MD and PhD? How much do doctors have to work?

[LizzyM]

I guess I am a bit confused. How is the OP's choice to pursue something that they are inherently good at and are highly motivated to pursue something that necessarily will destroy the relationship with her parents?

As an amateur psychologist/sociologist, what I see is that the parents' identity is a corporate/family identity and their own self-esteem is based on their child's accomplishments and success. In social groups of this type, parents are grandparents are continually reporting on their child's achievements and patting themselves on the back and basking in the glory of having a child on the honor roll, admitted to this or that university, attending medical school, being awarded a prize, etc, etc. It isn't enough to get into medical school, it has to be a big name school. It is terrible to match into family medicine when everyone knows that the smartest and most beautiful people are in derm. You give in on this and the next thing you know they are dictating whom you will marry, micromanaging your pregnancies, and telling you how to raise their grandchildren. For some of these families, medicine is the pinnacle of success and any other profession, however noble, is considered social suicide. I pity them and their children because it seems that so much of their happiness is dependent on how they believe others perceive them.

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[GummyBeh]

As an amateur psychologist/sociologist, what I see is that the parents' identity is a corporate/family identity and their own self-esteem is based on their child's accomplishments and success. In social groups of this type, parents are grandparents are continually reporting on their child's achievements and patting themselves on the back and basking in the glory of having a child on the honor roll, admitted to this or that university, attending medical school, being awarded a prize, etc, etc. It isn't enough to get into medical school, it has to be a big name school. It is terrible to match into family medicine when everyone knows that the smartest and most beautiful people are in derm. You give in on this and the next thing you know they are dictating whom you will marry, micromanaging your pregnancies, and telling you how to raise their grandchildren. For some of these families, medicine is the pinnacle of success and any other profession, however noble, is considered social suicide. I pity them and their children because it seems that so much of their happiness is dependent on how they believe others perceive them.

As an armachair evoluationary psychologist (kidding kidding) it kind of make sense though, they want to assure the best of all possible worlds for their progeny, and based on statistics showing economic gaps and mobility-- wealth and connections are some of the safest means of ensuring success.

The problem while careers like nursing, medicine, engineering etc. are conceived by the general population as 'safe' means of achieving mobility and success... someone who has talent in a field might be better served and capable of achieving greater heights avoiding these routes. Parents and society in general, when they manage to calculate risks and rewards, tend to be risk averse and prioritize certain rewards over other just-as-important rewards.

 

[Muffinho]

@Ladynerd, Sweetie, you are a freshman. You don't have the strength to be an independent adult but you aren't going to apply to medical school or anything else for at least 2 more years. Keep working hard, keep an open mind, take the GRE this time next year to see where you stand.

Also, look for articles like this one and use them to engage your parents in a discussion about what you'd like to do with your life:
http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...ues/articles/2014_06_13/science.opms.r1400143

I wanted to piggy back on this. There are a lot of medicine related careers for people who are very strong in mathematics. There are a number of mathematical biology graduate programs, biostatistics, bioinformatics and quantiative biology programs etc. I volunteer at a major cancer research centre in Toronto, and they always need people with backgrounds in the quantitative sciences.

 

[Salt Salt]

I sympathize with you, OP. There were many things I did before/during/after college that my parents didn't approve of, even though they proved to be beneficial in the long run (e.g. my choice to work after college for a few years before applying to medical school---things like that). Let's ignore theoretical discussions of cultural values and personal independence for a minute and focus on the pragmatic. Here are a few things that might help, based on what worked when I talked to my parents:

1. Show them that there are multiple paths to medicine. Not everyone is a biology major (and math majors do great in admissions cycles, btw—better than biology majors). Many people start out in one career before moving toward medicine, and are better physicians/applicants for it. Focus on the mathematical pre-reqs for now (physics, statistics, calc, etc.) and if, in a few years time, you find yourself more interested in medicine than you thought you would, start taking orgo and biology. Marshall up evidence showing that math majors do great in admissions cycles, that non-trads are often looked upon favorably in admissions, etc. etc. and convince your parents you'll be at a disadvantage if you ignore your strengths (e.g. math).

