MD to DVM

[that redhead]

I am going to make some phone calls tomorrow and see if I can arrange some shadowing. I hope that I am able to find someone willing to take me on for a week or so. If I enjoy that, there are a huge number of entry-level positions in animal care around here - farms, shelters, clinics, etc. I should be able to find a decent full-time gig that will allow me to spend some time in the trenches. 2,000 hours by June 2015 seems feasible.

When contacting places to shadow, I would suggest you ask them to take you for a day to start with. Make a good impression and they may let you back for more, but it's a lot more difficult than it seems to just hop into a new place and get lots of shadowing hours. Many threads on that in this forum you may want to read.

Secondly, there is a difference between vet hours and animal experience hours. Vet hours are worth more on the application than animal hours only, so make sure that your experiences are working with a vet, not just with animals. For things like shelters or wildlife clinics, not all have a full time vet on staff; double check that first.

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[AndyQC]

When contacting places to shadow, I would suggest you ask them to take you for a day to start with. Make a good impression and they may let you back for more, but it's a lot more difficult than it seems to just hop into a new place and get lots of shadowing hours. Many threads on that in this forum you may want to read.

Secondly, there is a difference between vet hours and animal experience hours. Vet hours are worth more on the application than animal hours only, so make sure that your experiences are working with a vet, not just with animals. For things like shelters or wildlife clinics, not all have a full time vet on staff; double check that first.

Thanks!

I just got off the phone with a friend who's a receptionist at an emergency department. She is going to talk to one of the vets there and see if they're willing to let me shadow one day this week. Crossing my fingers!

 

[MouseWrangler]

Hey MouseWrangler,

Thanks for the response!

Would you mind elaborating on what you didn't like about medical school? Some aspect of it must have really rubbed you the wrong way to have dropped out after such a large investment. I have only known two people to drop out before, and both did so after their first year. You are the first I've heard of to make it through the preclinical years before deciding it wasn't for you.

Can you specify what the two "new" schools are? Feel free to PM me if you're not comfortable. I know that Midwestern in AZ is very new and Western Pomona opened just a few years ago.

I'll check out the book for sure! Thanks again!

No problem, I hope it helped some! I sent you a rather long book in a PM about why I left med school - totally don't blame you if you skim half of it! And the 2 new schools are Midwestern in AZ and Lincoln Memorial in TN. Both are accepting their first class to start in Fall 2014.

 

[AndyQC]

Looks like I'm all set to shadow tomorrow evening! Any suggestions? I plan on wearing business casual attire and just going in with an open mind. I imagine I won't be permitted to engage in anything hands-on, but excited to watch and learn.

 

[allygator13]

Looks like I'm all set to shadow tomorrow evening! Any suggestions? I plan on wearing business casual attire and just going in with an open mind. I imagine I won't be permitted to engage in anything hands-on, but excited to watch and learn.

Congrats! I worked in emergency for a year, and I feel like it's where I learned most what it really means to be a vet. My main advice is don't be afraid to ask questions! Hopefully you'll see some pretty cool stuff being in emergency

 

[that redhead]

Looks like I'm all set to shadow tomorrow evening! Any suggestions? I plan on wearing business casual attire and just going in with an open mind. I imagine I won't be permitted to engage in anything hands-on, but excited to watch and learn.

You might consider bringing a little notebook so you can jot down any questions or learning issues for later. Don't be afraid to ask questions, be professional and you should have a good experience

 

[Fly Racing]

I would call and ask them if they want you in street clothes or scrubs. Or you can show up with both. Some places I've been at required shadowers wear scrubs to make them less obtrusive to the clients. Only the humane society allowed me to shadow in street clothes, but then said to bring scrubs for being in the surgical suites.

 

[deleted606433]

Looks like I'm all set to shadow tomorrow evening! Any suggestions? I plan on wearing business casual attire and just going in with an open mind. I imagine I won't be permitted to engage in anything hands-on, but excited to watch and learn.

