much this guy weighs, if 3 liters is 75% of his blood volume.

The average 150 lb person has 5-6 liters of blood, so this guy seems like he is fairly small, about 100-130 lbs. I also would agree with you about not going to sleep if one is actively bleeding, but he did go to bed thinking the blood flow had stopped. So he might have started bleeding after he fell asleep. Also just curious, DDS2BE, do you know if the guy had any health problems?

 

[Yah-E]

This kind of stuff would probably never happen in the US. Even as a predoctoral dental student, we were always taught to confirm hemostasis before discharging a tooth extraction patient. If an US OMFS did this, then confirming hemostasis would be basic protocol. Based on the article alone, there just isn't enough info and patient's medical history. This poor guy could be on blood thinning drugs for all we know. It's funny that most of these dramatic accidents happens across seas.

Nerve damage during extraction, I believe, laceration of IAA during extraction, I believe, but not confirming hemostasis before discharging a patient, c'mon!

It's unfortunate nonetheless.

 

[DDS2BE]

...Also just curious, DDS2BE, do you know if the guy had any health problems?

According to this article, he was "wheelchair-bound". He might have been on medications that cause blood clogging problem. I know Aspirin should not be taken for 3 days prior tooth extraction procedures.

 

[gatorf150]

the guy was probably on some kind of painkiller. When I got mine removed my OMS put me on oxycodone and I was a zombie sleeping for 3 days and don;t remember nay of it. So I wonder why the "wife" sleeps in another room on another floor and also why she would leave him unattended on painkillers. Very strange =(

 

[predentchick]

That is exactly what I was thinking.... "His" bedroom downstairs. Is that how they do it over there? Wierd! Sad story all together though.

 

[JavadiCavity]

If a patient's nerve is damaged during a tooth extraction, is the doctor in any way responsible?

 

[aphistis]

If a patient's nerve is damaged during a tooth extraction, is the doctor in any way responsible?

Like always in medicine or surgery, "it depends." If the patient can show persuasively that the dentist's care was somehow negligent or inadequate, the doc can be held liable. An example might be doing a surgical extraction without proper radiographic examination first. Sometimes, though, there's just not much that can be done about it. If you've got, say, a dentigerous cyst on a third molar, that sucker's gotta come out, and it might have roots that literally wrap around the mandibular canal. It's an extreme example, but it's a situation where the patient is probably gonna end up having problems afterward no matter how good the dentist is.

 

[toofache32]

According to this article, he was "wheelchair-bound". He might have been on medications that cause blood clogging problem. I know Aspirin should not be taken for 3 days prior tooth extraction procedures.

I routinely pull multiple teeth with patients on aspirin. It oozes more during the procedure, but nothing that pressure and surgicell can't handle. If you're gonna bother stopping the aspirin, you should do it for about a week, because the normal lifespan of a platelet is about 7-10 days.

 

[rsweeney]

which artery was pumping blood at such a fatal rate? hard to imagine bleeding to death from a root.

Most likely the inferior alveolar artery--IAA

 

[ItsGavinC]

That is exactly what I was thinking.... "His" bedroom downstairs. Is that how they do it over there?

He has a disability, so living on the first floor would make his room more accesible for him.

 

[delicious]

This kind of stuff would probably never happen in the US.

Dude, get off your high American horse.

How can you tell anything from that layman's article?

 

[delicious]

This kind of stuff would probably never happen in the US. Even as a predoctoral dental student, we were always taught to confirm hemostasis before discharging a tooth extraction patient. If an US OMFS did this, then confirming hemostasis would be basic protocol. Based on the article alone, there just isn't enough info and patient's medical history. This poor guy could be on blood thinning drugs for all we know. It's funny that most of these dramatic accidents happens across seas.

Nerve damage during extraction, I believe, laceration of IAA during extraction, I believe, but not confirming hemostasis before discharging a patient, c'mon!

