Match Day 2014

[Optimus-Prime]

We are educating you. You aren't listening. It's not being an internet tough guy to tell you that you're wrong. You don't even have the background to understand why you're wrong. It's like trying to explain to a victorian how the internet works. They don't even have a concept of what a computer is or even what electricity is. Here's an example. You look at USNews and see that Cleveland Clinic is #1 for cardiology. So you might think oh maybe I should go to cleveland clinic for medical school so I can match IM there and eventually become a cardiologist. What you don't know is that Case is way better for residents than Cleveland Clinic. Why? Because at the Cleveland Clinic, the attendings and fellows will make all the decisions, while as a resident, you're a glorified scut monkey. These residents might have astronomical step 1 scores. Maybe it's because they take IMGs who spent 6 months studying for Step 1 instead of 6 weeks. And they know better than anyone else that their residents aren't as well trained as people from other programs. Do you want us to go through every single program on every single match list? Most of what you know comes from what you hear from attendings, PDs, residents. The USNews rankings are garbage because they pick out metrics and weight them. Who knows if the metrics are valid? How do you rank a hospital? Outcomes? What if a hospital has a higher mortality rate because all of the other hospitals ship out their most difficult cases to them?

Good medical schools are generally affiliated with good residencies but how does that matter to you? You have no idea what field you are going to pick in 4 years. You have no idea if your school will give you a home court advantage. You have no idea if any of the doctors in your program are heavy hitters that can write you good letters of recommendation. In fact, you don't even know how important LORs are to residency applications. Just because a program sends 50 people to Temple one year doesn't mean that when you apply, you will get a residency at Temple. By the time you apply, the residency program director might be different. There might be a new chairman who's shaking things up. You don't even know to think of these things so how can you judge a match list?

Thats what they say about every high tier program, I feel like you can't make that call without having done a rotation there. That being said I'm sure that the trade off between prestige/pressure for research and freedom to pursue the clinical experience that will make you great physician exists, cough cough Hopkins, MGH

Is it not reasonable to speculate that a school that places students in the high ranked programs tends to prepare their students well for step 1, and give them the opportunities they need to produce the research and ECs needed to match??

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[dcc23]

We are educating you. You aren't listening. It's not being an internet tough guy to tell you that you're wrong. You don't even have the background to understand why you're wrong. It's like trying to explain to a victorian how the internet works. They don't even have a concept of what a computer is or even what electricity is. Here's an example. You look at USNews and see that Cleveland Clinic is #1 for cardiology. So you might think oh maybe I should go to cleveland clinic for medical school so I can match IM there and eventually become a cardiologist. What you don't know is that Case is way better for residents than Cleveland Clinic. Why? Because at the Cleveland Clinic, the attendings and fellows will make all the decisions, while as a resident, you're a glorified scut monkey. These residents might have astronomical step 1 scores. Maybe it's because they take IMGs who spent 6 months studying for Step 1 instead of 6 weeks. And they know better than anyone else that their residents aren't as well trained as people from other programs. Do you want us to go through every single program on every single match list? Most of what you know comes from what you hear from attendings, PDs, residents. The USNews rankings are garbage because they pick out metrics and weight them. Who knows if the metrics are valid? How do you rank a hospital? Outcomes? What if a hospital has a higher mortality rate because all of the other hospitals ship out their most difficult cases to them?

Good medical schools are generally affiliated with good residencies but how does that matter to you? You have no idea what field you are going to pick in 4 years. You have no idea if your school will give you a home court advantage. You have no idea if any of the doctors in your program are heavy hitters that can write you good letters of recommendation. In fact, you don't even know how important LORs are to residency applications. Just because a program sends 50 people to Temple one year doesn't mean that when you apply, you will get a residency at Temple. By the time you apply, the residency program director might be different. There might be a new chairman who's shaking things up. You don't even know to think of these things so how can you judge a match list?

That was very helpful, thank you. My problem was that you continue to say "you're wrong" but all I've done is ask questions, so I'm not sure what I've been wrong about.

 

[Psai]

I'm not saying all schools are equal. There are definitely differences and the ones that are higher ranked are usually better. But that doesn't mean that #15 is way better than #20. It's not that match lists aren't important. It's that they don't matter to premeds because you don't know how to evaluate them. What your attendings think matters. They have an idea about which schools are good and which residencies will train you well. It's just like research. You say oh this school has $10 million more in NIH funding than this other school. Who cares? If your lab is funded and can pay for you to work for 10 weeks, that's pretty much good enough for most people. Plenty of people don't even do research. I guess schools with more funding allow you to have more choice in what you can pursue but in reality, you have plenty of choice by working at a lab in a different school (this is what I did) or doing one of those summer programs. If you get into Harvard, go to Harvard. But don't think that just because Harvard had 10 people going into orthopedics that you're a shoo-in for being an orthopedic surgeon. Name brand always help. But it's also about the individual. If you go to Harvard and putter around during your dedicated study time, do you think you will do well on Step 1 just from your school's brand name?

 

[CliveStaples]

This is a fantastic post. Thank you for doing this.

