MD after PhD?

[cbd]

I'm sorry if I'm repeating this topic- I'm a new user and haven't read everything in the forum yet. I am currently "finishing" - hopefully by July my degree in Biochemistry. All of secondaries are in and I am interviewing and WAITING.

I was wondering if anyone else out there is in my position? I am still interested in research, but I hope to pursue a career in academic medicine- integrating my interests.

I've heard about PhDs that manage to find part-time post-doc positions while in medical school and even some who manage to get school paid for!!! Anyone out doing this or know about it?

I'd appreciate any advice and feedback!

Thanks

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[Quix]

There are a couple of us running around here. I defended my dissertation (medical ethics) in January and picked up the Ph.D. in May, and I'm post-MCAT, pre-interview now. I am currently working with a research group at UPMC, and will continue to be involved with them if I get in to Pitt.

 

[CD4helpCD8]

Welcome aboard, mate. Here is the link to a recent thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324555. It is a little bit surprising that you are interviewing already.....I know some schools said you have to show them that you are *definitely* in your last year of graduate school to be eligible for applying. I defended my thesis (immunology) in August and officially got my PhD title just two weeks ago, and I am still sending out (and waiting as well) my secondaries (August MCATer). Among the PhD-to-MD folks here, I feel I am the one with the least chance to get in, mainly due to the lack of undergraduate GPA (yeah, I was an international student), lackbuster graduate GPA, and not-so-great MCAT. Like you, since I am interested in translational/clinical research and hopefully I can continue my research (vaccine development) while in med school, I also emphasized research in my personal statement and picked those research-oriented schools, in hope that they will be a little bit more forgiving on my stats (maybe just a wishful thinking).

There are some grants/scholarships for medical students participating in research (not specifically for those with PhD already). Some schools offered a five-year program so that you can spend one whole year to do research and you may get a master degree as well, but that's probably not so attractive to you, since you have a PhD already.

Hang in there, and remember to post your progress/good news here!

CD4helpCD8

 

[Scottish Chap]

Welcome aboard, mate. Here is the link to a recent thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324555. It is a little bit surprising that you are interviewing already.....I know some schools said you have to show them that you are *definitely* in your last year of graduate school to be eligible for applying. I defended my thesis (immunology) in August and officially got my PhD title just two weeks ago, and I am still sending out (and waiting as well) my secondaries (August MCATer). Among the PhD-to-MD folks here, I feel I am the one with the least chance to get in, mainly due to the lack of undergraduate GPA (yeah, I was an international student), lackbuster graduate GPA, and not-so-great MCAT. Like you, since I am interested in translational/clinical research and hopefully I can continue my research (vaccine development) while in med school, I also emphasized research in my personal statement and picked those research-oriented schools, in hope that they will be a little bit more forgiving on my stats (maybe just a wishful thinking).

There are some grants/scholarships for medical students participating in research (not specifically for those with PhD already). Some schools offered a five-year program so that you can spend one whole year to do research and you may get a master degree as well, but that's probably not so attractive to you, since you have a PhD already.

Hang in there, and remember to post your progress/good news here!

CD4helpCD8

Your Ph.D. is from an amazing institution and your MCAT score is great. You'll get in - you'll see.

 

[cbd]

Thanks for your reply and the link.... That thread isn't very encouraging! It's interesting- the MDs that I volunteer with view the PhD as a great asset and my experience at a recent interview was very good. My interviewer was EXCITED about my grad. work and thought I was a strong candidate. While MCAT and UG GPA are very important- I think work beyond undergraduate says a lot!! Remember we are non-traditional students and will be viewed that way. As long as you get through the screening process you have a chance I hate to think that undergraduate grades from 8 years ago are going to decide my fate now!

Best wishes!!


PS: I NEED to defend in July at the latest- no more funding!!! MCOW and Loyola make statements about this issue, but none of the other schools have yet.

 

[RxnMan]

ABout fellowships in med school - I've heard of it, but I've never seen it happen. I would expect that between a PI and med school, either your heart or brain, and possibly both, would explode. It's cool you want to keep researching and get some Benjamins in school, but there's just not enough time.

