Management of acute pulmonary edema

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leviathan

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Had trouble with the answer to this question, curious what you guys think the answer is.

Essentially a 60ish guy who has a hx of stable angina, comes in with acute pulmonary edema, in severe respiratory distress, HR is 128,BP 147/95, not improving after morphine nitro and lasix.

What would you do next? The options include hydralazine, MUGA scan, cardioversion, verapamil, echocardiogram, dopamine, dobutamine

I would personally be trying CPAP but it wasn't an option.

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Did you consistently crank up the nitro drip? If you leave it up to the nurses, they'll keep it at 10 mcg/min even if you tell them to go up.

The only way to get it done is to stand at the bedside and make sure they go up as needed for effect.
 
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Had trouble with the answer to this question, curious what you guys think the answer is.

Essentially a 60ish guy who has a hx of stable angina, comes in with acute pulmonary edema, in severe respiratory distress, HR is 128,BP 147/95, not improving after morphine nitro and lasix.

What would you do next? The options include hydralazine, MUGA scan, cardioversion, verapamil, echocardiogram, dopamine, dobutamine

I would personally be trying CPAP but it wasn't an option.

Was there a shockable rhythm? If so, shock. If not, then they're probably trying to get you to give inotropy to treat cardiogenic shock, and thus dobutamine is the answer. The guy obviously needs an echo, but since he's unstable you need to treat first.
 
That's a sucky question.

Yeah, the kind where you want to write in an answer like, "I want to do three things concurrently, you've only listed one of them, and I know it's not the answer you're looking for. Jerks."
 
What was this a question on?
 
Thanks for the feedback, this is a question for Step 2 CK. I forgot to mention that an EKG was done which was just sinus tach, otherwise cardioversion would definitely be the easy answer.

Wilco got it; dobutamine was what they were looking for. I just didn't realize you would give dobutamine to someone who isn't hypotensive or showing signs of shock/end-organ failure. I picked hydralazine to help drop afterload more since nitro 'failed' and his pressure was still a bit high.
 
Thanks for the feedback, this is a question for Step 2 CK. I forgot to mention that an EKG was done which was just sinus tach, otherwise cardioversion would definitely be the easy answer.

Wilco got it; dobutamine was what they were looking for. I just didn't realize you would give dobutamine to someone who isn't hypotensive or showing signs of shock/end-organ failure. I picked hydralazine to help drop afterload more since nitro 'failed' and his pressure was still a bit high.

Dobutamine is not great for someone who is hypotensive - dobutamine will drop your pressure.

When I first read your question - I was wondering what the rhythm was (I know you said sinus tach) because if it was reading a rate of 130s in a fib - then verapamil would be great to rate control or cardiovert since the patient is somewhat in extremis.

Otherwise, I would not do hydralazine because of the reflex tachy and you're already at 128HR at baseline. Hydralazine is relatively contraindicated in patients with CAD/ACS.
 
I forgot to mention that an EKG was done which was just sinus tach, otherwise cardioversion would definitely be the easy answer.

Cardioversion at a HR of 128 and BP in the 140's?
 
as others mentioned, this is an awful question. the correct answer is BiPAP with a nitro drip in the 30s/40s and then titrated as BP tolerates. this is essentially standard of care.

giving dobutamine to a patient in severe respiratory distress without either intubating them or putting them on BiPAP is grossly negligent. a b goddamn c.
 
Dobutamine is not great for someone who is hypotensive - dobutamine will drop your pressure.

It can drop pressure, but not always and usually after 10-20 minutes of improved blood pressure in the setting of true cardiogenic shock...then vasopressors can be titrated in...I think we have pounded the idea that dobutamine causes hypotension so hard into residents' heads that very few have actually used it and just say, "no - it causes hypotension".

In real life for the case the OP presented, I would agree with others: nitro, nitro, nitro, and CPAP/BiPAP.

I start at 200+ NTG drip +/- 200-800 IVP (or SL 400s while waiting for the drip).

In the case above, I would assume the problem is insufficient NTG and lack of CPAP.

There is no role, IMO, for hydralazine or - some God help us this holiday season - for Lasix.

In true cases of cardiogenic shock (post-NTG SBPs 100s or less; and sometimes, SBP 90 is just fine for those bad hearts - they can't push against much more), I still have no hesistation grabbing dobutamine...but these cases of true cardiogenic shock are rare. (and scary) In fact, I think in many cases of true cardiogenic shock not using dobutamine will just terminate the excitement a bit early.

On a test, I guess you can't pick more NTG or CPAP and have to assume they are calling this cardiogenic shock (I wouldn't in real life) because of the severe pulm edema and they kept the SBP around 140 so that test takers aren't afraid to start dobutamine (feared hypotension). My only hesitation would be the greatly increased arrhythmia risk with adding a bunch of dobutamine onto sinus tach 120s in an old guy.

In sum, I think Apollyon was right on the first response: sucky question.

HH
 
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There is no role, IMO, for hydralazine or - some God help us this holiday season - for Lasix.

Care to elaborate? I have used it plenty at our shop, and a quick UpToDate search supports its use as well, cautiously of course, don't want to leave them dry as a bone.
 
Care to elaborate? I have used it plenty at our shop, and a quick UpToDate search supports its use as well, cautiously of course, don't want to leave them dry as a bone.

I may have been a bit harsh (my unfortunate tendency when faced with draconian 'scripture' with minimal basis), but my point is that Lasix should be near the last thing in an EM doc's mind during such a resuscitation of the "sympathetic surge" CHFer or the cardiogenic shock CHFer.

There are cases when, after volumes status has been determined and the etiology of the severe exacerbation includes volume overload, but this is unknown at presentation and irrelevant (IMO).

The reasons why will require a long post I can't produce now, as I must - somewhat reluctantly - run of for some holiday event...but there are plenty of other posters here who probably agree with me and can explain much better than I can.