Where I get confused, then, is what the purpose is in attending a more quality institution at all? For example, as an applicant I have been deciding between four schools. When speaking with medical students and physicians, they have consistently advised I attend two of the four, and at times have said fairly negative things about the other two. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but the two schools being recommended have what appear to be stronger match lists, and definitely have more research/NIH funding. Thus there appears to be a correlation here between popular opinion (Albeit the sample size is small), funding/opportunities, and student outcomes.

I recognize that match lists are not important. I respect everything that you said here. But to say that all schools are equal and that going to X school won't at least help in setting one up with X location or X residency seems to go against all the evidence I have seen. More importantly, it goes against all the opinions and advice I have been given by those many, many times more knowledgable than I. That is where I am confused. Thanks again for posting.

If I might interject here, I think that perhaps the disconnect occurs at one key place:

What are student outcomes? Well, I would say that a "positive" student outcome would be a student matching at their first choice or at least high up on their match list at the specialty that they are interested in matching into. Now, how can we determine that? I think that the wise opinion on this thread is that there is really no way to determine that based upon these match lists. The distribution of people into competitive specialties is more of a product of personal preference of specialty; likewise, the distribution of people into specific programs is based upon the specific applicant's interests (location being the most common important factor).

You want help in deciding a medical school: well I have to say that the most important factor to you should be deciding at which location will you be happiest at. For some, that depends on location. For others, cost is the most important factor. For those who know they want a career in academic medicine, then maybe the school should have a plethora of research opportunities and access to them for medical students. Wherever makes you happiest is where you should be going. Your mental health and work ethic will make more of a difference to your ability to score well on board exams and receive good recommendations (the most important factors, along with the interview itself, according to residency directors). As long as you attend an accredited MD institution, there are zero doors that close for you as far as residencies are concerned. Go where you think you will shine.

 

[Modafinil]

My sentiments exactly. So many people on SDN seem to love expressing the fact that they know more than others, but aren't helpful to the people who are just genuinely trying to learn. That's what most pre-meds are here for anyway. And if our ignorance is so frustrating, why not either help educate or just ignore us altogether? I've never understood the joy in being an internet tough guy.

We did help educate you. You are choosing to ignore what we said. Without knowing what drove everyone to make their decisions, where certain programs were on their rank lists, or even what programs are good for certain specialties - looking at rank lists means absolutely nothing. You are trying to extract meaning from something that simply does not possess it.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

I'm not saying all schools are equal. There are definitely differences and the ones that are higher ranked are usually better. But that doesn't mean that #15 is way better than #20. It's not that match lists aren't important. It's that they don't matter to premeds because you don't know how to evaluate them. What your attendings think matters. They have an idea about which schools are good and which residencies will train you well. It's just like research. You say oh this school has $10 million more in NIH funding than this other school. Who cares? If your lab is funded and can pay for you to work for 10 weeks, that's pretty much good enough for most people. Plenty of people don't even do research. I guess schools with more funding allow you to have more choice in what you can pursue but in reality, you have plenty of choice by working at a lab in a different school (this is what I did) or doing one of those summer programs. If you get into Harvard, go to Harvard. But don't think that just because Harvard had 10 people going into orthopedics that you're a shoo-in for being an orthopedic surgeon. Name brand always help. But it's also about the individual. If you go to Harvard and putter around during your dedicated study time, do you think you will do well on Step 1 just from your school's brand name?

its all here say you say. A good school looks better to help you match, but won't guarantee you a match; thats obvious.

I don't see the problem in placing value on a school who can place residents into spots that are highly competitive. For all intents and purposes I don't think the prestige of a name offsets years of scutwork, and in some cases crap training because of competition by attendings and fellows; Like you said.

Its nice to see a school that can place people into competitive places, because it alludes to the fact that the school has the resources to get you there given you put the work in. Matching is not automatic, but I feel placing yourself somewhere with higher probabilities is of utmost importance.

All of this barring an interest in academic medicine, then prestige is the way to go.

 

[Psai]

You just said a lot without saying anything of substance, plus you're wrong which tends to happen when you don't know what you're talking about. I go out of my way to educate you and not only do you ignore it, you post the same, tired, immature and incorrect thinking. Also, it's "hearsay".

 

[TChapmanwvu1]

We are educating you. You aren't listening. It's not being an internet tough guy to tell you that you're wrong. You don't even have the background to understand why you're wrong. It's like trying to explain to a victorian how the internet works. They don't even have a concept of what a computer is or even what electricity is. Here's an example. You look at USNews and see that Cleveland Clinic is #1 for cardiology. So you might think oh maybe I should go to cleveland clinic for medical school so I can match IM there and eventually become a cardiologist. What you don't know is that Case is way better for residents than Cleveland Clinic. Why? Because at the Cleveland Clinic, the attendings and fellows will make all the decisions, while as a resident, you're a glorified scut monkey. These residents might have astronomical step 1 scores. Maybe it's because they take IMGs who spent 6 months studying for Step 1 instead of 6 weeks. And they know better than anyone else that their residents aren't as well trained as people from other programs. Do you want us to go through every single program on every single match list? Most of what you know comes from what you hear from attendings, PDs, residents. The USNews rankings are garbage because they pick out metrics and weight them. Who knows if the metrics are valid? How do you rank a hospital? Outcomes? What if a hospital has a higher mortality rate because all of the other hospitals ship out their most difficult cases to them?