Tell us something else about British dentistry Yah-E. Since you're such an expert.

 

[Idiopathic]

The guy was probably in liver failure with an INR over 3...which brings up an interesting medical question: if you know a guy/gal is ill enough to be wheelchair bound and possibly in poor medical health, would you demand PTT/INR test be run? Im not sure how much it costs, but I dont think its that much. An underlying coagulopathy could certainly cause such an outcome in a disabled individual.

Its likely this older man did not have Von Willebrands disease, but the way most men find out they have it is after dental extraction, and the way most women find out they have it is after they dont stop bleeding during their period.

Anyone ever worry about weird coagulopathies while pulling teeth?

 

[aphistis]

The guy was probably in liver failure with an INR over 3...which brings up an interesting medical question: if you know a guy/gal is ill enough to be wheelchair bound and possibly in poor medical health, would you demand PTT/INR test be run? Im not sure how much it costs, but I dont think its that much. An underlying coagulopathy could certainly cause such an outcome in a disabled individual.

Its likely this older man did not have Von Willebrands disease, but the way most men find out they have it is after dental extraction, and the way most women find out they have it is after they dont stop bleeding during their period.

Anyone ever worry about weird coagulopathies while pulling teeth?

It's my understanding that in anyone with health as messy as his, getting an INR is standard of care. Toofache?

 

[toofache32]

I don't remember seeing anything in that article to suggest he had liver problems. The wheelchair is irrelevant...he could just simply be too fat to walk. We can ponder all day what went wrong, but there's too little info in the article to be meaningful in my opinion.

As far as bleeding disorders, there's a mile-long list of reason's someone could bleed. Simply asking "do you have any bleeding disorders?" and looking at their list of meds (coumadin, lovenox, etc) usually will let you know if you need to check coags. By the way, just because someone is on coumadin doesn't mean you can't pull teeth. Most of the current literature supports doing 2-3 simple extractions (not impacted) with an INR as high as 4.0. The jury is still out on the best way to manage the bleeding because several ways work. You can pack the sockets with surgicel or gelfoam, or you can have the rinse with aminocaproic acid (not yet FDA approved in US...I don't think), topical thrombin, and sutures. Obviously they still have to squeeze on the gauze. If they have bleeding problems later, it's probably due to non-compliance with your instructions (I sometimes see them spit out the gauze as soon as they leave the room).

As far as which artery may have been bleeding...you really shouldn't be near any real arteries during extractions. But the bone marrow you expose can ooze pretty darn fast though.

Just for fun, here's my guess at what happened...he was in pain and took too much of his narcotic which made him too sleepy to bite on the gauze and then he bled in his sleep. Who knows.

By the way, today I asked a lady if she had any bleeding disorders. She answered "yeah...every month or so."

 

[larryd]

Yah-E since you are such an expert on this subject of oral surgery mistakes, Why don't you answer me this one:

How does a student who spends so much time and effort in dental school trying to become an oral surgeon-explain how in the heck this same student could extract the wrong tooth in their pre doc oral surgery clinic??

P.S. I graduated last year from Nova, and still talk to some of the professors and students (one of the OS professors told me about this unfortunate accident)-never saw you post anything on your clinical experiences about this.

 

[delicious]

Yah-E since you are such an expert on this subject of oral surgery mistakes, Why don't you answer me this one:

How does a student who spends so much time and effort in dental school trying to become an oral surgeon-explain how in the heck this same student could extract the wrong tooth in their pre doc oral surgery clinic??