Cheers, HH
 
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I may have been a bit harsh (my unfortunate tendency when faced with draconian 'scripture' with minimal basis), but my point is that Lasix should be near the last thing in an EM doc's mind during such a resuscitation of the "sympathetic surge" CHFer or the cardiogenic shock CHFer.

There are cases when, after volumes status has been determined and the etiology of the severe exacerbation includes volume overload, but this is unknown at presentation and irrelevant (IMO).

The reasons why will require a long post I can't produce now, as I must - somewhat reluctantly - run of for some holiday event...but there are plenty of other posters here who probably agree with me and can explain much better than I can.

Cheers, HH

For not having time, that is a bit of a flowery and verbose explanation, which seems a bit obfuscatory.

In other words, when a patient comes in with a CHF flare, SOB, hypertensive, and in distress, you are saying to NOT diurese that person.

That is what I get from your posts. All I know is, is that I am not withholding the Lasix for a pt with rales 3/4 the way up. If you are, then just be ready to discuss with your medical director why you have patients you've had to intubate, because you refused to order a diuretic.

Your intellectual approach is admirable for a resident, as it should be, but your statement that volume overload status is unknown and irrelevant is just quizzical.

I'll tell you something - most of your CHF exacerbations are going to be due to fluid overload, missed medication dosages, and dietary indiscretion. If you can't figure out who is, or is likely to be, fluid overloaded within a minute, then your intellectual approach is failing you. The cases of new CHF will be greatly outnumbered by the already-diagnosed.

And what do you say to the patient that came to the ED short of breath, and is in distress, and says "Dr. Hart is my cardiologist, and he said I need more Lasix", after you say "We are not going to give you Lasix"? Do you say "We don't know if you are fluid overloaded or not, so we are going to give you nitroglycerine"?

And, finally, your statement that Lasix should be near the last thing in an EM doc's mind sounds much more like an IM doc.
 
For not having time, that is a bit of a flowery and verbose explanation, which seems a bit obfuscatory.

In other words, when a patient comes in with a CHF flare, SOB, hypertensive, and in distress, you are saying to NOT diurese that person.

That is what I get from your posts. All I know is, is that I am not withholding the Lasix for a pt with rales 3/4 the way up. If you are, then just be ready to discuss with your medical director why you have patients you've had to intubate, because you refused to order a diuretic.

Your intellectual approach is admirable for a resident, as it should be, but your statement that volume overload status is unknown and irrelevant is just quizzical.

I'll tell you something - most of your CHF exacerbations are going to be due to fluid overload, missed medication dosages, and dietary indiscretion. If you can't figure out who is, or is likely to be, fluid overloaded within a minute, then your intellectual approach is failing you. The cases of new CHF will be greatly outnumbered by the already-diagnosed.

And what do you say to the patient that came to the ED short of breath, and is in distress, and says "Dr. Hart is my cardiologist, and he said I need more Lasix", after you say "We are not going to give you Lasix"? Do you say "We don't know if you are fluid overloaded or not, so we are going to give you nitroglycerine"?

And, finally, your statement that Lasix should be near the last thing in an EM doc's mind sounds much more like an IM doc.

Completely agree with this attending - you do not hold lasix simply because you do not think there is a component of overload. The diuresis component of lasix is delayed whereas the pulmonary vasculature dilatory measures are far quicker.

Best cases I've seen and done are when they come in shock and are in florrid plum edema. You start with pressors (dopamine if truly shocky but start with dobutamine to increase cardiac output and decrease pulmonary pressures at the same time), start the nitro drip, titrate the MAP, then add on the lasix.

Nurses always freak out when you have them add on pressors to a nitro drip running at the same time - or pressors and nitroprusside combo attack.

Also, don't forget to listen to the heart sounds - if you hear a holosystolic murmur - think of mitral regurg (acute onset). This may be a pt fit for a IABP.

Call the ICU.
 
The problem with lasix is twofold.
1. It actually increases afterload initially, which doesn't help the acutely failing heart. You should at least wait to give it after some nitro.
2. Why do people give it to dialysis patients? Is this a hope and a prayer?

CHF is one of the reasons I like the nitroglycerin spray. That way, I can hose them down with it, and not have to deal with nursing throwing a fit about "how much sublingual nitro you're giving." They have it beaten into their heads that it is q5 min x 3 for everything, that if you ask them to give 3 at once they look at you crazily. It's the same if you want the nitro drip to go higher than 20, they act like you're trying to kill the patient. I try explaining that a drip at 20 will accomplish the same as one sublingual nitro, but take 20 hours to do so. This is met with blank stares of course.
 
The problem with lasix is twofold.
1. It actually increases afterload initially, which doesn't help the acutely failing heart. You should at least wait to give it after some nitro.
2. Why do people give it to dialysis patients? Is this a hope and a prayer?

CHF is one of the reasons I like the nitroglycerin spray. That way, I can hose them down with it, and not have to deal with nursing throwing a fit about "how much sublingual nitro you're giving." They have it beaten into their heads that it is q5 min x 3 for everything, that if you ask them to give 3 at once they look at you crazily. It's the same if you want the nitro drip to go higher than 20, they act like you're trying to kill the patient. I try explaining that a drip at 20 will accomplish the same as one sublingual nitro, but take 20 hours to do so. This is met with blank stares of course.

1. Yes, that is the perfect explanation regarding lasix and the after load increase. You definitely need to premedicate with nitroglycerin or nitroprusside.

2. I give lasix to HD patients simply because it is not only for those who make urine. Lasix increases diuresis within the gut, so although you may not be able to make urine, it still gives you some diuresis. This was per the cardiologist attending who had been practicing for however long as I've lived. They would tell me stories about how they would max out lasix dosing based on tinnitus.

3. Regarding high dose nitroglycerin loading - why don't you just do this? Nitro drip start at 200mcg x 2-3 minutes - this is just like giving 1200mcg of nitro sl. Then drop the nitro drip to 40 and titrate up as needed.
 