Good medical schools are generally affiliated with good residencies but how does that matter to you? You have no idea what field you are going to pick in 4 years. You have no idea if your school will give you a home court advantage. You have no idea if any of the doctors in your program are heavy hitters that can write you good letters of recommendation. In fact, you don't even know how important LORs are to residency applications. Just because a program sends 50 people to Temple one year doesn't mean that when you apply, you will get a residency at Temple. By the time you apply, the residency program director might be different. There might be a new chairman who's shaking things up. You don't even know to think of these things so how can you judge a match list?

Cool post. What I took from this is do your best wherever you are/get in. Plain and simple. Puts things into perspective. If people spent as much time studying as they do worrying about numbers and hear say they would probably be better off.

 

[Espadaleader]

We are educating you. You aren't listening. It's not being an internet tough guy to tell you that you're wrong. You don't even have the background to understand why you're wrong. It's like trying to explain to a victorian how the internet works. They don't even have a concept of what a computer is or even what electricity is. Here's an example. You look at USNews and see that Cleveland Clinic is #1 for cardiology. So you might think oh maybe I should go to cleveland clinic for medical school so I can match IM there and eventually become a cardiologist. What you don't know is that Case is way better for residents than Cleveland Clinic. Why? Because at the Cleveland Clinic, the attendings and fellows will make all the decisions, while as a resident, you're a glorified scut monkey. These residents might have astronomical step 1 scores. Maybe it's because they take IMGs who spent 6 months studying for Step 1 instead of 6 weeks. And they know better than anyone else that their residents aren't as well trained as people from other programs. Do you want us to go through every single program on every single match list? Most of what you know comes from what you hear from attendings, PDs, residents. The USNews rankings are garbage because they pick out metrics and weight them. Who knows if the metrics are valid? How do you rank a hospital? Outcomes? What if a hospital has a higher mortality rate because all of the other hospitals ship out their most difficult cases to them?

Good medical schools are generally affiliated with good residencies but how does that matter to you? You have no idea what field you are going to pick in 4 years. You have no idea if your school will give you a home court advantage. You have no idea if any of the doctors in your program are heavy hitters that can write you good letters of recommendation. In fact, you don't even know how important LORs are to residency applications. Just because a program sends 50 people to Temple one year doesn't mean that when you apply, you will get a residency at Temple. By the time you apply, the residency program director might be different. There might be a new chairman who's shaking things up. You don't even know to think of these things so how can you judge a match list?

As entering students will have to evaluate match lists. Why? Because schools are forcing them down are necks for one. Of course, we do not have the ability yet to make an informed decision on the school. Hell, I don't even know what residency I want yet. But, even at this stage I do think an entering student can extract value from a match list. I think the percentage of students that match at the home institution is something that matters, especially for academic programs. Are X students valued at X programs. This is something that schools showboat often to incoming students (Yale in particular). For example, Yale loves the fact that about 40-50% of their students match at Harvard or Yale affiliates every year. This is featured in their 100 reasons guide and is evident in their most recent match list. This is attractive because IF I am interested in residency at Harvard or Yale, both are very familiar with Yale students in a vague general sense.

That's it. That's all I can say. I don't know what I want to be or where I want to be. I can't go further but I don't think I have too yet. I might marry my GF and want to move to the west coast. I might hate academic medicine. The PD for neurology might move to Penn and I might migrate there, I might hate Boston and New Haven. The list goes on.

Bottom line. I cannot say "X school is better because of X schools match list". That's ludicrous. I can say in a vague sense that a schools match lists adds incremental value to the school.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

A US News list is not very different from the annual Maxim Hot 100.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

You just said a lot without saying anything of substance, plus you're wrong which tends to happen when you don't know what you're talking about. I go out of my way to educate you and not only do you ignore it, you post the same, tired, immature and incorrect thinking. Also, it's "hearsay".

I had a feeling that was spelled wrong.

???? You think evaluating a program based on prestige while taking into account its technical aspects lacks substance. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not saying the lower ranking residencies are bad, in fact from a technical standpoint there tends to be a chance you get your hands dirty earlier, or you receive a higher quality of training ie Union Memorial (keep it secret).

The only perspective you can really offer is your own clerkships, away rotations you yourself have experienced, or experiences by others that you know. Unless medical school imparts some magical awareness of all residency programs and characteristics as soon as you matriculate (not ruling it out). Yes I do realize there is a certain "it" factor where people do a rotation at a who knows place and it turns out to be incredibly awesome, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder; the "it" could be at a number of places including staying at your medical school, and thus the pressure to do away rotations and get a feel for where you want to be regardless of name.

I'm still going to ooo and awe at every HSS and Mayo ortho match I see.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I'd like to echo what @Espadaleader is saying here.

