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Are DO's always ranked higher than "Big 4" Caribbean (e.g. St. George's, AUC) grads with similar stats?
You are much better off staying in the US and I would go D.O. vs a Caribbean school any day of the week, regardless of what specialty you end up choosing. Your odds are much better given that there is an increasing pool of graduating medical students but the number of residency slots have remained about the same.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of subjective factors that go into a rank list (like how well you get along with the interviewers or if the program coordinator thinks you're creepy - yes, that actually was brought up as an issue about one applicant during a rank meeting I had the chance to sit in on).
However, under most circumstances, you're generally better off staying in the US for med school if you have the option.
Thanks for the info. As long as I have a good chance of matching at some psychiatry program from a big 4 carib (assuming that I get a decent score on step 1 on my first try, and I show a genuine interest in psych) I'm satisfied.
Well, I'm 99% certain that I want to go into psychiatry, and I would prefer to have an MD over a DO because I'm a bit uncomfortable having a degree that the public is mostly ignorant of (though I have absolutely no bias against DOs myself).
It's your call but a better criteria would be cost location and connections to your desired residency location. The DO schools have the obvious advantage of being within this country. Lecom has a decent price as would the state funded schools I would imagine. NyCom and the carib prices are obscene from my investigations.
But with seismic economic shifts afoot. I would've only gone carib pre-2008. Way too many risks for that kind of money and for that little stateside connection. Do as you like though.
Well as a Caribbean student I can tell you that you will face harsher criticism from both the general public as well as the medical community. Also there are so many headaches that I have to deal with on a day-to-day basis, half the time I have no idea what my next step will be. Our pass rate for USMLE is lower, we struggle to get good rotations sites and finance is just the top of my stress list.
Are DO's always ranked higher than "Big 4" Caribbean (e.g. St. George's, AUC) grads with similar stats?
What Caribbean school do you go to? IMHO there is a lot of variation in the quality of Caribbean schools just as there is in the quality of DO schools. As far as I can tell, the main advantage of going to a DO school is having access to the DO residencies, but the prospect of having a degree that the public is ignorant of mostly negates that advantage (in my mind, at least).
What Caribbean school do you go to? IMHO there is a lot of variation in the quality of Caribbean schools just as there is in the quality of DO schools. As far as I can tell, the main advantage of going to a DO school is having access to the DO residencies, but the prospect of having a degree that the public is ignorant of mostly negates that advantage (in my mind, at least).
DO vs. Carib ignorance or not, the fact that I saw no DO or Carib folk on the residency interview trail and only MDs from recognized name schools should highlight the point that you should aim for the best program you can land. At psych interviews at Stanford, Harvard, the UCLAs, UCSD, UCSF, Yale and the like were graduates from.... well... Stanford, Harvard, the UCLAs, UCSD, UCSF, Yale and the like.
To be fair, you don't need to attend a big name program to be an excellent doctor. Two of my roll models were DO physicians and they were awesome, one in psych and one in PM&R.
It's funny when people speak of the Big 3 or Big 4 Carib schools. That's like saying I own a yellow Pinto, a much more respectable and prestigious car than your blue Chevy Nova.
Just one small thing: outside the US, being a DO might not be accepted - period. The foreign schools are just that - so the MD is accredited by the government (and that's what gets them listed in the "Green Book"). The MD is accepted at par with the MBBS, MBBCh, MBBChBAO, the titulo, and all the other national equivalents. Outside of North America (actually, the US and Canada), you might not even make it through the door as a DO, as a matter of law.
It's quite a small point, but just one. Osteopaths in the UK are, from what I know, much more in the spirit of Andrew Taylor Still, but also resemble chiropractors. Osteopaths in the UK cannot work as GPs or consultant physicians.
I should have researched further. What I knew about the UK and DOs changed in 2005.
Thanks for the update.
That doesn't fit my experience. I interviewed at some of those programs and many like it and the applicant pool was WAY more diverse than that. I didn't see any Carib folks, but I definitely saw some DOs and also MDs from a big variety of programs, including some that would not be top-half ranked by whoever is doing that.DO vs. Carib ignorance or not, the fact that I saw no DO or Carib folk on the residency interview trail and only MDs from recognized name schools should highlight the point that you should aim for the best program you can land. At psych interviews at Stanford, Harvard, the UCLAs, UCSD, UCSF, Yale and the like were graduates from.... well... Stanford, Harvard, the UCLAs, UCSD, UCSF, Yale and the like.
Might be where you interviewed or regional. Most interviews I did were at academic west coast programs and I only ran into a few.I don't know where you guys were interviewing. I went on 15 interviews (over 25 invites), and at almost every interview, the DO applicants outnumbered the MD applicants.
May be the case for you, but the argument doesn't fly as a whole. I also heard almost every DO talk about wanting to do primary care at the jump but most of these folks seem to end up wanting to do the same thing as every other doctor.As a general rule, most DO applicants aren't interested in the high powered research places. In fact, that's one reason I went to DO school. I'm not a researcher and don't want to do it.