You can do stuff on a less-than-part-time basis (~5 hrs/week or less) during the school year, but that's about the limit.

 

[relentless11]

ABout fellowships in med school - I've heard of it, but I've never seen it happen. I would expect that between a PI and med school, either your heart or brain, and possibly both, would explode. It's cool you want to keep researching and get some Benjamins in school, but there's just not enough time.

You can do stuff on a less-than-part-time basis (~5 hrs/week or less) during the school year, but that's about the limit.

Maybe something during the 4th year, but yea I agree, our first years go from 9-5pm everyday for classes. So would be good to devote free time to sanity and studying.

 

[MtnGntx]

Hey Gang,

I'm in the same boat! I am finishing up my PhD (Human Medical Genetics at University of Colorado Health Sciences) and am in the process of submitting secondaries. I am planning on defending next summer but will hopefully be headed to Med school prior to this..... A lot of assumptions here, of course: I get interviews, I get accepted somewhere, etc. I havent encountered any notice of potential conflict (schools requiring confirmation of graduation date before acceptance) not on school websites, but have heard of such things anecdotally.

Not sure if the PhD hurts or helps my cause... I'm 38, 3.9 grad GPA, 3.8 undergrad Science GPA but 3.44 overall undergrad grade due to poor performance in other areas. Worked hard in grad school to acquire clinical exposure, published, and received a grant. 1st timer though with the August MCAT; 30 (10,10,10)....didnt hurt, but didnt help. If I don't get in, I plan on postponiong graduation, working for my grant for an additional year, strengthening weaknesses, and re-applying next cycle.

I would be happy to be accepted at CU where I would be in a unique position to continue with aspects of my PhD project on a limited basis. If there were more money in the project, I could probably even swing a small stipend for my efforts. While I've heard of one PI at my school who went back for an MD while maintaining his lab, I also heard that he wouldnt recommend this sort of workload to the feint of heart. I am not aware of any Post doc positions, but would bet that there may be some nebulous part-time PRA positions that might accomodate a Med student with a PhD.

And there are always scholarships to help lessen the financial load.... Anyone know what those require?

In the long run, I am not counting on my PhD to come into play until I begin lobbying for residency. In my field (Cardiology) I know that there are fast-track residency options that take into account prior research work. This should make me a more competitive candidate.... But only time will tell.

Kinda sucks not anticipating a decent paycheck for another... err... 8 years?!?!?!?!

 

[cbd]

Maybe something during the 4th year, but yea I agree, our first years go from 9-5pm everyday for classes. So would be good to devote free time to sanity and studying.

I'm with you on this- it would be really difficult to do much beyond class work-especially in the first year. I plan to be involved with research on a regular basis to keep up with new techniques and everything that I've learned in the past 5 years. I do know a number of students who spent the summer after their first year in the lab and were able to continue with it through their second year. I will continue in my current lab if I end up at UIC- where I am now...

I'm sure that these amazing post-doc/paid tuition scenarios that I hear about are arranged privately and may even involve agreements to work in the lab beyond medical school. Thought I could find out more here

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm sorry if I'm repeating this topic- I'm a new user and haven't read everything in the forum yet. I am currently "finishing" - hopefully by July my degree in Biochemistry. All of secondaries are in and I am interviewing and WAITING.

I was wondering if anyone else out there is in my position? I am still interested in research, but I hope to pursue a career in academic medicine- integrating my interests.

I've heard about PhDs that manage to find part-time post-doc positions while in medical school and even some who manage to get school paid for!!! Anyone out doing this or know about it?

I'd appreciate any advice and feedback!

Thanks

Hello,

MS1, PhD to MD here, also planning to go into academic medicine, and PhD in organic chem. There are several PhDs to MD that I know about on SDN who are in med school now. If you search for "PhD" in this forum, you'll probably find some other threads on the subject from previous years that will be helpful to you. You should also come check out the Physician Scientist forum.

 

[cbd]

Thanks- I did find some other threads

It's nice to have these forums- especially since I don't know anyone else going through this process!! I've watched a lot of people do it as an undergrad, but it's great to have an outlet!!