Congrats! I remember being super excited for my own first shadowing gig!

I agree with Fly Racing that you should probably call/email the clinic and ask directly, as preferred attire is going to vary between clinics. I've shadowed at a few where scrubs were definitely preferred, but I also worked at one that wanted business attire. There was one clinic I observed at where there wasn't really any sort of "dress code" for shadows/volunteers (as long as what you wore was within reason, of course, so no t-shirts or anything like that).

And, yes, ask lots and lots of questions! You may initially think of yourself as a bother, but many doctors love shadows that show a great interest in the work. It will probably seem a little awkward at first, especially since this is apparently your first time really getting into the field, but don't be afraid to make your desire to learn about the career known! As for the hands-on element... this will vary, but some clinics will allow you to do some more hands-on work if you stick with them long enough or show that you're knowledgeable and capable. It was from my first shadowing experience that I learned how to prep for surgeries, give medications, and monitor anesthesia, for example. Just keep at it, and enjoy!

 

[AndyQC]

Thank you all for your advice and support! I ended up shadowing for two shifts last night and I'm fairly exhausted, but I thought I'd share my initial thoughts:

- I have a whole new respect for both vet techs and DVMs. You guys work really, really hard.

- The two vets I shadowed last night seemed much more positive and optimistic about their career choice than the majority of the MDs I shadowed. Was not expecting that.

- There is more to learn than I possibly could have imagined. Overwhelming amount of information to process.

- Getting emergency care for a pet is extremely expensive.

- Routine procedures are much more difficult to perform on small animals than adults. Reminded me a little bit of peds shadowing.

- There is a certain amount of danger that comes with being a vet, although I guess the same could be said about working in an ED.

- I'm glad I wore scrubs.

I really enjoyed the experience for the most part and plan on going in again next week. However, dealing with the emotional aspect of vet med is going to be a major obstacle. I had no problem distancing myself from human suffering, but I found myself getting a little choked up at the clinic last night. Hopefully it will be something I can learn to deal with.

 

[dyachei]

Thank you all for your advice and support! I ended up shadowing for two shifts last night and I'm fairly exhausted, but I thought I'd share my initial thoughts:

- I have a whole new respect for both vet techs and DVMs. You guys work really, really hard.

- The two vets I shadowed last night seemed much more positive and optimistic about their career choice than the majority of the MDs I shadowed. Was not expecting that.

- There is more to learn than I possibly could have imagined. Overwhelming amount of information to process.

- Getting emergency care for a pet is extremely expensive.

- Routine procedures are much more difficult to perform on small animals than adults. Reminded me a little bit of peds shadowing.

- There is a certain amount of danger that comes with being a vet, although I guess the same could be said about working in an ED.

- I'm glad I wore scrubs.

I really enjoyed the experience for the most part and plan on going in again next week. However, dealing with the emotional aspect of vet med is going to be a major obstacle. I had no problem distancing myself from human suffering, but I found myself getting a little choked up at the clinic last night. Hopefully it will be something I can learn to deal with.

Not when you compare it to what we SHOULD be charging and uninsured human emergency medical care.

 

[that redhead]

I really enjoyed the experience for the most part and plan on going in again next week. However, dealing with the emotional aspect of vet med is going to be a major obstacle. I had no problem distancing myself from human suffering, but I found myself getting a little choked up at the clinic last night. Hopefully it will be something I can learn to deal with.