2. Ask your parents why they want you to pursue medicine and then spend a week researching how a career in theoretical mathematics will fill all those goals better than medicine. Financial security? Convince them that theoretical mathematicians make enough money for a happy life (psychology research has shown that life satisfaction and income are correlated but the relationship plateaus after about $70k---find these studies and show them). Job security? Convince them that you can get tenure as an academic mathematician (that is, if you can—if not, best to skip over this point). Social respectability? Explain that nothing is more respectable than an acclaimed mathematician working for a research university (tell them you'd still be a "doctor"---maybe they'll like that)! Your own wellbeing and happiness? Explain to them sincerely that you think mathematics offers you your best shot at a happy life.

3. Have a frank conversation with them about American vs. South Asian cultural values. Your parents are of a different generation and different upbringing, but they are ultimately rational, intelligent individuals who are invested in your success (and, to a large extent, your happiness). In the same way that you are straddling two different cultural values, and in the same way that many posters on here have tried to explain to each other what it's like to grow up the children of immigrants, it's not unrealistic to expect your parents to also be aware of differing cultural values. However, it is unrealistic to expect them to be aware of these on your own. Therefore, you should talk to them about how much stress it is causing you to feel torn between your (perfectly respectable) passion and their goals for you. Also, you should tell them that, while in the South Asian community it's honorable to pursue medicine, in the United States it is dishonorable to pursue something you don't enjoy because your parents made you (I mean, jeeze, look at the vitriol you've experienced on this thread alone). My parents are not immigrants, so perhaps I'm wrong in this respect. But who better than first-gen immigrants in understanding the experience of trying to balance two differing cultures/value systems? Explain to them that a PhD in mathematics is a fantastic balance between American cultural values (self-actualization and pursuing what you love) and South Asian first-gen immigrant values (higher education, financial security, socially respectable job).

 

[jl lin]

As an amateur psychologist/sociologist, what I see is that the parents' identity is a corporate/family identity and their own self-esteem is based on their child's accomplishments and success. In social groups of this type, parents are grandparents are continually reporting on their child's achievements and patting themselves on the back and basking in the glory of having a child on the honor roll, admitted to this or that university, attending medical school, being awarded a prize, etc, etc. It isn't enough to get into medical school, it has to be a big name school. It is terrible to match into family medicine when everyone knows that the smartest and most beautiful people are in derm. You give in on this and the next thing you know they are dictating whom you will marry, micromanaging your pregnancies, and telling you how to raise their grandchildren. For some of these families, medicine is the pinnacle of success and any other profession, however noble, is considered social suicide. I pity them and their children because it seems that so much of their happiness is dependent on how they believe others perceive them.

I mean this is true, but there is a line. It's about setting healthy boundaries, just like any other relationship--cultural aspects notwithstanding.
You are right re: micromanaging everything in your life thereafter. And as a spouse of such a person, well, this I think would put unneeded extra pressure on a marriage. My friend married into a family like that. Her husband just had to go to MS, b/c that's what his parents wanted. He was upset that even though he did Ivy undergrad, he didn't get Harvard for MS. He ended up going to a good school, just not ivy. He hated his residency as a surgeon. He hated his residency in rads. So then he changed to anesthesia and seems a bit happier. Personally I think the best thing he and his wife did was to move up north away from his parents. God bless them, but I felt the stress for my friend--especially when they started to have children.

