MD after PhD in Chemistry

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I am seriously considering attend a medical school after I'm done with my PhD in Chemistry. I have published in the #1 peer-reviewed ACS (American Chemical Society) journal in my field, (first authorship) and my ultimate goal is to publish in Science or Nature, or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS). The projects I'm currently working on right now is very close related to infectious diseases and drugs development.

When I'm done with my doctorate, I probably will need to do a post-bacc program for a year because I graduated from undergrad back in 2009. I am currently living next to a medical school (across the street), and they do offer a post-bacc program (certifiable) , but it's extremely costly (~15K).

There is a couple of professors from my department teaches at the medical school, and I may potentially use it as an advantage. I do not have any clinical experiences though. How critical is it to have it?

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I'd have to say you need to ask our resident Chem expert - QofQuimica. She went from Chem to MD, so she would have probably the most relevant information for you.

As for a post-bacc...do you already have all your pre-reqs done? If so, you'd probably need to just take a couple higher-level courses in Bio and/or math to show you know the information, and prep to take the MCAT.

I think as long as you do some physician shadowing and have at least one longer-term volunteer commitment, you should be ok. That is just my opinion from what I've seen on here though.
 
I do not have any clinical experiences though. How critical is it to have it?
If you don't have any clinical experience, you might as well not waste your time and money applying to med school at all. How do you know you want to be a physician if you've spent no time seeing what physicians do? Especially given that you're literally across the street from a med school (and presumably its hospital affiliate), you really have no excuse whatsoever to not at a bare minimum at least have spent some time shadowing.

As silleme said, you may not need to take any classes if you already took all the prereqs (a year each of gen chem, organic chem, physics, and biology with their respective labs) in college. Some med schools also require biochem, but you have almost certainly taken that already, so it shouldn't be an issue. While it is true that you finished college in 2009, you have been in school and have taken your grad school coursework since then, so it's not like you have no record of academic achievement over the past four years. I actually had a ten year gap between college and med school, and even then I did not have to retake any UG courses since I had much more recent grad school coursework for my PhD.

I'm saying all of this with the assumption that you have a decent UG GPA (hopefully 3.5+, and ideally 3.8+). If your UG GPA is below 3.3, you will be at a disadvantage and may want to consider a post bac for the purpose of grade rehabilitation. If your UG GPA is below a 3.0, you should definitely take some classes to rehabilitate your grades, as many schools will screen you out pre-interview with a GPA that low unless you've subsequently done well in a post bac.

I'm also saying this with the caveat, of course, that you will need to take the MCAT and do well on it. Treat the MCAT with respect. This is like your qual exam, not your GRE. Most people take 2-3 months to study for it, depending on how much review they need. And PhDs don't automatically do well on it. In fact, I would argue that all that grad school training puts you at a disadvantage, because you're now in the habit of thinking like an expert in your field, while the test is geared toward people with a college sophomore level understanding of it.

Any other questions, feel free to ask. There aren't tons of chemistry PhDs in medicine, but I've run across a handful of others, including one of the faculty at my current hospital.
 
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Thank you for your insightful feedback. The medical school next to where I live offer "A Day in the Life of a Medical Student" program and I will set up an appointment with them. My UG GPA was 3.3 (Chemistry and Biology), Masters was 3.5 (Chemistry) and 3.6 for PhD as to date. I have never taken MCAT nor shadowed a physician before and I will work on both.

There is a NIH grant proposal deadline coming up in February and my PI wants me to help him to write it :yeahright:.
 
With a 3.3 UG GPA, you're a little below average for MD matriculants, but not prohibitively so. I'd suggest forgoing the post bac unless you're still missing some of the prereqs, or unless you have any UG grades less than a B and you plan to apply DO. (You can replace your low grades with retakes for the DO app, which often allows people to raise their UG GPA significantly with just a few classes.) Don't know what the day in the life of the med student thing is, but what you really need to spend some time seeing is a day in the life of a physician, because you aren't going to be a med student for a career. Won't hurt anything to hang out with the med students too, but you should still shadow physicians and/or do clinical volunteering.

As for the rest, get the grant done first. (You need a good letter from your PI, so keep him happy!) Fortuitously, February is the perfect time to start your MCAT prep for a May or June test date. :)
 
You're absolutely correct! I'm open to DO schools as well, and I have already completed over >200 hrs though, so I'm not sure how much I can improve it with the classes from a postbacc program. 75% of the people graduated from the postbacc program at the med school next to where I live got accepted to professional schools afterward! I thought that was pretty darn good.

I'm interested in Family Medicine and Emergency Medicine, so I think DO schools could be a good fit for me.
 