I don't know where you guys were interviewing. I went on 15 interviews (over 25 invites), and at almost every interview, the DO applicants outnumbered the MD applicants.
As a general rule, most DO applicants aren't interested in the high powered research places. In fact, that's one reason I went to DO school. I'm not a researcher and don't want to do it.
I didn't apply to Stanford, UCLA, or Yale, and neither did any of my DO psych applying classmates. Mostly because I had ZERO interest in living in those places.
I should add that the places I did go where places like UVA, MUSC, UK, WVU, Indiana, Iowa. Good University programs for the most part.
I don't know where you guys were interviewing. I went on 15 interviews (over 25 invites), and at almost every interview, the DO applicants outnumbered the MD applicants.
As a general rule, most DO applicants aren't interested in the high powered research places. In fact, that's one reason I went to DO school. I'm not a researcher and don't want to do it.
I didn't apply to Stanford, UCLA, or Yale, and neither did any of my DO psych applying classmates. Mostly because I had ZERO interest in living in those places.
I should add that the places I did go where places like UVA, MUSC, UK, WVU, Indiana, Iowa. Good University programs for the most part.
That doesn't fit my experience. I interviewed at some of those programs and many like it and the applicant pool was WAY more diverse than that. I didn't see any Carib folks, but I definitely saw some DOs and also MDs from a big variety of programs, including some that would not be top-half ranked by whoever is doing that.
This makes sense. It appears that we didn't apply to the same programs at all. I hit the big name programs, including a few outstanding county programs that I thought offered better training than some of the famous names (for example, I thought UCLA-Harbor offered more thorough and rigorous training as compared to Stanford and Yale even). If this is a reflection of where MDs and DOs apply in general, then it explains the completely different experiences and demographics seen. Thanks digitlnoize for sharing.
Those folks are rock stars. Going to dental AND med school? I've only met a handful of them but they were all incredibly bright. Must self select.I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the third path yet: DDS -> maxillofacial surgery fellowship where you earn MD in process -> ACGME match -> psych residency.
If he was a maxofaciallary (sp?) surgeon, he IS an MD. The path is dental school--> dental internship --> medical school --> MFS residency....i had a friend years ago who wanted to be an MD, until he figured out how much money maxillary facial surgeons made. He's rollin' in it somewhere. Last time I saw him, he was leaving for dental school.
If he was a maxofaciallary (sp?) surgeon, he IS an MD. The path is dental school--> dental internship --> medical school --> MFS residency....
Just one small thing: outside the US, being a DO might not be accepted - period. The foreign schools are just that - so the MD is accredited by the government (and that's what gets them listed in the "Green Book"). The MD is accepted at par with the MBBS, MBBCh, MBBChBAO, the titulo, and all the other national equivalents. Outside of North America (actually, the US and Canada), you might not even make it through the door as a DO, as a matter of law.
The US MD is not on par with the Carib MD in terms of international practicing rights. You will have a much harder time finding nations that will allow you to practice as a Carib grad than as a US DO (I believe 55 nations for DO vs 40 for SGU).
If he was a maxofaciallary (sp?) surgeon, he IS an MD. The path is dental school--> dental internship --> medical school --> MFS residency....
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of DO schools with dental school that offer this with the DO degree.
I think NSU in Ft Lauderdale might. Or Michigan state. LECOM just opened a dental school in Bradenton and could very well offer this degree in the future, but not yet.
I could, of course, be wrong.
I could be wrong.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of DO schools with dental school that offer this with the DO degree.
I think NSU in Ft Lauderdale might. Or Michigan state. LECOM just opened a dental school in Bradenton and could very well offer this degree in the future, but not yet.
I could, of course, be wrong.
I could be wrong.
I think you are putting things in the wrong order. The St. George's list is where people have gone to practice. The list you provided is not an all-encompassing list where, if a nation is not on it, the grad cannot practice there.
Just please try to be objective, instead of the pro-DO slant. "Much harder time"? It sounds like it is pretty difficult for DO's in the list on Wiki (provided by the AOA).
I didn't go DO because I do not believe in the osteopathic philosophy. I did not want to take a spot from someone who did. I was guessing that 50% of DO's were "true believers"; a person I know that went DO said "try 10%" - that 90%, in his estimation, didn't believe in it.
If he was a maxofaciallary (sp?) surgeon, he IS an MD. The path is dental school--> dental internship --> medical school --> MFS residency....
I don't think all the programs give you the MD. I was talking to some people in the program here about this, and that's what they told me. Brutal path, imo, regardless. But yes, maybe lots of money, and maybe super enjoyable for some folks.
BTW, it's not the schooling part that sounds miserable. The folks here have to do TWO surgery internships. Yikes.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the third path yet: DDS -> maxillofacial surgery fellowship where you earn MD in process -> ACGME match -> psych residency.
Are DO's always ranked higher than "Big 4" Caribbean (e.g. St. George's, AUC) grads with similar stats?