While many would like to assert that the match is too individualistic, or too 'stochastic' for subjective preferences such as 'fit for a program' or 'location bias', to be able to gauge the strength of the medical school for the students' match in a given year, the fact remains that, if 'middle tier school X' in the midwestern U.S. consistently places 2 seniors to MGH for I.M., it is a reasonable assumption that MGH has a positive opinion of that medical school, and have no real aversion to incoming residents from that medical school.

I think that it stands to reason that a school like Yale would place 50% of their graduates into harvard and yale affiliates, and most certainly noone is going to turn their nose up and sneer at a top 20 of top 25 graduate, but for the rest of the medical schools in the US, the match list can be used (as long as wild speculations aren't made) to guage that strength/national reputation of that school amongst program directors.

 

[soraya sayu]

I would like to see BU's if anyone gets a copy, I can't find it online ATM.

BU's match list by specialty
http://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm-osa/fil...ospitals-and-specialties-only-for-posting.pdf

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/791/P30/

Maybe I'm being idealistic, but at some point I hope we experience a significant reduction in "fancy-name fascination"


Here's an excellent quote from Uncle Harvey (you can find it in the above link)
So here’s my question to the residents out there.

How many of you have worked directly with junior faculty that trained at one of the “Top 5?” After operating with 3 attendings straight out of 3 of those programs, I can safely say that in my experience the differences are VAST. And knowing what I know now about those 3 programs, I am fairly shocked and horrified that one of them supposedly has the “best operative experience in the country.” This ongoing experience has confirmed for me that these tiers and “top 10” lists are complete crap.

I’m at a program with a lot of junior faculty hired in the last 5 years (7, to be exact) and I think you can learn quite a bit about the parity of programs (or lack thereof) by looking at how independent, confident, and competent they are over their first few years or practice.

 

[Psai]

I had a feeling that was spelled wrong.

???? You think evaluating a program based on prestige while taking into account its technical aspects lacks substance. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not saying the lower ranking residencies are bad, in fact from a technical standpoint there tends to be a chance you get your hands dirty earlier, or you receive a higher quality of training ie Union Memorial (keep it secret).

The only perspective you can really offer is your own clerkships, away rotations you yourself have experienced, or experiences by others that you know. Unless medical school imparts some magical awareness of all residency programs and characteristics as soon as you matriculate (not ruling it out). Yes I do realize there is a certain "it" factor where people do a rotation at a who knows place and it turns out to be incredibly awesome, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder; the "it" could be at a number of places including staying at your medical school, and thus the pressure to do away rotations and get a feel for where you want to be regardless of name.

I'm still going to ooo and awe at every HSS and Mayo ortho match I see.

Because your premed status allows you to offer perspective? I don't get your argument here. I hear what attendings, fellows and residents have to say. I go to interest group meetings. I've talked to fourth years after they've been on interviews where they talk to residents and fourth years from around the country. Information spreads. I don't get why premeds think that we think that starting medical school imparts knowledge. Being a medical student doesn't give you some magical insight. But it gives you way more than being a premed does.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

This is a fantastic post. Thank you for doing this.

Where I get confused, then, is what the purpose is in attending a more quality institution at all? For example, as an applicant I have been deciding between four schools. When speaking with medical students and physicians, they have consistently advised I attend two of the four, and at times have said fairly negative things about the other two. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but the two schools being recommended have what appear to be stronger match lists, and definitely have more research/NIH funding. Thus there appears to be a correlation here between popular opinion (Albeit the sample size is small), funding/opportunities, and student outcomes.

I recognize that match lists are not important. I respect everything that you said here. But to say that all schools are equal and that going to X school won't at least help in setting one up with X location or X residency seems to go against all the evidence I have seen. More importantly, it goes against all the opinions and advice I have been given by those many, many times more knowledgable than I. That is where I am confused. Thanks again for posting.

Pick whichever institution will leave you with the least amount of debt when you graduate.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Because your premed status allows you to offer perspective? I don't get your argument here. I hear what attendings, fellows and residents have to say. I go to interest group meetings. I've talked to fourth years after they've been on interviews where they talk to residents and fourth years from around the country. Information spreads. I don't get why premeds think that we think that starting medical school imparts knowledge. Being a medical student doesn't give you some magical insight. But it gives you way more than being a premed does.

My status has little to do with my perspective (Hence why magical impartation would be nice),

But you o medical student with your vast knowledge, my argument was based on the fact that you don't know everything. I saw a post earlier on about the variables contingent upon family, location, and a host of other things. Each individual match is based on too many things to generalize and infer from.

In my stupidity I tend to avoid generalizing the match as whole and look at Derm matches, General Surgery spots with prestige, and amount/name of ortho spots. Its a decent way to gauge things based on where the highest step 1 scores would go. Certainly there are circumstances where people match to spots that wouldn't reflect their step 1, and/or other variables come into play.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Only saw your top line from your reply, Yes being in medical school gives you substantially more insight than me into things. A wider breadth of experiences from the people you interact with, and an IDEA of the ideal match spots across the tiers.

