Match Day 2014

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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Gifted Hands said:
This is my other SDN pet peeve. Throwing the "I feel bad for your patients"/"you'll be a horrible doctor" bomb at people. DOCTORS ARE PEOPLE! Not magical beings with superb morals and special powers. Just NORMAL, average humans.

Sorry dude don't mean to pick on you in particular
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A little bit of sarcasm and humor never killed anyone, I'm sure @Psai dislike of magic will not hurt his career, but it certainly won't help!
 
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3838 said:
Even if you didn't get the fuzzies when you visited? Even if you got the impression (and were told by multiple people) that the students were very stressed out? Even if they make you take a practice USMLE 10 days before the exam (Ask a marathon runner if he wants to run a marathon 10 days before the actual marathon. He will respond the same way I have to this. I didn't take full lengths when I studied for the MCAT because when I did the first time I studied, they just stressed me out. A lot. Way too much. I gained absolutely nothing from them.) ) I really don't think I would be terribly happy at the school that will leave me with 48 K of less of debt over four years. And TBH, I feel like my happiness is worth more than 48K. But hey, maybe it's not. It definitely wasn't in undergrad. (although in that case, it was 200K in debt vs. get paid 5K a year to go to school. big diff!)

By the way, would any current residents explain how certain amounts of debt impact your QOL post med school? Numbers like 250,000 and 300,000 are so big that honestly, I don't feel the difference between them. Either way I'm in six figures of debt...
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You certainly shouldn't be miserable with your choice...your happiness should have a relative price tag, but do note that all medical students are stressed out. Perhaps when you were there, it was a block week or something else particular which was acutely increasing the anxiety/stress amongst the students.

I am quite curious how the school forces you to take a practice exam 10 days before you take step1, when it is you who schedules your actual step 1, not the school. Anyway, if you really don't think you will be happy there, then don't go; however, just remember that a difference of 48k is significant--every penny of debt counts. Don't think oh, well I'm already 250K in debt, what's another 48k? You should think, holy ****, I have 250K in debt, how can I stop that from going even higher.
 
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Gifted Hands said:
I heard they make you bench at all ortho interviews but what do I know
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AMVBF.png
 
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JT3 said:
I find this to be a strong match

http://smp.georgetown.edu/matchday2014

Can we agree on that? At least from my opinion Georgetown tends to always do pretty well (I know its just the SMP, but still interesting to see)
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Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, and Alonzo Mourning were all ranked high coming out of G-town.

But joking aside, it seems that a 5 year med school track has a lot of advantages. I'm sure that's one of the reasons for the success of Stanford students (60% finish in 5 years due to the required scholarly concentration).
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, and Alonzo Mourning were all ranked high coming out of G-town.

But joking aside, it seems that a 5 year med school track has a lot of advantages. I'm sure that's one of the reasons for the success of Stanford students (60% finish in 5 years due to the required scholarly concentration).
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God thats a lot of money + Living in Georgetown/D.C.
 
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JT3 said:
God thats a lot of money + Living in Georgetown/D.C.
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It depends on how you look at it. For certain specialties a year of research MS MPH etc really help a ton. For example, this sort of project can only help with an ortho match (especially coming from a very renowned department):
http://www.orthogate.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8781

You can view an extra year as an investment in some cases (ortho surgeons tend to do pretty well salary-wise) so the extra $$ you spend for the 5th year will yield good returns. My friend did this for ENT and it worked out really well for him.
 
JT3 said:
I find this to be a strong match

http://smp.georgetown.edu/matchday2014

Can we agree on that? At least from my opinion Georgetown tends to always do pretty well (I know its just the SMP, but still interesting to see)
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They had a great match this year.

I'm friends with a few of the people on that list (Stanford nsx, UCSF peds, and Harvard ob/gyn). They're all very smart and hardworking with tons of research experience (busted their ass though out the SMP and med school).
 
JT3 said:
Are you saying cedars, JH, and CC shouldn't be ranked so high?

I'm sure any of the higher tier medical schools have a well regarded program. I'm a fan of many other programs, but its nearly impossible to speculate without having done a rotation there.

Nice thing about having orthogate, but even those reviews can only be taken with a grain of salt
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I'm sure those three hospitals met the US news criteria for their ranking in that specialty. What I'm saying is that US News is a horrible way to determine the quality of a residency program. For example, in the specialty you mentioned, the Cedars program is 2 or 3 years old, has never graduated a class (unknown fellowship placement), and is a total wild card. It may be an excellent hospital for that specialty, but would not be in anyone's (except, I suppose, a pre-medical student's) list of top programs.