2. Why do people give it to dialysis patients? Is this a hope and a prayer?

As stated correctly above, if the dialysis patient still has their kidneys, the ascending loop of Henle can redistribute that fluid, sucking it out of the lungs and into the circulation. I, too, learned that in residency from some of the best cardiologists in the US and world.
 
2. I give lasix to HD patients simply because it is not only for those who make urine. Lasix increases diuresis within the gut, so although you may not be able to make urine, it still gives you some diuresis. This was per the cardiologist attending who had been practicing for however long as I've lived. They would tell me stories about how they would max out lasix dosing based on tinnitus.

3. Regarding high dose nitroglycerin loading - why don't you just do this? Nitro drip start at 200mcg x 2-3 minutes - this is just like giving 1200mcg of nitro sl. Then drop the nitro drip to 40 and titrate up as needed.

Sure, for long term maintenance. I just haven't seen enough effect for it to make a difference in management in the ED. If they're that bad off, just dialyze them. Much greater afterload reduction by pulling a couple liters off than the few hundred cc's you might get by gut dialysis. But it probably doesn't hurt, unless you haven't give any nitro first.

As far as the nitro gtt, I can spray them down with nitro much faster than the nurses can bring the drip. Plus, if they come in panting from EMS, I have the bottle handy, don't have to wait the usual 10 minutes for registration, getting the drip from the pyxis, etc. Since EMS here doesn't give nitro or CPAP, and they often come from places 60 miles away or more because we are a "chest pain center", I often need to act pretty quickly.
 
Cardioversion at a HR of 128 and BP in the 140's?
While I agree with you that I wouldn't necessarily be jumping to put on electrodes in the real world, licensing questions rigidly follow protocols and ACLS algorithms to a T. Hypotension is only one criterion that makes a patient unstable requiring cardioversion - dyspnea, altered LOC and ischemic chest pain and worsening CHF are other reasons, of which this patient has 1 or 2 reasons.
 
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I'm a bit confused why some of you are OK with giving nitro but hesitating to give lasix before determining volume status. Are we not also giving the nitro because the patient is volume overloaded and we want to dump their preload down?
 
I'm a bit confused why some of you are OK with giving nitro but hesitating to give lasix before determining volume status. Are we not also giving the nitro because the patient is volume overloaded and we want to dump their preload down?

I think we're mostly talking about the sympathetic mediated crash pulmonary edema patient more than anything. The point of nitro in these patients is to reduce preload AND dump down their pressures. These are the pt's who come in with SBP's of 180-220. Same goes for BiPap.

CHFers can generally be placed into 3 categories. the unstable hypertensive one (afterload and pulmonary edema reduction: nitro/bipap treatment), the relatively stable normotensive one (volume reduction including lasix), and the cardiogenic shock one (need inotropic support w/ dobutamine, e.g.). Most crashers simply aren't due to volume overload issues, they're due to the myriad of other CHF factors that place maldistribute the fluid and gunk up the pump and the pipes.



I think apollyon was a bit harsh in his pro-lasix tirade, although he's not wrong in pointing out that lasix has it's role in CHF management. To counter, I can't remember a single CHF exacerbation that got intubated in the last 3 years during my residency for volume overload reasons, and it's very rare that my ED will use lasix in the stabilization of these patients. I have yet to see the patient that delaying lasix use causes disaster. We'll use it once patients are stable. Some literature suggests that lasix causes initial afterload increase for the first several minutes of an IV push in the absence of other meds and that it delays afterload reduction of nitroglycerin when given in combo. This suggests that giving lasix early in the EM treatment of the disease may lead to more difficulty with stabilization, at least in your afterload mediated patients.
 
I just haven't seen enough effect for it to make a difference in management in the ED. If they're that bad off, just dialyze them.

The fallacy of anecdote ("I've never seen it"). How quickly can you get dialysis for a patient? Only when I was a resident could I have a patient go right up and be hooked up to the machine. The Lasix temporizes. The fluid still has to come off.
 
The fallacy of anecdote ("I've never seen it"). How quickly can you get dialysis for a patient? Only when I was a resident could I have a patient go right up and be hooked up to the machine. The Lasix temporizes. The fluid still has to come off.

Well to be fair, how many AECHF does an EP see in a day, week, year? When does the simple anecdote turn into numbers that mean something when it comes to practice?

I've got no real dog in the lasix fight though. I give it, don't see a downside.
 
I may have been a bit harsh (my unfortunate tendency when faced with draconian 'scripture' with minimal basis), but my point is that Lasix should be near the last thing in an EM doc's mind during such a resuscitation of the "sympathetic surge" CHFer or the cardiogenic shock CHFer.

There are cases when, after volumes status has been determined and the etiology of the severe exacerbation includes volume overload, but this is unknown at presentation and irrelevant (IMO).

The reasons why will require a long post I can't produce now, as I must - somewhat reluctantly - run of for some holiday event...but there are plenty of other posters here who probably agree with me and can explain much better than I can.

Cheers, HH

I agree with HH that lasix has a limited role in the first hour of most acute decompensated HF. If you accept the current disease model for acute heart failure as neurohormonal then to focus on diuresis is misguided, IMO. Most acute decompensation is thought to be from heightened sympathetic tone in the setting of poor cardiac performance. Lasix may actually work against you acutely by stimulating release of norepinephrine, vasopressin and activating the renin system. In addition, the vasodilation you get from lasix is prostaglandin mediated and therefore has been noted to be interrupted by Aspirin, which most of our HF pts are taking at home. Lastly, there is growing evidence that lasix, in high doses, may promote renal dysfunction. However, consider this last point with a grain of salt as these studies have been correlative only, causation remains in question from my reading.

The pts that generally have fluid overload as a primary pathophysiology are the renal players. Otherwise it is far more common for pts to just have crappy cardiac performance and require vasodilation and NIPPV. Please understand that I am not saying lasix has no role, I just dont think it is helpful in the immediate resus of a pt with acute HF decompensation.