P.S. I graduated last year from Nova, and still talk to some of the professors and students (one of the OS professors told me about this unfortunate accident)-never saw you post anything on your clinical experiences about this.

oooohhhhhhhh!!!!!! dis, hard-core. But as much as I dislike Yah-E, you have to admit that everyone makes mistakes [assuming this is true - probably isn't though]. I'm not clinical yet, but I'm sure I'll screw up bigger than this in dental school. Just you wait - and I'll tell you guys all about it.

larryd - no offense man, but if you did something like this to me: I would drop-kick your head!!!!! Keep the hating to verbal banter like me.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I have taken care of many patients damn near bleed to death from nosebleeds or hemorhagic cystitis with normal INR's. Of course they have platelet counts in the single digits and most of the nosebleeds are kids. Here on our Bone Marrow transplant unit we keep a chunk of salted pork in the freezer for epistaxis because our peds doc likes it better than anything else. But by that time we are sending them down to the OR to get the bleed cauterized. Maybe this guy had ITP due to some viral illness or or autoimmune disorder that he didn't know about.

 

[toofache32]

Yah-E since you are such an expert on this subject of oral surgery mistakes, Why don't you answer me this one:

How does a student who spends so much time and effort in dental school trying to become an oral surgeon-explain how in the heck this same student could extract the wrong tooth in their pre doc oral surgery clinic??

P.S. I graduated last year from Nova, and still talk to some of the professors and students (one of the OS professors told me about this unfortunate accident)-never saw you post anything on your clinical experiences about this.

I don't know the story behind this and I don't know where this maliciousness stems from. Almost everybody who does extractions regularly will at some point in their practice grab the wrong tooth. Sometimes it's a clerical error, sometimes it's just a lapse in concentration.

The only 2 guys in my dental class who extracted a wrong tooth were also the only 2 who got in to oral surgery...one of them was me. I told almost everyone in my class about it and explained how it happened, hoping nobody else would make the same mistake. It was a huge learning experience I'm just glad it happened in dental school instead of private practice.

 

[Yah-E]

Yah-E since you are such an expert on this subject of oral surgery mistakes, Why don't you answer me this one:

How does a student who spends so much time and effort in dental school trying to become an oral surgeon-explain how in the heck this same student could extract the wrong tooth in their pre doc oral surgery clinic??

P.S. I graduated last year from Nova, and still talk to some of the professors and students (one of the OS professors told me about this unfortunate accident)-never saw you post anything on your clinical experiences about this.

Hey, I never said that I was an expert in oral surgery. I made a mistake extracting the wrong tooth, but I took full responsibility on that particular case. Luckily, the patient was extremely and overwhelmingly compassionate. I learned from the incident and I will be counting teeth until the day I die. If an accident were to happen, then I rather them happen in my learning stage at the dental school.

I personally learned from this incident and am not afraid to admit that I did make a mistake.

I also personally know several OMFS residents from several OMFS residencies that have made mistakes, but that will never lead me to believe they are any less of a resident or future surgeon.

Mistakes make you stronger and more cautious as a student if you understand and admit what you have done. Live and learn. I believe I have done that. Good try though boys trying to bring me down. BTW, when we're dealing with something this sensitive, believe me, SDN is not the first place that I would like to divulge that type of info out of respect of the patient. Thanks for bring it up Larry!

 

[aphistis]

Yah-E since you are such an expert on this subject of oral surgery mistakes, Why don't you answer me this one:

How does a student who spends so much time and effort in dental school trying to become an oral surgeon-explain how in the heck this same student could extract the wrong tooth in their pre doc oral surgery clinic??

P.S. I graduated last year from Nova, and still talk to some of the professors and students (one of the OS professors told me about this unfortunate accident)-never saw you post anything on your clinical experiences about this.

Very classy.

 

[Yah-E]

Very classy.

Bill, don't worry about this guy, this is a guy that ripped on his own dental school. I wouldn't pay too much attention from him!

 

[predentchick]

Kinda funny how Larry was trying to make Yah look bad and incompetent. It was Larry who came out looking bad and Yah smelling like a rose. What are schools for? LEARNING! Go get some decency!

 

[delicious]

Kinda funny how Larry was trying to make Yah look bad and incompetent. It was Larry who came out looking bad and Yah smelling like a rose. What are schools for? LEARNING! Go get some decency!

