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MD/PhD hopeful - WAMCs?
- Thread starter hamstring
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FWIW I had a similar mcat, applied very broadly and managed to get multiple interviews . I did have a higher gpa, although your research experience is better than mine.
I would cross off schools like Stanford and case western unless you are URM or can sell your hearing loss as something that put you at a disadvantage. I also feel like you are gonna need a longer school list, especially one with more "low/mid" tier schools that have a decent number of slots. Some excellent programs that gave me a chance were UConn, UTHSC San Antonio, Nebraska, MUSC and UMass
I would cross off schools like Stanford and case western unless you are URM or can sell your hearing loss as something that put you at a disadvantage. I also feel like you are gonna need a longer school list, especially one with more "low/mid" tier schools that have a decent number of slots. Some excellent programs that gave me a chance were UConn, UTHSC San Antonio, Nebraska, MUSC and UMass
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You might get into a lower tier program as it stands but it's a gamble at this point with the equivalent of a 3.7/29-30. Datypicalpremed has the right idea.
It's not too late to retake the MCAT potentially for this year if you could cram hard for at least a month and have new scores by early October (earlier the better).
Sorry it didn't go as well as you might have hoped. You could always apply MD as a backup or reapply next year with a new MCAT score.
It's not too late to retake the MCAT potentially for this year if you could cram hard for at least a month and have new scores by early October (earlier the better).
Sorry it didn't go as well as you might have hoped. You could always apply MD as a backup or reapply next year with a new MCAT score.
Hi, hamstring!! I'm so glad to see you post on here. In all honesty, as I read through your post, I see a lot of myself in it. We're different in some ways, but I feel like I can really relate to your profile! I'm sorry that the MCAT didn't end up coming back as you were hoping. I know that is so frustrating. I am only n=1, but in the spirit of full disclosure, I am entering an MSTP this year with a 508. I will concede that a lower score definitely, absolutely makes things an uphill battle... but it is possible!!
As a disclaimer to my point above and my whole post, I will also note that my GPA was fairly significantly higher... I am not sure if that changes the comparison between us and this situation at all especially now that, as Fencer has mentioned on other posts, programs are obligated to report GPA only (not MCAT) for their incoming students. But your GPA is fairly solid, and if MCAT really is counting for less, this also helps you. Your GPA just won't be doing you any huge favors or necessarily "compensating" for the MCAT, but I think some other parts of your application will help you stand out. Your research is excellent and it sounds like you are very on top of framing your story and putting out the best version of yourself that you can, and I think this is perhaps the most important thing to do in your situation.
I really want to stress the importance of applying early. I am fully confident that I received interviews that, had I applied later in the cycle, I would not have received. When all of the interview slots are open, schools are more likely to 'take a chance' in a sense and give you an interview than when you are competing for just the last few slots. In this regard, I will have to (for the first time!) very, very kindly and respectfully disagree with Neuronix above. I feel that IF you are set on applying this year, I would highly recommend NOT re-taking the MCAT; instead, focus your time and energy on crafting your application, finding the right schools, and communicating your intentions as best as you can. The only exception I could see here is if something that happened during the test (maybe you were really sick, the power went out, etc) that made your score much lower than anything you were receiving in practice tests. If you have STRONG evidence to suggest that you would do better on a re-take, it may be worthwhile. A 515+ maybe later on might be better than applying with your current score now... but this is quite a gamble.
In my experience, re-taking the MCAT with only a month or so of cramming is likely not a good idea. You will need to significantly improve your first score, and this does not come as easily as it sounds. I personally bring this up because I took the MCAT twice and made this mistake. I took about a month to cram and thought I could do better, but I was actually stuck with the same exact score: a 30 the first time and a 508 the second time. I now not only showed that I couldn't improve or exercise good judgment/awareness and learn from my first time, but I also created a new red flag by scoring much worse in the biological sciences section. While things worked out for me in the end, this was a bad mistake. I retook in May, so I was still able to submit early. Again, I believe this was critical. In your case, you will be taking the risk that something similar may happen, and if you are submitting the same score but now late (Oct or whenever), I think it will be a very, very, very hard obstacle to overcome.