With that said, how are most of you using ACE inhibitors?

Thanks,
iride
 
I would've done stat bedside echo + enzymes, 12 lead EKG, CXR, CT PE protocol, CBC, lytes, full dose heparin, aspirin, clopidogrel, oxygen, beta blocker
 
Well to be fair, how many AECHF does an EP see in a day, week, year? When does the simple anecdote turn into numbers that mean something when it comes to practice?

I've got no real dog in the lasix fight though. I give it, don't see a downside.

You miss the point. How many R on T phenomena have you seen - right in front of you, not ex post facto theorizing? How many cases of stone heart? The fallacy of anecdote is "I've never seen it, so I don't believe it".

Even if it doesn't work right in front of me, when I get the HD pt SOB, and they have kidneys, I order the Lasix.

On the flip-side of anecdote is that I know what I've seen - CHFers with rales, get Lasix, and diurese, feel better, and I haven't gotten to the nitro. With all the talk of the neurohumoral basis and so on, recall that there are people right at the center - not a study, not animal models, and not numbers. Indeed, the CHF is from poor cardiac function, but to discount volume out of hand seems shortsighted.
 
I would've done stat bedside echo + enzymes, 12 lead EKG, CXR, CT PE protocol, CBC, lytes, full dose heparin, aspirin, clopidogrel, oxygen, beta blocker

I assume not all at once.

And to play devils advocate:

1. You're going to do a CT PE on a patient with likely renal perfusion issues and hit them with a dye load?
2. Then you are thinking of anti coagulating the guy when he could be having a dissection which lead to a valvular rupture which lead to the acute pulmonary edema?
3. Then you're also going to add on a beta blocker in a guy who is acute CHF?
 
You miss the point. How many R on T phenomena have you seen - right in front of you, not ex post facto theorizing? How many cases of stone heart? The fallacy of anecdote is "I've never seen it, so I don't believe it".

Even if it doesn't work right in front of me, when I get the HD pt SOB, and they have kidneys, I order the Lasix.

On the flip-side of anecdote is that I know what I've seen - CHFers with rales, get Lasix, and diurese, feel better, and I haven't gotten to the nitro. With all the talk of the neurohumoral basis and so on, recall that there are people right at the center - not a study, not animal models, and not numbers. Indeed, the CHF is from poor cardiac function, but to discount volume out of hand seems shortsighted.

Completely agree with the majority of this attending's management.

1. If they have a kidney, even if on HD - I give lasix. The only thing I'd add would be nitro sublingual right off the bat before the lasix hits the heplock.
 
You miss the point. How many R on T phenomena have you seen - right in front of you, not ex post facto theorizing? How many cases of stone heart? The fallacy of anecdote is "I've never seen it, so I don't believe it".

But we're not talking about R on T or stone heart. We're talking about bread and butter AECHF, right? I take your point, even agree with it in it's purest logical point. I was merely stating any emergency doc is going to see a lot of these patients - dyspnea is a common diagnosis at triage, right? So we shouldn't derail this excellent discussion, but when does all the numbers of these patients that you see become more than an anecdote? It's not level 1a - you've not randomized anyone - but when you do things a certain way some things happen and other things don't, and you calibrate.

Even if it doesn't work right in front of me, when I get the HD pt SOB, and they have kidneys, I order the Lasix.

On the flip-side of anecdote is that I know what I've seen - CHFers with rales, get Lasix, and diurese, feel better, and I haven't gotten to the nitro. With all the talk of the neurohumoral basis and so on, recall that there are people right at the center - not a study, not animal models, and not numbers. Indeed, the CHF is from poor cardiac function, but to discount volume out of hand seems shortsighted.

Like I said I've got not real dog in the fight. We like lasix on the other side of the ED.
 
I would've done stat bedside echo + enzymes, 12 lead EKG, CXR, CT PE protocol, CBC, lytes, full dose heparin, aspirin, clopidogrel, oxygen, beta blocker

DO NOT BETA BLOCK THIS PATIENT IN THE ED. Sure, send 'em home a few days later on an oral BB, but if you beta block a patient in cardiogenic shock you just might kill him.
 
why not? he's tachy at 128 with pulmonary edema and normal pressures? i want to slow the heart, improve filling time so the pulmonary artery pressures might drop. is he asthmatic? COPD?

how do we know he's in cardio shock? dont we need an art line?
 
why not? he's tachy at 128 with pulmonary edema and normal pressures? i want to slow the heart, improve filling time so the pulmonary artery pressures might drop. is he asthmatic? COPD?

how do we know he's in cardio shock? dont we need an art line?

You don't treat sinus tachycardia with meds, you treat the reason the patient has sinus tach.
 
I would've done stat bedside echo + enzymes, 12 lead EKG, CXR, CT PE protocol, CBC, lytes, full dose heparin, aspirin, clopidogrel, oxygen, beta blocker

Seriously? For APE?

We see a lot of acute pulmonary edema (I doubt I go a shift w/o at least 1 CHF/ESRD who went off their meds/had salted fish/skipped dialysis), rarely have I had to intubate someone who I've immediately started on BIPAP and Tridil +/- lasix/bumex. Those that didn't improve with those treatments usually were either already too far decompensated, had poor mental status and couldn't handle BIPAP, or had something else going on (PE, pneumonia, bad pleural effusions, concominant COPD w/hypercarbia, etc).

Also, aside from starting heparin without knowing what the etiology is, at least it can be shut off. If this where a massive MI, you gave plavix in the ED, and then they were unable to stent in the cath lab this pt would be screwed since CT surgery wouldn't want to take someone to the OR for a CABG if they'd just been loaded with plavix.

Oh and you never give BB to a possible cardiogenic shock, unless you want to kill them.
 
why not? he's tachy at 128 with pulmonary edema and normal pressures? i want to slow the heart, improve filling time so the pulmonary artery pressures might drop. is he asthmatic? COPD?

how do we know he's in cardio shock? dont we need an art line?