 

[Ladynerd]

I sympathize with you, OP. There were many things I did before/during/after college that my parents didn't approve of, even though they proved to be beneficial in the long run (e.g. my choice to work after college for a few years before applying to medical school---things like that). Let's ignore theoretical discussions of cultural values and personal independence for a minute and focus on the pragmatic. Here are a few things that might help, based on what worked when I talked to my parents:

1. Show them that there are multiple paths to medicine. Not everyone is a biology major (and math majors do great in admissions cycles, btw—better than biology majors). Many people start out in one career before moving toward medicine, and are better physicians/applicants for it. Focus on the mathematical pre-reqs for now (physics, statistics, calc, etc.) and if, in a few years time, you find yourself more interested in medicine than you thought you would, start taking orgo and biology. Marshall up evidence showing that math majors do great in admissions cycles, that non-trads are often looked upon favorably in admissions, etc. etc. and convince your parents you'll be at a disadvantage if you ignore your strengths (e.g. math).

2. Ask your parents why they want you to pursue medicine and then spend a week researching how a career in theoretical mathematics will fill all those goals better than medicine. Financial security? Convince them that theoretical mathematicians make enough money for a happy life (psychology research has shown that life satisfaction and income are correlated but the relationship plateaus after about $70k---find these studies and show them). Job security? Convince them that you can get tenure as an academic mathematician (that is, if you can—if not, best to skip over this point). Social respectability? Explain that nothing is more respectable than an acclaimed mathematician working for a research university (tell them you'd still be a "doctor"---maybe they'll like that)! Your own wellbeing and happiness? Explain to them sincerely that you think mathematics offers you your best shot at a happy life.

3. Have a frank conversation with them about American vs. South Asian cultural values. Your parents are of a different generation and different upbringing, but they are ultimately rational, intelligent individuals who are invested in your success (and, to a large extent, your happiness). In the same way that you are straddling two different cultural values, and in the same way that many posters on here have tried to explain to each other what it's like to grow up the children of immigrants, it's not unrealistic to expect your parents to also be aware of differing cultural values. However, it is unrealistic to expect them to be aware of these on your own. Therefore, you should talk to them about how much stress it is causing you to feel torn between your (perfectly respectable) passion and their goals for you. Also, you should tell them that, while in the South Asian community it's honorable to pursue medicine, in the United States it is dishonorable to pursue something you don't enjoy because your parents made you (I mean, jeeze, look at the vitriol you've experienced on this thread alone). My parents are not immigrants, so perhaps I'm wrong in this respect. But who better than first-gen immigrants in understanding the experience of trying to balance two differing cultures/value systems? Explain to them that a PhD in mathematics is a fantastic balance between American cultural values (self-actualization and pursuing what you love) and South Asian first-gen immigrant values (higher education, financial security, socially respectable job).

1. In addition to my math BS, I'm going to add a chem BA (because chemistry is my 2nd-favorite subject). And I might shadow a doctor this summer. So I shouldn't have too much of a problem fulfilling med-school requirements.

2. When I showed my parents that the median salary for a mathematician is $100,000, they laughed. They said that a doctor's ENTRY-LEVEL pay is higher than that, and $100,000 is not a high enough salary. I even told them about the $70,000-salary study! As for job stability, they don't care that mathematicians can have a stable life because the job stability for a doctor is even higher.

3. My parents told me that in America, parents give their children freedom, but don't pay for their education, whereas South Asian parents do the opposite. They also said that their friends forced their children into medicine, and now they're happy (I'm not sure if I believe them on that one).

 

[Salt Salt]

1. In addition to my math BS, I'm going to add a chem BA (because chemistry is my 2nd-favorite subject). And I might shadow a doctor this summer. So I shouldn't have too much of a problem fulfilling med-school requirements.

2. When I showed my parents that the median salary for a mathematician is $100,000, they laughed. They said that a doctor's ENTRY-LEVEL pay is higher than that, and $100,000 is not a high enough salary. I even told them about the $70,000-salary study! As for job stability, they don't care that mathematicians can have a stable life because the job stability for a doctor is even higher.

3. My parents told me that in America, parents give their children freedom, but don't pay for their education, whereas South Asian parents do the opposite. They also said that their friends forced their children into medicine, and now they're happy (I'm not sure if I believe them on that one).