Working in an emergency hospital is probably more emotional in a visceral sense than regular general practice. Not that there aren't really sad/emotional things, but at least you have the balance of new puppy visits, wellness exams and more easily resolved problems. I would definitely suggest shadowing in a less high-intensity environment at some point if you do decide to go forward. Glad to see you took something away from the experience

 

[lailanni]

Working in an emergency hospital is probably more emotional in a visceral sense than regular general practice. Not that there aren't really sad/emotional things, but at least you have the balance of new puppy visits, wellness exams and more easily resolved problems. I would definitely suggest shadowing in a less high-intensity environment at some point if you do decide to go forward. Glad to see you took something away from the experience

Ditto. In ER med things generally stabilize or die. You don't get the balance of wellness exams and happy visits. People are upset about the situation, the cost, and sometimes the result. No client wants to make an ER trip, it's an emotional visit for most owners. You'll also see a lot more cost related euthanasia. It happens in general practice too, but by volume you see more of it in the ER. You may feel a lack of continuity - treating an animal and sending it back to their regular vet for rechecks, you might never get a patient update and just wonder what happened. I'm not saying emergency medicine is bad, just different with a unique set of challenges that can be very satisfying or more of an obstacle depending on your personality.

I also suggest visiting a general practice to get a well rounded feel of SA med. And if you're in a city, check out a few different general practices if you have the time or inclination. There are smaller 1-2 doctor clinics, much larger speciality clinics, and SA house call vets. All completely different flavors of medicine.

 

[BlackBox]

Hello -

I am currently in the process of applying to medical schools but have had no luck thus far. Throughout the essays and interviews, I've begun to wonder if medicine is really for me. I love that it is fast-paced and intellectually stimulating, but there are a number of aspects of the field that really turn me off.

I have begun to think about pursuing a career as a veterinarian. However, I know next to nothing about the application process. I hope that someone won't mind answering some very basic questions to help me along:

1) How many hours of clinical experience are expected?
2) Does clinical experience have to be volunteer work or is paid clinical experience (eg - vet tech) acceptable?
3) Is it a risky proposition to apply to brand new vet schools (eg - Midwestern in AZ)?
4) What are the career prospects after graduation?
5) Are DVM schools receptive to non-traditional (see: older) applicants?
6) Are DVM schools receptive to applicants from all majors?
7) Do any DVM schools besides Western - Pomona accept the MCAT?
8) Is research typically required?

Thank you for your feedback! I know that I am a complete newbie and I truly appreciate any insight.

Here is a link to my WAMC thread over in the pre-med forum. It describes my current situation and what my med school application looks like:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/38-mcat-3-6-gpa-what-went-wrong.1060019/

I wonder if it's a good idea to bring up the idea of pursing an MD. You don't want to look like Vet school is an alternative for you. While you can phrase things as an epiphany kinda thing, choose your words carefully. ADCOMs are wicked sharp- as I'm sure you know.

From looking at your previous thread in Pre Allo, you seem like a really strong candiate. Yes, you don't have research, but that isn't going to break your application. You wrote you applied to 14 schools. Your biggest hurdle may be your school choice. Too many state schools? Many CA residents (they're typcially very strong applicants) to compete with.

I wish you all the luck in making a decision. Just be certain you investigate why you chose medicine- why you're willing to leave it- and what vet med brings to you that you were missing in people med.

 

[that redhead]

I wonder if it's a good idea to bring up the idea of pursing an MD. You don't want to look like Vet school is an alternative for you. While you can phrase things as an epiphany kinda thing, choose your words carefully. ADCOMs are wicked sharp- as I'm sure you know.

From looking at your previous thread in Pre Allo, you seem like a really strong candiate. Yes, you don't have research, but that isn't going to break your application. You wrote you applied to 14 schools. Your biggest hurdle may be your school choice. Too many state schools? Many CA residents (they're typcially very strong applicants) to compete with.

I wish you all the luck in making a decision. Just be certain you investigate why you chose medicine- why you're willing to leave it- and what vet med brings to you that you were missing in people med.

The wicked sharp adcoms will see his ECs and probably assume he had been pre-med at one point; not addressing it would seem a bigger red flag (at least in my opinion) than discussing it. So long as he is able to address things like why he decided to switch, I don't see it being a huge hurdle.