Why would I need am artline to dx cardiogenic shock? As for the sinus tach, i'd be more surprised if didn't have a rate above 100.
 
This is a very informative discussion bc I just got push back from a cards fellow that he disagreed with the Ed's management of heart failure; granted he didn't believe/ never heard of the idea that the acute pulmonary edema is sympathetically mediated .
My story was known copd/chf at home and suddenly became sob. Only story we could get out of her. Bp 260/150 sat 75% on face mask with neb. Cpap'd her up to 92% mental status declined and got tubed nitro drip and Vasotec sbp now 160, ph7.01 co2 97. I feel like I failed bc we couldn't get a pressure on her for a good 3 min and I was thinking copd and by the time she got the Bp meds she was about to resp arrest, I've had people like her that I bipap and once their pressure is down they completely turn around but I was thinking copd and after she was tubed, the pulmonary edema cxr and elevated bnp and review of old records was diagnosis clear and recent crack cocaine use.
Anyway the teaching at my shop is afterload and preload reduction with nitro and ace then lasix if you want but I feel like lots of the pts I see aren't true fluid overload.
The cards fellow was adamant that lasix, bipap were the treatment. That nitro was like "pissing in the wind," and that I was going to stroke the pt out with vasotec
Anyone else's thoughts or literature is much appreciated. It was a kinda frustrating experience with the fellow.
 
http://emcrit.org/podcasts/scape/

In residency, my attending would routinely order bipap and nitro gtts on hypertensive CHF's 'full to the gills'. The thing he would do that would awe and scare the crap out of me is that he would open the ntg gtt wide open, off pump, and we would all stand there, watching the ntg gtt just glug-glug through the IV, emptying out in like 10-15 mins. Then a second bottle would be hung, and we would watch as the the pressure would slowly drop, then you would see the patient visibly turn the corner, dry off, and get more comfortable. Then he'd put the gtt on a pump rate.

When I was a medic, there was no bipap on the rigs, so it was ntg, lasix, mso4 and brutane for tubes. I cannot recall the last time I've had to tube someone for CHF. Bipap was a game-changer.

I can't wait until some crashing CHF comes in and I order the ntg gtt 'wide open'. I expect several hospital nursing/pharmacy policy handbooks being thrown at me when I do.
 
This is a very informative discussion bc I just got push back from a cards fellow that he disagreed with the Ed's management of heart failure; granted he didn't believe/ never heard of the idea that the acute pulmonary edema is sympathetically mediated .
My story was known copd/chf at home and suddenly became sob. Only story we could get out of her. Bp 260/150 sat 75% on face mask with neb. Cpap'd her up to 92% mental status declined and got tubed nitro drip and Vasotec sbp now 160, ph7.01 co2 97. I feel like I failed bc we couldn't get a pressure on her for a good 3 min and I was thinking copd and by the time she got the Bp meds she was about to resp arrest, I've had people like her that I bipap and once their pressure is down they completely turn around but I was thinking copd and after she was tubed, the pulmonary edema cxr and elevated bnp and review of old records was diagnosis clear and recent crack cocaine use.
Anyway the teaching at my shop is afterload and preload reduction with nitro and ace then lasix if you want but I feel like lots of the pts I see aren't true fluid overload.
The cards fellow was adamant that lasix, bipap were the treatment. That nitro was like "pissing in the wind," and that I was going to stroke the pt out with vasotec
Anyone else's thoughts or literature is much appreciated. It was a kinda frustrating experience with the fellow.

that fellow sounds like an idiot - though in patients that probably run around with high BPs at baseline (and while I can't 100% assume a patient that uses cocaine is noncompliant with medications, I'd safely bet $100 and feel pretty confident about it), the autoregulation curve for cerebral perfusion pressure gets move to the right, and if you drop them too low, you can give them a stroke, which I why I prefer nipride to vasotec, 1) because I find the effects more unpredictable than a quickly titratable drip, and 2) these patients often crump the beans, sometimes more, sometimes a little, but the ace-i in this situation is obviously less than desirable.

also given history of cocaine use and respiratory acidosis, in the setting of hx/o COPD, the patient probably had a significant AECOPD component going on as well
 
Let me second the suggestion to read up on the condition:
http://emcrit.org/podcasts/scape/
(Or listen up... he has references if you link through).

Regardless, points to remember:
*Giving a SL Nitro is like running a drip at 80-100mcg for a few minutes
*Lasix might help if they are volume overloaded, but it is a weak effect and slow
*Stone Heart doesn't exist
*R on T does
 
Let me second the suggestion to read up on the condition:
http://emcrit.org/podcasts/scape/
(Or listen up... he has references if you link through).

Regardless, points to remember:
*Giving a SL Nitro is like running a drip at 80-100mcg for a few minutes
*Lasix might help if they are volume overloaded, but it is a weak effect and slow
*Stone Heart doesn't exist
*R on T does

How slow is slow? The studies on Lasix were done 40 years ago, when it was new. Published numbers for onset are between 5 minutes and 30 minutes - I don't know that you could get quicker. Anecdotally, I saw more than one patient urinate on the stretcher after getting Lasix prehospital, with about 15 minutes between them. And weak effect? How weak is weak? Volume overloaded, logically, means taking fluid off. If you have a pt that is volume overloaded and not on dialysis, what is your policy for getting that fluid out? The NTG and CPAP just redistribute it. If you depend on the body to then take care of it, that's 1mL/min. Doesn't chemical diuresis exceed that?

As for stone heart, yes, it does exist, nothwithstanding the study published from your program when you were a resident; however, it is affirmatively seen in cardiac surgery. The study to which you allude (by inference and lack of presenting anything besides a statement - abstract here) showed that calcium administration in dig toxic patients did not lead to arrhythmia in the first hour (23 patients of a total of 159), although 5 of 23 that got calcium did die. The authors only felt that 3/5 were due to dig toxicity, though.