Gotcha. Well good luck in finding a solution that works for you!

 

[jl lin]

@jl lin

Unfortunately, the way that OP's parents should respond to such a statement may not be the way that they actually will respond. We don't know the full extent of OP's situation, so assuming a particular rational reaction in light of evidence that OP's parents appear to act unreasonably by our standards may not be appropriate in this instance.

OK? But I was not addressing her parents. I was addressing her, and the general conversation. Cultural aspects notwithstanding.

Shoot there are tests for these sort of things--a person's propensities/strengths/weaknesses that help students/people find out what areas in which they excel or not in order for them to make educational/career decisions.

You do have to draw a line; b/c like Lizzy shared. It will be this, then later on it will be something else. A person, regardless of cultural influences, is either willing to take responsibility for his/her life choices or not. America, the melting pot, has been filled with many generations of such people.

 

[jl lin]

1. In addition to my math BS, I'm going to add a chem BA (because chemistry is my 2nd-favorite subject). And I might shadow a doctor this summer. So I shouldn't have too much of a problem fulfilling med-school requirements.

2. When I showed my parents that the median salary for a mathematician is $100,000, they laughed. They said that a doctor's ENTRY-LEVEL pay is higher than that, and $100,000 is not a high enough salary. I even told them about the $70,000-salary study! As for job stability, they don't care that mathematicians can have a stable life because the job stability for a doctor is even higher.

3. My parents told me that in America, parents give their children freedom, but don't pay for their education, whereas South Asian parents do the opposite. They also said that their friends forced their children into medicine, and now they're happy (I'm not sure if I believe them on that one).

Well, at least you have a plan, and it's cool that you like chem Shadowing will help. So will volunteering in the right places. Just thought I paste this in here for a look-see; but you have probably reviewed some of this already. So it depends on school, full professorship, and other things. The overall range isn't as great, but if you are happy, get a nice position, work your way up, and act as editor on some mathematics books, that would be good. There is also what someone posted above re: biostats, etc. . . and this:

Actuaries are well compensated. Experienced fellows have the potential to earn from $150,000 to $250,000 annually, and many actuaries earn more than that. - See more at: http://www.beanactuary.org/why/?fa=salary#sthash.WRKKzhWK.dpuf

 

[jl lin]

It's not about the money. You are losing money during MS, residency, and fellowship--comparatively. You could be potentially losing 1/2 a mil or so while in this process--not counting the cost of MS.

 

[Muffinho]

It's not about the money. You are losing money during MS, residency, and fellowship--comparatively. You could be potentially losing 1/2 a mil or so while in this process--not counting the cost of MS.

More importantly, OP would most likely be losing a significant amount of happiness doing something only because their parents forced them into it.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Well, at least you have a plan, and it's cool that you like chem Shadowing will help. So will volunteering in the right places. Just thought I paste this in here for a look-see; but you have probably reviewed some of this already. So it depends on school, full professorship, and other things. The overall range isn't as great, but if you are happy, get a nice position, work your way up, and act as editor on some mathematics books, that would be good. There is also what someone posted above re: biostats, etc. . . and this:

Actuaries are well compensated. Experienced fellows have the potential to earn from $150,000 to $250,000 annually, and many actuaries earn more than that. - See more at: http://www.beanactuary.org/why/?fa=salary#sthash.WRKKzhWK.dpuf

Yep and that is with just a baccalaureate degree. You'd earn about just as much as a internal medicine doctor without the debt and the extra 7 years to get there.

 

[IslandStyle808]

1. In addition to my math BS, I'm going to add a chem BA (because chemistry is my 2nd-favorite subject). And I might shadow a doctor this summer. So I shouldn't have too much of a problem fulfilling med-school requirements.

2. When I showed my parents that the median salary for a mathematician is $100,000, they laughed. They said that a doctor's ENTRY-LEVEL pay is higher than that, and $100,000 is not a high enough salary. I even told them about the $70,000-salary study! As for job stability, they don't care that mathematicians can have a stable life because the job stability for a doctor is even higher.

