MD Residency followed by DO Fellowship

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bg3323

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So I've seen a lot of threads that talk about doing a DO Residency and then going into an MD Fellowship, but is there any information about the reverse (i.e., going into an MD Residency, but then entering a DO Fellowship)? I can't find anything about what the requirements are for in order to be eligible for DO fellowships.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

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Why would anyone do this?

Just to keep more options open -- say you do ACGME General Surgery and want to go into a competitive fellowship like Plastic Surgery. It would just give you more options to consider and possibly increase your chances of entering into that specialty. Definitely not saying this is my plan or normal by any means, but wanted to gain a bit of info about if its even possible
 
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I don't think there are any worthwhile DO fellowships. And I definitely don't think there is a plastics fellowship
 
I don't think there are any worthwhile DO fellowships. And I definitely don't think there is a plastics fellowship

Well, you're definitely wrong, there are actually a fair amount of plastics fellowships, but thanks for your solid insight..
 
Well, you're definitely wrong, there are actually a fair amount of plastics fellowships, but thanks for your solid insight..

Yes, a whole 8... that's tons. And in great locations like Farmington Hills, Michigan or Warrensville Heights Ohio or the ever popular Des Moines or Detroit.
 
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Yes, you can do this, but you have to do something similar to Res 42 (another Res, maybe the one thePoopologist mentioned) to get your ACGME residency recognized as AOA equivalent. Also, you may have to do something stupid like stay as an AOA member during residency or something. I'm being all nice and vague, because I'm tired.

Also this doesn't matter of you see yourself applying for fellowships after 2020. If it's before that, then by all means, look into this.

http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...essionid=f030f0fd33040b0132a61a5c131b6f1911d7

Btw, won't AOA approved fellowships also fall under the purview of the ACGME?

Not completely until 2020.

Yes, a whole 8... that's tons. And in great locations like Farmington Hills, Michigan or Warrensville Heights Ohio or the ever popular Des Moines or Detroit.

Not sure of the point of your post. OP was responding to someone who said there were none. Unless the number was 0, not sure why it matters whether it's 3, 5, 8, or 80. As far as locations go, everybody has different tastes.
 
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Yes, you can do this, but you have to do something similar to Res 42 (another Res, maybe the one thePoopologist mentioned) to get your ACGME residency recognized as AOA equivalent. Also, you may have to do something stupid like stay as an AOA member during residency or something. I'm being all nice and vague, because I'm tired.

Also this doesn't matter of you see yourself applying for fellowships after 2020. If it's before that, then by all means, look into this.



Not completely until 2020.



Not sure of the point of your post. OP was responding to someone who said there were none. Unless the number was 0, not sure why it matters whether it's 3, 5, 8, or 80. As far as locations go, everybody has different tastes.

Also, just to add to this, if you are looking at getting into plastics you better be willing to go almost anywhere for residency. Otherwise, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
 
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Yes, a whole 8... that's tons. And in great locations like Farmington Hills, Michigan or Warrensville Heights Ohio or the ever popular Des Moines or Detroit.

Ah, great point, and excellent job counting those up, very impressive.
 
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Again, why on earth would any sober person do this?
He's become THE go-to OMT guy in the area… clearing 300K easily. During 3 years of ACGME FM, he performed minimal OMM. The year in NMM provided ample time to focus on his skills. He's legit too. 2+ month wait to get an appointment. Knows his medicine inside-out. Utilizes his hands-on skills without any of the hocus-pocus b.s.

I don't know… seems to be working out pretty ok in this anecdote.

Different strokes for different folks.
 
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He's become THE go-to OMT guy in the area… clearing 300K easily. During 3 years of ACGME FM, he performed minimal OMM. The year in NMM provided ample time to focus on his skills. He's legit too. 2+ month wait to get an appointment. Knows his medicine inside-out. Utilizes his hands-on skills without any of the hocus-pocus b.s.

I don't know… seems to be working out pretty ok in this anecdote.

Different strokes for different folks.

All OMM is hocus pocus. NMM is a disgrace to patients and healthcare. It is insurance fraud in my opinion
 
All OMM is hocus pocus. NMM is a disgrace to patients and healthcare. It is insurance fraud in my opinion

Are you an MD or a DO? I'm curious about your training since you're so opinionated about osteopathic training.
 

Good to see you take a good amount of pride in your degree. I don't plan to use OMM in the future, but why did you spend $200,000+ earning a DO degree when you have zero respect for it or the associated residencies/fellowships (which you've proven to not know much about)?
 