My stats skills are weak, so, although close, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
Hey, I don't argue with the apparent logic of giving Lasix to someone in heart failure. My brain says it makes sense that diuresing the volume overloaded CHFer is a good idea. However, everything I am reading from the "smart guys" is telling me that the physiology isn't that simple.

I think lasix makes the most sense in the gradual onset, mildly hypertensive, visibly edematous patient. The one that had 3 servings of ham and forget their lasix for 3 days and is a bit winded.

Alternatively, I think Nitrates and BiPAP (maybe ACE-I?) makes more sense in (i) patients with extremely high SBP and sudden onset symptoms and also in (ii) patients with CP that sounds like ACS.

Patients with pulmonary edema and hypotension d/t acute cardiogenic shock are a mess, but I would argue lasix isn't good for these people either.

Anyway, in the majority of heart failure patients I see, I end up giving both medications (lasix and nitrates).

And since you want references:
(1) Cotter G, Metzkor E, Kaluski E et al. Randomised trial of high-dose isosorbide dinitrate plus low-dose furosemide versus high-dose furosemide plus low-dose isosorbide dinitrate in severe pulmonary oedema. Lancet 1998; 351:389-93.
"high-dose isosorbide dinitrate, given as repeated intravenous boluses after low-dose intravenous furosemide, is safe and effective in controlling severe pulmonary oedema. This treatment regimen is more effective than high-dose furosemide with low-dose isosorbide nitrate in terms of need for mechanical ventilation and frequency of myocardial infarction."

And excuse the extensive cut-and-past here :)
(2)Am J Med. 2006 Dec;119(12 Suppl 1):S26-36.
Practical applications of intravenous diuretic therapy in decompensated heart failure.
Cleland JG, Coletta A, Witte K.
"RANDOMIZED CONTROLLED TRIALS OF DIURETICS
Two prospective, randomized trials, both conducted nearly 20 years ago, have evaluated the immediate hemodynamic effects of IV diuretics in patients with heart failure (HF) secondary to myocardial infarction.9, 10 In the first trial, Verma and associates[10] compared the effects of an IV diuretic (furosemide, 1 mg/kg), a venodilator (isosorbide dinitrate, 50 to 200 &#956;g/kg per hr), an arteriolar dilator (hydralazine, 0.15 mg/kg), and a positive inotropic agent (prenalterol, 50 to 200 &#956;g/kg per hr) as first-line therapy in 48 male subjects with left ventricular dysfunction after acute myocardial infarction. Both furosemide and isosorbide dinitrate reduced left ventricular filling pressure (furosemide by &#8722;4 mm Hg, isosorbide dinitrate by &#8722;6 mm Hg; both P <0.01) without affecting cardiac output or heart rate. In contrast, both hydralazine and prenalterol increased cardiac output and heart rate but had less effect on left ventricular filling pressure (&#8211;2 mm Hg for both drugs; P <0.05). In the second trial, Hutton and colleagues[9] compared the effects of IV furosemide (0.5 mg/kg) and isosorbide 5-mononitrate (15 mg) at the time of routine cardiac catheterization in an unspecified number of patients with left ventricular dysfunction secondary to myocardial infarction. Unlike the first trial, in this trial furosemide induced acute vasoconstriction (PCWP, +6 mm Hg; systolic blood pressure, +20 mm Hg) with a reduction in cardiac output (&#8722;0.3 L/min). In contrast, isosorbide 5-mononitrate maintained cardiac output (+0.3 L/min) while reducing both PCWP (&#8722;22 mm Hg) and systolic blood pressure (&#8722;14 mm Hg). Of note, these trials were too small to assess morbidity or mortality.

Cotter and coworkers[11] assessed the effects of diuretics and nitrates in 104 patients presenting to mobile emergency units with pulmonary edema and signs of DHF. Patients were randomly assigned to treatment with either a low-dose diuretic (furosemide, 40 mg) plus a high-dose nitrate (isosorbide dinitrate, 3-mg bolus every 5 minutes) or a high-dose diuretic (furosemide, 40 mg followed by 80-mg bolus every 15 minutes) plus a low-dose nitrate (isosorbide dinitrate, 1 mg/hr and increased by 1 mg/hr every 10 minutes), and therapy was continued until arterial oxygen saturation was >96% or mean arterial blood pressure had decreased by >30% or was <90 mm Hg. In this trial, the use of high-dose diuretics plus low-dose nitrates was associated with a trend toward increased mortality (6% vs. 2%; P = 0.61) and significant increases in the development of myocardial infarction (37% vs. 17%; P = 0.047), the need for mechanical ventilation (40% vs. 13%; P = 0.004), and the combined end point of death, myocardial infarction, or mechanical ventilation (46% vs. 25%; P = 0.041) compared with the use of low-dose diuretics plus high-dose nitrates. However, these data are inconsistent with the experience of others in the general population with acute HF and may reflect only the experience in a small group of exceptionally sick patients. Mechanical ventilation is used for only a small minority of patients with pulmonary edema in most clinical practice, and it is not the experience of others that myocardial infarction develops as a consequence, as opposed to a cause, of DHF.