I am a fellow chemistry phd to med student transplant. A few things I learned along the way is that MCAT is king. Like Q said, being in grad school doesn't give you an advantage for doing well on this exam, and for me I was mid-thesis writing while I took the mcat. Needless to say my chemistry/bio/written were near perfect, but my verbal suffered.

Also, for MD schools, it felt like the PhD was just a mild extracurricular (even with a lot of publications, including nature). My work was nothing more than a talking point, not a selling point, and you still need the grades/mcat to get in the door. That said, at DO schools, the PhD was a huge selling point and highly looked upon.

Having been in your shoes, I wish I would have done more shadowing. It turns out I love where I am but my initial thoughts of doing EM have greatly changed, and I have just added a lot more years of training if I continue on the path that I am envisioning. I think with your gpa and if you get around a 30 mcat, you will get in somewhere. And actually I am not sure I would advise doing a post-bac. Having interacted with a lot of post bac students, it seems like they incurred a little more debt and really didn't get much out of it other than getting that acceptance into a school. Like you said, you have 200+ hours and probably would only raise your gpa a little, at the expense of what 15-20k in post bac tuition? If anything stay in your phd program as long as you can, and maybe get more experience with medicine. I was able to stay on as a "post doc," which gave me time to make sure all my affairs were in order.
 
Thanks for your feedback Petypet. However, I will have to disagree with you regarding publications in very top peer-reviewed journals such as Nature/Science/PNAS. Having a first-author or second-author paper in Science/Nature/PNAS is almost like a golden ticket to professorship at a research-based university, or land you a postdoc position at MIT/Harvard/Berkeley/Stanford etc.

For any medical schools that consider such accomplish as a mild extracurricular activity is clearly not on the right track and I would take my business somewhere else.

I will definitely try to shadow both MD and DO physicians. There aren't that many DOs near where I live though so it could potentially be problematic.
 
A few years ago I would have agreed with you. I have a first author nature chemical biology paper from a fairly solid university program, about 15 co-author/book chapters, and its really no guarantee on a post doc position or job anywhere. Universities are now pumping out way too many PhDs which is completely saturating the market, especially with pharma/industry downsizing. Before I matriculated, most PhD biochemists/microbiologists would apply for 30-40 industry positions just to get a few interviews. I remember interviewing for a post doc and at Berkeley and the prof had a 3 year wait list. And on top of that, with the new NIH sequestration, NIH funding, postdocs, and grants are going to go way down. Then, you need to spend 3-6 years in an academic postdoc for a professorship at anything other than a liberal arts school. Call me cynical or just a crappy phd, but that was part of my motivation for attending medical school, because the job market was going to take me and my family all over the country.

Negative nancy aside, I completely agree the PhD is a huge accomplishment! The truth of the matter is most of the adcoms don't appreciate such hard work. I thought my PhD would carry me further than it did, and needless to say I didn't get into as many programs as I thought "I should have". I think it will help me with my future career, for sure, but for getting in, its just an extracurricular. Med school is a sellers market, and they would rather have a student with a 3.8 gpa, 35 mcat, than a 3.6 gpa 31 mcat and a PhD. It is not a matter of taking your business elsewhere, without the stats, the schools won't even offer you interviews.
 
Negative nancy aside, I completely agree the PhD is a huge accomplishment! The truth of the matter is most of the adcoms don't appreciate such hard work. I thought my PhD would carry me further than it did, and needless to say I didn't get into as many programs as I thought "I should have". I think it will help me with my future career, for sure, but for getting in, its just an extracurricular. Med school is a sellers market, and they would rather have a student with a 3.8 gpa, 35 mcat, than a 3.6 gpa 31 mcat and a PhD. It is not a matter of taking your business elsewhere, without the stats, the schools won't even offer you interviews.
Correct.

OP, most of the PhDs who read your app will not be chemists and will not know what the top ACS journals are. Most of the MDs who read your app and interview you will have no idea what is involved with getting a PhD at all. And for some of them, there will even be a bias against you for having a PhD. For example, I had people questioning whether I'd be able to adapt from teaching premeds one semester to sitting in the classroom with them the next. Don't get cocky. You aren't going to burn up the premed world with your GPA, and as Pety said, a stellar MCAT will impress way more adcoms than a stellar journal article will.
 
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Which sucks! Good lord, the amount of science, labor, writing, rewriting, defending 1 nature paper is harder than anything I have had to do in 2 years of medical school. Backward system is backwards.
 
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"For any medical schools that consider such accomplish as a mild extracurricular activity is clearly not on the right track and I would take my business somewhere else."
This mindset will be a problem. Medical school admission is a privilege in a seller's market, not a mandate.

As another PhD that went to medical school: it's an interesting EC. We're not special. The attributes needed to do well in med school are so vastly different front graduate school.
 