 

[BlackBox]

The wicked sharp adcoms will see his ECs and probably assume he had been pre-med at one point; not addressing it would seem a bigger red flag (at least in my opinion) than discussing it. So long as he is able to address things like why he decided to switch, I don't see it being a huge hurdle.

His ECs are below. The only ones that would raise a red flag IMO is the shadowing. Volunteering is volunteering. Research is research. Work, work... He will also bolster these with volunteering and shadowing that involves clinical vet stuff. Removing 30 hours of primary care shadowing is MUCH easier than trying to explain a major shift in career focus.


Volunteering
300 hours as patient companion for MS charity organization
300 hours at community clinic in underserved area of NM

Shadowing
30 hours - primary care and neurology

Research
50 hours in exercise physiology lab (funding pulled and lost position midway through project)
Poster presentation at small conference

Work Experience
1000s of hours as physical therapy aide
1000s of hours as tech support for software company
(Self-supported throughout college)

Miscellaneous
Hobbies - writing (published in several major magazines)
Honors - Dean's List and award for community service
LORs - very strong; knew my professors very well
PS - went through 8-10 drafts; one interviewer said that it was one of the best he had seen

 

[that redhead]

His ECs are below. The only ones that would raise a red flag IMO is the shadowing. Volunteering is volunteering. Research is research. Work, work... He will also bolster these with volunteering and shadowing that involves clinical vet stuff. Removing 30 hours of primary care shadowing is MUCH easier than trying to explain a major shift in career focus.

I guess you'd need to see the stats of many veterinary applicants...it would stand out to me personally and I'm not an adcom. Sure, with more vet stuff thrown in he could swing it, but I think removing activities to cover up a previous career path is dishonest and I think he'd stand out more as a changed-his-mind applicant provided he can explain it well. People decide to enter vet med "late" plenty, and many applicants have had a full career in another field. I think vet schools tend to be more sympathetic to a story than medical schools, though.

 

[BlackBox]

I guess you'd need to see the stats of many veterinary applicants...it would stand out to me personally and I'm not an adcom. Sure, with more vet stuff thrown in he could swing it, but I think removing activities to cover up a previous career path is dishonest and I think he'd stand out more as a changed-his-mind applicant provided he can explain it well. People decide to enter vet med "late" plenty, and many applicants have had a full career in another field. I think vet schools tend to be more sympathetic to a story than medical schools, though.

I would only call it dishonest if it was done as a backup plan, not necessarily when it's done to craft a cohesive application. People change their minds all the time. I for one finished my PhD and am going on to the MD. I had A LOT of explaining to do. Maybe this is just a med school ADCOM-specific hangover with me. I do think the med school admissions process it heartless- some might say soulless, even

 

[MassDVMMPH]

There was a girl in my vet school class (mid 1990's) that dropped out of vet school after 3 semesters because she decided that she would rather do medicine on people rather than animals. The medical school at the University of Iowa snapped her up - she had done quite well in her vet school classes, which I'm sure helped a lot, but they didn't seem to mind that she had been interested in vet med before changing her mind.

 

[that redhead]

I would only call it dishonest if it was done as a backup plan, not necessarily when it's done to craft a cohesive application. People change their minds all the time. I for one finished my PhD and am going on to the MD. I had A LOT of explaining to do. Maybe this is just a med school ADCOM-specific hangover with me. I do think the med school admissions process it heartless- some might say soulless, even

Whenever I read threads over in pre-allo I think the admissions process is a lot more unforgiving. Don't envy you that!

 

[BlackBox]

Whenever I read threads over in pre-allo I think the admissions process is a lot more unforgiving. Don't envy you that!

It's the student population as well. It's tense. I feel like it's made me extra paranoid about applications.

 

[that redhead]

It's the student population as well. It's tense. I feel like it's made me extra paranoid about applications.

Absolutely. I know there are people who've had bad experiences with fellow pre-vets but by and large we seem to be a pretty easy-going group. Seems like the prestige factor is much higher for medicine.