The second bolded statement is simply incorrect.
 
JJMrK said:
I'm sure those three hospitals met the US news criteria for their ranking in that specialty. What I'm saying is that US News is a horrible way to determine the quality of a residency program. For example, in the specialty you mentioned, the Cedars program is 2 or 3 years old, has never graduated a class (unknown fellowship placement), and is a total wild card. It may be an excellent hospital for that specialty, but would not be in anyone's (except, I suppose, a pre-medical student's) list of top programs.

The second bolded statement is simply incorrect.
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The any should be many,

You put the cedars, I was more skeptical about the disinterest in JH and CC. I got a soft spot for cedars from an old APO-Milano project (can't help it)

US news is just an arbitrary ranking system that is more of a prestige identifier than anything. The real argument is how you evaluate a residency on the basis of its recognition. The NRMP data I posted on page 5 shows strong correlations to people wanting prestige, and program directors wanting people from prestigious places. Its not the end all be all, but certainly a component to be factored when evaluating a potential residency spot.
 
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JT3 said:
The any should be many,

You put the cedars, I was more skeptical about the disinterest in JH and CC. I got a soft spot for cedars from an old APO-Milano project (can't help it)

US news is just an arbitrary ranking system that is more of a prestige identifier than anything. The real argument is how you evaluate a residency on the basis of its recognition. The NRMP data I posted on page 5 shows strong correlations to people wanting prestige, and program directors wanting people from prestigious places. Its not the end all be all, but certainly a component to be factored when evaluating a potential residency spot.
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ApoA1 Milano was the focal point of one of my medical school interviews.
If only esperion hadn't sold out to Pfizer....heart disease might not be the leading cause of death in the U.S. today.
 
bakedbeans18 said:
ApoA1 Milano was the focal point of one of my medical school interviews.
If only esperion hadn't sold out to Pfizer....heart disease might not be the leading cause of death in the U.S. today.
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Its incredible isn't it, makes you wonder about the pharmaceutical industry
 
For surgical residencies I wonder if there's a way to know how many cases a resident actually logs in (i.e. doing most or all of the procedure). And obviously, this doesn't include holding the retractor while the world famous attending operates. This is why I'm wary of some of the more "prestigious" hospitals for surgical training.
 
JT3 said:
The any should be many,

You put the cedars, I was more skeptical about the disinterest in JH and CC. I got a soft spot for cedars from an old APO-Milano project (can't help it)

US news is just an arbitrary ranking system that is more of a prestige identifier than anything. The real argument is how you evaluate a residency on the basis of its recognition. The NRMP data I posted on page 5 shows strong correlations to people wanting prestige, and program directors wanting people from prestigious places. Its not the end all be all, but certainly a component to be factored when evaluating a potential residency spot.
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CC does not automatically mean prestige.

Case in point:
my.clevelandclinic.org/childrens-hospital/medical-professionals/education/pediatric-residency/residents.aspx

We have 80% foreign grads/DO here.

Obviously this is the exception but exceptions exist more than you think.
 
JT3 said:
The any should be many,

You put the cedars, I was more skeptical about the disinterest in JH and CC. I got a soft spot for cedars from an old APO-Milano project (can't help it)

US news is just an arbitrary ranking system that is more of a prestige identifier than anything. The real argument is how you evaluate a residency on the basis of its recognition. The NRMP data I posted on page 5 shows strong correlations to people wanting prestige, and program directors wanting people from prestigious places. Its not the end all be all, but certainly a component to be factored when evaluating a potential residency spot.
Click to expand...

It's clear that you don't read anyone's posts but your own.
 
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Cyberdyne 101 said:
For surgical residencies I wonder if there's a way to know how many cases a resident actually logs in (i.e. doing most or all of the procedure). And obviously, this doesn't include holding the retractor while the world famous attending operates. This is why I'm wary of some of the more "prestigious" hospitals for surgical training.
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All surgical residents are required to log their cases. It is a requirement for board certification and their are certain numbers in different categories that you have to hit to graduate.

Not all programs publish their logs, nor should they. It's similar to match lists. The meaning of a case log is incredibly hard to know. I know some friends who simply stopped logging the day they met the requirements; I know others who view it as a competition and log as many as they possibly can.