3. My parents told me that in America, parents give their children freedom, but don't pay for their education, whereas South Asian parents do the opposite. They also said that their friends forced their children into medicine, and now they're happy (I'm not sure if I believe them on that one).

Sorry to hear this OP. Your parents are turning this into a pissing contest, which it shouldn't be. The main thing is to show your resolve in doing what you want to do. If you are a South Asian, you are not just a product of South Asian culture but a mixture of South Asian and American culture. This means you have beliefs that will differ from your parents. Even though your parents have given you a lot, it doesn't mean they have the right to micromanage everything in your life. There will be points where you have to stand on your own two feet and say "this is what I want to do with my life!"

It is fine to explore, but when push comes to shove you should be straight forward with them. Even if you do the mathematics major while hiding under the guise of a pre-med, there will be a point where you have to say to your parents "I want to be a mathematician!" This is something you can't side step for long.

 

[Law2Doc]

1. Parental pressure and cultural pressure are not acceptable reasons to become a doctor. Period. It's a very hard, grueling long houred lifetime commitment, and you at least need to like it or have an interest or it will be awful. Think he'll on earth awful. You are going to be dedicating the bulk if your awake life to this career. It's not like going to church for a few hours every Sunday to keep your parents happy -- we are talking about most of your life here. Even people who truly LIKE medicine have a lot of those moments, sitting on the wards all night, wondering if it's all even worth it.

2. There Is no realistic ability to dabble in medicine for a few hours and then go to work at your real passion. There are part time jobs here and there but that's actually sometimes harder to get than you think, and sometimes it's kind of a farce because part time in medicine (or any professional field really) can still be 40 hours a week, while you get paid half the guy who works 70. I wouldn't go into medicine if you aren't planning to make a career of it.

3. It's troubling that you'd select two specialties, unseen, because you think they have less patient interaction. Neither is everyone's cup of tea. Path has the least patient interaction, (not none though -- you are still often in the room with the patient during biopsies) but there's a lot of clinincal med school rotations you'd need to go through to get there. And there's a fair amount if autopsy work involved in path training (and potentially beyond) which isn't within everyone's comfort zone. Autopsies on dead children and fire or drowning victims are things that IMHO if you see once that's more than enough for one lifetime - nasty business. And at the other end there are no jobs -- good luck finding the hours you want when there's such a glut in the market. Radiology actually has a ton of patient interaction these days -- they've become the needle and drain and catheter pushers of most hospitals. Not to mention sonography. Very hands on. This is a field that does a formal intern year too, so you'll get a ton of patient interaction there as well. It's one of the longer nonsurgical training paths -- five years of residency plus another year of fellowship. And then hours are long -- it's a volume business these days. And you have to like sitting in the dark looking at images for hours. And again this is amongst the worst specialty job markets so finding the job flexibility you need might not be so trivial. So I think your notion of doing one of these non-patient related "painless" fields is probably poorly thought out and comes from lack of exposure. Medicine is a tough job. Truly not for everyone. It's not something you can dabble in to make your parents happy. And it's a commitment to lifetime learning because frankly things change and you are expected to be continuously reading and keeping up. It's not like you learn it once and you are done.

4. mathematics is one of those fields where the old adage is that if you haven't "made it" by 35, you probably won't. so you for sure don't want to go down a path of med school and residency where you probably won't have time to do anything math related for literally a decade from age 20-30.

5. In general, if you think you can be happy at something else besides medicine you should do that other thing because medicine is hard and time intensive exacts a much bigger toll on your life than a lot of other paths. You don't even have that issue -- you don't know that you like medicine and really like something unrelated. Go do what you like. If at age 35, etc, you decide you aren't happy as a Mathematician, medicine will always be there. Your parents will get over it.