 

[Psai]

Only saw your top line from your reply, Yes being in medical school gives you substantially more insight than me into things. A wider breadth of experiences from the people you interact with, and an IDEA of the ideal match spots across the tiers.

My posts in this thread are to tell you that looking at match lists don't help you and it should be a non-factor in the decision of which medical school to attend. I'm not saying I know everything and I didn't say that I do. My point is and has been that you don't know anything so chill with the inferiority complex. By the way, high step scores don't guarantee anything and there are plenty of people who don't match what they want despite great scores. There are also plenty of people who match with below average scores. There's a guy from my school who matched ortho with a below average step score because he was a great guy and the residents loved him during his away. You don't even know which general surgery programs are prestigious. Also, integrated plastics is the most difficult to match. But keep looking at match lists if it makes you feel better.

 

[Gifted Hands]

This whole thread is ridiculous. Thanks for the laugh, premeds!

 

[bakedbeans18]

This whole thread is ridiculous. Thanks for the laugh, premeds!

be nice though...you know we were once in their position.

 

[Gifted Hands]

be nice though...you know we were once in their position.

I'd like to hope I was never this presumptuous and snooty but this is SDN after all. There was some serious truth told in this thread and I hope people finally believe it. You can't "interpret" a match list! It's literally impossible unless you know almost every person on that list, what they wanted, what they got, and what's good for that specialty. Otherwise it might as well be in jibberish.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I'd like to hope I was never this presumptuous and snooty but this is SDN after all. There was some serious truth told in this thread and I hope people finally believe it. You can't "interpret" a match list! It's literally impossible unless you know almost every person on that list, what they wanted, what they got, and what's good for that specialty. Otherwise it might as well be in jibberish.

Well, as I mentioned previously, I think the match list can be interpreted, but not necessarily to blanket a particular school as 'good' or 'bad'. For example. Miami is by no means considered a top medical school (and also consider location, South Florida) but year to year, they consistently match to MassGen and UTSouthwestern and Duke for Internal Medicine. I think this says something about how the program at Miami is regarded amongst IM PD's. I think a stronger argument can be made that a school is good for 'X' specialty, than can be made to say that the school is weak (which some people are inclined to do if they don't see a sleuth of top academic programs, even if it was by choice to Rank Cook-County or UCLA-Harbor or Brooklyn Hospital Center as #1.)

Strengths can be interpreted, but weaknesses cannot. That's what I am driving at.

 

[Gifted Hands]

Well, as I mentioned previously, I think the match list can be interpreted, but not necessarily to blanket a particular school as 'good' or 'bad'. For example. Miami is by no means considered a top medical school (and also consider location, South Florida) but year to year, they consistently match to MassGen and UTSouthwestern and Duke for Internal Medicine. I think this says something about how the program at Miami is regarded amongst IM PD's. I think a stronger argument can be made that a school is good for 'X' specialty, than can be made to say that the school is weak (which some people are inclined to do if they don't see a sleuth of top academic programs, even if it was by choice to Rank Cook-County or UCLA-Harbor or Brooklyn Hospital Center as #1.)

Strengths can be interpreted, but weaknesses cannot. That's what I am driving at.

Possibly. But how many people wanted to go to MGH or Duke or whatever. You have no way of knowing. On a givens schools match list, (excluding home program) you may consistently see 2-3 go to MGH every year. Yes, there's clearly a good relationship there. But what if 12 students ranked MGH #1 that year from this program? Sure they got 2 but you can't tell who got what they wanted.

On the flip side you may see someone match in middle of nowhere Kansas for Derm and be like wow that sucks, must not have had strong connections or a pull from their institution... Unless that was their top choice and their wife has a favorite aunt there. There's no way of understanding it. Then add to that that the med school names aren't always the best programs for what you want. I just matched into a peds. I go to a top 10 program that has a good program but not top notch. But it's a great hospital and very reputable so you might think "oh wow that's a great match" except (unless you wanted to stay) someone in peds knows better. As premeds, he'll even med students without the info you get from advisors, PDs, residents, won't know that. I didn't know it till I went through this crazy process.

 

[bakedbeans18]

Possibly. But how many people wanted to go to MGH or Duke or whatever. You have no way of knowing. On a givens schools match list, (excluding home program) you may consistently see 2-3 go to MGH every year. Yes, there's clearly a good relationship there. But what if 12 students ranked MGH #1 that year from this program? Sure they got 2 but you can't tell who got what they wanted.

On the flip side you may see someone match in middle of nowhere Kansas for Derm and be like wow that sucks, must not have had strong connections or a pull from their institution... Unless that was their top choice and their wife has a favorite aunt there. There's no way of understanding it. Then add to that that the med school names aren't always the best programs for what you want. I just matched into a peds. I go to a top 10 program that has a good program but not top notch. But it's a great hospital and very reputable so you might think "oh wow that's a great match" except (unless you wanted to stay) someone in peds knows better. As premeds, he'll even med students without the info you get from advisors, PDs, residents, won't know that. I didn't know it till I went through this crazy process.