Agreed, you're outta line larryd. Yah-E is a douche, but gimme a break!! Tell someone who cares. Mistakes are what learning is all about.

 

[lnn2]

Kinda funny how Larry was trying to make Yah look bad and incompetent. It was Larry who came out looking bad and Yah smelling like a rose. What are schools for? LEARNING! Go get some decency!

Smelling like a rose? I don't know what kind of rose you're talking about but I don't think that it smells good!
An OS resident at my school yanked the wrong tooth! mistakes happen, embarrasing, yes, but we learn from our mistakes. That's why it's called dental school and we're student dentist.

 

[DrJeff]

By the way, just because someone is on coumadin doesn't mean you can't pull teeth. Most of the current literature supports doing 2-3 simple extractions (not impacted) with an INR as high as 4.0. The jury is still out on the best way to manage the bleeding because several ways work. You can pack the sockets with surgicel or gelfoam, or you can have the rinse with aminocaproic acid (not yet FDA approved in US...I don't think), topical thrombin, and sutures. Obviously they still have to squeeze on the gauze. If they have bleeding problems later, it's probably due to non-compliance with your instructions (I sometimes see them spit out the gauze as soon as they leave the room).

Did one today, a 78 Y.O. patient, exo'd #15, no reason to D/C his Coumadin after consulting with his M.D. since his INR is regularly maintained in the 2.0 to 2.3 range. A simple exo, debrided all the granulation tissue, packed the site with Gel-Foam and a suture.

A couple of good tips for oral surgery and the anti-coagulation therapy patients. I'll always schedule them first thing in the AM, that way I can then call them first at lunch time and then again when I leave the office in the PM to make sure that hemostasis has been achieved and maintained. It's much easier on you to find out that you have a coagulation issue in the early afternoon than at 1 or 2 AM!

The only true coagulation issue that I've encountered so far in my roughly 10 years of doing this was in my residency, I was called to the ER about 2 AM to see a patient of a local periodontist(a nationally known implant lecturer BTW). This patient had had implants placed in the #'s 3 and 5 positions earlier that day (an asain female in her late 20's), full primary closure had been achieved, and the patient had been bleeding steadily for almost 12 hours when I saw her(you'd blot the surgical site dry with guaze and then you'd see a steady trickle of blood return within 10 seconds . The patients H and H was down to 8/25 (no pre surgical H and H values were known) and she had a platelet count in the 220K range. About 3:30AM when the lab called back again we found out that she had Von Willibrands. Problem solved.

The thing about this that really still gets me is that when I called the periodontist the next AM (or more correctly dealt with him through his answering service) he tried to basically "rip me a new one" when he showed up on his high horse to see the patient (she'd been admitted as a hospital in patient to be followed) figuring that the coagulopathy issue must have been related to something that I had done. Then, justice was served. Since he didn't have hospital privileges at the hospital, he came with one of the local oral surgeons who did have privileges, and happened to be one of my GPR attendings who really loved working with the GPR's and knew that as a whole we were quite a good group of residents. This oral surgeon, who is normally the most mild manored person you can imagine as soon as we got out of the patients room infront of me turned to the periodontist and told him "xxxx if I ever hear you try and blame a resident like you just did for one of YOUR major F^%& ups like this, I'll be the first person to testify against you at trial! And by the way, maybe YOU should let Dr J(me) here lecture you about coagulopathies since he OBVIOUSLY knows a He$% of alot more about them than you do!"

With that the oral surgeon turned to me and apologized directly to me for having to deal with his periodontal colleague and went and bought me breakfast where he told me about a half a dozen other other "incidents" like this that have happened to this periodontist over the years. The oral surgeon also told me that his best explanation for the periodontist acting like this all the time is that "he must be trying to deal with his SPS ...small penis syndrome" I still share a good laugh with that oral surgeon the couple of times a year I see him at meetings over that one!