6. As for starting salary, residents start at 45k after four years of med school debt. You'd make more after residency, but you'd also be many years into your mathematician salary before that kicked In and likely in medicine would have a six digit student loan to service. And that's assuming you even get a job -- in fields like path that's not even a certainty.

 

[northernlights15]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but if you really don't want to do it that bad you could just write a terrible application/or be totally obnoxious at the interviews so schools are forced to reject you.

A lot of parents are forced to come to terms with reality when their kids are simply unable to obtain acceptance at a U.S. medical school.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but if you really don't want to do it that bad you could just ... be totally obnoxious at the interviews so schools are forced to reject you...

Someone has been watching too much Harold and Kumar...

 

[jl lin]

1. Parental pressure and cultural pressure are not acceptable reasons to become a doctor. Period. It's a very hard, grueling long houred lifetime commitment, and you at least need to like it or have an interest or it will be awful. Think he'll on earth awful. You are going to be dedicating the bulk if your awake life to this career. It's not like going to church for a few hours every Sunday to keep your parents happy -- we are talking about most of your life here. Even people who truly LIKE medicine have a lot of those moments, sitting on the wards all night, wondering if it's all even worth it.

2. There Is no realistic ability to dabble in medicine for a few hours and then go to work at your real passion. There are part time jobs here and there but that's actually sometimes harder to get than you think, and sometimes it's kind of a farce because part time in medicine (or any professional field really) can still be 40 hours a week, while you get paid half the guy who works 70. I wouldn't go into medicine if you aren't planning to make a career of it.

3. It's troubling that you'd select two specialties, unseen, because you think they have less patient interaction. Neither is everyone's cup of tea. Path has the least patient interaction, (not none though -- you are still often in the room with the patient during biopsies) but there's a lot of clinincal med school rotations you'd need to go through to get there. And there's a fair amount if autopsy work involved in path training (and potentially beyond) which isn't within everyone's comfort zone. Autopsies on dead children and fire or drowning victims are things that IMHO if you see once that's more than enough for one lifetime - nasty business. And at the other end there are no jobs -- good luck finding the hours you want when there's such a glut in the market. Radiology actually has a ton of patient interaction these days -- they've become the needle and drain and catheter pushers of most hospitals. Not to mention sonography. Very hands on. This is a field that does a formal intern year too, so you'll get a ton of patient interaction there as well. It's one of the longer nonsurgical training paths -- five years of residency plus another year of fellowship. And then hours are long -- it's a volume business these days. And you have to like sitting in the dark looking at images for hours. And again this is amongst the worst specialty job markets so finding the job flexibility you need might not be so trivial. So I think your notion of doing one of these non-patient related "painless" fields is probably poorly thought out and comes from lack of exposure. Medicine is a tough job. Truly not for everyone. It's not something you can dabble in to make your parents happy. And it's a commitment to lifetime learning because frankly things change and you are expected to be continuously reading and keeping up. It's not like you learn it once and you are done.

4. mathematics is one of those fields where the old adage is that if you haven't "made it" by 35, you probably won't. so you for sure don't want to go down a path of med school and residency where you probably won't have time to do anything math related for literally a decade from age 20-30.

5. In general, if you think you can be happy at something else besides medicine you should do that other thing because medicine is hard and time intensive exacts a much bigger toll on your life than a lot of other paths. You don't even have that issue -- you don't know that you Lik medicine end really like something unrelated. Go do what you like. If at age 35, etc, you decide you aren't happy as a Mathematician, medicine will always be there. Your parents will get over it.

6. As for starting salary, residents start at 45k after four years of med school debt. You'd make more after residency, but you'd also be many years into your mathematician salary before that kicked In and likely in medicine would have a six digit student loan to service. And that's assuming you even get a job -- in fields like path that's not even a certainty.

