Masters lead to Doctorate Questions

[Member 342]

Hello! I know some variations of these questions may have been asked elsewhere, but after looking through some older posts, I couldn't find any that were answered in a very definite way, and I was worried I might get overlooked if I resurrected a thread from years ago.

I am currently looking at Masters programs in the hopes of continuing on to a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Here are my questions:

1) I understand the differences between a terminal and non-terminal Masters, but I have gotten mixed messages about whether having a terminal Masters matters or not when applying to doctorate programs. It seems like it was frowned upon by admissions to doctoral programs in the past (http://psych.hanover.edu/handbook/masters2.html) - is this still the case? Because some programs are listed as strictly terminal, while others are non-terminal, and I don't understand why if it makes no difference in the end. The number of non-terminal programs is very limited, and it would really open up my geographical options if the terminal degrees made no difference.

2) I have been flipping through my 2012 APA Graduate Study in Psychology book looking for non-terminal Masters programs. There are not many. Then, I go online and see other non-terminal Masters programs available that are not listed in the book - does this mean they are not APA-accredited? Should I steer clear of them?

3) If you get your Masters in a sub-field of psychology other than what you want your doctorate in, does this hurt you when applying to doctorate programs? E.g. If I got an MA in Developmental or Consulting Psych and then applied for a PhD in Clinical.

4) How do doctorate programs look upon candidates applying with Masters from foreign countries? There are some schools in Canada listed in the APA book, but I read in another book that the interchangeable U.S./Canada degrees in psychology setup was being phased out.

THANK YOU!!

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[mewtoo]

Hello! I know some variations of these questions may have been asked elsewhere, but after looking through some older posts, I couldn't find any that were answered in a very definite way, and I was worried I might get overlooked if I resurrected a thread from years ago.

I am currently looking at Masters programs in the hopes of continuing on to a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Here are my questions:

1) I understand the differences between a terminal and non-terminal Masters, but I have gotten mixed messages about whether having a terminal Masters matters or not when applying to doctorate programs. It seems like it was frowned upon by admissions to doctoral programs in the past (http://psych.hanover.edu/handbook/masters2.html) - is this still the case? Because some programs are listed as strictly terminal, while others are non-terminal, and I don't understand why if it makes no difference in the end. The number of non-terminal programs is very limited, and it would really open up my geographical options if the terminal degrees made no difference.

2) I have been flipping through my 2012 APA Graduate Study in Psychology book looking for non-terminal Masters programs. There are not many. Then, I go online and see other non-terminal Masters programs available that are not listed in the book - does this mean they are not APA-accredited? Should I steer clear of them?

3) If you get your Masters in a sub-field of psychology other than what you want your doctorate in, does this hurt you when applying to doctorate programs? E.g. If I got an MA in Developmental or Consulting Psych and then applied for a PhD in Clinical.

4) How do doctorate programs look upon candidates applying with Masters from foreign countries? There are some schools in Canada listed in the APA book, but I read in another book that the interchangeable U.S./Canada degrees in psychology setup was being phased out.

THANK YOU!!

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I think you don't know what terminal vs non-terminal is judging by the bolded questions. Terminal masters programs just mean you get your masters and your done with that program. A non-terminal masters means that you get it while your on your way to your PhD in the same program. For example, when you apply to PhD programs, you are first a master's student earning your non-terminal masters. After you finish your thesis, masters classes, and comps (or other requirements) you are then a doctoral student. For a terminal masters you will be applying to a program that one could assume has no doctoral program, at least in the same area. You are not on your way to being a doctoral student in that program. Some schools do have a terminal masters and a doctoral program, but being in the terminal masters program does NOT mean you will go on to the doctoral program. You have to separately apply to the doctoral programs in those cases. You must apply to doctoral programs to get a non-terminal masters. You must apply to strictly masters programs to get a terminal masters.

1) See above.
2) I do not think that being in the APA book means they are actually APA certified, though I could be wrong. I think they just list all the psych programs that respond to their survey and agree to be in the book. For accred. status, you should fact-check with the school's website and the APA website.
3) Not sure if it hurts, though I am not well informed in this area as I am only an applicant myself. I just know that SDN posters have said in the past that experimental masters programs are the way to go if you ultimate goal is a PhD in clinical.
4) No clue.

Hope that helps.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

You must apply to doctoral programs to get a non-terminal masters. You must apply to strictly masters programs to get a terminal masters.

Not true. Plenty of independent masters programs exist that are not terminal. Terminal in our field means that it leads to licensure, so a terminal masters would lead to masters-level licensure as a counselor, etc. Non-terminal, in general, means that there is a doctorate beyond the masters that leads to the highest level of training one can achieve in that discipline/track.

Also, APA accreditation does not exist for masters programs.

 

[Savhasana]

Terminal in our field means that it leads to licensure, so a terminal masters would lead to masters-level licensure as a counselor, etc.

No, it just means that it ends (terminates) when you get the Master's, rather than automatically continuing. There are lots of terminal MA programs that do not lead to licensure, such as general Psychology MA's.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

No, it just means that it ends (terminates) when you get the Master's, rather than automatically continuing. There are lots of terminal MA programs that do not lead to licensure, such as general Psychology MA's.

No, that's not a terminal MA.

 

[MBellows]

Not true. Plenty of independent masters programs exist that are not terminal. Terminal in our field means that it leads to licensure, so a terminal masters would lead to masters-level licensure as a counselor, etc. Non-terminal, in general, means that there is a doctorate beyond the masters that leads to the highest level of training one can achieve in that discipline/track.

Also, APA accreditation does not exist for masters programs.