And I go to a "prestigious" hospital and will finish with >1200 cases and high complexity. After 3 years of training I have already met all the required numbers for graduation (except obviously the required number of chief resident cases which you can't log until you are a chief).
 
Thanks for the info. And by no means was I implying that "prestigious" institutions do not offer superb surgical training. For example I usually hear that places like Vanderbilt offer the best of both worlds. But an attending at one of the major NY academic centers once told me that some places really lag in terms of training surgeons. But I guess much of this can also be attributed to the efforts of each individual.

But it's good to know that there is some level of standardization.
 
southernIM said:
All surgical residents are required to log their cases. It is a requirement for board certification and their are certain numbers in different categories that you have to hit to graduate.

Not all programs publish their logs, nor should they. It's similar to match lists. The meaning of a case log is incredibly hard to know. I know some friends who simply stopped logging the day they met the requirements; I know others who view it as a competition and log as many as they possibly can.

And I go to a "prestigious" hospital and will finish with >1200 cases and high complexity. After 3 years of training I have already met all the required numbers for graduation (except obviously the required number of chief resident cases which you can't log until you are a chief).
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It sounds he's asking how you find out whether the residents are intimately involved in the cases versus just watching?
 
thesauce said:
It sounds he's asking how you find out whether the residents are intimately involved in the cases versus just watching?
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No case log is going to tell you that. And determining the degree of autonomy residents get in the OR is one of the most challenging things for surgery residency applicants to figure out. It's certainly way too nuanced for pre-meds looking at match lists to be able to get. The only real way to assess it is direct observation (i.e. your home program or away rotations), and even then students don't always know what to look for.

It's certainly not as simple as "big name" academia = bad autonomy.
 
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southernIM said:
No case log is going to tell you that. And determining the degree of autonomy residents get in the OR is one of the most challenging things for surgery residency applicants to figure out. It's certainly way too nuanced for pre-meds looking at match lists to be able to get. The only real way to assess it is direct observation (i.e. your home program or away rotations), and even then students don't always know what to look for.

It's certainly not as simple as "big name" academia = bad autonomy.
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Do you feel like going to a more reputable place played a role in the complexity of the cases you encountered? I was reading the breakdown of cases for spine at JHU, the amount of congenital defects they dealt with were substantially higher than everywhere else.
 
Can someone explain to me how there are oral and maxillofacial surgery matches? And why they always seem to happen at the home institution? I thought these were only for dentists.
 
Oh and if you're looking for a perfect match list look no further than Penn, even their primary care matches are gorgeous.
 
southernIM said:
No case log is going to tell you that. And determining the degree of autonomy residents get in the OR is one of the most challenging things for surgery residency applicants to figure out. It's certainly way too nuanced for pre-meds looking at match lists to be able to get. The only real way to assess it is direct observation (i.e. your home program or away rotations), and even then students don't always know what to look for.

It's certainly not as simple as "big name" academia = bad autonomy.
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You can't learn unless you ask your elders :unsure:. Which is why I asked. I am a pre-med but I have spoken to residents that said they wish they had known more about the specifics of training before applying (and matching) at certain programs.
 
JT3 said:
Do you feel like going to a more reputable place played a role in the complexity of the cases you encountered? I was reading the breakdown of cases for spine at JHU, the amount of congenital defects they dealt with were substantially higher than everywhere else.
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I mean to some degree that's the definition of being at a tertiary/quaternary referral center.

But I think there are going to be complex cases to some degree everywhere, and having an adequate amount of bread and butter stuff too isn't a bad thing. For general surgery for example, med students and applicants seem to obsess over whipple #s; whereas once they make it to practice only a tiny percent of them will ever see the pancreas again.
 
southernIM said:
I mean to some degree that's the definition of being at a tertiary/quaternary referral center.