 

[DrJeff]

Yah-E since you are such an expert on this subject of oral surgery mistakes, Why don't you answer me this one:

How does a student who spends so much time and effort in dental school trying to become an oral surgeon-explain how in the heck this same student could extract the wrong tooth in their pre doc oral surgery clinic??

P.S. I graduated last year from Nova, and still talk to some of the professors and students (one of the OS professors told me about this unfortunate accident)-never saw you post anything on your clinical experiences about this.

Not to defend anyone here, but if you think that you've never made a msitake yourself (maybe not as serious a one as extracting the wrong tooth) then one of the following applies:

1) you haven't done enough dentistry yet

or

2) you don't realize that your looking at a mistake yet


Any clinician will tell you that you learn 10 times more from a mistake/failure than from a success. And its the truely great clinicans that have the ability to handle that mistake and turn it into a success. There is a reason why its called the practice of dentistry, because if you ever think that you've learned it all, then you probably don't know any of it.

 

[Yah-E]

Agreed, you're outta line larryd. Yah-E is a douche, but gimme a break!! Tell someone who cares. Mistakes are what learning is all about.

Ah, predental @#%# talking big. When are you going to crawl back into your hole? Man, get some experience and wisdom first then talk! God, I still love to smack you. When big boys are talking, you should just listen.

 

[delicious]

Ah, predental @#%# talking big. When are you going to crawl back into your hole? Man, get some experience and wisdom first then talk! God, I still love to smack you. When big boys are talking, you should just listen.

Fa la la la!!!

Yah-E, you and me just don't get along man!! Honestly, don't take what I say too seriously. FYI: I am in dental school, but with my school you're right -- I would consider myself pre-dental cause I won't be doing anything clinical for a long time!!!

 

[Darksunshine]

Not to defend anyone here, but if you think that you've never made a msitake yourself (maybe not as serious a one as extracting the wrong tooth) then one of the following applies:

1) you haven't done enough dentistry yet

or

2) you don't realize that your looking at a mistake yet


Any clinician will tell you that you learn 10 times more from a mistake/failure than from a success. And its the truely great clinicans that have the ability to handle that mistake and turn it into a success. There is a reason why its called the practice of dentistry, because if you ever think that you've learned it all, then you probably don't know any of it.

I whole heartedly agree with you Dr. Jeff. I am so excited to finally get into dental school, but I have seen (and done) a fair share of mistakes in dentistry. (6 years of hygiene experience.)

Not a dental case but really interesting and SAD:

There was a case here in OR where a women had a double mastectomy BUT, BIG BUT HERE, the pathologist's MIXED up her slides with some one else's. So guess what: a healthly women was mutilated and a women who had cancer wasn't diagnosed. I can't stress enough that medical practioner's including dentists, hygienist, and nurses need to triple and quadruple check anytime they are doing something that could PERMENANTLY effect a patient. No matter how minor it seems, it is SO MUCH better to catch something instead of having the worst possible thing happen to you. And this mistake started with RECORD keeping. (As so many do.)

 

[predentchick]

What kind of rose??? Ha ha....
A big juicy red one is the kind I am talking about. I think it takes a lot to admit when you're wrong and not be prideful. Learning from them is the key and so much of the world tries to hide them and not teach from them.

 

[DrJeff]

I whole heartedly agree with you Dr. Jeff. I am so excited to finally get into dental school, but I have seen (and done) a fair share of mistakes in dentistry. (6 years of hygiene experience.)

Not a dental case but really interesting and SAD:

There was a case here in OR where a women had a double mastectomy BUT, BIG BUT HERE, the pathologist's MIXED up her slides with some one else's. So guess what: a healthly women was mutilated and a women who had cancer wasn't diagnosed. I can't stress enough that medical practioner's including dentists, hygienist, and nurses need to triple and quadruple check anytime they are doing something that could PERMENANTLY effect a patient. No matter how minor it seems, it is SO MUCH better to catch something instead of having the worst possible thing happen to you. And this mistake started with RECORD keeping. (As so many do.)