Truth. There are PhD's in Counselor Education and Social Work, but the MSW and the MA/MS is still the "Terminal Degree" for LPCs and LMSW/LCSWs. The PhD is strictly academic for those fields.

No, it just means that it ends (terminates) when you get the Master's, rather than automatically continuing.

Please inform me if you know of any programs that plan for you to get a master's on the way to a PhD. I've seen plenty that offer the option of getting a Master's in a sequence for PhD. as long as you complete some extra coursework, but I've always seen it advertised as extra steps you have to take.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Not true. Plenty of independent masters programs exist that are not terminal. Terminal in our field means that it leads to licensure, so a terminal masters would lead to masters-level licensure as a counselor, etc. Non-terminal, in general, means that there is a doctorate beyond the masters that leads to the highest level of training one can achieve in that discipline/track.

That's how I've always understood "terminal masters" in psychology and related fields, too.

 

[mewtoo]

Truth. There are PhD's in Counselor Education and Social Work, but the MSW and the MA/MS is still the "Terminal Degree" for LPCs and LMSW/LCSWs. The PhD is strictly academic for those fields.



Please inform me if you know of any programs that plan for you to get a master's on the way to a PhD. I've seen plenty that offer the option of getting a Master's in a sequence for PhD. as long as you complete some extra coursework, but I've always seen it advertised as extra steps you have to take.

Pretty much all of the more research heavy clinical PhD programs I've looked at you get the masters along the way and its an expected part of the process. I actually don't think I've seen programs that do what you describe? Most I've seen have either in the FAQ or other part addressing the question whether they offer a terminal masters and they usually reply along the line of "No, but those admitted to the doctoral program get their master's degree along the way."

 

[MBellows]

Pretty much all of the more research heavy clinical PhD programs I've looked at you get the masters along the way and its an expected part of the process. I actually don't think I've seen programs that do what you describe? Most I've seen have either in the FAQ or other part addressing the question whether they offer a terminal masters and they usually reply along the line of "No, but those admitted to the doctoral program get their master's degree along the way."

None offered here. http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/educa...al-psychology/frequently-asked-questions.html

Strongly encouraged but still somewhat "optional" http://psychology.unt.edu/system/files/users/jlc0442/CHP Program Manual 2012-2013.pdf

Those are just two of the ones that I've ran across, I'm probably suffering from recency bias though. I definitely believe that you're right about the research heavy part. Most of the folk that I know that have a doctorate in psych and no master's came from Argosy.

 

[mewtoo]

None offered here. http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/educa...al-psychology/frequently-asked-questions.html

Strongly encouraged but still somewhat "optional" http://psychology.unt.edu/system/files/users/jlc0442/CHP Program Manual 2012-2013.pdf

Those are just two of the ones that I've ran across, I'm probably suffering from recency bias though. I definitely believe that you're right about the research heavy part. Most of the folk that I know that have a doctorate in psych and no master's came from Argosy.

Yeah, I was thinking those two would probably be more like you were talking about, but I haven't really worried about the masters very much. I'd find examples of ones where its expected, but I don't really feel like combing through like 12+ school websites. I'm sure you know just how fun trying to find info on school websites is, haha.

 

[Member 342]

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I think you don't know what terminal vs non-terminal is judging by the bolded questions. Terminal masters programs just mean you get your masters and your done with that program. A non-terminal masters means that you get it while your on your way to your PhD in the same program. For example, when you apply to PhD programs, you are first a master's student earning your non-terminal masters. After you finish your thesis, masters classes, and comps (or other requirements) you are then a doctoral student. For a terminal masters you will be applying to a program that one could assume has no doctoral program, at least in the same area. You are not on your way to being a doctoral student in that program. Some schools do have a terminal masters and a doctoral program, but being in the terminal masters program does NOT mean you will go on to the doctoral program. You have to separately apply to the doctoral programs in those cases. You must apply to doctoral programs to get a non-terminal masters. You must apply to strictly masters programs to get a terminal masters.

I understand all of that, but there are places that offer non-terminal MAs independently of the doctorate program. The non-terminal MA programs I've been looking at give you an MA, but once you're done with that, you must re-apply if you want to get into their PhD program, and I'm assuming any other program. So, I'm trying to figure out if that is favored by admissions for PhD programs over a terminal MA.

I'm going to the source and e-mailing the contacts given on some non-terminal MA program websites, I'll let you guys know what they say.

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

 

[mewtoo]

I understand all of that, but there are places that offer non-terminal MAs independently of the doctorate program. The non-terminal MA programs I've been looking at give you an MA, but once you're done with that, you must re-apply if you want to get into their PhD program, and I'm assuming any other program. So, I'm trying to figure out if that is favored by admissions for PhD programs over a terminal MA.

I'm going to the source and e-mailing the contacts given on some non-terminal MA program websites, I'll let you guys know what they say.

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

So you are looking at MAs that make you eligible for a license at the end vs those who don't? If you read threads on the board many people will say that degrees that lead to being able to practice are often looked at a less positive light by research-heavy and some equal weight programs because they are afraid you will be "too clinical." Many suggest an experimental psych masters. For programs that offer both the MA and the PhD (that you have to separately apply to) it may be more of a toss up and emailing, like you are doing, is probably the best way to figure it out. If you get the MA there and are trying for the PhD at the same place that would be its own can of worm in and of itself, though. There is a thread probably still on the first page where someone who got their masters at the program they are applying to get their PhD is already having trouble with the politics of this situation and hasn't even applied yet. If your main goal is research, though, I think the experimental psych masters is the way to go and is what I'll get if I don't get into any PhD programs.