Maximum GPA to consider postbacc/SMP

[doctorleospaceman]

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[wasteofspace323]

38/39 MCAT

 

[doctorleospaceman]

I am aware that I have an MCAT score, that as Goro would say, is nothing to sneeze at. But that is because I knew my GPA did not demonstrate my real potential so I had to put all my eggs in one basket and luckily the stars aligned for me.

However seeing as my GPA is on the way bottom end of even my state school, I can't help but at least wonder about the idea of a postbacc/SMP.

I feel like everyone here either has a <3.1 and does a postbacc/SMP or has a competitive GPA while I am hovering somewhere in the middle.

 

[mehc012]

I am aware that I have an MCAT score, that as Goro would say, is nothing to sneeze at. But that is because I knew my GPA did not demonstrate my real potential so I had to put all my eggs in one basket and luckily the stars aligned for me.

However seeing as my GPA is on the way bottom end of even my state school, I can't help but at least wonder about the idea of a postbacc/SMP.

I feel like everyone here either has a <3.1 and does a postbacc/SMP or has a competitive GPA while I am hovering somewhere in the middle.

Read around...there are a few people who fit your pattern.
I graduated with under a 3.2, did some postbacc courses DIY in the evenings during my gap years (~20credits), and am now applying with a 3.3/40. Of course no acceptances yet, but I've had 2 early interviews, 2 more coming up, and only 2 rejections out of 25 thus far. You have to cast a wider net with unusual stats, but if you can sell your story, you should be fine.

I would start looking at DIY postbaccs if you're under a 3.4 and need to show an upward trend. If you've already got the trend, probably only do DIY if you're under a 3.3. SMPs shouldn't be considered until the 3-3.1 range, perhaps 3.2 if you can't manage a decent MCAT.

I see no reason for a formal postbacc unless you are a career changer.

 

[jlh19]

So what are we classifying as a post bacc and as an SMP? I think I'm just confused by the terminology

 

[doctorleospaceman]

Read around...there are a few people who fit your pattern.
I graduated with under a 3.2, did some postbacc courses DIY in the evenings during my gap years (~20credits), and am now applying with a 3.3/40. Of course no acceptances yet, but I've had 2 early interviews, 2 more coming up, and only 2 rejections out of 25 thus far. You have to cast a wider net with unusual stats, but if you can sell your story, you should be fine.

I would start looking at DIY postbaccs if you're under a 3.4 and need to show an upward trend. If you've already got the trend, probably only do DIY if you're under a 3.3. SMPs shouldn't be considered until the 3-3.1 range, perhaps 3.2 if you can't manage a decent MCAT.

I see no reason for a formal postbacc unless you are a career changer.

Thank you, this is the kinda answer I was looking for.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm generally not a fan of doing an SMP if you have over a 3.3

 

[wasteofspace323]

I am aware that I have an MCAT score, that as Goro would say, is nothing to sneeze at. But that is because I knew my GPA did not demonstrate my real potential so I had to put all my eggs in one basket and luckily the stars aligned for me.

However seeing as my GPA is on the way bottom end of even my state school, I can't help but at least wonder about the idea of a postbacc/SMP.

I feel like everyone here either has a <3.1 and does a postbacc/SMP or has a competitive GPA while I am hovering somewhere in the middle.

Sorry, I wasn't criticizing you. I was just drunk.

 

[gyngyn]

A high MCAT and low gpa brings to mind a special list of problems. Unless you show that you have it under control, you are considered high risk. A sustained period of academic success will usually do the trick.

 

[doctorleospaceman]

A high MCAT and low gpa brings to mind a special list of problems. Unless you show that you have it under control, you are considered high risk. A sustained period of academic success will usually do the trick.

Hypothetically, wouldn't a high GPA low MCAT bring up more questions?

In my experience GPA is a poor demonstrator of academic ability since there are so many factors that can play a role. I feel like you can really only use it to compare students who took the same class at the same college with the same professor. (Given a non-drastic difference in GPA for comparison. Obviously a student with a 3.8 is better than a 2.8, but the difference between say a 3.5 and a 3.7 is hard to distinguish.)

 

[gyngyn]

Hypothetically, wouldn't a high GPA low MCAT bring up more questions?

No. This is a completely different DDx (and much more common).