Nowadays when I'm doing an extraction, unless its a completely isolated tooth with no others around for 2 to 3 other tooth spaces, or unless I'm doing a full mouth extraction case, I'll take a grease pencil and mark the tooth/teeth to be extracted. And yes you can infer from this that I've exo'd the incorrect tooth at one point in my career (fortunately the orthodontist was able to still incorporate the OTHER premolar into successful completion of the case

 

[groundhog]

I whole heartedly agree with you Dr. Jeff. I am so excited to finally get into dental school, but I have seen (and done) a fair share of mistakes in dentistry. (6 years of hygiene experience.)

Not a dental case but really interesting and SAD:

There was a case here in OR where a women had a double mastectomy BUT, BIG BUT HERE, the pathologist's MIXED up her slides with some one else's. So guess what: a healthly women was mutilated and a women who had cancer wasn't diagnosed. I can't stress enough that medical practioner's including dentists, hygienist, and nurses need to triple and quadruple check anytime they are doing something that could PERMENANTLY effect a patient. No matter how minor it seems, it is SO MUCH better to catch something instead of having the worst possible thing happen to you. And this mistake started with RECORD keeping. (As so many do.)

I'm 60 years old and have worked in a high stakes/high stress occupation for over 30 years (real time 24/7 operation and control of electrical power systems). Foul ups in my business can have enormous consequences such as during that Northeast power blackout some of you may have experienced a few years ago (we don't let things get that far out of hand out here in the Pacific Northwest). Even worse is the possibility of frying a crew by ordering the closing of a switch at the wrong time. So when my world is going crazy during a storm with tens of thousands of customers wanting their power back on, our lines are down all over creation, and I've been working 40 hours without a break to direct the switching that will restore service to the customers as fast as possible while still protecting the lives of our crews I remember two things. 1: No job is so importrant nor service so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our job in a safe manner. 2: The word ASSUME can make an ass out of u and me.

 

[DcS]

When big boys are talking, you should just listen.

How exactly does one qualify to be a "big boy"?

 

[no-see-um]

Here on our Bone Marrow transplant unit we keep a chunk of salted pork in the freezer for epistaxis because our peds doc likes it better than anything else.

If the kid were Jewish or Muslim, that could be a problem...

 

[lnn2]

If the kid were Jewish or Muslim, that could be a problem...

well then use salted veggie. Bleed to death vs salted pork, hummm, a very tough choice

 

[no-see-um]

well then use salted veggie. Bleed to death vs salted pork, hummm, a very tough choice

Some people would rather bleed to death, but my point was that it shouldn't have to come to that. This scenario need not be likened to the hackneyed example of the Jehova's Witness who refuses the blood transfusion, but the subtext of your posts, perhaps makes it out to be.

The fault I find with your post is that you make a judgement on people like the decision is easier than it really is. If I didn't make the obvious point explicitly, I will now, it is not easy for some people of faith to go against their faith, or see themselves as going against it, even if it is in the best interest of their health.

Your post shows a minimal comprehension of culture and patients' values for their belief systems- systems that have been around for generations upon generations and have sustained life throughout the history of the spiritual existence of humanity. Do not dismiss other's beliefs solely because you are the one who is different, and choose to be, sadly, indifferent, and could not fathom a thought contrary to your own ways. And if it were not obvious to you, it would appear morally reprehensible to force a procedure on a patient that may go against his or her religion or belief system, if there were an alternative approach to achieving the same ends.

To see no other way of doing something, or as the poster before you stated- people obviously have their own ways of doing things, as the doctor who prefers to use pigmeat to treat the patients- is a truly absurd proposal for the future of medicine and/or dentistry. We could all either give the man an accolade for such a myopicly stubborn and austere paternalistic vision of his one way treatment, or we could denigrate such a provider, and praise the one who does see the whole field of what is out there in medicine and understands cultural values and alternatives. I would choose the latter.