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A few years ago I would have agreed with you. I have a first author nature chemical biology paper from a fairly solid university program, about 15 co-author/book chapters, and its really no guarantee on a post doc position or job anywhere. Universities are now pumping out way too many PhDs which is completely saturating the market, especially with pharma/industry downsizing. Before I matriculated, most PhD biochemists/microbiologists would apply for 30-40 industry positions just to get a few interviews. I remember interviewing for a post doc and at Berkeley and the prof had a 3 year wait list. And on top of that, with the new NIH sequestration, NIH funding, postdocs, and grants are going to go way down. Then, you need to spend 3-6 years in an academic postdoc for a professorship at anything other than a liberal arts school. Call me cynical or just a crappy phd, but that was part of my motivation for attending medical school, because the job market was going to take me and my family all over the country.

That's completely understandable. I know two of my colleagues stayed in my program for an additional year as a postdoc just to buy more time and apply for more jobs. It's not just the biological side of chemistry though; physical/polymer/nanotech/instrument development fields are also suffering. I think it's amazing that you were able to get a first author paper in Nature Chem Bio!

When you were applying to MD/DO schools, did you apply a wide range of programs or just primarily very top programs?
 
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Unfortunately, I was more geographically limited than most students so I only applied to about 3 DO programs and 4 or 5 MD programs. The schools were chosen more out of location than top/bottom programs. Kind of the like the PhD, it matters where you go, but doing well anywhere will open plenty of doors. Anyhow, I got in to all but 2 MD programs and those were ones that I was hampered my lack of MCAT. Realistically, for anything "top" I would need to have retaken the MCAT and probably gotten a 34-35ish. I chose a DO program that would keep me closer to my family for the first few years and then in the city of my choosing for 3rd/4th, and further giving me a realistic shot at residency there too. Not to mention it was also the cheapest school.
 
Unfortunately, I was more geographically limited than most students so I only applied to about 3 DO programs and 4 or 5 MD programs. The schools were chosen more out of location than top/bottom programs. Kind of the like the PhD, it matters where you go, but doing well anywhere will open plenty of doors. Anyhow, I got in to all but 2 MD programs and those were ones that I was hampered my lack of MCAT. Realistically, for anything "top" I would need to have retaken the MCAT and probably gotten a 34-35ish. I chose a DO program that would keep me closer to my family for the first few years and then in the city of my choosing for 3rd/4th, and further giving me a realistic shot at residency there too. Not to mention it was also the cheapest school.

That's really good. I didn't think a school's reputation would affect your chance for landing a residency of your choice. I thought it was just about your score and interview and I have always thought that DO programs are more expensive than MD programs.

My family members doesn't want me to go to med school :(.
 
For any medical schools that consider such accomplish as a mild extracurricular activity is clearly not on the right track and I would take my business somewhere else.
As was already pointed out earlier in this thread, this is not the right attitude. First of all, given the current research funding situation, there are not as few PhDs applying to medical schools as you may think - just do a search on SDN to see how many other PhD-to-MD threads have been here and how many people participated. Someone who has a PhD is not really that special as far as medical school admissions process is concerned. By reading these threads compare individual successes - or lack thereof - of PhDs applying to medical schools and realize that they're quite variable and, in the end, depend on factors *other* than PhD. A PhD won't compensate for any weaknesses in your application, be that GPA, MCAT or the paucity of clinical exposure. Moreover, when you get into medical school you won't be the smartest person in your class. And on the wards, you'll be the lowest of the low, just like any other medical student. Prepare to be very humble as you embark on the medical school application and medical training journey.
My family members doesn't want me to go to med school :(.
*Do* seek some shadowing or, better yet (in my opinion) hospital volunteering. (By doing something like ER volunteering you will kill 2 birds with one stone: get clinical exposure *and* volunteer experience. If you're proactive and nice with the stuff, you'll be able to effectively shadow ER docs, too.) And, as was already mentioned, do this not as much to check a box of medical school requirements as to see if medicine is the right career for you. Do this before you even think of fulfilling any other premed requirements.
 