Totally well said. Whichever way you cut it, medicine is a grind. You are either up for it or you are not.
There was someone on here not too long ago that thought he wanted medicine. Got into MS and HATED every minute of it--and that is just 1st and I think part of 2nd year. There are others that have ended up feeling the same way. They simply regretted taking the path but felt they had to finish it, b/c so much money had already been invested in it. If your parents are paying for your MS education, do they want to eat that loss when you walk away saying "Hell no!"?

I don't have any hard figures, but I'd be willing to bet as much as 60% of those that went to MS and residency, etc, regret/regretted doing so. It's just that they have/had loaned up for that amount of money and are sort of forced to keep going--that is, for most of such students anyway. Heck there are people that get full free rides for MS, don't/didn't have any real debt coming out of it, and they strongly dislike it or at least don't want to do it until they die or something close to that.

Some folks don't believe this, but I honestly believe medicine is pretty much a calling. I won't debate that, but I feel like I have worked long enough in healthcare to have witnessed the difference--in many cases, not necessarily all--of feeling called and committed and just doing something b/c not it is how you make a living.

It's not enough to have the grades and scores and money. In my mind, for most of the really good to great docs with whom I worked, there is this, I don't know, "X-factor" going on with them. It's not just about smarts, and it's not about money, ego, pride, status. OK for some of them those things are there; but beyond any of that there is something more going on with them. It's a commitment to fellow human beings and science and research. It's about going the extra mile an not resenting doing so.

I think about the recently departed Dr. Jack Templeton, who worked with Dr. C. Everett Koop. Templeton's dad was loaded from mutual bonds and started the John Templeton Foundation. Dr. Templeton was chief of ped. surg at CHOP, and he only left relatively early (55 but after many years in practice) to run the philanthropic organization. Sure, b/c of his dad's money, certain things about his life were easier; but he was truly dedicated to medicine. His heart and soul were in it. It was his thing.

But consider this. Dr. Jack Templeton could have gone into anything he wanted w/o loans and the struggles that many students have. What did he choose? Medicine. Which part of medicine? Geesh. Surgery (brutal training there). And pediatric surgery of all things! Yea, that is NO easy path. It was certainly no cushy path, even though he had certain advantages that others didn't/don't have.

Even when you love what you do, in a field like this, there are still many MAJOR suck factors--so you had better love it. Taking on medicine is quite similar to me as getting married. You had better not enter into it lightly. You had better be committing and stay committed to the long haul.

If I were considering medicine just for the money, I'd save a heck of a lot of time and money and aggravation and just go CRNA; b/c FM or IM isn't necessarily going to make all that much more than they do. OK, maybe $50,000 grand or so--DEPENDING.

Financial security is an insane reason to go into medicine IMHO. So is doing it b/c your parents want you to do so.

But as my dad used to say, "Shoot...I mean, suit yourself."

 

[LizzyM]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but if you really don't want to do it that bad you could just write a terrible application/or be totally obnoxious at the interviews so schools are forced to reject you.

A lot of parents are forced to come to terms with reality when their kids are simply unable to obtain acceptance at a U.S. medical school.

Very true but if the reason the parents are harping on this is because it puts them at the top of a social pecking order then not being admitted to medical school is a huge shame in their eyes and something that will be thrown in OPs face regularly for the next 50 years anytime anything goes wrong (this wouldnt have happened if you had gotten into medical school). OP, don't give them that ammunition. Dont apply to medical school unless your goal is to attend medical school and don't apply to medical school intending to turn down the offers if you get any.

Do an advanced degree in math first. Get a job, be financially independent, and then break the news to your parents that you don't want to give up the job you love and the work you are good at to devote 7 years training for a career that doesn't really interest you.

 

[The Real SVB]

Lol OP is not an adult yet. She's 18, 19, tops, one year into college and still living at home. Give it a couple years and she'll learn how to stand up for herself.

(I am also Asian with a full understanding of the cultural aspects at play, so spare me the condescension.)

 

[titanmoon]

Second those who said that medicine is a long hard road and that it is a calling. There are much easier routes to financial stability like a degree in CS or ChemE. Only pursue medicine if you really like it and want to help others.