And on that note, I'll end my post with the cathartic emoticon that you chose to use, since we should now see eye to eye, so to speak.

 

[tjb]

Some people would rather bleed to death, but my point was that it shouldn't have to come to that. This scenario need not be likened to the hackneyed example of the Jehova's Witness who refuses the blood transfusion, but the subtext of your posts, perhaps makes it out to be.

We could all either give the man an accolade for such a myopicly stubborn and austere paternalistic vision of his one way treatment, or we could denigrate such a provider, and praise the one who does see the whole field of what is out there in medicine and understands cultural values and alternatives. I would choose the latter.

And on that note, I'll end my post with the cathartic emoticon that you chose to use, since we should now see eye to eye, so to speak.

'hackneyed example', 'myopicly stubborn', 'austere paternalistic', 'cathartic emoticon'???? Yet at the end of your post you sign (Med School 2009, HOLLA)

Buda'ba'ding! Where am I? It's a message board buddy, not an essay contest. Yaah, you've impressed us dental students. (Dental School 2005, HOLLA)

 

[no-see-um]

'hackneyed example', 'myopicly stubborn', 'austere paternalistic', 'cathartic emoticon'???? Yet at the end of your post you sign (Med School 2009, HOLLA)

Buda'ba'ding! Where am I? It's a message board buddy, not an essay contest. Yaah, you've impressed us dental students. (Dental School 2005, HOLLA)

HOLLA!

Anyways, I'm off to brush my teeth. I have been remiss when it comes to that.

I never speak badly of dentistry. I like my dentist.

 

[lnn2]

'hackneyed example', 'myopicly stubborn', 'austere paternalistic', 'cathartic emoticon'???? Yet at the end of your post you sign (Med School 2009, HOLLA)

Buda'ba'ding! Where am I? It's a message board buddy, not an essay contest. Yaah, you've impressed us dental students. (Dental School 2005, HOLLA)

 

[TucsonDDS]

To see no other way of doing something, or as the poster before you stated- people obviously have their own ways of doing things, as the doctor who prefers to use pigmeat to treat the patients- is a truly absurd proposal for the future of medicine and/or dentistry. We could all either give the man an accolade for such a myopicly stubborn and austere paternalistic vision of his one way treatment, or we could denigrate such a provider, and praise the one who does see the whole field of what is out there in medicine and understands cultural values and alternatives. I would choose the latter.


Don't think that just because the AMA doesn't fully endorse this procedure it doesn't work. The physician that uses this happens to be Jewish and also happens to be a leader in his field, pediatric hematology/oncology. He is also a nationally respected doctor in the field of bone marrow transplant for high risk pediatric patients. Don't get me wrong, I don't know if he would use salted pork on his own child due to it being against his personal beliefs, but he would definitely use is on someone who did not object to it because he knows that it works. Of all the physicians that I work with this man is one of the most caring doctors that I know and I would fully trust him with my child. If you think that the use of pigmeat is truely an "absurd preposal" you should open your brain and try to believe that traditional medicine isn't always the best medicine.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Apparently the use of salted pork has been brought up with the Jewish church and it has been approved if the pork is not eaten. Here is a link:

http://www.infolink.ca/samples/HemoNews4.pdf

 

[shivalrous]

May the man's soul rest in peace. Goodness what a way to die!

 

[no-see-um]

If you think that the use of pigmeat is truely an "absurd preposal" you should open your brain and try to believe that traditional medicine isn't always the best medicine.

Actually, I am just the opposite. I am not a "pill-pusher" type of guy. I wasn't raised that way, and I don't think it is an absurd proposal at all if it works well. I've read the article and it is not something that I would rule out if it could save a life. It did cross my mind that the pig wasn't going to be eaten and that's perhaps one of the most valid arguments. Some people, due to their beliefs, though, may not wish any sense of impropriety.