I do agree that Datypicalpremed's advice is absolutely spot on. The programs he/she named would be phenomenal additions to your list. In general, I would suggest adding more large, funded but non-MSTP MD/PhD programs. Think about UT Houston, University of Miami, and SUNY Upstate in NY. Also some lesser known MSTPs: MUSC would be an excellent choice, Indiana and Stony Brook are good from what you have listed, UAB. Look into more schools at this caliber if you can. I'd say to add safer options for you just to make sure... you can always cancel interviews later on if schools end up overlooking your MCAT score!
You are very welcome to view my MDapps page, which talks a lot about the MCAT and about how I tried to show my story and my passion with a lower score: http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=31593
As a disclaimer to my point above and my whole post, I will also note that my GPA was fairly significantly higher... I am not sure if that changes the comparison between us and this situation at all especially now that, as Fencer has mentioned on other posts, programs are obligated to report GPA only (not MCAT) for their incoming students. But your GPA is fairly solid, and if MCAT really is counting for less, this also helps you. Your GPA just won't be doing you any huge favors or necessarily "compensating" for the MCAT, but I think some other parts of your application will help you stand out. Your research is excellent and it sounds like you are very on top of framing your story and putting out the best version of yourself that you can, and I think this is perhaps the most important thing to do in your situation.
I really want to stress the importance of applying early. I am fully confident that I received interviews that, had I applied later in the cycle, I would not have received. When all of the interview slots are open, schools are more likely to 'take a chance' in a sense and give you an interview than when you are competing for just the last few slots. In this regard, I will have to (for the first time!) very, very kindly and respectfully disagree with Neuronix above. I feel that IF you are set on applying this year, I would highly recommend NOT re-taking the MCAT; instead, focus your time and energy on crafting your application, finding the right schools, and communicating your intentions as best as you can. The only exception I could see here is if something that happened during the test (maybe you were really sick, the power went out, etc) that made your score much lower than anything you were receiving in practice tests. If you have STRONG evidence to suggest that you would do better on a re-take, it may be worthwhile. A 515+ maybe later on might be better than applying with your current score now... but this is quite a gamble.
In my experience, re-taking the MCAT with only a month or so of cramming is likely not a good idea. You will need to significantly improve your first score, and this does not come as easily as it sounds. I personally bring this up because I took the MCAT twice and made this mistake. I took about a month to cram and thought I could do better, but I was actually stuck with the same exact score: a 30 the first time and a 508 the second time. I now not only showed that I couldn't improve or exercise good judgment/awareness and learn from my first time, but I also created a new red flag by scoring much worse in the biological sciences section. While things worked out for me in the end, this was a bad mistake. I retook in May, so I was still able to submit early. Again, I believe this was critical. In your case, you will be taking the risk that something similar may happen, and if you are submitting the same score but now late (Oct or whenever), I think it will be a very, very, very hard obstacle to overcome.
I do agree that Datypicalpremed's advice is absolutely spot on. The programs he/she named would be phenomenal additions to your list. In general, I would suggest adding more large, funded but non-MSTP MD/PhD programs. Think about UT Houston, University of Miami, and SUNY Upstate in NY. Also some lesser known MSTPs: MUSC would be an excellent choice, Indiana and Stony Brook are good from what you have listed, UAB. Look into more schools at this caliber if you can. I'd say to add safer options for you just to make sure... you can always cancel interviews later on if schools end up overlooking your MCAT score!
You are very welcome to view my MDapps page, which talks a lot about the MCAT and about how I tried to show my story and my passion with a lower score: http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=31593
Hi guys, thank you for your advice!
Thanks for your school suggestions! - I'll definitely add them to my list and explore some of the larger programs that may be more open to taking a 'risk' with my MCAT.
Thanks for your advice Neuronix. I've been weighing the pros and cons of retaking the MCAT for this cycle, but I don't think that I could significantly improve my MCAT score ("significantly" meaning outside the bands of confidence for my score, which would mean >= 510 for me) in a couple just a couple months because I'm working full-time this summer with an internship. I don't think it's out of my reach to increase my score, but I do think I'd be stretching it to attempt to increase it so soon. In my case, do you think timing of my application would be more to my advantage than gambling on a better MCAT? If I don't retake, I expect to have a completed application by mid-late July. I also don't want to put myself at a disadvantage by doing worse this cycle and sinking my chances of even getting looked at. I do realize that scores are scores and I'm not trying to make excuses for not retaking the test - if I find myself unsuccessful this cycle, I'll know why.