 

[Petrichor1]

I am aware that I have an MCAT score, that as Goro would say, is nothing to sneeze at. But that is because I knew my GPA did not demonstrate my real potential so I had to put all my eggs in one basket and luckily the stars aligned for me.

However seeing as my GPA is on the way bottom end of even my state school, I can't help but at least wonder about the idea of a postbacc/SMP.

I feel like everyone here either has a <3.1 and does a postbacc/SMP or has a competitive GPA while I am hovering somewhere in the middle.

if you are specifically feeling pessimistic, take part-time classes at a nearby uni. However, your mcat may actually earn you scholarships at some medical schools (low and mid tier) "if the stars align" again. There is no need for you to waste your time in a postbacca unless you're stuck in a pretty bad job circumstance where you wished you were a student again.

 

[doctorleospaceman]

if you are specifically feeling pessimistic, take part-time classes at a nearby uni. However, your mcat may actually earn you scholarships at some medical schools (low and mid tier) "if the stars align" again. There is no need for you to waste your time in a postbacca unless you're stuck in a pretty bad job circumstance where you wished you were a student again.

Thank you. Well I still have senior year left and thus far I am doing very well, with my last two semesters being my best, so looks like I jumped the gun a bit. Just nervous due to the silence this cycle and trying to plan a head.

 

[doctorleospaceman]

No. This is a completely different DDx (and much more common).

So does having it be more common make it less of a worry? Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like it's more important to prove that you actually retained and understood those years of information by doing well on the MCAT rather than just looked at the study guide a second before sitting down for a midterm and having a friendly curve help you out that not all professors give out like candy.

I 100% believe in looking at persional GPA trends in order to learn more about an applicants work ethic, but feel like comparing a student from a grade deflating school to one from a grade inflating school throws in too many variables.

P.S. Just feel like this whole application process is getting to me so I apologize if I come off as ignorant.

 

[md-2020]

I have had friends with <3.5/3.5 and 38+ matriculate to Top 10s. Non-URM, too. It depends on your ECs, interview, LORs.

The 38+ MCAT is stronger than your posts suggest you realize.

 

[gyngyn]

So does having it be more common make it less of a worry? Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like it's more important to prove that you actually retained and understood those years of information by doing well on the MCAT rather than just looked at the study guide a second before sitting down for a midterm and having a friendly curve help you out that not all professors give out like candy.

I 100% believe in looking at persional GPA trends in order to learn more about an applicants work ethic, but feel like comparing a student from a grade deflating school to one from a grade inflating school throws in too many variables.

P.S. Just feel like this whole application process is getting to me so I apologize if I come off as ignorant.

What do you think we consider as an explanation when we see dissonant MCAT/gpa (with high MCAT)?

 

[Petrichor1]

Thank you. Well I still have senior year left and thus far I am doing very well, with my last two semesters being my best, so looks like I jumped the gun a bit. Just nervous due to the silence this cycle and trying to plan a head.

Yea I can understand your trepidation. If your gpa is not where you want it to be, it could help by taking classes the summer you graduate to boost that gpa one final time but since you'll be applying anyways, that's just wasting precious moments that you'd rather spend with family. Congratulations on the amazing mcat, and I know that if you pick the right schools as back up and maybe also apply to dream schools at the same time, you are bound to find the school that is best for you.

 

[ZedsDed]

What do you think we consider as an explanation when we see dissonant MCAT/gpa (with high MCAT)?

Personally, I would guess:

1) Extreme rigor/grade-deflating environment.
2) Learning disability
3) Family/work commitments that get in the way of academics.
4) Laziness
5) Emotional instability/mental illness
6) Poor time-management skills.

 

[doctorleospaceman]

What do you think we consider as an explanation when we see dissonant MCAT/gpa (with high MCAT)?

Personally, I would guess:

1) Extreme rigor/grade-deflating environment.
2) Learning disability
3) Family/work commitments that get in the way of academics.
4) Laziness
5) Emotional instability/mental illness
6) Poor time-management skills.

Just to name a few. I don't think it's fair to narrow it down to laziness or poor time-management skills. I believe out of the 12 secondaries I filled out only one asked me to address any disparities in my application.

 

[ZedsDed]

I have had friends with <3.5/3.5 and 38+ matriculate to Top 10s. Non-URM, too. It depends on your ECs, interview, LORs.