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I know this post is old, but I know many students will now and then run into this post in order to get some insight and mainly to read something that will provide them with hope. Therefore, I decided to give you the facts and not opinions. First of all, it is NOT true that a PhD will not out weight an average ug gpa. That is a LIE. A PhD from any good school will always put you on a better spot. I am in the PhD and med program now and I can tell you that a PhD is not "a nice extracurricular activity". I really resent that and find that very stupid, no offense to those who said that. Some, also thing that a post bac will help more, are you kidding me? For once, almost all the classes that you take as a graduate student in most institutions are with undergrad students! Meaning that YOU ARE TAKING THE SAME CLASS and by the way paying the same tuition as a grad student. Yes you take the same classes with them and it is harder for grad students, because you have to also do some extra work such as research and/or presentations. So NO, IS NOT TRUE, a grad degree will ALWAYS boost your admission's file. I find it so offensive that most of these people think that a PhD in a science is not relevant to medical schools. When I asked the admission staff from SEVERAL medical schools, the most common reaction was a laugh or a smile. Some admission directors even told me that when a student applies with a solid master, they don't even look at your ug grades much, of course as long as you have a good MCAT, especially when the grades are 4 or more years old. As far as a PhD, what degree do you think that the professors that teach some or most classes in medical school have? A PhD. Tell them that a PhD is a nice extracurricular activity. LOL. Remember that what they like it when an undergrad student has publications and research and what do you think a master student and a PhD student has? c'mon? Publications, teaching experience, research hours, etc. Is not true that a PhD will not put you in a better spot when applying to med school NOT TRUE. It will boost your probabilities to get in. A medical school will rather get an applicant who has three or more publications, a 3.6 grad GPA with a PhD and an MCAT of 505, than a student with an 510 MCAT and an undergrad gap of 3.8 but no solid publications. There is an abysmal difference between a bs and PhD remember that. Here is my recommendation to all of you who want some input in regards to this matter. TALK to the admissions director(s) of the school(s) that you are interested to apply. Do not be scare. Talk to them. Here you will find some good opinions but after all, that is all they are, opinions and unfortunately, from other students who are also trying to get into medical school and most of them who have none or very little experience in this. If you truly want to be a doctor, there are many things that you can do to make yourself a desirable candidate regardless of previous ify performances and a graduate degree is always a good alternative.
 
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Don't be so easily offended, and don't be so quick to go around calling views that are different than yours lies. If some of the people who posted above were a bit hyperbolic in their downplaying the effect of a strong PhD performance, you're being equally hyperbolic with how you're up playing it as some kind of miraclous Hail Mary that can rescue an otherwise poor academic record. The truth is somewhere in the middle: a PhD can be a huge boon to an already strong applicant by making them stand out in a sea of otherwise equally good applicants who don't have PhDs. But having a PhD will not get you into medical school if the rest of your app isn't competitive. The fact still remains that the purpose of graduate school training programs is to prepare people for research careers, not to prepare people for medical school.
 
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Don't be so easily offended, and don't be so quick to go around calling views that are different than yours lies. If some of the people who posted above were a bit hyperbolic in their downplaying the effect of a strong PhD performance, you're being equally hyperbolic with how you're up playing it as some kind of miraclous Hail Mary that can rescue an otherwise poor academic record. The truth is somewhere in the middle: a PhD can be a huge boon to an already strong applicant by making them stand out in a sea of otherwise equally good applicants who don't have PhDs. But having a PhD will not get you into medical school if the rest of your app isn't competitive. The fact still remains that the purpose of graduate school training programs is to prepare people for research careers, not to prepare people for medical school.

I assure you that at no moment I was offended. I don't take this comments personal either. However, it is wrong for any of us make statements like that without any actual valid information or resources. These are just opinions. It is wrong, because there are many students that seek either some hope or some information that can serve them as a guide and instead, they find negativism and antagonism. A PhD is not the magic answer to get accepted to medical school, but if you have poor undergraduate grades that go back a while and then you obtain a PhD in science with a GPA>3.5, and of course an average MCAT, the chance to get admitted become significant. This is not my opinion - this is what I've heard from actual admission directors from allopathic and osteopathic schools. So to make things clear, yes a PhD WILL make you a stronger candidate. You cannot compare ever a post bac with a PhD or a undergrad gpa of 3.7 applicant against an applicant with a PhD with a similar GPA, assuming both have similar or equal MCAT scores. A PhD does prepare you to be a researcher, but the requirements that a PhD has a beyond that. For example, teaching, lab rotations, grant-proposals writing, among other duties. Even some IVY league medical schools, such as Columbia are starting now programs to bring PhD's into the medical field - with a fast track 3 year medical school. The career of medicine is changing and the research component is becoming one of the most desirable attributes in a candidate and no other degree beats a PhD when it comes to that. Other than me, I met a person who also had a PhD and got into medical school just last year. She did her research on how changes in hormone in women can lead to some type of infections. She later decided that she wanted to have a more hands on research at the clinical level and she is now an MS1. So, yes, a PhD shouldn't be a solution to poor grades, but if anyone truly wants to e a Doctor, the more you grow academically, the better candidate you will be. Remember, what you said in the comment above is your opinion. That is all. I suggest anyone who has questions to actually ask someone in the admission's office of a medical school. Students are scared to approach the admission's staff, but some of these people, truly want to help students and they will answer the PhD question better than any of us.
 
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but if you have poor undergraduate grades that go back a while and then you obtain a PhD in science with a GPA>3.5, and of course an average MCAT, the chance to get admitted become significant.