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Good to see you take a good amount of pride in your degree. I don't plan to use OMM in the future, but why did you spend $200,000+ earning a DO degree when you have zero respect for it or the associated residencies/fellowships (which you've proven to not know much about)?
I have plenty respect for the degree, but I have zero respect for OMM because of its lack of peer-reviewed evidence over the last 100+ years.

The fellowship thing is simple. If you do an ACGME residency in gen surg, why on earth would you go back and try to do a DO plastics fellowship? Most, if not all DO residencies are weaker than ACGME ones. This is the reason all DOs want to match an ACGME spot in the first place
 
I agree with the lack of research point, I've had an issue with that for a while. But again, I don't plan to use OMM in the future.

I disagree with your second point. Yes, there are many ACGME gen surg programs that are better than AOA ones, but I also feel that there's a handful of AOA programs that are very strong and provide great training. And if I do forego the DO match and enter into ACGME surgery, I feel that there are several DO plastic fellowships that provide solid training in a very competitive specialty (e.g., South Pointe in Ohio is a Cleveland Clinic hospital, PCOM a has great affiliations with hospitals throughout Philly, Detroit Medical Center sees a ton of cases).

I feel like keeping my options open in such a competitive field, all the while recognizing which programs provide solid training and which ones to avoid, simply gives me more options down the road.
 
Not sure of the point of your post. OP was responding to someone who said there were none. Unless the number was 0, not sure why it matters whether it's 3, 5, 8, or 80. As far as locations go, everybody has different tastes.

Ah, great point, and excellent job counting those up, very impressive.

The original post that got us started on a tangent was that there weren't any worthwhile DO fellowships, especially not plastics.

My point was that the opportunties are essentially non-existant and what is left are in the armpits of America (PS I live close to Warrensville Heights). Were these plastics programs such great opportunties they would be completely filled. 2 out of those 8 programs are filled. The rest have open spots showing that even in a very popular, very competitive fellowship these programs can't attract candidates. That tells you a lot about them
 
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The original post that got us started on a tangent was that there weren't any worthwhile DO fellowships, especially not plastics.

My point was that the opportunties are essentially non-existant and what is left are in the armpits of America (PS I live close to Warrensville Heights). Were these plastics programs such great opportunties they would be completely filled. 2 out of those 8 programs are filled. The rest have open spots showing that even in a very popular, very competitive fellowship these programs can't attract candidates. That tells you a lot about them

I don't know how many times I need to make the same point. There are a HANDFUL or SEVERAL or A FEW programs (possibly even 2 out of 8) that may be worthwhile. But that being said, they are worthwhile nonetheless, and for a competitive specialty I feel that having as many options as possible is a good thing.
 
All OMM is hocus pocus. NMM is a disgrace to patients and healthcare. It is insurance fraud in my opinion

"All, Always, never"… words that rarely ring with wisdom or truth.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. When you see patients' improvement after years of failed therapies, it is tough to deny that some of the stuff actually works. Personally I remain open-minded with a healthy dose of skepticism (especially having been worked on by the individual I mentioned). That's for another thread though.
 
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"All, Always, never"… words that rarely ring with wisdom or truth.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. When you see patients' improvement after years of failed therapies, it is tough to deny that some of the stuff actually works. Personally I remain open-minded with a healthy dose of skepticism (especially having been worked on by the individual I mentioned). That's for another thread though.
Every bit of 'evidence' for OMM is anecdotal.

I did a required OMM a rotation, my 3rd yr, with an NMM a trained doc. I'm not joking, he would put 2 fingers on their forehead for about 5 minutes, then move his palms around on their arms and legs, and then we'd leave the room. I would sit with him at the computer and I would personally click all of the stuff we 'did' and bill the patient. I felt like I was just ripping off these poor hospital pts who had no idea what we were doing and didn't even ask for it in the first place.
 
Every bit of 'evidence' for OMM is anecdotal.

I did a required OMM a rotation, my 3rd yr, with an NMM a trained doc. I'm not joking, he would put 2 fingers on their forehead for about 5 minutes, then move his palms around on their arms and legs, and then we'd leave the room. I would sit with him at the computer and I would personally click all of the stuff we 'did' and bill the patient. I felt like I was just ripping off these poor hospital pts who had no idea what we were doing and didn't even ask for it in the first place.

These types are out there, no doubt. And yes, I feel it's fraudulent as well. But they are not representative of the better OMT docs out there.
 
If DO fellowships were either plentiful or worthwhile the AOA would not have allowed the acgme to take over its residencies. If you remember the whole reason for the merger is that the acgme threatened to bar those who were DO trained from entering acgme fellowships.