 

[CIA]

It is possible to get into med school while you are finishing your phd. Even if you are not a Rhodes Scholar operating an OB clinic in Darfur.

I am finishing my phd in microbiology (plan to defend this summer) at a Big Ten school. I took the MCAT twice, 25N and 33O. My undergrad GPA (chemistry) according to AMCAS is BCPM 3.14, AO 3.64, Total 3.40. Grad GPA is 3.65. I did a lot of volunteering during grad school at the university hospital, and I have some good service experiences from undergrad. I have one first-author paper and my own grant. I just got accepted to Iowa. They do blind interviews, so they had no idea I was a phd-candidate. I had to subtly incorporate my grad school experience into my interview responses. At another interview (my phd school) with an older family practice doc I wasn't asked about my research at all; he wanted to know about me and how I came to the decision to go into clinical medicine.

I think if your GPA and MCAT are close to average for a particular school you will get interviews, just like the undergrads. But don't expect adcomms to be hugely impressed with your phd work. Just be well prepared for your interview; you are older and more experienced in academics than most applicants and that should show.

And I think letters of recommendation may be more important to us because undergrad letters from committees are sort of sterile and generic, but for us they may be more influential. A letter from your thesis advisor saying you will be done when you need to be done is key.

Good luck.

P.S. To all those in the same boat over the last few years who have posted on this topic, thanks. Your candid advice and success stories helped me get this far.

 

[QofQuimica]

It is possible to get into med school while you are finishing your phd. Even if you are not a Rhodes Scholar operating an OB clinic in Darfur.

Congrats on your acceptance. Now you need to do whatever it takes to make sure you graduate on time....you almost certainly won't be allowed to matriculate without that PhD in hand. Good luck with your defense.

 

[powerbooki]

All Phd-to-MD people, all of you are my heros! To me, PhD is a very high thing (commitment, passion, talent...). I thought about it but did not have the courage (or interest) to do it. You people did it and more! I thought about doing MD/PhD, but you guessed it, I again did not have the courage to do the PhD part. Feeling a little old for that... I guess I will do the MD part and leave the PhD as a high and mythical thing to me. Sometimes, a little pity in life can be sort of beautiful. I have acceptances, so if I get to meet any of you next year, I won't say it, but you are all secretly my heros.

No wonder QofQuimica, that PhD in org chem surely goes well with a 43S

 

[QofQuimica]

All Phd-to-MD people, all of you are my heros! To me, PhD is a very high thing (commitment, passion, talent...). I thought about it but did not have the courage (or interest) to do it. You people did it and more! I thought about doing MD/PhD, but you guessed it, I again did not have the courage to do the PhD part. Feeling a little old for that... I guess I will do the MD part and leave the PhD as a high and mythical thing to me. Sometimes, a little pity in life can be sort of beautiful. I have acceptances, so if I get to meet any of you next year, I won't say it, but you are all secretly my heros.

No wonder QofQuimica, that PhD in org chem surely goes well with a 43S

You are smart to go for med school first, powerbooki. It's a lot easier to get into a PhD program as a med student than it is to get into an MD program as a grad student. So FWIW, if you do want to do a PhD, it isn't too late. Most med schools will let you take a leave to do your research.

 

[CD4helpCD8]

It's a lot easier to get into a PhD program as a med student than it is to get into an MD program as a grad student. So FWIW, if you do want to do a PhD, it isn't too late. Most med schools will let you take a leave to do your research.

120% agree!! Plus, most MD/PhD programs will offer tuition waiver AND stipend while you are doing your PhD part.

 

[MeowMix]

I'd just like to STRONGLY recommend that anyone considering this transition be sure to completely finish their PhD before starting med school. (I was lucky to have enough years between the two that I was completely done!)

There is nothing more miserable than entering the clinical grind of third year knowing that your post-defense PhD thesis revisions are still not done...from 2 years ago. I have watched one of my classmates in this position, and I am very sorry to be seeing those years of hard work get dropped into the ABD Wasteland of Perpetual Incompleteness.