This isn't even remotely true for reasons specified previously.
 
I assure you that at no moment I was offended. I don't take this comments personal either. However, it is wrong for any of us make statements like that without any actual valid information or resources. These are just opinions. It is wrong, because there are many students that seek either some hope or some information that can serve them as a guide and instead, they find negativism and antagonism. A PhD is not the magic answer to get accepted to medical school, but if you have poor undergraduate grades that go back a while and then you obtain a PhD in science with a GPA>3.5, and of course an average MCAT, the chance to get admitted become significant. This is not my opinion - this is what I've heard from actual admission directors from allopathic and osteopathic schools. So to make things clear, yes a PhD WILL make you a stronger candidate. You cannot compare ever a post bac with a PhD or a undergrad gpa of 3.7 applicant against an applicant with a PhD with a similar GPA, assuming both have similar or equal MCAT scores. A PhD does prepare you to be a researcher, but the requirements that a PhD has a beyond that. For example, teaching, lab rotations, grant-proposals writing, among other duties. Even some IVY league medical schools, such as Columbia are starting now programs to bring PhD's into the medical field - with a fast track 3 year medical school. The career of medicine is changing and the research component is becoming one of the most desirable attributes in a candidate and no other degree beats a PhD when it comes to that. Other than me, I met a person who also had a PhD and got into medical school just last year. She did her research on how changes in hormone in women can lead to some type of infections. She later decided that she wanted to have a more hands on research at the clinical level and she is now an MS1. So, yes, a PhD shouldn't be a solution to poor grades, but if anyone truly wants to e a Doctor, the more you grow academically, the better candidate you will be. Remember, what you said in the comment above is your opinion. That is all. I suggest anyone who has questions to actually ask someone in the admission's office of a medical school. Students are scared to approach the admission's staff, but some of these people, truly want to help students and they will answer the PhD question better than any of us.


Actually, some of the people you're debating this with have served on medical school admissions committees, including at institutions that value research quite a bit.

Others are posting information based on what adcom members have told them, making their statements no less credible or valid than what you're saying adcoms have told you.
 
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I assure you that at no moment I was offended. I don't take this comments personal either. However, it is wrong for any of us make statements like that without any actual valid information or resources. These are just opinions. It is wrong, because there are many students that seek either some hope or some information that can serve them as a guide and instead, they find negativism and antagonism. A PhD is not the magic answer to get accepted to medical school, but if you have poor undergraduate grades that go back a while and then you obtain a PhD in science with a GPA>3.5, and of course an average MCAT, the chance to get admitted become significant. This is not my opinion - this is what I've heard from actual admission directors from allopathic and osteopathic schools. So to make things clear, yes a PhD WILL make you a stronger candidate. You cannot compare ever a post bac with a PhD or a undergrad gpa of 3.7 applicant against an applicant with a PhD with a similar GPA, assuming both have similar or equal MCAT scores. A PhD does prepare you to be a researcher, but the requirements that a PhD has a beyond that. For example, teaching, lab rotations, grant-proposals writing, among other duties. Even some IVY league medical schools, such as Columbia are starting now programs to bring PhD's into the medical field - with a fast track 3 year medical school. The career of medicine is changing and the research component is becoming one of the most desirable attributes in a candidate and no other degree beats a PhD when it comes to that. Other than me, I met a person who also had a PhD and got into medical school just last year. She did her research on how changes in hormone in women can lead to some type of infections. She later decided that she wanted to have a more hands on research at the clinical level and she is now an MS1. So, yes, a PhD shouldn't be a solution to poor grades, but if anyone truly wants to e a Doctor, the more you grow academically, the better candidate you will be. Remember, what you said in the comment above is your opinion. That is all. I suggest anyone who has questions to actually ask someone in the admission's office of a medical school. Students are scared to approach the admission's staff, but some of these people, truly want to help students and they will answer the PhD question better than any of us.

In your opinion, what can a Phd student do during their grad school that can best prepare them for later med school application? Also, could you talk more about the fast track medical school? Do they have preference for PhD students?
 