I understand that. I don't think you are quite getting what I am saying.
I'm talking about a medical schools reputation within a given specialty. If the match list for whatever category is CHOCK FULL of matches to strong hospitals (whether or not that was the applicants first choice) it still says something about the backing those students have behind them with an education from that medical school. I am saying that the opposite 'oh they matched to not so reputable places means it's not a terribly great medical school' is not something you can really gauge from the match list, but when you see

Internal Medicine:
Massachusetts General Hospital
Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania
Duke University Medical Center
Emory SOM
B I Deaconess Medical Center
NYP-Weill Cornell Medical College
Vanderbilt University Medical Center
University of Texas Southwestern

on the match list, among other programs which perhaps might not be so shiny, irrespective of where people wanted to match as their first choice, it cannot be argued against that the medical school is regarded well among IM PD's. You cannot say 'School X is weak' if you see only community hospitals, because that's possibly just where people wanted to go, but when you see big names like this - I take it as a message that the school is well reputed for that field. I don't think it's an unreasonable or too speculative of an assessment.

 

[3838]

If I might interject here, I think that perhaps the disconnect occurs at one key place:

What are student outcomes? Well, I would say that a "positive" student outcome would be a student matching at their first choice or at least high up on their match list at the specialty that they are interested in matching into. Now, how can we determine that? I think that the wise opinion on this thread is that there is really no way to determine that based upon these match lists. The distribution of people into competitive specialties is more of a product of personal preference of specialty; likewise, the distribution of people into specific programs is based upon the specific applicant's interests (location being the most common important factor).

You want help in deciding a medical school: well I have to say that the most important factor to you should be deciding at which location will you be happiest at. For some, that depends on location. For others, cost is the most important factor. For those who know they want a career in academic medicine, then maybe the school should have a plethora of research opportunities and access to them for medical students. Wherever makes you happiest is where you should be going. Your mental health and work ethic will make more of a difference to your ability to score well on board exams and receive good recommendations (the most important factors, along with the interview itself, according to residency directors). As long as you attend an accredited MD institution, there are zero doors that close for you as far as residencies are concerned. Go where you think you will shine.

But how do we tell where we'll be happy? Judge on the ONE (MAYBE two?) days I spent at these schools for an interview?
My state school doesn't even have a second look...
Right now I'm leaning towards UVA because I know I'll be happy with the slightly more relaxed pre-clinical curriculum, and I absolutely couldn't stop talking about the place when I got back. But what about rotations? Will I be happy with the quality of rotations? I don't know...
Some people would even say that ultimately you can be happy anywhere...
And also, what if I decide that I want to end up in an urban residency...in NYC, say? Will going to UVA put me at a disadvantage?

 

[bakedbeans18]

But how do we tell where we'll be happy? Judge on the ONE (MAYBE two?) days I spent at these schools for an interview?
My state school doesn't even have a second look...
Right now I'm leaning towards UVA because I know I'll be happy with the slightly more relaxed pre-clinical curriculum, and I absolutely couldn't stop talking about the place when I got back. But what about rotations? Will I be happy with the quality of rotations? I don't know...
Some people would even say that ultimately you can be happy anywhere...
And also, what if I decide that I want to end up in an urban residency...in NYC, say? Will going to UVA put me at a disadvantage?

Will going to a top 25 medical school put you at a disadvantage when it comes time to applying to residency?

 

[3838]

Will going to a top 25 medical school put you at a disadvantage when it comes time to applying to residency?

Are you talking about UVA? UVA isn't top 25, I don't think... Anyways, prestige is actually pretty low on the list of the things residency directors consider. Letters of recc and step scores are more important.

 

[bakedbeans18]

Are you talking about UVA? UVA isn't top 25, I don't think... Anyways, prestige is actually pretty low on the list of the things residency directors consider. Letters of recc and step scores are more important.

If you attend UVA, you won't rule out a residency in one of the big cities.
Case and point: two summers ago I was dating a resident that completed her MD at UVA. I was living in NYC at the time.

 

[3838]

Pick whichever institution will leave you with the least amount of debt when you graduate.

Even if you didn't get the fuzzies when you visited? Even if you got the impression (and were told by multiple people) that the students were very stressed out? Even if they make you take a practice USMLE 10 days before the exam (Ask a marathon runner if he wants to run a marathon 10 days before the actual marathon. He will respond the same way I have to this. I didn't take full lengths when I studied for the MCAT because when I did the first time I studied, they just stressed me out. A lot. Way too much. I gained absolutely nothing from them.) ) I really don't think I would be terribly happy at the school that will leave me with 48 K of less of debt over four years. And TBH, I feel like my happiness is worth more than 48K. But hey, maybe it's not. It definitely wasn't in undergrad. (although in that case, it was 200K in debt vs. get paid 5K a year to go to school. big diff!)

By the way, would any current residents explain how certain amounts of debt impact your QOL post med school? Numbers like 250,000 and 300,000 are so big that honestly, I don't feel the difference between them. Either way I'm in six figures of debt...