But I think there are going to be complex cases to some degree everywhere, and having an adequate amount of bread and butter stuff too isn't a bad thing. For general surgery for example, med students and applicants seem to obsess over whipple #s; whereas once they make it to practice only a tiny percent of them will ever see the pancreas again.
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Having had the experience you've had, do feel a pull towards academic medicine? Or the opposite
 
Serous Demilune said:
Can someone explain to me how there are oral and maxillofacial surgery matches? And why they always seem to happen at the home institution? I thought these were only for dentists.
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These are for dentists. They go through medical school usually like a linkage program and match to an intern year and their maxillofacial residency
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
You can't learn unless you ask your elders :unsure:. Which is why I asked. I am a pre-med but I have spoken to residents that said they wish they had known more about the specifics of training before applying (and matching) at certain programs.
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But do they wish to know more as a pre-med, or as a third year student getting ready to apply? Some of my classmates are taking a year off for various reasons (ranging from doing a dual-degree program to family reasons), and I'm sure that the ones going into peds will ask for more information about programs to apply and about our home programs as we go through intern year. But again, that's something that you should have an adviser for leading into and during fourth year.
 
mvenus929 said:
But do they wish to know more as a pre-med, or as a third year student getting ready to apply? Some of my classmates are taking a year off for various reasons (ranging from doing a dual-degree program to family reasons), and I'm sure that the ones going into peds will ask for more information about programs to apply and about our home programs as we go through intern year. But again, that's something that you should have an adviser for leading into and during fourth year.
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This is purely anecdotal but a thoracic resident once told me to get more info about specialties earlier in med school because advisement isn't always there (and that knowing about them prior only helps, as long as you keep an open mind). He said (obviously) that it's really difficult to turn back at a certain point (and he basically admitted to wanting a do-over). A few other residents have told me that they wished they had known about certain specialties such as pm&r and usually discover them after committing to something else. And what's wrong with asking as a pre-med anyway?! I once got an amazing shadowing opportunity because I was asking these sorts of questions.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
This is purely anecdotal but a thoracic resident once told me to get more info about specialties earlier in med school because advisement isn't always there (and that knowing about them prior only helps, as long as you keep an open mind). He said (obviously) that it's really difficult to turn back at a certain point (and he basically admitted to wanting a do-over). A few other residents have told me that they wished they had known about certain specialties such as pm&r and usually discover them after committing to something else. And what's wrong with asking as a pre-med anyway?! I once got an amazing shadowing opportunity because I was asking these sorts of questions.
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You seem to be talking about two separate issues. One is knowing the quality of residency programs, which isn't important to know as a pre-med, because it's something you learn about once you've committed to a specialty. The other is getting exposure to different specialties, which I highly encourage. This is why having interest groups that cater to the first and second years is key, and you need some people going into those specialties to keep the interest groups going. By all means, explore. But you don't really need to know the nitty gritty of a residency as a pre-med.
 
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mvenus929 said:
You seem to be talking about two separate issues. One is knowing the quality of residency programs, which isn't important to know as a pre-med, because it's something you learn about once you've committed to a specialty. The other is getting exposure to different specialties, which I highly encourage. This is why having interest groups that cater to the first and second years is key, and you need some people going into those specialties to keep the interest groups going. By all means, explore. But you don't really need to know the nitty gritty of a residency as a pre-med.
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Point well taken about the nitty gritty as a pre-med and about talking about 2 separate things because I kinda was. But on a personal note, my curiosity about training developed by having poorly diagnosed, but resolvable MSK issues as an adolescent. After finally finding a good physiatrist I realized how much the quality of training (or lack of) can impact things for patients. And she (my doc) told me we have a long way to go in terms of better training physicians for certain conditions (and unfortunately the treatment of MSK problems is like the Wild West. There are like 100 million Americans living with chronic pain and they can get better treatment if this were taken more seriously on various levels). I guess this is where a lot of my curiosity stems from. I've had several physicians give me a diagnosis without performing an adequate MSK exam and this is probably attributed to training.
So yeah, if something impacts you personally (especially as a pre-med) it makes you prone to ask questions that are seemingly pretentious to others.

Also, an ortho surgeon I shadowed does a lot of revision cases and he's published on inadequate training that ortho surgeons get for certain procedures so I guess this also generates more curiosity on my part.
 
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Anyone have the NYMC match list WITH the students' names on them? What about UMDNJ/NJMS/Rutgers lists and SUNY Stony Brook lists?
Thanks!
 
Serous Demilune said:
Can someone explain to me how there are oral and maxillofacial surgery matches? And why they always seem to happen at the home institution? I thought these were only for dentists.
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Our school has 2 OMFS students each year. They have already gone through 4 years of dental school and they have to go through 4 years of medical school too. I don't know how it works at other institutions, but at ours, the OMFS students are already working as residents during med school. They have their own OMFS match dealio, but they also have to go through the NRMP from what I understand.
 
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Baylor College of Medicine. Solid match list :)

BCM Match List_2014.jpg
 
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