In your opinion, what can a Phd student do during their grad school that can best prepare them for later med school application? Also, could you talk more about the fast track medical school? Do they have preference for PhD students?
First of all keep in mind that a PhD is not supposed to be used, by any means, an alternative to doing some post bac work, retaking the MCAT, or doing a biomedical masters program. A PhD however is, regardless of what some say, becoming very desirable by many medical schools. It is also a huge advantage when applying for residency. For example, go online and do some research - you will have to sometimes research each school individually - and you will find the ratio of students that have applied in the last 2 to 3 years with a PhD and the number (with PhD) that have been admitted and it is SIGNIFICANTLY higher, than those of the average applicant. Now in regards to what a PhD can do during grad school to prepare you later for medical - the average PhD in Biology requires around 70 hours. The average medical school requires at least 90 undergraduate hours in order to apply. You cannot compare 90 undergrad hours which include classes such as freshman or sophomore electives with 5000 or 6000 level science classes. So just imagine having about 70 graduate science hours. Of course, this is assuming you have a great GPA during grad school. Also, a PhD helps you to mature academically as well as professionally. In no way will an undergrad student will ever do as much as a PhD student does. I am sorry to say this - I don't intend to offense anyone, but the the curriculum of a PhD science student is much more rigorous than those of a undergrad science student. Now in regards to the fast track, only Columbia is doing it right now and Tulane. There are rumors that other schools soon will be doing the same thing, which proves my point how well regraded a PhD is. In regards to if they have preference for PhD students, I cannot tell you that, but again, the ratio of applicants with a science PhD that get in is much higher and it makes sense.
 
Actually, some of the people you're debating this with have served on medical school admissions committees, including at institutions that value research quite a bit.

Others are posting information based on what adcom members have told them, making their statements no less credible or valid than what you're saying adcoms have told you.
Again, as I already mentioned, I can only speak form what I have heard from some medical schools that I was interested and applied to as well as from what I got from medical school professors, which also happened to be in the admissions committee. I am not an expert and I am not going to pretend to be one, but I will advice ANYONE to be careful when getting information from anyone, especially from other applicants who lets face it, they are in the same boat (applying to medical school) too. This sites are an excellent way to obtain opinions from other applicants, but one can also be misled. believe it or not, there are many applicants who used this forums to vent or discourage other applicants.
 
This isn't even remotely true for reasons specified previously.
I am sorry that you fell that way. Also, I sense a tone of anger in your reply. Look, you are entitle to have your opinion, but at the end of the day, it is your opinion. As I told another person in this post, do you really think that, for example in my case, over 72 hours of graduate science classes, several publications, 3 years of teaching experience, 4 years of research in a related medical field, and 2 years of extracurricular activities will match those of 90 hours of undergrad? Of course assuming similar GPA's and MCAT score. On top of that imagine being a non traditional student. Look, any admission committee will truly admire a student who had a decent undergrad GPA, but later does something like that. I am not the only example of this. As I mentioned in a previous post, I met another med student who has a PhD and had also an outstanding academic background but didn't do as well as an undergrad.
 
Actually, some of the people you're debating this with have served on medical school admissions committees, including at institutions that value research quite a bit.

Others are posting information based on what adcom members have told them, making their statements no less credible or valid than what you're saying adcoms have told you.
Also, if that is the case that some of these people have actually been part of an admission committee, you or anyone who is interesting in applying to medical school might want to find out which schools these people represent, because those might be the schools that you might want to stay away from. Regardless of who you are or what you do, no professional in that area should ever take a position like that.
 
Again, as I already mentioned, I can only speak form what I have heard from some medical schools that I was interested and applied to as well as from what I got from medical school professors, which also happened to be in the admissions committee. I am not an expert and I am not going to pretend to be one, but I will advice ANYONE to be careful when getting information from anyone, especially from other applicants who lets face it, they are in the same boat (applying to medical school) too. This sites are an excellent way to obtain opinions from other applicants, but one can also be misled. believe it or not, there are many applicants who used this forums to vent or discourage other applicants.
Also, if that is the case that some of these people have actually been part of an admission committee, you or anyone who is interesting in applying to medical school might want to find out which schools these people represent, because those might be the schools that you might want to stay away from. Regardless of who you are or what you do, no professional in that area should ever take a position like that.
She's referring to me, not to the premed posters. I am an MD/PhD who earned a PhD first, then went to medical school on full scholarship at one of the fancy name-brand, research-intensive schools that sometimes get salivated over on this site. I served on the med school's adcom for four years. Afterward, I applied for/completed residency, and I am therefore very familiar with going through the residency app process as an MD/PhD applicant. I have now been on the faculty at a medical school for the past two years, during which time I have been involved with interviewing some of our residency candidates.

While it is true that my opinions are indeed merely one person's opinions, WH's point is that not everyone posting here is a naive premed who doesn't have any insight into how the process works. And particularly if YOU are a premed or preclinical student who lacks any adcom experience (it's unclear from your prior posts what your exact training status is), it would behoove you to not go around calling other people's opinions "lies" when you are almost certainly no better informed or experienced yourself than are most of the people whom you are criticizing.