Although minimal and contradictory evidence exists, IV diuretic therapy is generally accepted for the treatment of patients with DHF; future assessment of this therapy in large-scale, randomized, controlled clinical trials will be difficult.[4] This article reviews what is currently known about the use of diuretics in patients with DHF and makes suggestions regarding the management of patients with diuretic resistance."
and
"POTENTIAL DELETERIOUS EFFECTS OF INTRAVENOUS DIURETICS
Diuretics, and especially their overuse, produce several deleterious effects that can influence clinical outcomes. A frequent consequence of diuretic therapy is electrolyte disturbances. 4, 6, 13, 20, 22 Loop diuretics increase urinary excretion of potassium, magnesium, and calcium, reducing total body stores of these essential cations, causing secondary hyperparathyroidism, and potentially increasing the risk of arrhythmic mortality.20, 22, 33, 34 Patients with advanced HF and long-term furosemide usage have elevated parathyroid hormone levels and associated moderate-to-marked reductions in bone mineral density.[34] In addition, reduction in cytosolic free magnesium increases intracellular calcium loading, and reduction of magnesium in circulating mononuclear cells produces a proinflammatory phenotype.[34]

Diuretics can cause intravascular volume depletion, leading to hypotension, diminished cardiac output, reduced glomerular filtration rate (GFR), and renal dysfunction.4, 13, 22, 26, 35, 36, 37, 38 In a prospective, randomized evaluation of 33 patients in the intensive care unit who had pulmonary edema or fluid overload, aggressive diureses with either bolus or continuous-infusion furosemide therapy produced a significant reduction in mean arterial pressure (bolus, &#8722;13 mm Hg; 95% confidence interval [CI], &#8722;5 to &#8722;21 mm Hg; and continuous infusion: &#8722;16 mm Hg; 95% CI, &#8722;9 to &#8722;24 mm Hg) and an increase in mean serum creatinine levels (bolus, +0.23 mg/dL; 95% CI, +0.01 to +0.45 mg/dL; and continuous infusion, +0.14 mg/dL; 95% CI, &#8722;0.03 to +0.31 mg/dL [1 mg/dL = 88.4 &#956;mol/L]).[38] In 20 patients with severe HF, a continuous infusion of furosemide (mean daily dose, 690 mg) produced a 5% increase in mean serum creatinine level (P <0.01).[36] In 20 subjects with refractory HF, use of medium-dose (5 mg/kg per day) and high-dose (10 mg/kg per day) IV furosemide was associated with 14% ± 8% and 15% ± 6% reductions in mean arterial pressure and 41% ± 23% and 42% ± 23% reductions in creatinine clearance, respectively, with the reduction in creatinine clearance correlated directly with the reduction in blood pressure (r = 0.7; P = 0.007).[26] In a randomized, double-blind evaluation of patients with symptomatic HF, IV administration of 80 mg furosemide produced a 7.4-mm Hg decline in systolic blood pressure and a 17.3% decline in GFR, compared with a 1.4-mm Hg increase in systolic blood pressure and a 2.5% increase in GFR following IV placebo administration.[37] Finally, in a nested case-control study of 382 subjects hospitalized for HF, use of loop diuretics was associated with a significant increase in the risk of worsening renal function (odds ratio [OR], 1.04 per 20-mg furosemide equivalent received during the preceding day; 95% CI, 1.004 to 1.076; P = 0.03).[35]

Diuretics cause adverse neurohormonal activation.39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44 In 10 patients with HF, mean plasma renin, aldosterone, and angiotensin II activity increased within 30 minutes following a 1-mg/kg bolus of IV furosemide (although only the change in angiotensin II activity was statistically significant), and these elevations persisted in 4 patients receiving chronic furosemide administration.[42] In 15 patients with chronic HF, furosemide produced acute vasoconstriction with significant increases in plasma renin and norepinephrine levels within 10 minutes of IV administration (Figure 3).[44] Similarly, in 8 patients with NYHA class II to III HF, plasma renin activity increased 170%, aldosterone activity increased 40%, and norepinephrine activity increased 40% (all P <0.01) in the 2-hour period immediately following IV administration of furosemide (mean dose, 248 mg).[39] These hormone levels remained elevated for the next 4 days and were associated with fluid retention, leading to the return of elevated filling pressures, and reoccurrence of pulmonary congestion.[45] "

Or we could just agree with the Best Bets review (http://www.bestbets.org/bets/bet.php?id=937) which concludes: "Nitrates and diuretics both have beneficial effects in acute heart failure. Nitrates have been shown to have more benefit than diuretics, but a combination of the two drugs is ideal. "
 
Oh, and I don't think we disagree. I just don't want the med studs thinking that CHF = Lasix = BUN + Age end of story.
 
Oh, and I don't think we disagree. I just don't want the med studs thinking that CHF = Lasix = BUN + Age end of story.

I concur. Quite frankly, the idea of NTG and CPAP without Lasix sounds intriguing to me, although, not having done it with a watchful eye overlooking me, I am not so deft with it, and I don't want to be cavalier.

As such, my cowardice will likely maintain my order of 40 to 80mg.

(It's all academic (ironically) for me right now, as I am out of a job anyhow - my hospital system went Tango Uniform last week - it was up in the air, until it all deflated. I do have to thank the many SDNers that hooked me up with leads. You guys rock!)
 
And with regards to stone heart, thanks for the link, that was the exact study I was thinking about. Not from my institute, but from the across-the-street hospital (Brigham) and apparently Arizona.

Once again, forgive my extensive quoting from the article:
"We set 1 h as the time span during which we would expect to see a life-threatening dysrhythmia after calcium administration. We chose 1 h based on earlier work that demonstrated the additive or synergistic relationship between intravenous calcium and cardiac glycoside administration ( [8] , [10] and [11] ). Excess intracellular calcium induces delays in the after-depolarization during the fourth phase of an action potential (5). This effect, if it is to be observed, should occur relatively soon after the intravenous administration of calcium. Not only did we not see any significant dysrhythmias at 1 h, we did not see any within 4 h of calcium administration.