Do you think I would be competitive as an MD applicant? I don't have a ton of volunteering/shadowing experiences and hours - wouldn't this be a red flag for adcoms?
Hi starfun, thank you for your detailed post and congrats on your MSTP acceptance! When your MCAT was brought up in interviews, did you get the impression that your interviewer was trying to see why it was low, or more just making an observation? At the interview stage, do you believe the MCAT plays a large role in acceptance/rejection? Obviously if it comes down to two candidates with comparable research but different grades/test scores it will make a difference, but how would you say it factors in when comparing all interviewed applicants?
Thanks for your school suggestions! - I'll definitely add them to my list and explore some of the larger programs that may be more open to taking a 'risk' with my MCAT.
Thanks for your advice Neuronix. I've been weighing the pros and cons of retaking the MCAT for this cycle, but I don't think that I could significantly improve my MCAT score ("significantly" meaning outside the bands of confidence for my score, which would mean >= 510 for me) in a couple just a couple months because I'm working full-time this summer with an internship. I don't think it's out of my reach to increase my score, but I do think I'd be stretching it to attempt to increase it so soon. In my case, do you think timing of my application would be more to my advantage than gambling on a better MCAT? If I don't retake, I expect to have a completed application by mid-late July. I also don't want to put myself at a disadvantage by doing worse this cycle and sinking my chances of even getting looked at. I do realize that scores are scores and I'm not trying to make excuses for not retaking the test - if I find myself unsuccessful this cycle, I'll know why.
Do you think I would be competitive as an MD applicant? I don't have a ton of volunteering/shadowing experiences and hours - wouldn't this be a red flag for adcoms?
Hi starfun, thank you for your detailed post and congrats on your MSTP acceptance! When your MCAT was brought up in interviews, did you get the impression that your interviewer was trying to see why it was low, or more just making an observation? At the interview stage, do you believe the MCAT plays a large role in acceptance/rejection? Obviously if it comes down to two candidates with comparable research but different grades/test scores it will make a difference, but how would you say it factors in when comparing all interviewed applicants?
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Your logic is sound. If you can't devote the time to really studying hard again for the MCAT, don't retake it.
Even if you did retake, I'd advise applying early, and update the applications and add additional programs after the new scores are back (assuming they improve).
Looks like you've got about 100 hours of volunteering/shadowing. Looks like you have some other stuff going on too. So yeah, you'd be competitive. SDN is the home of the uber-gunner, but not every pre-med is completely insane with 20 different ECs (which are often all fluff anyway). Part of this will depend on your state. If you're an ORM in California only applying on the west coast it'll be harder than if you live in a statte with less competitive state schools. You always have the out of top tier private programs to apply to as well, for some of which you have their average stats. Sure, they're expensive but they're still med school.
Every school is different on this stuff. MCAT may only matter to get the interview. MCAT may remain important even after the interview. MCAT may not matter much. MCAT may be very important. Some programs change their policies it from year to year. Heck, the program might not even have a set policy, and it just depends which adcom reviews your file. That's what makes this impossible to predict and you just have to apply broadly.
I find Neuronix's advice (particularly to the first and third questions, which are more in my area!) to be incredibly spot on here. Great idea about updating programs with the new score as well rather than letting the application sit on hold if you were going to retake -- I didn't think about that!
My experience with the MCAT in interviews was pretty similar to what Neuronix describes. It was interesting because each of the schools actually phrased the question differently. One school was more direct about it; the interviewer (an older guy) was basically double-checking my basic info. So he was saying that I was from a certain town, that I went to this school, blah blah, kind of just stuff where I would say yes or no. He said it all looked good, etc, and then just got this crazy look on his face and said, "So your MCAT score -- what happened there?" in a not so thrilled tone lol.
At another school (and particularly one where my MCAT was HUGELY below the norm), it came up in almost every interview but in a different way, mainly in one that reassured me that it was OK? Lol. A student interviewer said, "So I see you took the new MCAT. That wasn't around when I applied. What was it like?" and followed it up with, "What did you find most challenging about it?" Then my second interviewer there was just an adorable person and he went on a long rant about how he loved so much of my application and would be really mad if the MCAT was something that deterred me from entering there because I was "exactly the person this program is looking for." (As a side note, I did not get accepted to that school). I found that encouraging and sweet. On the flip side, this type of phrasing actually gave me less of an opportunity to have a conversation about what I learned from it, etc, although I suppose it wasn't needed in this conversation. Interestingly, no school ever directly brought up the fact that I had taken the MCAT twice... but I suspect they would have if I had two scores that were on the same scoring scale and could be compared more directly, which would be your case.