Regarding the substance of the discussion here, I stand by what I said before, that while you are correct that having a PhD is not meaningless (particularly to a research-oriented school like the one I attended), it also is not a silver bullet that will negate a prior poor academic record. If you want to be successful as a PhD-to-MD applicant, then you need to have good UG stats/MCAT *and* a good PhD performance. Med schools don't want either-or; they want both. One of the reasons why my med school app was so successful is because I scored a 43 on the MCAT. And while I didn't have grades from college, I had excellent narrative evals, including my organic prof saying I was the best student in the class, and my gen chem prof saying I was the best student he'd ever taught. So my PhD was icing on the cake; it was not the main ingredient forming the cake itself. And I would argue that this is the way that *all* PhD-to-MD hopefuls should regard their PhDs: as a bonus to an already strong app, not as a Hail Mary attempt to salvage an app that is otherwise subpar.

FWIW, not that this info is very applicable to most of the people on this forum at the moment, but having a PhD is *not* particularly helpful for residency apps, never mind "a huge advantage." Residency PDs are hiring applicants for a clinical position, not as researchers. So what they care most about is your third year clerkship and fourth year sub-internship performance. They also care about the likelihood of you passing your in-service exams (yearly mock specialty boards taken by residents) and the actual boards. So they additionally put a lot of weight on your USMLE scores (particularly Step 1). Some also strongly consider whether you made AOA (med student honor society only open to the top 10% of the class). Finally, LORs are extremely important; each medical specialty is a relatively small world where most of the academic faculty know each other (or at least know of each other). Who you have going to bat for you therefore matters a great deal more at the residency app level than it does at the med school app level.

Many students do research during med school, and just as for premeds, research experience can be a bonus to an already good residency app. Significant research experience is also necessary for those who are applying to physician scientist track residency programs (special residencies called PSTPs meant to groom physician scientists). But even there, what matters more is the applicant's record of research output (pubs, presentations, grants, etc), not whether they have a PhD versus an MS versus no graduate degree at all. A PhD is neither necessary nor sufficient to have a successful career as a physician scientist; there are plenty of successful MD/MS and MD-only physician scientists.
 
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She's referring to me, not to the premed posters. I am an MD/PhD who earned a PhD first, then went to medical school on full scholarship at one of the fancy name-brand, research-intensive schools that sometimes get salivated over on this site. I served on the med school's adcom for four years. Afterward, I applied for/completed residency, and I am therefore very familiar with going through the residency app process as an MD/PhD applicant. I have now been on the faculty at a medical school for the past two years, during which time I have been involved with interviewing some of our residency candidates.

While it is true that my opinions are indeed merely one person's opinions, WH's point is that not everyone posting here is a naive premed who doesn't have any insight into how the process works. And particularly if YOU are a premed or preclinical student who lacks any adcom experience (it's unclear from your prior posts what your exact training status is), it would behoove you to not go around calling other people's opinions "lies" when you are almost certainly no better informed or experienced yourself than are most of the people whom you are criticizing.

Regarding the substance of the discussion here, I stand by what I said before, that while you are correct that having a PhD is not meaningless (particularly to a research-oriented school like the one I attended), it also is not a silver bullet that will negate a prior poor academic record. If you want to be successful as a PhD-to-MD applicant, then you need to have good UG stats/MCAT *and* a good PhD performance. Med schools don't want either-or; they want both. One of the reasons why my med school app was so successful is because I scored a 43 on the MCAT. And while I didn't have grades from college, I had excellent narrative evals, including my organic prof saying I was the best student in the class, and my gen chem prof saying I was the best student he'd ever taught. So my PhD was icing on the cake; it was not the main ingredient forming the cake itself. And I would argue that this is the way that *all* PhD-to-MD hopefuls should regard their PhDs: as a bonus to an already strong app, not as a Hail Mary attempt to salvage an app that is otherwise subpar.

FWIW, not that this info is very applicable to most of the people on this forum at the moment, but having a PhD is *not* particularly helpful for residency apps, never mind "a huge advantage." Residency PDs are hiring applicants for a clinical position, not as researchers. So what they care most about is your third year clerkship and fourth year sub-internship performance. They also care about the likelihood of you passing your in-service exams (yearly mock specialty boards taken by residents) and the actual boards. So they additionally put a lot of weight on your USMLE scores (particularly Step 1). Some also strongly consider whether you made AOA (med student honor society only open to the top 10% of the class). Finally, LORs are extremely important; each medical specialty is a relatively small world where most of the academic faculty know each other (or at least know of each other). Who you have going to bat for you therefore matters a great deal more at the residency app level than it does at the med school app level.

Many students do research during med school, and just as for premeds, research experience can be a bonus to an already good residency app. Significant research experience is also necessary for those who are applying to physician scientist track residency programs (special residencies called PSTPs meant to groom physician scientists). But even there, what matters more is the applicant's record of research output (pubs, presentations, grants, etc), not whether they have a PhD versus an MS versus no graduate degree at all. A PhD is neither necessary nor sufficient to have a successful career as a physician scientist; there are plenty of successful MD/MS and MD-only physician scientists.