If there's an alternative, it should still be there for those who need it.

I'm Jewish, and I guess that in the end, religion is what's supposed to keep people alive, not do the opposite and restrict one to the point of death. It is only people who, sadly, may accomplish that. Restrictions in medicinal alternatives is bad as well. So, how could I "believe that traditional medicine is always the best medicine"? I don't! But I do believe that alternative medicine should have its traditional alternatives as well, for those who are traditionally religious and are already 'restricted' (if one could even call it that) in certain ways. Why restrict them in another, when it comes to medicines- especially in a day and age when medicine and dentistry should be accessible by all?

Thanks for the link, btw.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Fruit Fly,

I am sorry if I took your post the wrong way but I definitely agree with your last post. This discussion reminds me of one very sad example that I had to deal with a couple of years ago. We had a little girl 6 or 7 years old who was in a car accident and both of her parents were killed. She suffered some pretty severe vascular injuries to one of her legs which required surgery but the surgens refused to do the surgery because her aunt and uncle refused to sign a blood consent. Her hematocrit was someware around 10 if my memory serves correct and the docs were expecting quite a bit of bleeding during the surgery. Well her uncle who had emergency custody was JW and refused the surgery stating "just give her some EPO" Unfortunately the little girl wasn't JW but as we all know minors have no say in their care. Well after a couple of more days she had basically lost all blood flow to her leg, was getting septic from her injuries and her uncle states "if she needs to go to god then she will go to god" By the time that CPS got involved and a court order was issued there was no chance of saving her leg, she spent about a month in the ICU and ended up in CPS custody, on top of losing her family. Religion is great for many millions of people but sometimes it can be force on others restricting care. But I do agree that patients always have the right to chose and that doctors nor patients have the right to chose for others.

 

[toofache32]

If you think that the use of pigmeat is truely an "absurd preposal" you should open your brain and try to believe that traditional medicine isn't always the best medicine.

Our perceptions are colored by how things are described...what about using rat poison for blood clots? Now that has to be malpractice (sarcasm).

 

[lnn2]

This discussion reminds me of one very sad example that I had to deal with a couple of years ago. We had a little girl 6 or 7 years old who was in a car accident and both of her parents were killed. She suffered some pretty severe vascular injuries to one of her legs which required surgery but the surgens refused to do the surgery because her aunt and uncle refused to sign a blood consent. Her hematocrit was someware around 10 if my memory serves correct and the docs were expecting quite a bit of bleeding during the surgery. Well her uncle who had emergency custody was JW and refused the surgery stating "just give her some EPO" Unfortunately the little girl wasn't JW but as we all know minors have no say in their care. Well after a couple of more days she had basically lost all blood flow to her leg, was getting septic from her injuries and her uncle states "if she needs to go to god then she will go to god" By the time that CPS got involved and a court order was issued there was no chance of saving her leg, she spent about a month in the ICU and ended up in CPS custody, on top of losing her family. Religion is great for many millions of people but sometimes it can be force on others restricting care. But I do agree that patients always have the right to chose and that doctors nor patients have the right to chose for others.

Such a sad story, tragedy really! I bet those @ssholes aunt and uncle never once thought about the kid's welfare. Now the kid is crippled and she has them to thank for it.
This is like the controversal story of pharmacists refused to dispense the "morning-after pill" to a patient due to his/her religion and personal beliefs. That's one f-ed up situation. Everyone has the right to his religious belief but to force it down to someone else's throat w.out their consent is wrong, especially as a healthcare provider. That's because the 1st Hippocratic oath for a healthcare provider is 'Do No Harm" "Primum non nocere"
If there was a way to make those sobs pay for what they had done, then I would do it for free! yeah, my religion is 2 eyes for an eye