Do not overestimate your ability to get other things done during MS1/MS2; set up your life as if school is all you'll be able to do. Then, if you have spare time, it will be a nice surprise. Med school can just turn out to be more of a challenge than you expected.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'd just like to STRONGLY recommend that anyone considering this transition be sure to completely finish their PhD before starting med school. (I was lucky to have enough years between the two that I was completely done!)

There is nothing more miserable than entering the clinical grind of third year knowing that your post-defense PhD thesis revisions are still not done...from 2 years ago. I have watched one of my classmates in this position, and I am very sorry to be seeing those years of hard work get dropped into the ABD Wasteland of Perpetual Incompleteness.

Do not overestimate your ability to get other things done during MS1/MS2; set up your life as if school is all you'll be able to do. Then, if you have spare time, it will be a nice surprise. Med school can just turn out to be more of a challenge than you expected.

Doing that wasn't even an option in my case. My school flat out told me that if I didn't graduate on time, I wouldn't be matriculating. Nothing like an ultimatum to make sure that dissertation makes it in on time.

 

[RxnMan]

Doing that wasn't even an option in my case. My school flat out told me that if I didn't graduate on time, I wouldn't be matriculating. Nothing like an ultimatum to make sure that dissertation makes it in on time.

I had something of this going for me. They didn't exactly say it, but then again, I didn't want to ask for clarification, only to have them realize that I wasn't quite done yet.

MeowMix, the situation you describe is terrible. I had to do one revision on my MS thesis during my first month of med school (advisor needed to prove his point). It was horrible being strung between two priorities, and it was no fun contemplating that I might have to let the MS drop so that I could have time for the MD.

 

[relentless11]

I had something of this going for me. They didn't exactly say it, but then again, I didn't want to ask for clarification, only to have them realize that I wasn't quite done yet.

MeowMix, the situation you describe is terrible. I had to do one revision on my MS thesis during my first month of med school (advisor needed to prove his point). It was horrible being strung between two priorities, and it was no fun contemplating that I might have to let the MS drop so that I could have time for the MD.

We had a PhD student finish their thesis the first quarter of med school. I don't exactly know how they got in, but the take home message from her was it was the worst possible quarter in her life..haha. My guess is she was almost done (with proof from the PI/chair or something), and so they allowed her to matriculate. Conversely, my colleague was not even allowed to get an interview without the chair's written confirmation that he would complete his PhD on time. Maybe its different if you were originally doing a grad degree at the med school you applied to...as in the case with that girl.

All in all, not a recommended venture, but hey, if they let me in, and I still have to finish a thesis, I'd do it too .

 

[cbd]

Agree!!

 

[cbd]

Just wondering how everyone is doing?

I have a lot of holds.... Pre-interview and post :-(

I'm waiting to hear from UIC and CCLCM.

waiting waiting waiting....

 

[Skelfie]

Hi fellow PhD-to-MD people! I'm sort of a weirdo because I did a PhD in the history of medicine. In the last three years of my grad program I realized that I liked science much more than history (but still finished my program because I couldn't throw away all that work...).

I'm really interested in academic medicine, but am aware that I have my degree in the totally wrong field, haha. I briefly considered getting a Master's in biochemistry (yay!) and then applying to MSTP programs so I could get better academic medicine street cred or whatever. Then, I realized that I never never never want to write another dissertation. *shudder*

So, I'm applying to regular MD programs and hoping maybe that I can end up in academic medicine anyway -- I love the idea of being able to blend research, teaching, and working with patients.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi fellow PhD-to-MD people! I'm sort of a weirdo because I did a PhD in the history of medicine. In the last three years of my grad program I realized that I liked science much more than history (but still finished my program because I couldn't throw away all that work...).

I'm really interested in academic medicine, but am aware that I have my degree in the totally wrong field, haha. I briefly considered getting a Master's in biochemistry (yay!) and then applying to MSTP programs so I could get better academic medicine street cred or whatever. Then, I realized that I never never never want to write another dissertation. *shudder*

So, I'm applying to regular MD programs and hoping maybe that I can end up in academic medicine anyway -- I love the idea of being able to blend research, teaching, and working with patients.