Wow! Look, first of all I did not criticized nor I say that anyone was lying. I recommend you to read my posts again. At no moment I was disrespectful. However, if you felt that way or anyone else, then that is another non related issue and your problem. Now, you might have been involved in the interviewing process - I am sorry to say this, but with all the respect that you deserve, that is not much. I might not be a Physician yet, but I assure you that in my journey, I did an extensive research. I met a lot of people like you. But I also met other great people. While researching about my options, some of the information that I received was from admission's committee members who have been doing this for a while and not just some professionals who are or have been involved in the process. I have met people with a PhDs and an MDs as well as people with and DOs and PhDs and I can tell you that there is huge difference between them and those who only posses an MD or a DO and that is not an attack to only those who have DOs or MDs - I feel the need to say that because apparently you guys here have a way with how I say some things. The majority of these MD/PhDs and DO/PhDs are involved in so many great things. And let me ask you this, as a medical professional and a trained scientist, do you think what you are stating is correct? You are trying to flash me with your current credentials and using them to make you opinion more valid. They are not, especially from people that are more qualified than you. Furthermore, you are misleading other students, because not everyone is in your same situation or on mine. You don't speak for all medical schools in this nation, allopathic and osteopathic, Do YOU?. This is NOT about you. I am sorry and I feel bad for you, because based on your choice of words, your tone, and you approach to my comments, which was intended to help students, you sound like you are not very happy. I really don't care who you say you are and other students should take the same approach. The best way to get actual valid information is by asking those in the admission offices and those in the admissions' committees. This threads are meant to gather opinions, recommendations, and some extra information, but that is it. In regards to the UG grades, you are incorrect. Yes UG GPAs matter, but there are other special situations and exceptions to all rules. I am a proof of that. I had a very low UG GPA and not because I was not smarter than other undergrads. I had an under 3.0 UG GPA, however, my lowest grades were over 7 years old. During this time I didn't even dream of being a physician. I worked two full time jobs and attended undergrad school during the weekends and evenings. Nevertheless, after ug school, I finished my first masters with a 4.0, my second one, with a 3.9, my MBA with a 3.7, and my PhD with a 3.9. I also did a post bac after my first master, because I was told that graduate work didn't mean much (I wish I had not listened to those people) when applying to medical school and it was a joke because I took and retook many classes and through those semesters I always had a 4.0. Also, believe me it was NOTHING like graduate school - it was very easy. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but you do not represent all the medical schools in this nation. Thank God not all admission professionals think like you. Please refrain from replying the same argument - this threads are supposed to be positive, informative, and provide resources - not a place to argue back and forward. That doesn't say any good about you. I respect your OPINION and please respect MINE. Thank you.
 
I am sorry that you fell that way. Also, I sense a tone of anger in your reply. ...... Look, any admission committee will truly admire a student who had a decent undergrad GPA, but later does something like that. I am not the only example of this.

Angry? Really about what, having been a successful applicant to medical school? Try again.

The bottom line here is that your comments express a naivete' about how the "real" world of medical school admissions works that at best, are unfortunate and worse laughable given that you seem to blithely brush off comments that aren't in complete agreement with yours. Adcoms don't "truly admire" or care how great you think you are, as med schools replete with highly successful, smart people. Put another way, you ain't that special in the med school admissions game.

PS-Quit with the psychological evals (i.e everybody's angry), it makes you look petty on top of naive.

PSS- Your last comment? You DEFINITELY sound angry! ;)
 
With a 3.3 UG GPA, you're a little below average for MD matriculants, but not prohibitively so. I'd suggest forgoing the post bac unless you're still missing some of the prereqs, or unless you have any UG grades less than a B and you plan to apply DO. (You can replace your low grades with retakes for the DO app, which often allows people to raise their UG GPA significantly with just a few classes.) Don't know what the day in the life of the med student thing is, but what you really need to spend some time seeing is a day in the life of a physician, because you aren't going to be a med student for a career. Won't hurt anything to hang out with the med students too, but you should still shadow physicians and/or do clinical volunteering.

As for the rest, get the grant done first. (You need a good letter from your PI, so keep him happy!) Fortuitously, February is the perfect time to start your MCAT prep for a May or June test date. :)
So just wondering when UG GPA is mentioned here-is it the UG GPA that appears on your undergraduate transcript or the AMCAS calculated one?
 
So just wondering when UG GPA is mentioned here-is it the UG GPA that appears on your undergraduate transcript or the AMCAS calculated one?
AMCAS's calculation. What the med school adcoms see is what AMCAS calculates, not what your college(s) calculate.
 
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