The 38+ MCAT is stronger than your posts suggest you realize.

I think this may be because you are at an Ivy League school. I don't know a single person with those stats who ended up at a top 10.

 

[ZedsDed]

Just to name a few. I don't think it's fair to narrow it down to laziness or poor time-management skills. I believe out of the 12 secondaries I filled out only one asked me to address any disparities in my application.

One's specific situation doesn't have to include any of them, but it could be several of them. Point is it doesn't really look good, more often than not.

 

[ZedsDed]

To answer your OP, I would consider a postbacc if you do not have an upward trend. I would do two years, and apply at the end of the first year, but that's me.

You don't have much to gain from an SMP, and a whole lot to lose.

 

[doctorleospaceman]

One's specific situation doesn't have to include any of them, but it could be several of them. Point is it doesn't really look good, more often than not.

I don't see how going to a grade deflating school or having family/emotional problems crop up at inopportune times should mark you as a worse applicant.

 

[ZedsDed]

I don't see how going to a grade deflating school or having family/emotional problems crop up at inopportune times should mark you as a worse applicant.

That may be what explains your specific situation, but that doesn't apply to the majority of people with a GPA/MCAT discrepancy (see the postbacc forum for proof of this.) And the bold could be concerning for admissions committees that will wonder if your family problems will crop up at "inopportune times" during med school.

I'm just sharing with you everything I have been told over the last couple of years.

 

[deleted716403]

Before anyone gets snarky, yes, I am a student hovering around a 3.4c/sGPA and a 38/39 MCAT and am wondering about possible future options.

Your stats are good enough. No need for postbacc or SMP. You should at least get one acceptance.

 

[Favour517]

So does having it be more common make it less of a worry? Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like it's more important to prove that you actually retained and understood those years of information by doing well on the MCAT rather than just looked at the study guide a second before sitting down for a midterm and having a friendly curve help you out that not all professors give out like candy.

I 100% believe in looking at persional GPA trends in order to learn more about an applicants work ethic, but feel like comparing a student from a grade deflating school to one from a grade inflating school throws in too many variables.

P.S. Just feel like this whole application process is getting to me so I apologize if I come off as ignorant.

The MCAT doesnt test the ability to retain information learned in the course of three years. If you don't know how the exam works, content review can only help so much. Some people are better at standardized test than others.

 

[GrapesofRath]

To add off this SDN's standards of discordant stats are often shall we say a bit off. As a random example, a 3.57 or so and a 37 are not discordant stats. Few see a 3.57 as someone who is a red flag candidate. It might be low enough to keep you out of schools with 37 median MCATs(top 20 schools) but it's hardly some "significant" red flag.

Discordant stats would be more like a 3.27 with a 37 with no recent demonstration of strong academic performacne.

 

[Goro]

I'd a recommend a post-bac to someone who is gunning for a MD when they have a 3.3 or lower. I say this because the median GPA of acceptees is ~3.7.

Confounding this is state of residence. Some states have a bias for IS applicants and something ~3.3 might not be lethal for, say, U KS or LSU.

OP, your stats will get you into a decent number of MD schools and any DO school. Harvard? No, but Netter or Drexel? Good chance.

While I'm sitting here with silence from all the med schools I applied to...

I started wondering what most people would consider to be the maximum GPA to go for a postbacc/SMP. Obviously you shouldn't do it if you have a 3.6+, but what's the cutoff where you should start contemplating it?

I know the MCAT is a factor, but how much?

Before anyone gets snarky, yes, I am a student hovering around a 3.4c/sGPA and a 38/39 MCAT and am wondering about possible future options.

 

[intangible]

OP, your stats will get you into a decent number of MD schools and any DO school. Harvard? No, but Netter or Drexel? Good chance.

What are his chances at mid-tiers, though? I'm confident he could get into low-tier/new schools (given a decent application otherwise in terms of ECs, PS, interviews, etc.), but I'm less confident about his chances at schools with a little more name recognition.

 

[xc_stallion92]

So is it more to one's advantage to have a 3.4/32 than to have a 3.4/39+? At least that seems to be the vibe that is given off on this site.

 

[Conflagration]

So is it more to one's advantage to have a 3.4/32 than to have a 3.4/39+? At least that seems to be the vibe that is given off on this site.