 

[WingedOx]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but if you really don't want to do it that bad you could just write a terrible application/or be totally obnoxious at the interviews so schools are forced to reject you.

A lot of parents are forced to come to terms with reality when their kids are simply unable to obtain acceptance at a U.S. medical school.

Yeah, good luck with that.

 

[Ladynerd]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but if you really don't want to do it that bad you could just write a terrible application/or be totally obnoxious at the interviews so schools are forced to reject you.

A lot of parents are forced to come to terms with reality when their kids are simply unable to obtain acceptance at a U.S. medical school.

LOL, I was actually thinking of doing that. But LizzyM is right.

The thing is, my parents don't think I'll be able to live comfortably at $100,000/year (the average annual salary of a mathematician), even though they know that's much higher than the national average, that I want to marry someone with a job, and that I'm confident I don't want children. They also think that I'll love medicine once I get into it. But, other than silly little childhood dreams like becoming a princess, artist, etc., they didn't have a dream to be anything other than a doctor. Sometimes I feel as though they see my dream of becoming a mathematician as a silly little child's dream as well because to them, I AM just a child. Sure, I'm not won't even be a 20-something til January, but I'm not a little a kid anymore either; I'm seriously passionate about math. It's something I've had a propensity for ever since I could remember and love even more with every challenging math course I take.

I do enjoy science, but not as much as math, and it's the theory I love, not the hands-on stuff. I know theory is a part of being a doctor, but there's so much hands-on stuff too. I think I might actually enjoy the first two years of med school (as well as the lifetime of learning), but other than that, I'd be miserable. And as dorky as it sounds, I'd feel pretty empty without math in my life.

 

[jl lin]

You are young. You'll figure it out. Give it time, and enjoy your studies and journey.

 

[medicalCPA]

LOL, I was actually thinking of doing that. But LizzyM is right.

The thing is, my parents don't think I'll be able to live comfortably at $100,000/year (the average annual salary of a mathematician), even though they know that's much higher than the national average, that I want to marry someone with a job, and that I'm confident I don't want children. They also think that I'll love medicine once I get into it. But, other than silly little childhood dreams like becoming a princess, artist, etc., they didn't have a dream to be anything other than a doctor. Sometimes I feel as though they see my dream of becoming a mathematician as a silly little child's dream as well because to them, I AM just a child. Sure, I'm not won't even be a 20-something til January, but I'm not a little a kid anymore either; I'm seriously passionate about math. It's something I've had a propensity for ever since I could remember and love even more with every challenging math course I take.

I do enjoy science, but not as much as math, and it's the theory I love, not the hands-on stuff. I know theory is a part of being a doctor, but there's so much hands-on stuff too. I think I might actually enjoy the first two years of med school (as well as the lifetime of learning), but other than that, I'd be miserable. And as dorky as it sounds, I'd feel pretty empty without math in my life.

How are they defining "living comfortably"? I realize you might not want to confront them, but if ever you are up to it, you might want to ask them what standard of living they have in mind that cannot be sustained on a $100,000/year salary.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but if you really don't want to do it that bad you could just write a terrible application/or be totally obnoxious at the interviews so schools are forced to reject you.

A lot of parents are forced to come to terms with reality when their kids are simply unable to obtain acceptance at a U.S. medical school.

Guess what these parents do instead....

...they'll make 'em apply to the Caribbean.

There are just some parents that don't cope with reality very well. Let's hope the kids are up to date on their SDN reading of this subject.

 

[Law2Doc]

Guess what these parents do instead....

...they'll make 'em apply to the Caribbean.

There are just some parents that don't cope with reality very well. Let's hope the kids are up to date on their SDN reading of this subject.

Actually if you don't really want to become a doctor, spending a few years partying in the Caribbean sounds like a decent plan. Your parents can tell everyone you are in med school for a few years and then when you can't get a residency you duck into a grad school able to say to them "hey, I tried".