As for OMM. There is a lot of literature showing that patients "improve" with placebo and sham surgery so the fact that you've seen patients feel better after OMM is meaningless. It may just be the fact that you did something that made them feel better. Until there are studies showing that OMM is significantly better than sham OMM (placebo) then you can't say that any patient's "improvement" is anything other than placebo effect.
 
This is the worst thread on SDN
 
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Please stay on topic.

As it stands currently:

If someone is in an ACGME IM residency (as a DO) and wants to pursue a competitive fellowship (ie cardiology, GI, PCCM), then you have more options if you include DO fellowships. In order to do so, you have to file for Resolution 56, which recognizes your ACGME IM residency as being AOA-equivalent. This will allow you to take the AOA IM Board Certification Exam. Then at the completion of your AOA fellowship, you can then take the AOA IM-subspecialty exam. Another option, should you not pursue Resolution 56, or don't want to take the AOA IM board certification exam, is to do the AOA fellowship but won't be board eligible by either the ABMS (or in this case, specifically the ABIM) or AOA IM board ... you'll be "trained" in your field, just not board eligible by either boards. May not be the best option to pursue, especially if you are looking for jobs or want hospital credentials.
 
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So I've seen a lot of threads that talk about doing a DO Residency and then going into an MD Fellowship, but is there any information about the reverse (i.e., going into an MD Residency, but then entering a DO Fellowship)? I can't find anything about what the requirements are for in order to be eligible for DO fellowships.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


I did it....I am in a subspecialty of IM. Its easy. You apply to the fellowship and have the AOA certify that your ACGME training is good enough. I took both AOBIM and ABIM passing both easily. There are some great AOA fellowship programs out there. The most important part is becoming certified. No one cares if its AOA or ABMS.
 
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I don't think there are any worthwhile DO fellowships. And I definitely don't think there is a plastics fellowship

Totally disagree.....my fellowship is far superior to the ACGME fellowship at my medicine program.
 


Fair enough but so far my exposure with AOA vs ACGME grads the training from the AOA > ACGME....I still would prefer to be in an ACGME accredited program for the same reasons you keep mouthing off how much better the ACGME is.
 
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Fair enough but so far my exposure with AOA vs ACGME grads the training from the AOA > ACGME....I still would prefer to be in an ACGME accredited program for the same reasons you keep mouthing off how much better the ACGME is.

What do you think makes the AOA training better? It's actually nice to hear a different perspective on AOA GME than what usually makes the round on SDN.
 
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What do you think makes the AOA training better? It's actually nice to hear a different perspective on AOA GME than what usually makes the round on SDN.

I'm sure this really has a lot to do with specific programs. Everyone acts like there's one type of ACGME program and one type of AOA programs. There are thousands of programs on both sides. There are plenty of good AOA programs and plenty of bad ACGME ones. Making a generalization about either one is ridiculous (and ultimately ignorant), especially when the main policy differences have more to do with bureaucracy than anything else.

In my state some of the best hospitals or best ACGME training institutions have parallel AOA programs. Sure in a place with barely any AOA programs they may not be amazing, but state to state, and even hospital to hospital there are big differences in quality of both AOA and ACGME programs.
 
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I don't think there are any worthwhile DO fellowships. And I definitely don't think there is a plastics fellowship

I've heard good things about the AOA GynOnc fellowship associated with Cooper/Rowan. It's associated with the ACGME ob/gyn residency. I think it's pretty absurd to say that there are zero worthwhile DO fellowships out there.
 
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I did it....I am in a subspecialty of IM. Its easy. You apply to the fellowship and have the AOA certify that your ACGME training is good enough. I took both AOBIM and ABIM passing both easily. There are some great AOA fellowship programs out there. The most important part is becoming certified. No one cares if its AOA or ABMS.

Did u have to do Resolution 42 as an intern and Resolution 56 later on? What if your intern year doesn't have those rotations required for OGME-1/TRI (they require a bunch of well-rounded rotations, like ER, surgery, etc) will it still be approved?
 
Did u have to do Resolution 42 as an intern and Resolution 56 later on? What if your intern year doesn't have those rotations required for OGME-1/TRI (they require a bunch of well-rounded rotations, like ER, surgery, etc) will it still be approved?

I was under the impression that you do have to do Res. 42 for PGY1 and then Res. 56 for the remainder of the ACGME years to get the entire residency recognized as AOA equivalent. Judging by how few people get rejected by Res. 42 (small single digit percents) I would be very surprised if you weren't given a way to get it approved. Just try your best to put your ducks in a row and apply for it.
 
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