I think they ask different questions. My gut would tell me that the 39+ would be a better position to be in, but I could be wrong.

A 3.4/32 says "Okay, they're consistent. But is that good enough to hack it in medical school?"

A 3.4/39 says "They can handle tests well, but what happened with that GPA? Is there a reason why that happened?"

 

[mehc012]

So is it more to one's advantage to have a 3.4/32 than to have a 3.4/39+? At least that seems to be the vibe that is given off on this site.

I think it's more that someone with a 3.4/39 needs to have a different story in their application, one which explains the discrepancy. If they do not do that, eyebrows will be raised. If they do, they will likely be in a better place than the more balanced, but still lowish end gpa, person.

 

[Goro]

The mid-tiers have median GPAs of 3.6+...so a 3.3 might be hard to crack. I always consider the 10th %ile line when making recommendations. Now keep in mind that somebody has to be in the bottom tenth %ile, so a strong upward trend, great ECs and that killer MCAT score OP has. As I like to say, nothing to sneeze at.

What are his chances at mid-tiers, though? I'm confident he could get into low-tier/new schools (given a decent application otherwise in terms of ECs, PS, interviews, etc.), but I'm less confident about his chances at schools with a little more name recognition.

 

[xc_stallion92]

Yeah I get that those are questions that will be asked, but I'm just not convinced that there's that big of a difference between a 3.4 and a 3.6 to begin with, which this site seems to think of as the absolute minimum threshold for going to med school. That's only like half a letter grade difference in a few classes, and still considered a good gpa by anyone who isn't a neurotic premed. I'm obviously not an adcom, so I could very easily be wrong, but looking at MCAT scores that are standardized across all test-takers would seem to me to be better.

 

[Conflagration]

Yeah I get that those are questions that will be asked, but I'm just not convinced that there's that big of a difference between a 3.4 and a 3.6 to begin with, which this site seems to think of as the absolute minimum threshold for going to med school. That's only like half a letter grade difference in a few classes, and still considered a good gpa by anyone who isn't a neurotic premed. I'm obviously not an adcom, so I could very easily be wrong, but looking at MCAT scores that are standardized across all test-takers would seem to me to be better.

I feel you- my oGPA is a 3.29, which is considered questionable at best. I have reasons for it also- I had realized I was a lesbian at the beginning of my freshman year and spent my college years hiding it, and I had to act as the parent to an older sibling while my parents traveled. I no longer have to worry about it when I go back, because I was disowned when I told them over the summer. So no more family pressure for me- but I don't know if it'll matter, since I have three years of crapshoot GPA semesters. I'm going to do my damnedest knock the MCAT out of the park and then roll the dice from there. (One thing I am thankful for- I'm focusing on just pre-reqs from here on out, so my BCPM GPA can grow from the 3.35 it's at presently.)

Did not mean to hijack your thread, OP, but don't feel alone. There's plenty of folks who have below-average GPAs who will be relying on their MCAT for an acceptance.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The problem with a 3.4/39 is that an applicant with a 39 will be seen a low yield by a number of lower tier schools, especially ones that get stacked with applications and have to sort through apps quickly and want to maximize the interviews they can give on people most likely to attend.

And of course, for schools where a 39 won't be seen as low yield(the big names), the 3.4 will be seen as rather low. That's the predicament 3.4/39's often have. Now, having said all that, there are many 3.4/39's who apply who find multiple acceptances. But you have to be a little careful in how you construct your list of schools and how you approach your app and it's main theme.

When talking about 10th percentile GPAs one general rule could be
Top 20 type schools: It'll be around a 3.6 give or take. Some 3.55. Some it might hover around 3.7.

Medium tiers: It can be anywhere from around a 3.4 to 3.5. For your Case Western, Emory types it's around a 3.5. For somewhere like Hofstra, it'll be somewhat lower.

Lower tiers: It can be anywhere from 3.3 to 3.5. Some like Drexel, it'll be in the 3.3-3.4 range. Others like Penn State, it'll be around a 3.5. For state schools it's often on the lower side(even with things getting more competitive there are many state schools with 10th percentile GPAs at 3.3 or lower).

 

[gyngyn]

Just to name a few. I don't think it's fair to narrow it down to laziness or poor time-management skills. I believe out of the 12 secondaries I filled out only one asked me to address any disparities in my application.