To our knowledge, there have been only five case reports of patients who have sustained fatal dysrhythmias after receiving calcium while being on a cardiac glycoside. The circumstances were too confounded for any inference of causality. In the original paper by Bower and Mengle, 2 patients were presented (8). The first case occurred in 1933, and involved a 55-year-old man with bilateral femur fractures who was felt to have either multiple myeloma or hyperparathyroidism. He underwent a right-sided thyroidectomy and "possible" parathyroidectomy. This patient had received 8.5 cc of Digalen (a purified digitalis preparation available from 1904&#8211;1964) over 20 h. On the second post-operative day, he was noted to have a fine tremor in both hands, which was felt to possibly be "beginning tetany." The patient was given 10 cc of 10% calcium chloride intravenously, and shortly thereafter died. The second case occurred in 1935, and involved a previously healthy 32-year-old woman who presented with nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain. She underwent a cholecystectomy, during which a single gallstone and hemorrhagic bile were found. On post-operative day 2, she received several doses of Digalen for a heart rate of 100 beats/min and a blood pressure of 90/50 mm Hg. By the sixth post-operative day, she had received approximately 15 cc of Digalen, and the heart rate was 120 beats/min. More than 24 h after the last dose of Digalen, she received 10 cc of 10% calcium gluconate through a peripheral intravenous line for rate control. Approximately 2 min later, the pupils were dilated, and "she had a generalized convulsion with only slight muscular fibrillations." She was pronounced dead shortly thereafter. Neither of these patients had any documentation of the type of dysrhythmia, and there was no mention of any cardiac-glycoside toxic symptoms (i.e., nausea, vomiting, anorexia, fatigue, visual disturbances, etc.) before the administration of calcium gluconate. Serum levels of Digalen were not available.

Two additional cases were reported by Shrager in 1957, in which 2 patients each received 10 cc of 10% calcium gluconate to treat hypocalcemia (13). Both patients were "fully digitalized." We interpret the term "fully digitalized" to imply adequate rate control, but this is just speculation on our part. The first patient died approximately 10 min after the calcium was administered, and the second patient developed bigeminy and died 3 days after the first administration of calcium. The fifth case involved an 88-year-old woman who presented complaining of weakness for 3 days (14). She had renal insufficiency, a serum potassium concentration of 6.4 mEq/L, and a digoxin level of 6.2 ng/mL. Five hours after arrival she received 30 g kayexalate per rectum, 10 units intravenous insulin, ½ amp of intravenous 50% dextrose, and 1 amp of calcium chloride. She was found asystolic 15 min later. Although three of these five case reports indicate a temporal association between the administration of calcium and death, none provides good evidence for a cause-and-effect relationship.

There have previously been other case reports of patients receiving intravenous calcium for unrecognized digoxin toxicity without any adverse effects ( [15] and [16] ). In addition, animal studies mimicking acute digoxin toxicity have failed to demonstrate any adverse outcomes (4). The previous animal studies that indicated increased toxicity are not generalizable to clinical practice. In the study by Gold and Edwards, as well as the study by Nola and colleagues, the animals were made hypercalcemic before the administration of any cardiac glycoside ( [9] and [12] ). In the study by Nola, a synergistic effect between calcium and digoxin was observed only once serum calcium levels were > 15 mEq/L (20 mg/dL). No increased toxic effect was observed with lower serum calcium levels. Lown and colleagues reviewed the relationship between calcium and digoxin and found no relationship (17). They report that digitalis toxic dysrhythmias were only precipitated by calcium in the setting of severe hypercalcemia (up to 23 mEq/L), once digoxin was infused at up to 95% of the "toxic dose." Although they did not define "toxic dose," we presume it meant the LD50."

Reference 15 there is:
15 F. Fenton, A.J. Smally and J. Laut, Hyperkalemia and digoxin toxicity in a patient with kidney failure. Ann Emerg Med, 28 (1996), pp. 440&#8211;441. Article | PDF (176 K) | | View Record in Scopus | | Cited By in Scopus (7)
In which they have a bradycardic patient who is identified as hyperkalemic, gets typical therapy including multiple rounds of IV calcium before they realize that she is dig-toxic, but she does fine.

Reference 16 is:
Treatment of Hyperkalemia in a Patient with Unrecognized Digitalis Toxicity
2003, Vol. 41, No. 4 , Pages 373-376
Shawn K. Van Deusen, M.D.,, Robert H. Birkhahn, M.D., and Theodore J. Gaeta, D.O., M.P.H.
New York Methodist Hospital, Department of Emergency Medicine, Brooklyn, New YorkUSA

Which contains an identical story about aggressively treating hyperkalemia with both IV calcium and pacing before realizing the patient was actually dig-toxic and treating them appropriately. No bad outcome occurred.


Anyway, while stone heart sounded awesome, I still haven't seen any evidence it actually exists, and a lot of evidence that it, at least, isn't EASY to trigger with an amp or two of calcium. Once again, this is something I believe, but I don't go around giving my dig-toxic patients IV calcium for fun :)
 
Crappy bout the job mate. Let me know if you are looking in N.E., we need to get you back to experimenting with protocols you read-on-a-forum/heard-on-a-podcast/glanced-at-on-a-blog!
 
Crappy bout the job mate. Let me know if you are looking in N.E., we need to get you back to experimenting with protocols you read-on-a-forum/heard-on-a-podcast/glanced-at-on-a-blog!

In all facets - treatment, job, life - the right thing always happens at the right time. No matter what you do, some people are going to die. And, no matter what you do, some people are going to live!
 
If you're sure it's flash pulmonary edema, then go ahead and give a light dose of lasix. Don't let it distract you from cranking the hell out of the nitro gtt though. The problem with a huge dose of lasix is some of the people that come in looking like flash pulmonary edema have multi-focal pneumonia and uncontrolled BP and drying them out probably increases their mortality by a noticeable percentage. At my old shop I'd see acute onset hypoxia with extremely elevated BP needing BiPap or intubation 1-3x/shift. About 10-20% ended up having pneumonia, despite the history being "they were fine last night and woke up not being able to breathe". Now the hypotensive CHF exacerbation is where things got tricky, especially if they had valvular dysfunction.
 
Why would I need am artline to dx cardiogenic shock? As for the sinus tach, i'd be more surprised if didn't have a rate above 100.

for vigileo monitoring, quick, bedside. useful for vasoactive drugs
 
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