 

[bakedbeans18]

Even if you didn't get the fuzzies when you visited? Even if you got the impression (and were told by multiple people) that the students were very stressed out? Even if they make you take a practice USMLE 10 days before the exam (Ask a marathon runner if he wants to run a marathon 10 days before the actual marathon. He will respond the same way I have to this. I didn't take full lengths when I studied for the MCAT because when I did the first time I studied, they just stressed me out. A lot. Way too much. I gained absolutely nothing from them.) ) I really don't think I would be terribly happy at the school that will leave me with 48 K of less of debt over four years. And TBH, I feel like my happiness is worth more than 48K. But hey, maybe it's not. It definitely wasn't in undergrad. (although in that case, it was 200K in debt vs. get paid 5K a year to go to school. big diff!)

By the way, would any current residents explain how certain amounts of debt impact your QOL post med school? Numbers like 250,000 and 300,000 are so big that honestly, I don't feel the difference between them. Either way I'm in six figures of debt...

No resident can tell you what $250,000 to $300,000 is like - because that is not their salary yet.
Dude, just IBR (income based repayment) all the way, and you'll be fine. It's not just a matter of the $50K difference - it's the interest that accrues on it as well. Regardless of what specialty you go into - you'll be well poised as a physician to pay the money back over the course of 25 years.

 

[boboyahoo]

It is awesome to go to top schools but I have heard plenty of times that it's not the name that will move you forward. Even in top schools, match lists are comprised of good schools but not as great as you would expect. There is a good distribution of people going all across the country to all types of institutes to do their residency. The more I explore the medical facilities in my area, the more I see how similar various institutes are to each other in terms of amenities and learning experience. The only difference I see is the mannerism of your classmates and your professors. Just for that I'd go to my state med school because of its extremely friendly community and the flexibility of attaining multiple degrees while you're at it. Besides that, I could probably come up with unique aspects but I would be doing a disservice to myself in telling that I would use all those resources b/c I really won't. You can only do so much in med school and maybe it is better to focus on what is pertinent for you rather than just a list of commodities that are superfluous in nature and are just there as a means of advertisement that is not meant to be consumed by the general crowd. For example, today you might be interested in surgery and see that the program has amazing surgery rotation options. Chances are that by the time you get to those resources, you may not be interested in surgery; hence, that amenity becomes superfluous.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

First @Psai tells me theres no magical impartation in medical school, then @Gifted Hands calls me snooty and presumptuous.

Whats next? are you gonna try to convince me being able to bench press a bunch won't get me an ortho spot!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Northwestern was nice enough to give information regarding specialty advisement on their website:
http://www.feinberg.northwestern.ed...idency/career-advising-specialties/index.html
As you can see, recommendations for aways, research, LOR's vary from specialty to specialty. And I'm sure they vary among different institutions for the same specialty (although there are some patterns, i.e. research is absolutely needed in certain fields like neurosurgery, etc)

And here are some post match reports from UCSF students:
http://meded.ucsf.edu/ume/post-match-reports

 

[Psai]

First @Psai tells me theres no magical impartation in medical school, then @Gifted Hands calls me snooty and presumptuous.

Whats next? are you gonna try to convince me being able to bench press a bunch won't get me an ortho spot!

Uh no, you're the one who came up with the magical awareness business first.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Uh no, you're the one who came up with the magical awareness business first.

Your #MagicHate is not very becoming of an aspiring young physician

 

[bakedbeans18]

Northwestern was nice enough to give information regarding specialty advisement on their website:
http://www.feinberg.northwestern.ed...idency/career-advising-specialties/index.html
As you can see, recommendations for aways, research, LOR's vary from specialty to specialty. And I'm sure they vary among different institutions for the same specialty (although there are some patterns, i.e. research is absolutely needed in certain fields like neurosurgery, etc)

And here are some post match reports from UCSF students:
http://meded.ucsf.edu/ume/post-match-reports

To be perfectly honest - the things you need to do at a top medical school to be competitive in a given specialty will differ from the things you need to do to be considered competitive if you attend a lower ranked school. It's just the truth of the matter - you want to do Ortho at Case but you go to Texas Tech? You better damn well get a 260 on USMLE. You co to CCLCM and want to stay in cleveland for Ortho at Case? Chances are you can sneak away with a 245.

And yes, the responses given by students for the site at Northwestern seem to be biased. At Miami, for example, students are encouraged to do away rotations in I.M. if they are interested in research tracks or going to a top IM program - and UMiami Med is considered an academic powerhouse. I'd take anything on the Northwestern site with a grain of salt.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

To be perfectly honest - the things you need to do at a top medical school to be competitive in a given specialty will differ from the things you need to do to be considered competitive if you attend a lower ranked school. It's just the truth of the matter - you want to do Ortho at Case but you go to Texas Tech? You better damn well get a 260 on USMLE. You co to CCLCM and want to stay in cleveland for Ortho at Case? Chances are you can sneak away with a 245.

And yes, the responses given by students for the site at Northwestern seem to be biased. At Miami, for example, students are encouraged to do away rotations in I.M. if they are interested in research tracks or going to a top IM program - and UMiami Med is considered an academic powerhouse. I'd take anything on the Northwestern site with a grain of salt.