A 3.2 and a 39 MCAT would bring to mind the following:
1. Persistent relationship problems (family/romantic/roommate), unplanned pregnancy.
2. substance abuse
3. medical/psychiatric problems
4. judgement/ego issues regarding choice of major or classes.
5. untreated learning disabilities

 

[Conflagration]

A 3.2 and a 39 MCAT would bring to mind the following:
1. Persistent relationship problems (family/romantic/roommate), unplanned pregnancy.
2. substance abuse
3. medical/psychiatric problems
4. judgement/ego issues regarding choice of major or classes.
5. untreated learning disabilities

So, if someone was in that position, what should they do? Should they own that there were some problems, and try to demonstrate how everything is different? What would you suggest?

 

[mehc012]

So, if someone was in that position, what should they do? Should they own that there were some problems, and try to demonstrate how everything is different? What would you suggest?

Exactly...there is so much stigma associated with these things that I almost feel that it is better to keep it vague and demonstrate/explain how you've improved rather than point out which of those actually fits and then try to explain your improvement more concretely.

 

[gyngyn]

So, if someone was in that position, what should they do? Should they own that there were some problems, and try to demonstrate how everything is different? What would you suggest?

I suggest a sustained period of productivity and evidence that the reason for under-performance is under control/treatment.

 

[gyngyn]

Exactly...there is so much stigma associated with these things that I almost feel that it is better to keep it vague and demonstrate/explain how you've improved rather than point out which of those actually fits and then try to explain your improvement more concretely.

If left unexplained, we will fill in the blanks.

 

[sephora89]

I suggest a sustained period of productivity and evidence that the reason for under-performance is under control/treatment.

How would you define sustained period of productivity? 1 year? 2 years?

 

[gyngyn]

How would you define sustained period of productivity? 1 year? 2 years?

Yes. Gpa is a measure of coping, time management, resiliency, adaptability and often,teamwork, not just content.

 

[Conflagration]

yes.

Is productivity strictly academic? Or would having a job satisfy that requirement? Because I can't get into school for a while for financial reasons.

 

[sephora89]

If left unexplained, we will fill in the blanks.

I feel like I've seen Goro and others say on here that trying to explain poor grades or a poor MCAT comes off as making excuses. How would one go about addressing it? Definitely not in the PS, right? If one has an upward trend in grades, wouldn't it be better to let one's transcript speak for itself?

 

[gyngyn]

Is productivity strictly academic? Or would having a job satisfy that requirement? Because I can't get into school for a while for financial reasons.

Evaluations from work are extremely non-standardized and thus do not offset a low gpa.
They can help sometimes with interpersonal skills, though.

 

[gyngyn]

I feel like I've seen Goro and others say on here that trying to explain poor grades or a poor MCAT comes off as making excuses. How would one go about addressing it? Definitely not in the PS, right? Wouldn't it be better to let one's transcript speak for itself?

Globally weak scores do not benefit from explanation. Big discrepancies in gpa and MCAT do. There is usually somewhere to work it into the secondary.

 

[mehc012]

If left unexplained, we will fill in the blanks.

I didn't say wholly unexplained, I just feel no need to give very detailed specifics in my application. Frankly, from the interactions I have had during my clinical jobs and volunteering, I have very limited faith in the healthcare community as a whole to be able to react fairly towards anyone with any history of mental illness. All of the worst comments I have ever heard about the mentally ill came from healthcare providers, sometimes about very benign or young patients. Perhaps it's just bias accrued from primarily seeing the worst end of the spectrum - those who end up in the hospital and/or make a scene. At any rate, I am very cognizant of the fact that, in choosing a career in medicine, I am committing myself to a level of guardedness about these things that I have not felt obligated to maintain with any other group. I'd rather they 'fill in the blanks' with "oh, probably something from this list" than write me off the second I confirm something concrete that someone in the discussion happens to have a strong negative reaction to.

I have an explanation, it's just not a complete explanation...just enough to give me a jumping off point for discussing the progress I have made in the interim.

 

[gyngyn]

I'd rather they 'fill in the blanks' with "oh, probably something from this list" than write me off the second I confirm something concrete that someone in the discussion happens to have a strong negative reaction to.

That's a common choice.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Wasn't SDN resident mimelim one of those users with a 3.4/40? He certainly got in.