You could do both (MD and MS) at the same time if you really want the MS. A lot of schools will let you do a fifth year and get a combined MD/MS informally, and some programs actually are designed to be that way. For example, Harvard has its HST program, Pitt has two programs (one for clinical research, one for basic science research), and Case Western has its Cleveland Clinic program. If you're interested in biochem, I think the Pitt BSTP (basic science training program) might be something you should check out. The Harvard HST is meant for people who have more of a physical science or engineering bent (it's done jointly with MIT), so I'm not sure how well that would fit with your goals. The Case Cleveland Clinic program can either be done for basic science or clinical science, so you might want to check that one out too. There are probably other programs like this that I don't know about, but there's a start, anyway. And like I said, even if you go to a regular MD program at say, your state school, you can almost always add a fifth year and get your MS if you want. If it's a university, someone there is doing research somewhere.

I don't think that you can have a degree in the "wrong" field, FWIW. You just have to figure out how a degree in history of medicine would be an asset in medical research. I'm sure that if nothing else, it gives you a unique perspective compared to the rest of us.

Edit: Ok, I just saw your profile and realized that you are already applying. So probably none of that advice will apply, except that you could look into doing an extra year and getting your MS from MCW. They probably have it as an option. Congrats on your acceptance, BTW.

 

[Skelfie]

You could do both (MD and MS) at the same time if you really want the MS. A lot of schools will let you do a fifth year and get a combined MD/MS informally, and some programs actually are designed to be that way. For example, Harvard has its HST program, Pitt has two programs (one for clinical research, one for basic science research), and Case Western has its Cleveland Clinic program. If you're interested in biochem, I think the Pitt BSTP (basic science training program) might be something you should check out. The Harvard HST is meant for people who have more of a physical science or engineering bent (it's done jointly with MIT), so I'm not sure how well that would fit with your goals. The Case Cleveland Clinic program can either be done for basic science or clinical science, so you might want to check that one out too. There are probably other programs like this that I don't know about, but there's a start, anyway. And like I said, even if you go to a regular MD program at say, your state school, you can almost always add a fifth year and get your MS if you want. If it's a university, someone there is doing research somewhere.

I don't think that you can have a degree in the "wrong" field, FWIW. You just have to figure out how a degree in history of medicine would be an asset in medical research. I'm sure that if nothing else, it gives you a unique perspective compared to the rest of us.

Edit: Ok, I just saw your profile and realized that you are already applying. So probably none of that advice will apply, except that you could look into doing an extra year and getting your MS from MCW. They probably have it as an option. Congrats on your acceptance, BTW.

Thank you, QofQuimica!!! I didn't even think about applying to Harvard since my MCAT score is on the average side (I had too much going on in the months before that test, but I'm not getting any younger so I figured I'd just press on rather than re-take...) And I think that Case sent me about 10 different rejection letters, hahaha. I do wish I'd known about Pitt -- that sounds like a good option (alas, I had very little guidance when applying).

One of the schools that interviewed me is super flexible on the getting an MS/MD plan, but I haven't heard diddly squat from them. I'll certainly look into that option at MCW.

And, thanks for the comment on my applicant page! My first one... *sniff*

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you, QofQuimica!!! I didn't even think about applying to Harvard since my MCAT score is on the average side (I had too much going on in the months before that test, but I'm not getting any younger so I figured I'd just press on rather than re-take...) And I think that Case sent me about 10 different rejection letters, hahaha. I do wish I'd known about Pitt -- that sounds like a good option (alas, I had very little guidance when applying).

One of the schools that interviewed me is super flexible on the getting an MS/MD plan, but I haven't heard diddly squat from them. I'll certainly look into that option at MCW.

And, thanks for the comment on my applicant page! My first one... *sniff*

We could be twins. I'm 31 too.

I took a look at the MCW website. I don't see anything on there about an official MD-MS program, but I'm willing to bet that you could still do one if you ask them. They have an MD-PhD program and formal summer research fellowships for straight MD students, so obviously the research opportunities are there. Biochemistry is one of the PhD options, BTW, so you could definitely do biochem work there.

I was just thinking, history of medicine is a really neat field. I read a book a while back about Mark Twain and medicine. It talked about what medicine was like in this country back in the 19th century. Very interesting. What did you do for your PhD work?