I agree. I should have given the usual "grain of salt" disclaimer. Although, a school like Rush is not considered to be top tier by many (I hate tiers btw) but they seem to do well in sending their students to academic ortho programs and I'm sure their strong ortho department has a lot to do with this. Obviously, there isn't a precise method to this madness but some examples really don't hurt . On the other hand it was curious to see that a UCSF student felt that they were at a disadvantage in terms of applying to surgical specialties.

http://meded.ucsf.edu/sites/meded.u...ucation/postmatch2013neurological-surgery.pdf

See p.4

 

[Optimus-Prime]

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...tent/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

She be a few years old but its still valuable

 

[bakedbeans18]

I agree. I should have given the usual "grain of salt" disclaimer. Although, a school like Rush is not considered to be top tier by many (I hate tiers btw) but they seem to do well in sending their students to academic ortho programs and I'm sure their strong ortho department has a lot to do with this. Obviously, there isn't a precise method to this madness but some examples really don't hurt . On the other hand it was curious to see that a UCSF student felt that they were at a disadvantage in terms of applying to surgical specialties.

http://meded.ucsf.edu/sites/meded.u...ucation/postmatch2013neurological-surgery.pdf

See p.4

I actually was considering UCSF for IM, but less than 2/3 of their IM residents go onto sub-specialize. I don't know if this is self-selecting or if the program pushes it on people, but I have keen intentions of sub-specializing within IM, and that is a factor I am considering - what proportion of people from a program eventually sub-specialize (for as many people at MGH or UCSF that simply want to be a GP or whatever, there are likely an equal if not greater number of people that wanted to sub-specialize but didn't match to a fellowship.) UCSF, although it's an IM giant, is getting ranked somewhere with Loyola and Rush on my ROL. Penn, Northwestern, and & Vanderbilt supercede my interest in UCSF now. Allow this to be an example of subjectivity in the match people! Still, this doesn't negate my comments earlier, on how to decipher somewhat a match list.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...s/2013/08/applicantresultsbyspecialty2013.pdf

I think this one coincides with our discussion

 

[Optimus-Prime]

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

As does this

 

[ventulus18]

For specialties with fewer number of matches overall, there are speciality specific lists out there.

e.g. http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/Rank_List_2014/

 

[mvenus929]

Are you talking about UVA? UVA isn't top 25, I don't think... Anyways, prestige is actually pretty low on the list of the things residency directors consider. Letters of recc and step scores are more important.

We hover around 25. I think we're technically like 26 right now, but we were 22 within the past 3 years.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I actually was considering UCSF for IM, but less than 2/3 of their IM residents go onto sub-specialize. I don't know if this is self-selecting or if the program pushes it on people, but I have keen intentions of sub-specializing within IM, and that is a factor I am considering - what proportion of people from a program eventually sub-specialize (for as many people at MGH or UCSF that simply want to be a GP or whatever, there are likely an equal if not greater number of people that wanted to sub-specialize but didn't match to a fellowship.) UCSF, although it's an IM giant, is getting ranked somewhere with Loyola and Rush on my ROL. Penn, Northwestern, and & Vanderbilt supercede my interest in UCSF now. Allow this to be an example of subjectivity in the match people! Still, this doesn't negate my comments earlier, on how to decipher somewhat a match list.

Vanderbilt seems to be a golden destination for a lot of things

 

[Gifted Hands]

First @Psai tells me theres no magical impartation in medical school, then @Gifted Hands calls me snooty and presumptuous.

Whats next? are you gonna try to convince me being able to bench press a bunch won't get me an ortho spot!

I wasn't really referring to anyone in particular but... Ok.

I heard they make you bench at all ortho interviews but what do I know

 

[bakedbeans18]

Vanderbilt seems to be a golden destination for a lot of things

Well, I was really pointing it out because I'm placing some of the big 4 institutions beneath non-big 4 institutions for IM.

My R.O.L. is going to look something like this:

Northwestern
UChicago
Vanderbilt
Penn
MGH
B&W
BIDMC
Columbia
Loyola
Rush
Cleveland Clinic Foundation
UCSF
...et al...

NO, I am not suggesting that I already know my ROL. I'm saying I would attend a litany of places not considered quite on the same level as UCSF, before considering UCSF. As much as I love San Francisco, I want to go to a program with a very strong track record of placing people into fellowship.

"But bakedbeans, why would you go to Penn or Vanderbilt over MGH?"

Well, that answer is pretty simple. New York Giants for life.

 

[bakedbeans18]

I wasn't really referring to anyone in particular but... Ok.

I heard they make you bench at all ortho interviews but what do I know

and they make fun of crossfitters!

 

[Gifted Hands]

Your #MagicHate is not very becoming of an aspiring young physician

This is my other SDN pet peeve. Throwing the "I feel bad for your patients"/"you'll be a horrible doctor" bomb at people. DOCTORS ARE PEOPLE! Not magical beings with superb morals and special powers. Just NORMAL, average humans.

Sorry dude don't mean to pick on you in particular

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I wasn't really referring to anyone in particular but... Ok.

I heard they make you bench at all ortho interviews but what do I know

You're right.
The dude with the tie is an ortho department chair.