Overall, as Neuronix mentions, some schools tend to screen more heavily academically before the interview, and then after that, stats become less of an issue. For MD, there are some schools that will completely disregard your stats after you get the interview; unfortunately, I doubt that any MD/PhD programs work this way to the full extent, but I do think that academics can become less important at some. What I actually found most helpful was when schools allowed me to give a "chalk talk" -- generally, this was a great opportunity for me to showcase my public speaking skills while also showing that I had really done and mastered my research independently. I was told at both institutions where I presented during an interview that my chalk talk helped my application.
Now, I was not accepted right away at either institution. These were still the two schools where I was likely most successful. I cannot know for sure, but I do suspect that I came into the interview at somewhat of a disadvantage due to my MCAT score. So perhaps (but note that this is ONLY theory/observation from one student and not something I know for sure) not everyone comes into the interview on equal footing. I had also guessed ahead of time that this might be the case, so I really put every effort possible into completely acing my interviews -- I bought a whole new wardrobe (yes, with apps and this, I spent all of the savings I had from my 3 jobs), practiced interviewing with multiple people multiple times including in front of cameras so I could watch them back, corresponded frequently with schools, and took advantage of every opportunity. I knew I'd be inspected under a microscope. Again, it'll be an uphill battle with a lower-than-average-for-MD/PhD MCAT score and you'll definitely have to be extra careful in every part of the process, but it's possible!
My experience with the MCAT in interviews was pretty similar to what Neuronix describes. It was interesting because each of the schools actually phrased the question differently. One school was more direct about it; the interviewer (an older guy) was basically double-checking my basic info. So he was saying that I was from a certain town, that I went to this school, blah blah, kind of just stuff where I would say yes or no. He said it all looked good, etc, and then just got this crazy look on his face and said, "So your MCAT score -- what happened there?" in a not so thrilled tone lol.
At another school (and particularly one where my MCAT was HUGELY below the norm), it came up in almost every interview but in a different way, mainly in one that reassured me that it was OK? Lol. A student interviewer said, "So I see you took the new MCAT. That wasn't around when I applied. What was it like?" and followed it up with, "What did you find most challenging about it?" Then my second interviewer there was just an adorable person and he went on a long rant about how he loved so much of my application and would be really mad if the MCAT was something that deterred me from entering there because I was "exactly the person this program is looking for." (As a side note, I did not get accepted to that school). I found that encouraging and sweet. On the flip side, this type of phrasing actually gave me less of an opportunity to have a conversation about what I learned from it, etc, although I suppose it wasn't needed in this conversation. Interestingly, no school ever directly brought up the fact that I had taken the MCAT twice... but I suspect they would have if I had two scores that were on the same scoring scale and could be compared more directly, which would be your case.
Overall, as Neuronix mentions, some schools tend to screen more heavily academically before the interview, and then after that, stats become less of an issue. For MD, there are some schools that will completely disregard your stats after you get the interview; unfortunately, I doubt that any MD/PhD programs work this way to the full extent, but I do think that academics can become less important at some. What I actually found most helpful was when schools allowed me to give a "chalk talk" -- generally, this was a great opportunity for me to showcase my public speaking skills while also showing that I had really done and mastered my research independently. I was told at both institutions where I presented during an interview that my chalk talk helped my application.
Now, I was not accepted right away at either institution. These were still the two schools where I was likely most successful. I cannot know for sure, but I do suspect that I came into the interview at somewhat of a disadvantage due to my MCAT score. So perhaps (but note that this is ONLY theory/observation from one student and not something I know for sure) not everyone comes into the interview on equal footing. I had also guessed ahead of time that this might be the case, so I really put every effort possible into completely acing my interviews -- I bought a whole new wardrobe (yes, with apps and this, I spent all of the savings I had from my 3 jobs), practiced interviewing with multiple people multiple times including in front of cameras so I could watch them back, corresponded frequently with schools, and took advantage of every opportunity. I knew I'd be inspected under a microscope. Again, it'll be an uphill battle with a lower-than-average-for-MD/PhD MCAT score and you'll definitely have to be extra careful in every part of the process, but it's possible!
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