 

[BlackBox]

Absolutely. I know there are people who've had bad experiences with fellow pre-vets but by and large we seem to be a pretty easy-going group. Seems like the prestige factor is much higher for medicine.

whereas the normal factor is higher for vet med.

 

[AndyQC]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone.

I sent out a few e-mails to local clinics today. There are actually a couple of Banfield Pet Hospital locations nearby and they seem to welcome students for job shadowing.

I have mixed feelings about addressing my past. On the one hand, I like the idea of framing my decision to pursue vet med simply as a transition from one type of medicine to another. On the other hand, though, it is probably naive to assume that adcom members won't be suspicious of my motives.

I have generally gotten along well with my fellow MD applicants. However, there is definitely a "song-and-dance" factor that is a little bit off-putting. Even at the pre-interview events, it seemed that everybody had their guard up a little bit. For a few, it came across as somewhat disingenuous. I can't comment on DVM applicants, but thus far you have all been extremely helpful and charming.

 

[lailanni]

I started my undergrad as pre-med. I had 300 hours of human hospital volunteering on my application, along with various human medicine community service projects. It was early on (late high school, early college) and no one asked.

However, when I did apply I had a significant amount of SA hours plus wildlife, shelter med, some LA and some animal related research, so it was pretty clear where my interests were.

I think if someone has a solid vet med experience base, they won't care where you came from. It's not uncommon to have people coming to vet med from completely different careers. One guy in my class was a semi truck driver. Another a geologist. They were all able to build experience and get into vet school. It's not too far fetched for a MD - DVM switch to happen.

 

[AndyQC]

Just wanted to pop in and thank everyone for helping guide me on this journey.

I ended up shadowing a number of vets and ultimately decided that it's not for me. I love working with animals and I experienced some incredibly rewarding moments that will stick with me for a lifetime. However, I don't think I could ever get used to the emotional aspects of vet med. I don't know why I'm wired this way, but being in the same room while people said goodbye to their pets was much more devastating than anything I've seen in 5+ years of hospital volunteering. In the few dozen hours I spent shadowing, I saw much more tragedy than I had expected and it really made me realize that I'm not cut out for this line of work.

I do have a new respect for everything you guys do. You work just as hard as any of the MDs I shadowed. On top of that, you have to have a broader knowledge base. It's a shame that many of you will not be fairly compensated in your future careers. Even the most successful vet that I shadowed wasn't pulling in a fraction of what he deserved (IMHO). I sincerely hope that things improve in coming years without compromising the quality of vet school graduates. To put it bluntly, you guys work way too hard and take on way too much debt to get paid anything less than six figures.

Thanks again for everything. Wish you all the best.

 

[twelvetigers]

Just wanted to pop in and thank everyone for helping guide me on this journey.

I ended up shadowing a number of vets and ultimately decided that it's not for me. I love working with animals and I experienced some incredibly rewarding moments that will stick with me for a lifetime. However, I don't think I could ever get used to the emotional aspects of vet med. I don't know why I'm wired this way, but being in the same room while people said goodbye to their pets was much more devastating than anything I've seen in 5+ years of hospital volunteering. In the few dozen hours I spent shadowing, I saw much more tragedy than I had expected and it really made me realize that I'm not cut out for this line of work.

I do have a new respect for everything you guys do. You work just as hard as any of the MDs I shadowed. On top of that, you have to have a broader knowledge base. It's a shame that many of you will not be fairly compensated in your future careers. Even the most successful vet that I shadowed wasn't pulling in a fraction of what he deserved (IMHO). I sincerely hope that things improve in coming years without compromising the quality of vet school graduates. To put it bluntly, you guys work way too hard and take on way too much debt to get paid anything less than six figures.

Thanks again for everything. Wish you all the best.

We appreciate that. Thank you! Glad you figured things out for yourself.